Charge Temperatures For Home Coffee Roasters

[@twhdvm]

Mike, I am new to roasting (2 months) and am so glad to come across your channel. I wish I had discovered this hobby a long time ago but never late than never. This episode is very eye-opening for me. I really need to rethink my charge temps as my roasting method of choice right now is the Whirley Pop. I’ve roasted some pretty good coffee but know I can get better. I like the Whirkey Pop because it is very hands on and really requires use of all the senses - it’s been a good learning tool. But my issue has been some roasting defects in a few batches and I think my charge temp is big reason why. But I thank you for producing exceptional content that is applicable to so many different roast methods. Blessings.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Todd, thank you for your message. If you like hands on, and want to reduce roasting defects, consider the HIVE coffee roaster. I've done several videos using this on my channel. It can give you great control and even roasts.

[@keithstehling3586]

Great analogy Mike.... I'm overloaded with a lot of info both via books and video's such as yours. Looking forward to setting up the roaster when it arrives next week and start experimenting.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad it was helpful! What roaster are you getting ?

[@2ofeachmom426]

Very clear and concise!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thank you for the encouragement!

[@samirmodi3390]

Thanks your teaching is so much better.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Samir, thank you for watching!

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

Great video and example. My M1 arrived in Canada today and scheduled for delivery tomorrow (Friday) but it hasn’t cleared customs yet - maybe another day or two but I’m excited.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That's exciting. When you get your roaster and begin to use it you should do some seasoning roasts. I talked about this when i got the Kaleido M2. It is a great opportunity to burn some beans and learn how your roast performs. Things to watch are event temperatures like dry, first crack, and drop. Other things to pay attention would be charge temperature and how long it takes to dry based on your power settings.

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you. I feel I am ready!

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

I’ve started trying higher charge temps on my M1. I was mostly using a 160C charge temp and that easily got me through dry and first crack but I was running out of steam to get to the end temp I am aiming for, so I’ve recently been using 175C as a charge and that seems to help with the momentum. I just wish I could drink more coffee so I can keep roasting more beans.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Edward. I'm glad you are enjoying your M1. One way to ensure you are able to have enough momentum through the roast is to use your ROR scale on the right side of the Artisan graph during the roast and then monitor your ROR number just above that where Artisan displays your BT, ET, and ROR. When you use these tools, reference a ROR you have set in your mind (like 20) and have that be your target ROR at the dry event. Depending on your roast level you are aiming for, select an ROR you would use to enter First Crack (like 12) that will be high enough to help you move through development at the rate of increase you need to finish the roast within your end time and temperature. This points act as "momentum reference points" during your roast to help you keep on track. Of course your numbers will be different than what I suggested but I hope that makes sense. Let me know if that helps.

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

I was just considering a change in my charge temps today... then I see this video pop up.

[@johnsnow3602]

Same here 😀

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching the video. I hope you found it helpful. Timing is everything haha

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Absolutely! I enjoy all your videos and have gone then to be helpful. The increase I made in charge temp made a massive difference in the speed of the roast and also caused the seeds to be more color consistent (outer color/ground color). I was roasting a very soft Brazil. I was told this seed needs a higher initial temp to get the center of the seed cooked properly. Sure enough. Exactly what it needed.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

charge temps are variable based on so many factors including bean density. As a general rule, low density beans are prone to roast defects like scorching and tipping. Ultimately the result will be visible in the cooling tray after the roast as well as in the cup. I'm glad the Brazilian is working for you!

[@shanewilson2152]

Hi Mike, enjoy your video again.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks again Shane!

[@knacks21]

Greetings from germany. Very well done.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello @ J. HM Thanks for watching my video and the encouraging comment. What type of roaster do you use?

[@knacks21]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hello Mike, i started 1 y ago with a Hottop KN-8828B-2K+ and roasted some samples for my own and friends. soon i began to dive deeper in the roasting process. i implemented artisan and tried hit different roasts. now i am proud owner of a bideli 1,5 Kg gas roaster and therefore i am seeking much more knowledge about #roasting equipment performance. it is very interessting to experience the difference between the behaviour ( thermal load, charging temp etc.) within small sample electric roasters and medium size gas roasters. it is like cooking your stake in a pan or on a BBQ :) i was inspired by you roller coaster analogy here :) yours is the first channel to fit my needs exactly ! keep on

[@DougBrownVancouver]

Since I started watching your videos I now pay attention to the three phases and meticulously track 30 second temps in Roastmaster on my iPhone. I have a Behmor 1600+ with 300 roasts according to Roastmaster :) I roast outdoors and we dialogued with you on this on another video, that you have ambient temps in your basement and I'm outdoors in Vancouver, roasting currently in the 50Fs. I surround my unit with styrofoam now and it's way better. Since I've been recording I know for sure that a lower charge temp (

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing Doug. I’m not sure how to explain what you experienced. There are a few variables which could be influencing your test, namely the top temps you attain during dry phase, when those occur, and does the fan turn on during dry for either of these roasts. In all my learning about roasting coffee, I have never heard of a deal on the bean, preventing higher temps from penetrating the bean. That doesn’t mean you are wrong, I’ve just not heard that before. Tenets are some unique circumstances the behmor presents by its design. There isn’t that much conduction going on because of the drum design. Also. The radiant heat is a huge factor during dry. Sure you don’t have a hot drum surface influencing the roast but you do have a very intense heat radiating the bean mass. Those will have an imp t on your roast time and dry time. Lastly we didn’t talk about how bean moisture and what happens with high charge temps. We can save that for a future conversation. I think this article is helpful and scientific in that it just isn’t opinion. The author references his sources. Check out that article and let me know what you think. tastingcoffee.com/papers-full/a-thermodynamic-approach-to-roasting-parameters-and-stages-of-roast/

[@DougBrownVancouver]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks so much and I'll read up. You've been very helpful, particularly with providing some simple rules of thumb on the three phases. The consistent criticism of the Behmor is that you just can't see the bean color so I wait for a whiff of caramelizing beans to tell me when browning begins. I used to record 1C as the start of consistent cracks, but after watching you I now record 1C as the absolute first crack and then aim for 17-20% of time for the development phase. Maybe it's better suited or your Behmor videos, but the 7:30 afterburner/exhaust (1 lb. setting) interrupts the steady B-temp and ROR trend. The ROR calcs get thrown out the window more or less after 7:30. So I just follow your advice and hit the D button around 9:00 to create conduction, and record 1C as the start of the Dev phase. I know the bean temp is increasing, but there's no way to track that after 7:30. Any comments on that? Thanks again. I buy in 30lb batches to reduce my green bean cost and am using Honduran Marcala at the moment, so I really feel like I know those beans. I got very familiar with Sumatran before, and I'll probably go with an African bean next time. Bit by bit I'm going to cover the world!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Doug. Yea, that article is helpful as we try and understand how different types of heat influence our beans. The Behmor does not really have airflow like a traditional drum roaster so bean movement using the drum is the primary way it receives convection heat. I could be wrong on that but I don’t see the afterburner fan creating much airflow BUT I have no proof of this. A comment about first crack. I measure first crack as the first series of cracks. There will always be outlier crack sounds before this, but first CRACKS is how I mark that event. Regarding lighting, the behmor is not great to monitor color. You can use an external led light or change the bulb in the roaster to an LED to improve your ability to determine color. Lastly, if you use the 1/2 pound setting the fan kicks on at 5 minutes AND this could be the perfect time to allow your temp to lower because you are near yellow. You can then compensate with p5 or p4 so your temps don’t drop too much. That’s just a thought. Plenty of people roast using the 1 pound setting as well.

[@DougBrownVancouver]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Great idea on the 1/2 lb setting to drop the temp during browning. My ambient roasting environment temp is still in the 50-60s and on the Behmor B-temp I can barely reach 300F, so I felt my chamber temp was already on the low side. Through winter and spring I don't use P3-4 like you do because I thought I would end up baking my beans, and at least one roast proved that so I leave P5 enabled now. As it warms up, I'll start P4 and P3 when I can hit 320 in after a few minutes. On 1C I chatted with a friend who's a commercial roaster and he said they mark it at the first pop of any kind, but previously like you I was waiting for a couple cracks per second. To get your suggested 15-20% development time I mark 1C as the first pop, and now know to let the Hondurans roast until the quiet period between 1C and 2C. My typical roast produces 1C around 12:00, I open the door a bit to prolong the crack to about 13:30 - 13:45 and then drop the beans at about 14:00, just before 2C. Development is then @ 18-20% and I'm pleased with the flavor. I read, and confirmed through trial that these particular beans benefit from at least City+ or Full City to fully develop their flavor. Anything less than 15% development time and they're still a touch grassy, kind of crying out for a little more caramelization.

[@richardameris190]

Hello Mike, I can't tell you how helpful your videos are to a novice roaster like myself. Do you have any suggestions on how to soak the coffee with an electric drum roaster like the Aillio Bullet. I am trying to master the charge temperatures and can't quite get my dry phase under 50% of my total times

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Richard - I would not recommend using a "soak" for the bullet. I use the "soak" with my Mill City 500 gram roaster. I can do this because the roaster has a lot of thick plate metal and the entire roasters absorbs the heat and acts as a heatsink. The Bullet and Kaleido roasters are not designed in this way. So, in order for you to get a shorter dry time you have several variables you can change in order to accomplish this: 1. Higher charge temp 2. Lower charge weight 3. lower airflow 4. Longer warm-up time 5. Higher power setting at charge and during dry event. Any combination of these changes will help shorten your dry time.

[@luigicollins3954]

Another great video, Mike. Since I roast using a Behmor, it seems about the only way I can have any control over charge temperature is maybe with pre-heating. I currently pre-heat to some extent (100 - 150 F, B temp), but sometimes I think my Drying Phase time is a little long. I might have to try maybe even a higher pre-heat temperature, especially for more dense beans. Exhaust air temperature on the Behmor (the A temperature) is not even available for me until after the vent opens (7:30 into the roast), and then it's actual value is somewhat questionable. Good information here Mike. I will definitely have to try something on upcoming roasts.

[@dg10890]

Fellow Behmor user here, and I agree. Pre-heating has, for me, been about the only way to consistently keep my first phase to ~5 minutes for my small batches (usually no more than 250 grams). I have settled on 200 B temp as being good for most beans I roast. My machine won't let me pre-heat beyond ~245 B temp without needing to cool down, but I know each Behmor has its own quirks with preheating.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great feedback and observations for the behmor users Lou and Dustin. I realize that some roasting equipment has it's limitations and I am glad to see some creativity to compensate. I think Dustin's pre-heat temp sounds pretty good. As for the fan and exhaust temp, your right, very questionable with the behmor. As far as airflow goes, drum speed can help a little with airflow. The lighter the load the more the beans should be able to fly. Also, the lighter the load the faster you will be able to make it through dry end :-)

[@luigicollins3954]

@@dg10890 Dustin, you give excellent advice! Most of my pre-heat (B) temps have been 150 F and one at 200 F. But after reading your reply, I decided to go to 250 F to see what effect if any it might have. I came out with my best roast ever. My previous dry phase times have averaged about 6 minutes, which I always thought was a little long. This latest roast (200 g Columbian) had a 250 F pre-heat and I got a dry phase time of 4:49 - more than a minute shorter than my average. The roast came out a beautiful light-medium, exactly where I wanted it, and it was wonderful in the cup. Thanks again for your input!

[@Wichard1969]

great help! thanks.. keep it up!!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Richard, thank you for the encouragement. I'm glad my videos have been helpful for you! What are you roasting with?

[@skyt54]

Your videos are really good. I like your, how should I say, gentle way of conveying information in a down to earth way. I have a Quest M3 electric roaster. It is my third roaster. I made a metal base for it with a round cooling bin with fans underneath and a rotating arm to move the coffee for faster cooling. I use Artisan software with a bean probe and an environmental temp probe. I guess that would qualify as an exhaust temp as it is outside the drum. As far as soaking goes, if I would turn the heat off for a bit, it takes more time for a heating element to come back up to temperature than your gas powered roaster. So can one do that with an electric roaster? I am contemplating getting a Mill City Roaster like yours if I can figure out a place in my wood working and metal working shop to put it. In winter the temperature in my shop runs around 40 to 50 degrees unless I heat the shop with my wood stove. Would 50 degrees affect how a Mill City roaster would work or would it be better if I heated the shop up to a higher temperature?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thank you for your kind words. I’m glad my video has been helpful for you. Soaking isn’t necessary. It is a method I use with the mill city BUT don’t use with the Kaleido M2 which is electric. Ambient (room temperature) can affect roast times. How long do your roasts take? Total roast time? What capacity weight are you using ( how much coffee are you roasting per roast? Sometimes taking a slightly different approach can address your problem. If your roasts take too long, consider roasting fewer beans per batch. That will give you a head start. If you can increase the heat in your shop to 60 degrees? Pre- heating for a longer period of time will help your roast times. How long are you pre-heating? I would suggest you preheat your roaster to 15 degrees above your drop temp. Then, after about 20-30 minutes of preheating, set your temp to your charge temp. When you have reached that temp, charge and set your power to whatever you use to reach your target dry time. As far as the mill city roaster goes, that is a lot of money. I’m sure it is a good roaster and the double wall drum will really help you in the colder months. If you are in the market for a 500 gram, have you considered the bullet or Kaleido M6 as an option? The Kaleido has carbon fiber heating elements and it heats up fast. It is also quick responding to temperature changes. Just thought I would mention that. These roasters cost a lot less than the mill city.

[@MrTubeman007]

Love your vids and subscribed, as a very new comer to the roasting game, it would be very helpful if when you talk stages to give a rough ball park number to your times and temps. This would give starting newbies like me, to have some kind of goal to aim for, tweaking can come later as we gain more experience. Or even if you made up a PDF to download with the time stages + or - and temps for those stages + or -. This would be so helpful. I won't leave without saying thank you for all your time and effort on these videos I find them fantastic.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for the encouraging comments, subscribing and your suggestion. I understand why you might find that helpful. Because we use different roasting machines that in itself won't work. Plus, different types of coffee's, batch weights, bean size, roasting levels and much more, the times and temps will vary. A great way to start would be to find some videos I have done using a roaster that is similar to yours. Watch the times and temps for that video and you could use that as a starting point. You should also experiment with your roaster. See how long it takes to get your coffee to the end of the dry phase (when it turns yellow). This time will vary based on how much coffee you are roasting as well as a charge temperature. This will help you formulate a total roast profile based on you roasters performance. Consider watching "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" video as this talks about a great starting point as far as phase percentages. I give a couple of examples there. Hope my response was helpful. What type of roaster are you using?

[@johnsnow3602]

I was about to do some roastings today and thinking to raise my charge temperature and got this video notice. What a timing! I used to use 385 F as the charge temperature, but the Artisan software recorded charge temperature around 367. And the dry time is close to 5 min or longer with 140g beans and Hottop roaster. I got some feedback from friends and family that the coffee is kind of flat, even I have not too bad phase time distributions but around 12 min total roasting time. That is why I want to try to test higher charge temperature. I have a feeling that the DE temperature or final drop time temperature is also a profile impact factor. Not sure its correct. If so, wish you can give some your insides. Thank you again for your videos. They are very valuable to our beginners.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi John, I would encourage you to try a higher charge temp It will shorten your dry phase BUT watch for roasting defects & that extra momentum. You will fly through the middle phase. So, since you going to try that, try to target your middle phase time for about 3:45 for more flavor. That means you will have to be careful and monitor your rate of rise during this phase. If you have too much momentum, it will be hard for you to lower your rate of rise enough to lengthen the middle phase and it sounds like that is what you need to do. Also, watch for steep decents in your rate of rise as well as flat spots. These will impact flavor development. In Artisan, when you mark dry end, watch up near the top of the screen where the predicted time appears for the middle phase. Notice the lower the rate of rise, the longer the predicted time gets...... that is your number to watch to try and hit the 3:45.......... Let me know what happens and if that makes a difference. Also!!!!! Be sure not to turn your air up too much after you have lowered your heat or you will see your rate of rise drop quickly.... Hope that is helpful.

[@johnsnow3602]

Hi, Mike, I did 4 batches of 150g, 2 regulars and 2 decafs for my wife. I am happy with the 2 regulars, and my son said it’s better than the previous one, where one of them is the same beans, although I did not achieve the browning time you recommended. If you don’t mind, I’d like to share the Artisan logs with you. Thank you.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@johnsnow3602 KZbin doesn't offer an easy way to direct message. Please go to my KZbin "About" page, scroll down to the facebook link and you will be taken to facebook where you can message me though the Virtual Coffee Lab Page where you can attach images.. If that doesn't work, we can try and figure something out.

[@johnsnow3602]

Mike, just sent 3 logs via your Facebook message. Thank you.

[@stevekatush2499]

Hi, I am using CROPSTER software in probat 5kgs, please I would like to know when I load green beans in the whopper which one is considered as a CHARGE TEMPERATURE Is it exhaust temperature or bean temperature? That will guide to release the green beans in the roasting chamber (roasting drum).

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Steve, sorry for the slow reply. I was traveling. I personally use the BT but I know there are roasting professionals who use the ET as their charge temp. I don't have a strong opinion either way as long as your setup (between batch protocol) is consistent. For example, air, charge weight, and drum speed are the same settings at charge from roast to roast. What have you been using with your roaster?

[@stevekatush2499]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you

[@andreamunari5800]

TY

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

You are welcome :-)

[@ajk2749]

Thanks again for a video, Mike. It's been very useful to me. I'm learning with my Hottop -2K+ with which I've roasted 21 batches so far; 7 roasts since I upgraded to -2K+ and Artisan software. The Hottop does not have an exhaust temperature but it does have environment temp. On my last roast, that temp shows a slow increase all the way through the roast starting just after the turning point. I've been charging at 350° but leaving the heat on 100% until the bean temp hits 300°. My dry end has been occurring in less than 5 minutes, usually around 300°. I've been happy with the coffee but I'm still trying to see if I can get improvements. I increase the fan speed at various stages throughout the roast starting at charge. I'll raise the charge temp little by little to see what happens. My dry phase has been less than 50% of the total roast time, but I'd like to drag out the middle phase a little longer. My last roast middle phase was 2:39 minutes, or 27.3% of the roast. In either case, this coffee is better than the canned stuff from the grocery store!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Adrian, Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you have the momentum to get a great roast. I would add another minute to your middle phase. That means you are going to have to slow down your roast (lower your rate of rise) in that middle phase to stretch it out. 32-35% might be interesting to try. I think you will see more flavor development. Are you able to monitor rate of rise? I'm curious what your highest ROR is during dry and then what your ROR is at first crack and then when you drop the beans. Please let me know if you.

[@ajk2749]

@@VirtualCoffeeLabThank you, Mike. I could not figure out how to post a screen shot of my Artisan graph. Perhaps I could increase the fan speed during the dry phase to try lowering the ROR. It was 20%. During the dry phase, the ROR is highest just after the turning point @ over 40° and drops to 24° @ dry end. At first crack it's 16° and when I drop the beans it's at 12°. Thanks again.

[@garygardens]

Good video, Mike. Charge temperature is a tricky one. I spent a lot of time experimenting until I found a good range for my roaster. I don't have exhaust temp readings but it sounds like that would be most useful. Thanks for all the good information!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Gary, I'm surprised that the Ailio Bullet doesn't have an exhaust temp probe. I'm curious to hear what your "range" is. I forgot if you are using a consistent batch size, is it 1 lb or 2lb?

[@garygardens]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab There's been talk of Ailio adding an exhaust temp probe but I don't know if I'd be able to retrofit one or not. I normally roast in about 540 gram batches or just about one pound, mainly because that amount will last me ten days to two weeks. Depending on the bean, I'll preheat to between 210 and 230 degrees Celsius ( 410-446 Fahrenheit). That's likely higher than you do with your gas roaster, I guess electric behaves a differently than gas although I don't know the physics on that.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@garygardens - Sorry I missed this message Gary. Yea, I rely on the exhaust probe to know how much energy I have banked. If my exhaust temp is close to my bean temp, I have no horsepower to push up my ROR. I preheat to about 380-400 degrees, then after the preheat, let it fall to about 350 and then blast the heat up to 380, cut the power and charge the roaster. That gives me the momentum to soak and then get my drying phase moving along nicely. I've been having some difficulty lately with my gas control so I get some wobbly ROR near and after first crack. Trying to figure that one out....

[@Blackcrowking7]

Thank you King Mike

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I'm no king but thank you for watching my video. I am glad my content has been helpful for you.

[@cjhacker23]

Thank you for all of this amazing content! As a new home roaster using a Quest M6, I have watched most of your videos that focus on the basic skills. But I was hoping to see sometime in the future a video dedicated to roasting on a Quest, the way you have a video on roasting with the Behmor. Is that something you are planning?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@cjhacker23, thanks for your message and watching my videos. The Quest M6 is a totally manual drum roaster right? I looked at it online at it is a 1,300 dollar roaster. While I would love to roast on a Quest, it just isn't possible because of cost. The good news is the principles I talk about in most of my videos apply to your roaster as well. The video I am putting out about the Behmor this week includes some really helpful tips for Quest, Kaldi, Hive, Bullet, really any drum roaster and even many air roasters. Have you watched my "coffee roasting esentials" playlist? That offers some great tips you can apply to your roaster. The video I have this week shows me manually writing down my times and temperatures so I can monitor my roast progress and determine my roasting phases. It is a video that will applies to most manual roasting. Sorry I'm not able to purchase a Quest M6.

[@cjhacker23]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab In my ideal future for your channel, I would love to see you join Patreon, which might help fund the purchase of the various roasters that you say people ask you about. You could roast with them for say a month, put it through its paces, do a video how-to with the roaster, and then do a "give away" lottery of the roaster to your Patreon supporters. James Hoffman does something similar on his channel with various brewing and roasting equipment that he reviews.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@cjhacker23 If I were a full time youtuber that might be a possibility. I have a full-time job and I'm basically maxed right now with the amount of time I devote to the channel. I have earled a little money from people who have bought items from the links to products I have used for roasting and I used that money to buy the small hand Nuvo roaster I had on a while back. Currentlly I have a drum roaster, hive, nuvo, behmor and popcorn popper. These roasting devices cover most of the roasting device types so the principles I talk about can be applied to similar roasters. I don't have a "real" air roaster so that might be on my horizon for a purchase, like the one Sweet Marias is offering. This could provide similar concepts for roasting on a genie cafe, freshroast etc... Thanks again for the encouraging comments and suggestions and for watching my videos.

[@erharddinges8855]

What is the right MOMENTUM: that is the question ET = exhaust temp. for control of a roast becomes more and more interesting for me. But it seems to be useful only, when the probe is well placed. May be the best location is not the exhaust but the beanfree space within the drum near to the front plate. It shows how much and how quick energy is transmitted to the beans. To keep ET between 200 -230 °C may be a good advice for roasting successfully. Would like to hear of your experiences.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Erhard, Different roasting styles will require different momentum. Roasting for Espresso for example can be done a few different ways. One method is to have a lower momentum, lower rate of rise and slower decent. The main roasting profile I use has a pretty consistent exhaust temp during most of the roast. Once I get to dry end and back off my heat, I seem to be about 450 F or 232 C until I get into first crack and then i lower the temp more. As far as my exhaust temp, i have mine placed in the drum, above the center of the drum away from the bean mass. I have an interest in monitoring the exhaust temp via artisan but have not set that up yet. I hope to do that sometime in the future.

[@erharddinges8855]

Too low or too high until yellow is very often my failure. Seems there is no hard data for that except experience!?

[@AllGroundsCoffee]

Hi, how do i preheat the roaster in order to have my ET higher than BT before i drop my green coffee to the drum. When i preheat the roaster at 100% heat power, usually the BT and ET will have the same temperature. If i would like to lower down my BT, then ET go down too. Any suggestion on how to keep the ET while lowering down the BT? Thanks. BTW, i am using Kaleido M6.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I have not been using that technique with the Kaleido because of the SV (set value) feature. On my mill city, I could bower about 5 degrees below my charge temp, then increase my power a little to begin climbing toward the charge temp and by doing that, the ET was about 25f higher. The Kaleido is plenty powerful where you shouldn’t need to do that but experiment and see what happens.

[@OmarAlAbdulAziz]

Please try using Celsius. The majority do.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your suggestion Omar. I will try and keep that in mind for future videos.

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Have you ever tried to run your machine at full airflow and optimum drum speed, only adjusting the burner throughout the whole roast? Wondering if this is possible with a machine like yours. Can you remind me what machine you're working on?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I have a Mill City 500 gram roaster. It has a pretty powerful fan so if I had it on max I would not be able to roast. All of the heat would get sucked out. That is an interesting question, "what is the optimal airflow for my roaster?" So thinking about that, I would say it depends what phase of my roast I am in. I use a low airflow setting during the dry phase. Using a lighter and holding it up to the trier port, the suction is barely neutral and the flame is pulled ever so slightly towards the opening. Then just before I hit dry end I bump the air up a little to begin my transition to the browning phase. This helps bleed off a little of the momentum I have been building up in the dry phase. Then once i am in the browning (middle) phase I use a medium airflow setting. The lighter flame would lean towards the trier opening. Then at first crack I increase my airflow to a higher setting, causing the flame to be bent inward into the trier hole without it extinguishing. My drum speed is increased about a minute before dry end to increase airflow. I did a video on how i use air when i roast. That offers some extra info not mentioned here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWmlg5ycfKxjnqc

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Wow! Thanks so much for taking the time to give such a very descriptive response! Seems pretty consistent with the folks at Mill City roasters. Of course, the settings vary quite widely for them, depending on the coffee being roasted. I've had this idea floating around in my mind ever since watching a video with Rob Hoos explaining how he uses air flow. He was saying that he with each machine he works on, he attempts to use the max air flow and drum speed possible for the batch size, then adjusts the burner accordingly, in order to use the most convection possible. Then I saw another video by the roaster manufacturer, Genio, in which they compared 4 roasts. In one, they used max air and drum speed the whole roast. In another, they used minimum air flow and fan speed the whole roast. In another, they used varying air flow, varying drum speed. In the last one, they let the machine automate most of it. It was quite eye opening to see how a single machine could be used to produce the same curve in so many different ways. However, the max air flow and drum speed one finished earlier. I think because the dry phase was much shorter. I am studying as much as I can, as I plan to own and operate a roastery and cafe in the near future. I love your videos! Thanks so much for sharing!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great info @GoTellJesusSaves. I am using max airflow towards the end of my roast. Although the fan has more power and air to give, the "flame on the lighter" would be extinguished. So, the high setting i use is the "Max" airflow that will work with my roaster before I start sucking all of the heat out of my roaster. Starting a coffee roasting business is a big step. Soon you will see a video that talks about that.

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Yes. By max airflow, I'm referring to max usable airflow for the batch. Awesome! I'm always looking forward to watching your videos! I appreciate you taking the time to do what you do. It's helpful and thought provoking. Blessings to you as you continue on!

[@MikeFLHT]

Really enjoy your videos Mike. This is another good one. Even though I'm using a Behmor roaster, there's always some good information I can get from these. I have actually started watching my exhaust temperature more than my drum temperature. I feel like I'm getting more information that I can actually use. I am using Coffee Roaster Pro app to document my roasts. I'm getting some very interesting results by planning from the results of my previous roasts.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great point Mike. Comparing roasts is a real tangible way to figure out your roasts. So are you comparing event times? How long it takes to get to dry end or how long it takes to get to first crack based on your power settings? I looked at the app. Android only i think. I didn't find an iphone version. Looks pretty cool. Thanks for the kind comments. I'm glad my videos are helping.

[@MikeFLHT]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Coffee Roaster Pro is pretty cool. I am comparing event times like yellow, dry end, drum speed, 1C, etc. that can be timed. The app is adaptable and will let you add events that are not already in the app. It still likes a bit of information but a better way to track my roasts on the Behmor.

[@mhpjii]

Me as well. Excellent content.

[@mohammeds5605]

Thank you very much Mike, it's very informative 👍 I've a question Is charge temperature based on BT or ET And I only have XT (Exhaust located Temperature probe) and BT, so ..do I have to change the location of the Exhaust probe and move it on the front side ( because there is another hole on front side incase relocating the XT probe position) or just keep it at its current location in Exhaust and use it as ET ? Sorry for this long question 😅

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Mohammed. Remind me what roaster you have please. Also, do you have more than one probe? Ideally you would use both. I use the BT as my charge temp but also use exhaust temp to measure available heat

[@erharddinges8855]

Important item very clearly described

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching Erhard.

[@mgriff2000]

Hey everyone, do any of you have experience with fluidized bed style (AKA Popper)? I have a FR800 and I have a batch size of 200g. With that I can hit a 4 to 5 min dry time with charging at room temp and running full fan and the lowest power setting. I'm sort of thinking out loud, but my question is; If the goal is to obtain an even roast throughout the bean then wouldn't it make sense to dry the bean as slow as possible to minimize the delta temp between inside and outside? Has anyone tried a really fast dry, vs a really slow dry keeping the rest of the profile the same?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Matt, How far are you taking your roast (how dark). What type of coffee and what is the end result you are trying to accomplish? As far as roasting with an air roaster, I think you made a great point in the question you asked, and kind of answered your own question. One of the best indicators of how long you should dry is the evenness of the roast at the end of dry. Also, the flavor profile you are after will determine how long or short you want your phases. Here are a few things you might see if your heat is too high causing a shorter dry time: 1. Uneven roast at dry end 2. Under developed coffee (for fast roasts) Crack the bean open at the end of the roast after cooling and see if the color is consistent throughout the bean. If it is lighter on the inside than the out you might want to look how fast you are pushing the roast. If you drag your roast and have too long of a roast you risk flat coffee. If you are getting a nice even roast but your coffee is kind of boring and flat, you may have dragged the roast too long. Putting too much coffee in your roaster (over capacity) can't move the beans around will also cause an uneven roast. One thing we should consider is how much time to spend between dry end and first crack AND from first crack until drop. That is why i asked what type of roast you are shooting for. I have a playlist that talks about roasting essentials which include the topic of roast phases and how they influence your roast. Check them out if you are interested. kzbin.info/aero/PLe757VIiQrPYFTUF1g87lkkEymjQ40wMK

[@mgriff2000]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks for the quick reply! I am a light to medium roast guy. I have been doing about a 10:30min total roast. 4:30 min dry, 4 min Milliard, 2 min development. I just cut a bean open and the color is very even, so I guess I'm in the sweet spot. Yesterday I tried three profiles. 1. charge to 300F Dry took 4 mins. 2. Normal charge at 70F Dry took 4:30 mins. 3. charge at 70F and then soaked at 250F for 5 mins. Dry took about 11 mins. I'm excited to try it and see if I can taste any difference between them! I was wondering if other people with fluid bed roasters charge their system, or if they also start from room temp.

[@mgriff2000]

Update: The roast with the crazy long drying phase was easy to pick out during blind cupping it was very lacking all ways, acidity, sweetness, and bitterness. The high charge temp (300F) vs no charge temp (70F) were very similar. I'm reading through the coffee roasting companion right now and Scott mentioned it is possible to start with very high charge temps in a fluid bed roaster, so I think I'm going to give that a shot next. I'm still super confused about how purposely causing a large deltaT between the inner and outer of the bean during the beginning of the roast allows the bean to be at an even temperature at the end of the roast.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@mgriff2000 I will have to dig back into the roasting companion and see if he clarifies air roasting vs drum roasting. Charge temperatures for air roasting can make a difference but i'm thinking the focus is on a traditional drum roaster that uses conduction heat transfer during the dry phase. Maybe the extra heat from a prewarm on an air roaster will provide a slightly shorter dry. I think there is a limit to how short your dry phase can be and still allow even development. Density of the bean plays a big roll in the variable of how much heat..... OR ..... how short can my dry phase be without risking an uneven roast or roasting defects. Thanks for sharing. I'm interested to see what you find related to charge temps with air roasters.....

[@mgriff2000]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab ok last update, so to get up to a higher charge temp I had to lower my fan speed and set my power higher, but as soon as I put the beans in I had to take the fan speed back up to make sure the beans were still moving. So that roast shot through the drying phase super fast and I noticed tipping. I'm not excited about tasting that roast :( So the good news is I settled in on a charge temp and a batch to batch protocol. I set my system to the fan speed and power level I want to get my initial ror. I let it heat up until the temp stabilizes and then I put the beans in.

[@chefe2152]

Thank you soo much for this great content,for someone like me that just starting ,this is indispensable. I was wondering, are there any books that are worth buying to learn this and other topics more in depth? Have great day.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Yes, absolutely. I did a video with Rob Hoos, a respected coffee roasting expert. Here are some of his suggestions and I agree 100%. The links I have here are affiliate links. It doesn't cost you anything extra but I may receive a commission which supports this channel. Thanks for watching my videos Chef. Rob Hoos, author of "Modulating the flavor profile of coffee" - amzn.to/3fmboVb Paid Classes Rob Offers - hoos.coffee/classes Book recommended by Rob - Coffee Roasting Best Practices - amzn.to/3rPuWUL The Coffee Roaster's Companion - amzn.to/2PzxMQn Air Flow Video with Rob Hoos - "Chasing The Wind: Airflow In Coffee Roasting" - kzbin.info/www/bejne/foSVpIuopMmWl9k Can you taste the roasting system - Ann Cooper - www.roastmagazine.com/shop/backissues/mayjune19/roast_article_CanYouTasteRoasting.html

[@chefe2152]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you very much, much appreciate it

[@douggrant1184]

Glad I discovered your videos Mike. Although I've been home roasting for many years, I realized I was roasting by "habit" and managing every roast pretty much the same way. You've inspired me to monitor my roasts more closely, and experiment with trying different adjustments throughout the roast. I have the same roaster as yours (Mill City 500g), and I use Artisan software. Question re: charge temp: Do you use the temp as recorded on Artisan BT or do you use the PID temp on the roaster? I've heard conflicting views on that - and as you know, the temperatures are quite a bit different between the two.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Doug, fellow MC 500 Gram brother!!!! Glad you found my channel. I know Mill City says to use the PID for charge temp, and I have even seen them roast entirely with the PID and no artican software. I honestly think it is a matter of opinion or what you are use to. The ultimate "tell" is what happens to your dry phase time. Was your charge too high or too low??? At least that is where my thinking is at this time. In the end you pick one and stick with it. So, I use Artisan for all my temps including charge excluding the warmup which doesn't really count. When I am ready to roast, I turn on Artisan, let me roaster ramp down about 30 degrees below my charge target charge temp, then turn on the gas to about 60% power, let the temps climb to my charge temp, and then charge the roaster. That way, I have a really high exhaust temp which I allow to bleed off during my 1 minute soak. Doing this puts my at a 4:30 - 5:00 minute dry phase. My range for charge temp will be anywhere from 370-385 depending on the density, bean size and process type. Hope that info was helpful.

[@douggrant1184]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks Mike, this is more good info for me. I am going to try your method for achieving the charge temp. Until now, I've always heated the roaster above 400 on Artisan, then shut the gas and let the temp drift down to 400, dropped the beans, continued to keep the gas off for 1 minute (soak), then turned gas on to approx 80% until dry end. I never thought to start lower and ramp the temp UP to desired charge temp - but it makes sense. FYI, I'm using propane - my max gas pressure is approx 27 on the roaster gauge - so I set the pressure to 22 for the drying phase, then gradually step it down during browning/development based on the ROR readings. I also have questions for you re: air/exhaust fan settings throughout the roast - do you have a video on this topic?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I use 3 settings on my fan. Use the lighter trick that Mill City promotes. on my roaster low, medium and high are 32, 42, 50. I don't think i have a video that talks about my settings. I do have a video on air...... "5 ways to use air when roasting coffee". My max gas pressure is 1.7 Kpa. I run my dry phase at 1.0

[@mhpjii]

Mike, thanks for this. Does "soaking the beans" mean the beans should be moving or simply sitting in the heat?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Moving..... If we are talking drum roasting, I use a soak method for many of my roasts. This is where I get the roasting environment to temp and then put the beans in (charge) and then let the beans begin to absorb the heat. My soak times range anywhere from 15 seconds to 1 minute depending on the beans, how much coffee i am roasting, density and the roasting profile. Beans sitting in a hot chamber will be touching and sitting on a hot surface and could get scorched. It is always best to keep beans constantly moving.

[@mhpjii]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab If charge temperature is as crucial as you've taught, how can beans absorb so much heat in such a short period? Secondly, what is your recommendation for a charge temperature in a skillet roasting environment? 300°F?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@mhpjii Depending on your roasting device, the type of beans you are roasting and the style of your roast will determine what temperatures to use. Yea, there is a limit as to how much heat a bean can take before it is not roasting evenly. As heat is applied to the bean, it radiates towards the center. I think it was Joe Morocco who did many of the Mill City videos who explained that moisture is pushed towards the center of the bean, protecting the embryo. If too much heat is applied, the outer part of the bean gets more roasted than the inside of the bean. I think I had a little of that happen on a recent roast. So I think you are right, there is a limit to how much heat a bean can handle to get an even roast. At the same time, we don't want a long dry either. This long dry time impacts our overall roast time, momentum and flavor profile. So, there is a "range" that we use based on our roast styles. This will also depend on our roasting devices. A hot air roaster more than likely won't be soaking and their dry phase and total roast time are generally shorter than non-hot air roasters. For a skillet and any other roasting device, scorching is always a concern. That is why i mentioned keeping the beans moving around on my previous message. I have roasted on the Hive, which is a pan like roaster with a cover BUT it isn't a skillet. By roasting environment, are we still talking a frying pan uncovered? Is the temp you are asking about the temp of the steel? I've pre-warmed my hive to as much as 350 degrees. I don't know what the temp of the hive metal itself is, the temp reading is from the internal temp of the hive read from the probe, which ends up in the bean mass once you charge the roaster.

[@mhpjii]

@@VirtualCoffeeLabThank you, Mike! Yes, I'm forcing myself to roast only with a skillet (uncovered for now) so I can really learn this process. I'm roasting either Ethiopian Sidama or a Columbian Arabica. My question is: what should be the skillet temp when introducing the beans (as measured with my digital thermometer)?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That's exciting. I'm hoping to do a video on that. I'm interested to hear how this goes. Total guess........If you start with a skillet temp of 300 degrees and then keep the beans moving, see how long that roast takes. You are going to need to adjust your heat along the way and the change will be slow. Let me know what happens.

[@saudmalik4379]

Sir hi what will be my charge temp.in 5 kg or 10 kg roaster? Thanks in advance

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Saud, charge temp will depend on your roaster, the probes, type of beans, roasting environment temps and much more. Unfortunately I am not able to tell you what your charge temp should be. Sorry about that. A good way for you to determine a good charge temp would be to see how long it takes to get to the end of the dry phase (yellow). Your target range should be between 4-6 minutes. You want to do this without causing roasting defects. Too high temps will cause roasting defects like tipping and scorching.

[@BCFFontana]

Hey Mike, thanks so much really enjoy the videos. I recently moved from 6 years on Behmor to a 1K electric toper. I have heard electric is slower than gas for energy rise. What are your thought? I have been told and currently have a charge temp at 194C. thanks for input.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your comment and question. Which model do you have, the air (optical)? Generally speaking, some popular electric drum Roasters like the Hottop or the behmore tend to be a little underpowered with the exception of the bullet. They tend to be slower to respond to temperature changes. As far as charge temperatures go., A good way to determine the best temperature would be to determine how long it takes for you to get from charge to the end of the dry phase / yellow. If it’s a drum roaster then a good target dry phase would be about five minutes long. If you were not able to achieve this with the horsepower that your roaster provides then choose a higher charge temperature. So yes 194C takes 5:15 then try 197C and Watch how that influences your dry phase time. Let me know if you have other questions related to this.

[@BCFFontana]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Sorry forgot I have a 2015 Toper Cafemino

[@BCFFontana]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks for your input. appreciate it! Take care!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

looks like a great roaster.

[@pavelkaiser6787]

Hello and thank you for your teaching. I always learn from you. BUT I have a Behmor 2020 SR and the temperatures there go up to 285 °F when using their programs P1 to P5. I am not able to go higher and still wonder what is the difference in the final coffee then. I suppose you are roasting for espresso and that needs higher temperatures? Can you help me understand why the Behmor does not allow for higher temperatures? Thank you a lot! P.S.: I am preheating my Behmor to 90 °C (194 °F) as your friend recommened in one of the videos.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Pavel, that is a great question. Generally speaking, most people charge their roaster with temperatures ranging from 320 to 425. In my example of "400 degrees" I just picked a number. It was only meant as an example so we could talk about temperatures. Every roaster is different. For example, those who roast at higher altitudes will have lower temperatures. Someone else might have a large drum roaster and others may have a Behmor so comparing temperatures is not really possible except as a reference. I agree the behmor temperatures show much lower. I never really understood my behmor temperatures to be anything more than a basic reference to my roast progress OR how close I was to the machine overheating. Looking at the FAQ on the behmor site, it says that the A Temperature isn't the bean temp but a "coorelation" and only becomes active mid-way through the roast. In other words, it is usless as an accurate reference. Behmor actually says you should never compare your temps with other behmor users because of the different variables like roasting environment. Also, they state that the load size can affect temps as well. Please see this link: behmor.com/knowledge-base/ab-temperature-reading-faqs/ So, unfortunately, I have not answered your question directly. I think It would be best for you to use the temps only as a reference to the roasters behavior, like when the fan will turn on. The P1-P5 is helpful because you at least know how much energy the heating elements are trying to push. The bottom line is to rely on our senses when roasting on the behmor. Many people will never use the manual feature of the Behmor and simply push an auto button and wait for first crack and then begin their countdown before hitting the cool button. That is pretty much what Behmor has created with their roaster. That isn't a bad thing for a beginner but for someone who wants to expand their experience, relying on the senses is critical. Watching bean color, smell, listening for crack and all that time, adjusting the power to manipulate the roast times in each of the 3 phases of coffee roasting. The Behmor can roast some great coffee so I don't think your coffee flavor will be greatly impacted in a negative way because of the "apparent" lower roasting temperatures BUT preheating your roaster is a very important step to help build momentum during the dry phase. It just takes a little longer in the behmor. I hope my comments are helpful.

[@pavelkaiser6787]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hello and thank you, but I am still confused. There must be a huge difference between coffees roasted at 400 or at 300 °F, is it so? And this is why I am still puzzled with the Behmor. I tried to roast my coffee manually but gave up as the P1 to P5 give me much better results. I am just concerned that a coffee roasted at MUCH higher temperature must be very different. I know that the Behmor does not measure the beans temperature, only the inside of the roaster (or a smoke) but still I wish to understand the BIG difference in the temperatures. Can anybody tell me more? Thank you all. Pavel

[@luigicollins3954]

​@@pavelkaiser6787 Hi Pavel. I also have a Behmor (2000AB), and have the same questions as you do. Mike is right in that there is very little Behmor users can do to control charge temperature. I always run manual roasts, and I use 100% heat (P5) during the entire Drying Phase. About all we (Behmor users) can do to affect charge temperature is to maybe pre-heat our roasters to some degree. I always pre-heat now, and heat to a B (chamber) temperature of from 100 F to 150 F. But some of my roasts, especially when dense beans are used, can seem to have kind of a long Drying Phase time, at least longer than I like. After watching this video, I might try heating to 200 F or maybe even higher to see if that helps. I have not seen any scorching or tipping defects in any of my roasts yet, but I will need to watch that if I increase my pre-heat temperatures. It sounds like you are using the internal roasting profiles (P1 to P5)Those might work for some coffee types, some of the time. But, all the profiles do is automatically control heating percentage over time. The profiles cannot make roasting temperatures any higher than you can do manually. And more importantly, the profiles cannot tell when drying is complete, first crack occurs, or when the roast is done to your liking. On my Behmor, I do not watch temperatures much anymore. They do NOT accurately report actual drum temperature, nor actual bean temperature. That is why Behmor roaster people really need to watch, smell, and listen continuously during roasting. Using those senses is about the only way to get somewhat accurate information about roast progress. The B temperature is really the temperature on the right side wall of the chamber; the A temperature is the temperature of the air that is exhausted, but is only valid after the vent opens. That is why you see such a big difference between the charge temperatures people say they use, versus temperatures we see on the Behmor. Charge temperatures they talk about are usually temperatures of a solid drum, which the Behmor does not have and cannot report.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks Lou, that was very helpful. Pavel, I will see what I can learn as far as temp differences. Ultimately, I believe that shorter roasts will present brighter coffee. Using a light load on the Behmor along with Preheating and of course manual control starting with manual P5 as the highest heat, you should be able to achieve a respectful short dry phase. One thing to mention about times and temperatures. In all of my videos, i share examples. Personally, I don't charge any of my coffee at 400 degrees AND I know quite a few who charge at lower temps like 320 degrees. As I have said before, comparing temps is not helpful but times and roast phase percentages is. I hope that helps a little.

[@lexper7244]

Lol i was one of the 70% that didnt suscribe, sorry, suscribed. Thank you

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching and subscribing Lex. What roaster do you have?

[@PaulDinwiddie]

Over 6 minutes to get to the point; "Charge Temperature." I had to wait for 25% of the video to get a direct answer. 😞

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I have provided chapters in the video that include what I am covering. In this video I first need to explain "what charge temperature is", then "how it affects the roast", then context with the different types of equipment and then yes, after 6 minutes "how do I know what charge temperature to use". Most of my videos have chapters. Consider using the shortcut chapters if available and that will save you some time. Thanks for your comment and for watching.