EU4 but ARMY SIZES actually MAKE SENSE?

[@dabestestgoblin8495]

As someone born in 1444, I can confirm these numbers are much more accurate.

[@Sufferingzify]

Cut base Force Limit in Half, Double Base Manpower, but increase Unit Costs by 50%, and increase attrition base by 2%. This way the armies are smaller with bigger manpower pools and more draining on the economy, you would see very long wars.

[@Grothgerek]

But weren't wars historical not much shorter? Its actually quite unrealistic that so many wars are carpet sieging, when in reality losing a single battle could already decide the entire war.

[@WaifuSeeker]

@@Grothgerek Yes and no The problem is, we don't have an exact formula of how long wars need to be, some ended in a battle, others had sieges of decades.

[@Idoexist._.]

This and also make battles more deciding

[@DvrDvrs0n]

@@WaifuSeeker Also the way wars were before the military revolution is so critically diffrent that it is almost impossible to incorporate into 1 game mechanic

[@chase0300]

I think we also need to adjust how warscore is calculated. Holding a capital should be 25%-50% of warscore with holding the war goal another 30%-40%

[@gold_is_the_best]

it should be higher, it makes more sense to have an army the size of about 900k in the 1700s without it saying “attrition damage!”

[@Lp-army1]

yea espc when you consider how much the ottomans conquer and what they conquer

[@manyarcin4216]

Only in times of war could such a large army be maintained and never all 900k at a time but over the course of the war with a few exceptions tho

[@ghastlyghandi4301]

At it’s peak the Ottoman Empire had around 240k troops in total, almost 4 times less the amount you suggested 😂

[@dinowawan92]

At the end of Louis the 14th the Kingdom of France had around 500 000 men in the field

[@Lp-army1]

@@ghastlyghandi4301 EU4 Doesn't force the Ottomans to exclusively conquer their peak borders

[@elcazador3349]

The Ming should have a larger force limit and manpower pool; perhaps all emperors of united China should. Based on France, vassal swarms are too powerful for these changes.

[@cp1cupcake]

Yeah, that is what I thought. I thought their 1444 numbers theoritically should look like mil hegemon.

[@gustavblackwell1494]

Similarly to vassal swarms, free companies will be very overpowered for the player. They can't cheaply go over force limit by a significant amount at game start

[@stevenkoja5]

lol ottomans even had 100k armies in the 1400s, regular eu4 is pretty accurate actually

[@daunchannel3377]

Back then regular troops which were always ready to fight in Ottoman Empire was about 30-40k. At war they was starting to raise levies or local forces on border with opponent. And then it could be around 80k. But still there alot of notes that medieval chronicles added to army amount servants, blacksmiths for building camps, convoys. So in eu4 only regulsr army should be shown in countries and they will ne around 20-50k

[@ghastlyghandi4301]

They had a little less than 100k in total, that’s everyone in their armed forces, navy, garrison, most of it won’t be represented by actual infantry in game. Base eu4 is not accurate at all, especially later on

[@100beep5]

Yes, well, Tenochtitlan had about 300K total.

[@DvrDvrs0n]

@@ghastlyghandi4301 If we want to make it realistic we should have levies mechanic which allows you to raise militia in states which would number the %of dev in a state equal to the % of manpower. So you could raise levies in states consisting of 30% of your dev, which would spawn troops equaling 30% of your manpower. Add a 5-year long debuff to the state after raising levies and make them scale badly with tech, so that they are obsolete by mid-game.

[@DvrDvrs0n]

Not perfect but "addable"

[@rubo009]

Ottomans were sieging constantinople with 100 k soldiers in 1453, more than force limit being an issue, i think troops are very cheap compared to real life

[@danshakuimo]

Imagine if unpaid or underpaid troops would turn into rebels and start trying to carve out their own realm

[@rubo009]

@@danshakuimo no more rebels pls 😮‍💨

[@corporalcorgi4948]

@@danshakuimo Victoria 2 does something in that vein, but the rebels just immediately split off upon reaching enough militancy and usually get crushed by the rest of the army they were (formerly) attached to, resulting in a minor annoyance

[@m1821Z]

100k soldiers? The word "soldiers" is used very liberally here, because the vast majority of them were not professional troops, but were levies and peasant farmers who were haphazardly armed and used to complete the encirclement of the city. The actual Ottoman army sieging Constantinople was only around 30k large in terms of professional and regular troops. This is the problem with EU4, being able to have such ridiculously large armies so early on. Especially after conquering territories, within 5 years, you can integrate them seamlessly and get another 20k professional soldiers out of those lands, which makes no sense.

[@AbstractTraitorHero]

@@m1821Z This is not what a levie is, peasent farmers are not going in with pitchforks and the like.

[@cp1cupcake]

....Didn't Ming have hundreds of thousands of soldiers it could theoritically call on in 1444?

[@blue-d4g]

Not just Ming, Asia in general wielded far larger armies compared to Europe. And they were full-time soldiers too.

[@David-bh7hs]

@@blue-d4gthe last part of your statement is false

[@minhquanphung9641]

@@David-bh7hs yep, Ming army is a exception than a norm, other nations don't have full-time soldiers. In South East Asian army where part-time soldiers that may or may not have some small training in peace time ( like training longbow man in England but instead of bow it usually spear. ), the main reason what i know of is states at the time cannot feed/pay for it.

[@maxpont8989]

I guess the main idea of the mod is to model expeditionary forces under the unified command of the king, not simply garrisons and local forces

[@Chewbert]

China is a whole different beast compared to, say, England in the 1400s

[@AHappyCub]

I think the problem is that its a linear nerf across the board instead of by scale, where small 1 state nation shouldnt be able to field past 1-3k soldiers but larger states can get to hundreds of thousands easier, and it goes up by tech level too, so overtime even a 1 state nation can get maybe 10k while even larger nation can get to millions easily in the field (not necessarily fund them 24/7)

[@northeasturbanist]

Honestly the numbers aren’t the issue, they should just be exponentially more expensive to maintain

[@Chewbert]

I can see that, yeah

[@Notmyname1593]

It is if you go over force limit.

[@m1821Z]

The problem is that trade income is broken, so if this was the case, England can abuse trade to get 50k troops by 1500 while France will be struggling to maintain 40k. The issue is also that EU4 makes no distinctions between militias, levies and professional troops. Units are either infantry, cavalry, artillery, or sometimes a special variant of these. Infantry combat ability buffs every infantry, Cav combat ability buffs every cav, and so forth. Artillery is all uniform size and role in EU4, which also presents another balancing issue. So yeah, the whole system would need to be reworked to make sense (which is exactly what they're going to do in EU5)

[@cana_leta]

Damn, now all those Wikipedia's strength sections for battles makes more sense

[@PLScypion]

Nerfing army sizes really does lead to the most unhinged of timelines, I love it!

[@danshakuimo]

Mega Mexico

[@nicobruin8618]

At the battle of Varna, which took place the day before thebeu4 start date, the ottomans fielded 60.000 troops.

[@m1821Z]

The Ottomans had 60k "troops" indeed. Except with these troops, the majority were people who, in their day to day life, were primarily farmers and had been pressed into temporary service, militias, peasant levies etc. The problem in EU4 is that no distinction is drawn between professional troops or untrained masses, and you can have an enourmous professional army on standby at all times. There is no mobilisation, there is no calling to arms, you just have a huge army ready to go 24/7. You just have infantry, cavalry, or artillery, and buffs apply to them all broadly. EU5 is going to have more subcategories of units, with different performance and advantages, disadvantages etc, which hopefully will create a more balanced and immersive game.

[@MrHanbam]

Aside from some really bad or good provinces in the game I personally think force limit irl would work pretty 1 to 1 early on of one province equals 1000 soldiers. This works pretty well for Europe and the Middle East in 1444 imo. Ming not so much as well as India.

[@LarsSteenbreker]

The East Frisian Glory shall not be forgotten...

[@towarzysztatar7961]

If anything armies are actually to small at the start. For example Ottoman army at constantinople in 1453 numbered around 60000, at Albulena in 1457 ottomans had up to 80000 men. But i agre that it should be more difficult to reach 1 milion army in 1700s. Russia that was perceived to have monstrous amount of soldiers had army numbering around 500k, so armies numbering in millions are laughably big for that time period.

[@sahilhossain8204]

Lore of EU4 but ARMY SIZES actually MAKE SENSE? Momentum 100

[@litadahl6806]

Meanwhile, the oirat vs ming was reportedly 20k oirat vs 500k ming troops, because china and asia go hard on manpower.

[@Chewbert]

Chinese manpower goes crazy

[@jclcjonjon]

Ming had over 1 million troops in the 1400s

[@Chewbert]

Very cool thanks

[@SneedChuckson]

Did you remember regimental camps? AI builds them

[@Chewbert]

that's probably what it was, actually, good call

Forts should require player to use force limit to build. Easy way to lower the amount of troops, and makes building forts more of a choice, since right now question is only "Do I have enough money to build a fort?"

[@electricVGC]

The only thing that sucks about all these fun things is how the dumb Mingsplosion always happebs

[@jackhodges1633]

Ok so idea, same modifier but mercs use no force limit, to simulate how dependent most countries were on mercenaries

[@Fury_MB]

I feel like if we made the units 100 instead of 1000 they would be better balancing. Leave force limit alone then cause it would make more sense for you to have 30 units and only 3k manpower in the field. Might have to double force limit looking back.

[@smg4unofficialminion109]

Here are some suggestions for the next eu4 gimmick: Redo the Ming but all nations are tributary's because paradox added new reforms the Ming can do. Next we could make it impossible to colonize and add back the tribes in America and Oceania. Last what if every nation starts with tech one.

[@raptor2657]

Playing MEIOU & Taxes really puts this into perspective. At the beginning, as France or England you can only have at max around 18 regiments, but as the game goes on and you reform your government you can easily get a several hundred thousand strong standing army and once you introduce conscription with a high state reach you can get millions.

[@AbstractTraitorHero]

Does MEIOU & Taxes make eu4 not feel as absurd?

[@AlphaNumericKey]

@@AbstractTraitorHero Dunno, it always crashed after two months for me.

[@wallenrod9017]

ottos having 30k makes sense unlike one province minors with 5k

[@noituloveR_aL_aviV]

Although the end game armies are usually way more than they should be but the starting armies arent as outrageous or even underwhelming such as in the battle of Varna Ottomans fought with around 60000 troops against the crusaders and in the game you start with around 35 to 40k or something like that thats why i think this portrayal of armies is even more historically inacurrate.

[@Hell000Kaiser]

yeah, who would have thought that reducing the troops and manpower without nerfing the rebels amount would break the game xDDDD

[@ClassicsManWithAPlan]

Hey, next time you do a mass colonize mod, could you please use flat development so Europe isn't so overpowered. love the content

[@jerryhoff681]

Ming with 18000 Soldiers makes no sense at all

[@Chewbert]

But it’s funny

[@tobiasL1991]

What a wild one! Damn

[@maklethm4913]

This is so much better

[@deniszavis4160]

Is this mod available on steam?

[@gabrielgodwin2241]

Do giving a country an immortal ruler for the entire game, make it female so they can't become generals and see if having max ruler for entire game changes much. Also give them -100% advisor cost so they can run level 5 advisors from d get go

[@beaub152]

Ottomans had 60k during the varna crusade

[@cashtherealsaint]

You really remind me of old drew durnil and your the kinda of channel i have been looking for since he stopped making ai only videos

[@thegreatestdane8978]

If possible, rank should reflect the degree of nerfing to force limit received, i.e., an empire can reasonably field more men than a duchy or kingdom, except the AI is dumb and will just go over their ability to finance such an army anyways resulting in bankruptcy.

[@Burno01]

Ok I'm going to need this mod to remove my gov cap

[@romulusnuma116]

This was a beautiful game for Georgia

[@Zackary1005]

Funny seeing Hollang being in a bad place like that (not mentally, just Northern Ontario)

[@Foaklore]

Oh that is one beautiful Georgia, chef's kiss

[@burakahmettr8193]

siege of contantinople was aorund 54k army with all reinforcements from provinces, it makes sense and not sense. also after 30 years in 1473 otlukbeli war there was 300k cavalry against ottomans, so its not impossible but those numbers changes drastically. especially if you think in game sense there is noy way you cannot get to 300k cavalry as aq qoyunlu at 1473

[@m1821Z]

The problem with these numbers is that they do not account for differences between professional troops and militia, peasant levies etc. Ottomans had a 60k army, but only half of it were professional troops. Also those numbers at Otlukbeli are without a doubt exaggerated for both sides. Sources are very limited, and demographically it makes no sense. How would such armies even be logistically supported in 1473? Neither the Ottomans or the Aq and Qara had such a system to support them.

[@sg_kerb]

the turks had 60k at the battle of varna in 1444. i dont get how them having 30k is unrealistic

[@Chewbert]

Is them having 1.5 mil in 1800 realistic?

[@bielrios2001]

it makes city states too powerfull , maybe limiting their manpower should be a thing

[@manhattan128]

One think is that pesants revels should be nerfed a 1000 men profesional army should esayly crush a 5000 pesant army

[@NP3GA]

Did... Did he just mixed Sicily with Sardinia?

[@Chewbert]

No, the map is wrong

[@kaziem]

No!!!! Don't Castrate Thuringia! They don't want to be a eunuch state!

[@spree0564]

can you upload this mod to steam? something new would be awesome

[@Stevonicus]

East Frisia is the true winner

[@bigup6126]

the early game numbers are pretty accurate it's just the late game that's inflated

[@Chewbert]

Yeah, but it's funny seeing Ottomans with like 12k troops lol

[@urosjeremic1713]

@Chewbert can u give me link of the that mod?

[@lifeinanutshell7147]

Can you share the mod please? 🙏

[@tessfairfield6435]

So true Byzantine lesbians

[@janontourchannel]

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