Child Psychopaths and ADHD

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Psychology In Seattle

Psychology In Seattle

Күн бұрын

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@alexisnotonfire
@alexisnotonfire 3 ай бұрын
I'm not a clinician, but I am a woman in my 30s with ADHD. And I have to say, it feels incredibly icky to sit here and listen to Dr Kirk recount one of the most relatable ADHD experiences, but then follow it up with "Sure... maybeI have signs of ADHD, but then I met the stereotypical 5-year-old boy who is the poster child for ADHD, who looks and acts nothing like me, who hasn't learned how to mask his symptoms for survival. Now I get that there's absolutely NO WAY I could have it." This is the exact reason so many people with ADHD get written off by the medical system, or fly under the radar, particularly in girls and women, where so much of it is internalized. And it's part of why we have so many issues with self-esteem and imposter syndrome. It's not a "watered down" diagnosis. It's that more and more people are becoming educated and self-aware, and it's likely just much more common than people originally thought.
@TheRaven2208
@TheRaven2208 3 ай бұрын
Chiming in on the object permanence thing as someone diagnosed with ADHD - but also researching it in adults. It is true that people with ADHD also develop object permanence as infants and don't get spooked by tomatoes going "peek-a-boo" in the fridge - and they know this. I see it more as a half-serious term lended from the original concept because it explains a part of the everyday struggle in a way that neither literature nor professionals have explained them. Maybe it's comparable to a meme within the neurodivergent communities: it's not taken literally, but everyone in there can relate on the spot. Also coping by self-deprecating humour plays a role in this I think. An example: Everyone has had vegetables going bad in their fridge, but to people with ADHD it can happen so frequently that they jokingly call it "ADHD tax". Obviously there is no official ADHD tax, but you need to replace spoiled groceries, buy things twice because you absolutely can't find them (or broke them accidentally again). This use of "object permanence" describes items, tasks or sadly even people (!) vanishing from your "radar" as soon as they aren't directly in front of you - or you've built yourself a workaround to remind you.
@concui
@concui 3 ай бұрын
YES! I agree with this. We try condensing it or we latch onto a word that makes sense to us or use what others say. Definitely may not always be the accurate word but the experience and/or the way others have explained it, is accurate.
@mialili669
@mialili669 3 ай бұрын
I think the point she was making was more criticising how using social media as a diagnosis tool leads to inaccurate use of scientific terms which might in this sense be less harmful and somewhat silly. However if I liken it to for example the use of OCD as an adjective for wanting neatness you can see where the Internet or media in general should not be be used as gospel when it comes to mental health diagnoses. Google doesn't make someone an expert!
@concui
@concui 3 ай бұрын
And I feel like she did make her point. I also have issues with people spreading misinformation but I also give them some grace, since that's how I started off. My misinformed and not taking myself seriously years weren't on the Internet but that's how I coped. And yes, the example of the OCD is definitely not beneficial to those who struggle with it. I'm also just critiquing how she said her side of the conversation. I am not a professional but I am someone who is in the community they are talking about. But definitely this is what keeps me going and I look forward to seeing what others have to say with all different walks of life !
@sazonada
@sazonada 3 ай бұрын
@TheRaven2208 I guess I thought the term was accurate. Maybe because once I put something away it does disappear like it never existed. But even if the term is wrong, the concept is accurate. And I wrote a novel in the comments, I would prefer the ability to make an appointment and visit a professional. That's barely accessible even for people with good insurance. Yes. I got some medical information from TikTok. That's not how I want it to go. But the villain here isn't the housewife trying to help people keep their home manageable. It's our for profit healthcare system.
@sazonada
@sazonada 3 ай бұрын
To be clear to anyone who's reading. Doctors and mental health professionals aren't bad guys who just care about profits. They're just stuck with narrow parameters. They went to school to help people and care very much. The insurance and pharmaceutical execs? That's another video about psychopathy.
@GoldenVulpes
@GoldenVulpes 3 ай бұрын
I take my ADHD kid to a cafe and get them a little treat and do their homework with them there. Honestly I find it easier to focus too when I'm not at home where all the fun stuff is.
@ginkgobilobatree
@ginkgobilobatree 3 ай бұрын
I'm someone diagnosed with ADHD very late in life (after 50). I was of the inattentive type - which has zero "hyperactivoty" in my presentation of it. I mostly just was unable to shift focus and was "daydreamy" as a kid. The EF part is the crucial part and which led to me finally being diagnosed. "ADHD" is not hyperactivity, it's all about focus. My diagnostician had me read a book ("Driven to Distraction") and had me ignore the part of the, at the time at least, DSM wording about symptoms showing up at or prior to age 7. I don't have the "typical" ADHD symptoms, was never identified as a kid, was a star student academically, but DEFINITELY had ADHD my entire life! Also, I want to mention that the hyper-focus I did have was a huge part of my success in school, whereas now life is super hard for me.
@kateginger
@kateginger 3 ай бұрын
ADD then?
@RambleMaven
@RambleMaven 3 ай бұрын
Some argue that ADD is hyperactive it’s just mental hyperactivity instead of a need for physical stimulation.
@megapiglatin2574
@megapiglatin2574 3 ай бұрын
Yeah, I was diagnosed a little under 2 years ago at age 29, and I have found that the things I struggle with have sort of shifted between childhood and adulthood. So, for example, I excelled in school (for the most part-I struggled big time with homework, but that was for a couple reasons), and I still am able to learn/understand new concepts and skills at work relatively quickly, but I often had to find work-arounds for tasks like summer reading assignments or assignments to read sections of a text book-I have always enjoyed reading, but physically reading a book has become MUCH more difficult as an adult I think because there are so many other things I could be doing that hold my attention better? Also, skills I have trouble with like time management are far more noticeable as an adult since the expectation is that I should be able to be on time to things and be responsible for timing things correctly on my own, as opposed to in childhood when other people were largely responsible for me (though, granted, pretty sure my mom has undiagnosed ADHD and she struggles just as much with time management!).
@RaymondJiang444
@RaymondJiang444 3 ай бұрын
​@@RambleMaven That would depend on whether an ADD person isn't able to focus because they're mentally hyperactive or they're simply zoning out. Nowadays, ADD is labelled as ADHD-inattentive type. There's also ADHD-combined type where you have traits and behaviors of both traditional ADHD and ADD.
@hannahaguirre9465
@hannahaguirre9465 3 ай бұрын
As a mother of 5 kids, it's extremely difficult to put all that extra effort into our kids, especially those children that need that extra effort. I'm lucky that the parenting coaches/therapists and my personal therapist validate me and understand how hard it is and cheer me on through the process. I am working through that now and it takes so much out of me, both emotionally and physically. Of course as a mom, that's what I need to do and want the best for my children. If only you would know how HARD it is on the parents. I had a very traumatic childhood , so I'm working through that and doing a lot of inner work plus working one on one with each of my children ranging from age 23 down to age 6 each for their specific needs. It's beyond exhausting . You would think after 23 years of parenting , I'd have it all figured out. But no, each child is an entire world , and each has his/her own issues . I appreciated this podcast.
@edbrown5956
@edbrown5956 3 ай бұрын
My childhood pill pusher actually gave some good advice for homework with ADHD. They told my mom to give me a caffeinated soda as soon as I got home with homework to act as a stimulant. Not everyday so to not build a tolerance but it did help if the kid isn't on stimulants
@hannahaguirre9465
@hannahaguirre9465 3 ай бұрын
@@edbrown5956 this is interesting, because my ADHD son just started drinking mate tea multiple times, daily and he seems to be doing so much better all around, especially with focus. I thought it's something else in the tea, but maybe it's just the caffeine.
@JC-ul4qm
@JC-ul4qm 3 ай бұрын
As an adult with ADHD, I found the video a bit uncomfortable to watch, especially the part where the doctor laughed at people using "object permanence" incorrectly. I understand it’s not the same as the developmental concept for babies, but using terms like that can still be helpful for understanding ADHD. The way ADHD was described and the suggestions for what could help made me feel a bit uncomfortable too, though I’m not exactly sure why. It might just be that it’s tough for those who don’t have ADHD to fully capture what it’s like?
@sazonada
@sazonada 3 ай бұрын
TLDR: This is a conversation between two professionals. Please keep in mind that much of the audience are people with ADHD, please choose your words and tone carefully. [Edited for some spelling and punctuation errors. You all know brevity is not an option] I got pretty upset (I have issues with Emotional Regulation, haha) listening to the guest laughing about object permanence in ADHD discussed on Social Media. That laughter triggered my underlying feelings of worthlessness and lack of character for a moment, as if my forgetting I even possess a thing was funny. I can pick up that she's laughing at the misuse of the term with another clinician, but we can hear you and easily misunderstand what you're laughing at. So if the term "Object Permanence" is inaccurate what is the correct term? Honestly when the Tomato goes into the fridge yes, it truly does cease to exist. Unlike a 2 year old, if someone said the moment after I shut the door "Do you have tomatoes in the fridge?" I would say yes, they exist. But if no one was there to say that in that moment, if they asked me if there were tomatoes in the fridge, I would very frequently say no. So, I can deduce that she's laughing that a layperson got a clinical term wrong and that's a problem with self diagnosing/getting medical information online. But it felt awful because that layperson online validated something that is wrong with my brain, not my character, and I was guided to the fact that I have ADHD. I've gone to therapy for decades, and it took *me* diagnosing *myself* for this condition that professionals misdiagnosed as Anxiety and Depression, which were symptoms of my ADHD. And then it took me going outside of protocols and paying $500 out of pocket to finally get a correct diagnosis. I had been screened before and not diagnosed (I'm a woman) and 3/4 of my life has been spent hating myself. And just emphasizing again that I paid $500 out of pocket. People with ADHD often drop out of school and dont make enough money for that. The waiting list & insurance companies make self diagnosing and the internet the only accessible health care for ADHD.
@AurorasWindow
@AurorasWindow 3 ай бұрын
She was also laughing in the background while Kirk accurately described problems with executive functioning we face while doing simple things as brushing teeth. I gotta say, I have crappy working memory, I score percentile 13th for working memory 😂 so for me, most things I don’t see, they don’t exist 😅
@sazonada
@sazonada 3 ай бұрын
@AurorasWindow Wow. I lost interest after the object permanence thing, glad I didn't hear that!
@zmvrcv
@zmvrcv 3 ай бұрын
"layperson" yeah, no. your whole block of text will be discarded
@rachelann9362
@rachelann9362 3 ай бұрын
Same for me. 39. Every complaint of ADHD was depression. I even said “I WANT to do these things, but I just can’t get myself to initiate it.”
@NellieWindmillArt
@NellieWindmillArt 3 ай бұрын
As someone with ADHD I immediately knew what the object permanence comment was referring to. I recently got a cello and I keep forgetting I have a cello now. Every time I enter the room with the cello I’m surprised and happy all over again that I have a cello. On the other hand I’m also a person with a degree in psychology and I found the peak-a-boo comment genuinely funny.
@FishareFriendsNotFood972
@FishareFriendsNotFood972 3 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for this, ADHD is so misunderstood culturally and I wish there were experts willing to publicly educate.
@sallyann985
@sallyann985 3 ай бұрын
I can't believe how many people are getting their feelings hurt by a clinician having a laugh about lay people misusing the concept of "object permanence" online. She was polite about it, it's not that deep.
@haileyoslund
@haileyoslund 3 ай бұрын
I agree. I have ADHD and I genuinely don’t understand what others on this post are saying. Shes not being rude in the slightest…..
@haileyoslund
@haileyoslund 3 ай бұрын
Also, Dr Kirk is very careful to clarify or rephrase something for his guests if he perceives that they have said something listeners could take negatively and he didn’t do that in this episode because it wasn’t necessary lol
@reginageorgeseviltwin
@reginageorgeseviltwin Ай бұрын
I think the issue was in how she did it. She could have explained the correct terminology and what is actually happening with this phenomenon more accurately, but she chose to focus on laughing at people for describing a real experience because the jargon was wrong. It was gross and not constructive or helpful at all.
@sallyann985
@sallyann985 Ай бұрын
@reginageorgeseviltwin "it was gross" lmao
@reginageorgeseviltwin
@reginageorgeseviltwin Ай бұрын
@@sallyann985 I said what I said Sally
@carissa7434
@carissa7434 3 ай бұрын
30 min -good clip for shorts! regarding over diagnosis of ODD in children (our own family psychiatrist is constantly fighting this diagnosis in kids for the same reason!)
@RaymondJiang444
@RaymondJiang444 3 ай бұрын
Would love to see an episode on NVLD (nonverbal learning disability). It's rarely discussed compared to dyslexia and other learning disorders, and its symptoms overlap so much with boyh Autism and ADHD.
@AJ-hz3tx
@AJ-hz3tx 3 ай бұрын
Oh man…the mania aspect. I remember someone asking me once the things my dad did in manic episodes. Copying the dictionary word for word AND illustrations…and I mean like as if it was photocopied. And many, many other behaviors that people wouldn’t believe unless they saw it. I am a teacher and have a lot of experience with mental illness in my family (me-OCD) and adhd kiddos are so tricky because, like the engine idle explanation, we can’t work on all 4 cylinders for 7 straight hours a day. So, no, we don’t sit all day we get up and move OFTEN but I just can’t put on a show so glorious that I can entice an adhd brain to be satiated. And, even if I did, then I have other students with anxiety who wouldn’t be able to handle a classroom environment like that. It’s a very hard place to be when you know that the teaching methods for one group of kids goes directly against the needs of another group. Quite the balancing act most days.
@jackyyrag
@jackyyrag 3 ай бұрын
I'm curious if you could do an episode on kids who are diagnosed or labeled with Emotional Disturbance, a term used in Special Education.
@emmadear3276
@emmadear3276 3 ай бұрын
Disappointed in this one the co host was really dismissive (atleast re: the section "what is adhd") It goes so undiagnosed in women bc it isn't believed, and joking about object permanence was really sad women are already not believed enough with getting diagnosed. Hopefully this gets better with time and more education.....
@sazonada
@sazonada 3 ай бұрын
Yeah. I think she forgot we might be listening. She was chatting with another professional who might also think it's funny that a person online used the incorrect (?) term for a very challenging symptom of ADHD, and forgot that a (often highly sensitive) person with that symptom will hear that laughter and think they're saying it doesn't exist. I also commented below that like you said, we spent our lives undiagnosed and that layperson on TikTok that used the wrong word was the one who gave us the information and support we couldn't get from the medical system because of access and other things.
@hundop9195
@hundop9195 3 ай бұрын
What does people misunderstanding the meaning of object permanence have to do with diagnoses of women with ADHD? I dunno, but it seems pretty unfair to me to label someone who literally is making their career about working with and caring for children with ADHD as being dismissive of the difficulties of those with ADHD. I think she was lovely
@emmadear3276
@emmadear3276 3 ай бұрын
@hundop9195 @hundop9195 At times, she was laughing and dismissive of people's real experiences or trying to explain what they experience, which is so hard when your symptoms are invisible to the outside world. For example she talked about people self diagnosing from working out from being online and working out their symptoms that line up their lived experience- chuckling about how when we describe we have adhd undiagnosed, but not H hyperactivity but A D D (inattentive, bc it's very different it's a subtype) and basically was kind of laughing that it was a big ridiculous people are self diagnosing from looking it up online or the explanation of object permanence - that was probably someone trying to explain something they experience mentally but it's invisible and hard to explain and they probably just used a poor word choice. But pertaining to women bc out of boys that are diagnosed with adhd you might get a ratio like one out of 20 boys have adhd but only half if that ate girls being diagnosed, but the ratio becomes 1:1 men and women diagnosed as adults with add/adhd because women learn to mask based on gender roles and expectations to fit a certain mould, so there's a huge gap of girls bring overlooked and women not being diagnosed until way later in life which can often make like really hard for women and girls to get through life but we fumble through and make it bc we have to unnecessarily if it was caught earlier like it is in boys. So, the laughing and dismissing of our experience feeds into the same attitude as to why we are misdiagnosed and fall through the cracks
@hundop9195
@hundop9195 3 ай бұрын
@@emmadear3276 I am in the camp that people (such as myself, who has renounced my ADHD diagnosis) who self diagnose as ADHD often have a separate issue based in attachment trauma and difficulties during development that manifest as having attentional difficulties. I checked off almost all the symptoms, but the thing that actually helped me was in depth therapy and healing from my traumas, not the stimulant medication. So I don't think it's actually a positive that the rate of ADHD diagnosis for boys is so high, I think you're under the false assumption that they all actually have ADHD, although I do agree it is problematic that girls with ADHD slip through the cracks. But, I understand it's a sensitive topic for some and the ADHD label helps with the shame and validates the struggle, I know, I've been there. These are just my thoughts on the topic, I just wanted to defend the guest because she seems like a good person and I don't want her to feel bad about herself
@DevoidVoid
@DevoidVoid 3 ай бұрын
​​@@emmadear3276 but you can use the same logic for men with ADHD and BPD too... That's maybe where you getting pushback.. chronic shaming, invalidation and tons of masking to attempt to fit in can lead to a wide variety of other diagnosis based off presenting gender roles even for men, with lots of men dying without a diagnosis, not even getting one in the first place and ending up in prison, still with an incorrect diagnosis. We all have different challenges in life and I'm certain the professional didn't mean to be singling out of particular people. But I do agree with you despite everything I've stated, this is a relatively new science all things considered.
@AMT_823
@AMT_823 3 ай бұрын
This was so interesting...learned a lot. Thank you both!
@sunnypie2
@sunnypie2 3 ай бұрын
I agree that success isn’t everything, BUT society is cruel and treats people differently by their “success” in the long run. And that may cause unhappiness in the long run vs short term. But that’s changing the society not the individual. If that makes sense
@welshblush
@welshblush 3 ай бұрын
great job, cousin! I'm super proud of you!
@chloeforde9714
@chloeforde9714 13 күн бұрын
This was really really interesting.
@justin8865
@justin8865 3 ай бұрын
Oooo this is gunna be a banger!
@steggopotamus
@steggopotamus 3 ай бұрын
52:53: Please tell us what the proper term is, instead of insulting our intelligence. Saying it's a working memory thing is not enough for our conversations as a with adhd. I just came up with "background object tracking" for my personal use, but it still sounds like I'm talking about firing on clay pigeons. But I remember someone somewhere had a different word for it and it made sense but the word was too different and my linguistic memory is bunk, and when I tried to look it up, all I got was object permanence (i tried multiple ways and trying to not mention ADHD). Seriously I've heard people in the ADHD community say, "there's a different word for it but I can't remember it, so I'll just say object permanence." They've said it a lot for years. You can't expect us to know a word we weren't taught. At least 40% of the community knows it's not that word, but can't think of another word. So we talk in layperson short hand and would LOVE it if you corrected us compassionately. And the adhd brain often is comorbid with language learning issues too, so it really feels like "haha, adhd dumb lul. They probably couldn't even listen to this podcast *chortle*" I was literally yelling at my phone saying "THEN TELL US WHAT WORD TO USE". Because it's too cumbersome to explain which executive function thing in detail every time.
@thevirtualtraveler
@thevirtualtraveler 17 күн бұрын
As a person with ADD/ADHD, I am very much in favor of changing the name to Executive Function Disorder (EFD) because it is a more accurate description of what is going on, and can potentially make it easier for those who don't have it to understand it, rather than it just being a squirrel joke. Also, so many women go diagnosed b/c they aren't "hyperactive", but they clearly DO have a disordered Executive Function.
@puddlesplasher7
@puddlesplasher7 3 ай бұрын
Regarding the homework thing...i think the person being interviewed maybe isnt thinking about nightly homework vs long term projects....nightly homework is bullshit, whereas long term independent projects actually mimick real world skills you need in a job... (And as a person with adhd whose parents didnt believe in adhd, therefore i didnt get treatment until i had my own insurance as an adult)... Nightly homework was a quick way to failure for me, but i succeeded in classes and found value in classes where the homework consisted of independent longterm projects (we did have meetings with teachers to talk about it intermittently... very much like a real job!!) with a lot of leeway, such as in language arts, where we could do any variety of modalities (a paper, or video, music, diorama, acting, anything really) as long as we met the requirements in rubric that showed understanding etc of themes, etc... also, we had summer reading where we had AN ENTIRE SUMMER to read some books and write some papers.... The irony is that this model was only in gifted/honors classes, but i was in regular math and history, which had meaningless punitive homework, and a lot of the kids in regular classes would do better with the honors/gifted model....but never get that opportunity
@concui
@concui 3 ай бұрын
Im still listening but i wanted to say that, The dsm 5 is definitely a stepping ladder to most people when hearing something that resonates, so we seek it out and this is supposed to be the most credible information about diagnosis. So why doubt it? BUT after every now and then visiting the dsm 5 and constantly updating myself with other people's experiences, i totally get why it is flawed and why people caution others to not heavily rely on it. (In case i need to specify, I'm referring to us people who self diagnose or start our diagnosis journey because of something that caught our attention)
@hundop9195
@hundop9195 3 ай бұрын
@@concui It's not doubt in the DSM, it's doubt about the non-clinicians interpretation of the DSM. If you don't have a good understanding of the condition and severity, then it's easy to misinterpret the diagnostic criteria and identify with criteria incorrectly. The function of the DSM is for clinicians and diagnosticians (and insurance companies) to determine appropriate treatment, not to further self understanding or even necessarily to understand the specifics and intricacies of the conditions they are diagnosing. It's called the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" for a reason.
@concui
@concui 3 ай бұрын
Not sure if my reply went through since I'm not seeing it. But I essentially said, good point!!
@dragonclaws9367
@dragonclaws9367 3 ай бұрын
They sell those rolls of tickets at the dollar store for charity raffles and such. He probably sent mom and dad out for a roll.
@justin8865
@justin8865 3 ай бұрын
That was excellent. Man I really wish this info was out there when I was a kid would've saved me me alot of struggle. Oh well the VA is helping me out now, the information and medication, got my first strait As last semester! It's crazy I can just like do what I need to do now! Homework bam easy! Cleaning the house booom got it! Like fuck I always thought I was just lazy and a pos. Yall keep doing the Lords work of education and treatment! Maybe save some kiddos alot of pain and struggle.
@Authentistic-ism
@Authentistic-ism 3 ай бұрын
this video sponsored by KitKat bar
@TheWriterNW
@TheWriterNW 3 ай бұрын
I didn't listen to the entire pod so I apologize if this was covered... but is child psychopathy a cause of trauma or is it something more like a birth defect?
@SailorSlay
@SailorSlay 3 ай бұрын
In the beginning they did speak about problems with the brain but more research is needed.
@asdfghjklbb
@asdfghjklbb 3 ай бұрын
in the recording they described both things and combinations and talked about the differences. if you have this question its worth it to listen
@MorganSelena-m7p
@MorganSelena-m7p 3 ай бұрын
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