Peak Torque on Bike Marketing, Real World Aero Savings and Hookless Dangers

[@PeakTorque]

Credit to these guys! Turned this around very fast. Can confirm that Chris can get it up very quickly 🎉 even as a cyclist Few comments to add: The easy answer to the 305W NP questions is - it doesn't get easier you and everyone else just get faster. The avg. speed of the bunch I bet has gone up I bet over the years. Secondly, Mr Bigham has been on the phone to say every GC leader should ride an aero bike. While the CFD says deep in the bunch there is up to a 95% drag reduction, the ride files don't show that, which he has access to :) Some more comments about tubeless - the tubeless center channel depth is really important when it comes to safety, yes you can make it deeper for easy installation (and the bead seat diameter can be the same at the wall) but if the bead slips down into the deeper channel under total pressure loss it is equally easy for the tyre to come off!

[@WishTheMorrow]

😈

[@matthewbenger8355]

🍆

[@datadrivendave]

I've been hoping for this one for a while. Great to see you on; and I loved that you grabbed the calculator as soon as Jesse started asking watts numbers :D

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

I’m here to confirm Chris can’t get it up. Jesse tho? Rock hard.

[@goldenretriever6261]

Gay.

[@jonathangriego7334]

How is this podcast just getting better and better?! This is probably my favorite episode so far. Please have PT back on again. Great job boys!

[@littlemrdrummer]

PeakTorque has my full respect. Sending it with humility, honesty and facts. Very very rare in this world of KZbin.

[@dominicmunson4480]

He said it! “You can’t cheat the physics” should be PTs tag line 😅. Great episode

[@henriqueratz]

Wow, this was my absolutely favorite episode! Great job to all 3 of you. As an engineer, I am in absolute awe of how well Alex can explain such complex topics and make it seem so interesting. He is a fantastic teacher. Keep up the good work with the podcast guys! you're absolutely right, the goal is to generate the conversation, and not cover 100% of the details.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Our pleasure!

[@adammillsindustries.]

If he grew a mullet out he’d be an absolute god!

[@future62]

I started this thinking "no way am I gonna get through an hour and a half".... got to the end like "wait yall are done already?" Great stuff, pod keeps getting better and better.

[@condorito93swe]

The episode we’ve all been waiting for! You guys are absolutely killing it, best pod on cycling YT.

[@hiddeg7461]

Finally

[@xball89]

Truth!

[@IanGilchrist-bi7dk]

This was the best episode yet-hands down.

[@raphaeltiziani7476]

and one with joe china cycling

[@marcvb3364]

Probably one of the best episodes you've done. Thanks for all these amazing insights!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Wow, thanks!

[@pantster9855]

Thank God someone has finally pointed out that aero savings in the bunch is basically zero. Imagine all those pros choosing the aero bike and sitting in the bunch all day. Thanks TP

[@abhimawa1]

Interesting discussion. As an F1 analyst, Ive bern struggling to understand this ‘aero’ issue, all of sudden bike manufacturers, and especially many cycling enthusiasts I met on the road becoming aero experts. In F1, even big names like Scuderia Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren DO make mistakes in understanding aero. Those teams have enormous budget & state-of-the-art wind tunnels & R&D by reputable engineering teams. Not to mention carbon layup, where to make it stiff & where to ‘cheat’ (heard of flexi wing?). This is a very good video with substantial discussion 👍 The real reason enthusiasts want aero bikes is because aero bikes are neat looking.

[@NikeonaBike]

Correct, fact of the matter is, wearing a pair of $25 aero socks reduces drag by more than the SL8 Roval stem and bar combo, but people want the bike anyway because its prestigious.

[@Hambini]

Me: 2 KZbin influencers find peak torque more attractive than me. Hairdresser: They must be men!!!

[@cyc00000]

Well this love triangle has had a divorce now @Hambini.

[@SherazChoudhary]

Loved the longer format and being able to hear Alex's viewpoints on multiple topics. Alex's depth of knowledge came across even better than it does in his own channel.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Great to hear!

[@oldguyandabike]

Excellent. You guys keep raising the bar on vid podcasts that are worth watching.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@oldguyandabike]

@@ChrisMillerCycling Very impressed with the 'common man' application from PT. He is only the second guy I have heard mention the 'stacked springs' idea on a bike and that things are too stiff most of the time. I have a saying that I think applies to most situations and most people riding a bike: "Smoother is faster". I do a lot of gravel riding, often on review bikes, carbon wheels, etc, and that really is a case where compliance is nearly always faster overall. And I am just now planning a new road bike build and contemplating 32s and a shallow carbon wheel for road. For where I live and how I ride, I think it is a smart choice, but I keep getting distracted by the 'shiny rocks' that modern bike marketing tosses out. We shall see. Thanks for the food for thought.

[@BreakawayB]

🔥These KZbinr collaborations are always the best episodes.

[@CyclespeedTours]

Excellent points here; a) 33W gain of SL8 over Venge Vias is clearly ridiculous. Specialized need to respond to this or risk looking stupid. b) small riders benefit more from weight and aero savings. Fact, but little known. c) Blowout video - I took it down because some people were reacting aggressively towards me which I really don't need. My YT videos are sporadic, crap and a hobby, nothing more. And also because I wanted to wait for some feedback from Conti, which I now have. So will reinstate the video with updates.

[@alberts4541]

The segment about the aero gain is kinda confusing. Because it isn't SL8 vs Venge Vias it's SL8 vs some bike before the Venge Vias. Jessy doesn't really say which bike that Venge Vias gained 2 minutes over.

[@jasonmurphy5780]

Great episode gentlemen; easily in the top 5 of all-time for the Nero Show. Recommend at least quarterly collaborations with PT. I’m personally a big fan of PT as well. I think your approaches to subjects relating with our sport are complimentary. Presents a very researched approach & useful contrast to questionable industry directions. Again, very solid episode! Cheers!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Great suggestion!

[@whackachangchangable]

I'd love for you to dive into your hefron park data set and see if the speed has changed over the years. If everyone else has swapped from round tube bikes to aero rigs over the last 10 years then maybe everyone is still pushing the same power as always, but the pack is going a little bit faster? Rather than expecting Chris's watts to drop as if he's in isolation and the only one on a faster bike. Potentially the same reason why pro races have gotten a bit quicker over the last 5ish years.

[@neilashton9459]

I had the same thought listening to this. And to measure if a bike is “faster” the power input would have to be a controlled constant.

[@neilashton9459]

Love the show but wish Jessi would fix his camera. The image is always reversed in the split screen shots ( but correct inthe solo shots).

[@nockee]

Great work pulling in Peak Torque. Such good information.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad it was helpful!

[@philipk4475]

Edit: great video! loved it, what a star line-up of guests you've got on here Additional comment: The Hefron Park analysis has a faulty premise. CMiller is able to do 305 W normalized for the race, and with a faster bike he's just going to be going faster for that same power. His placings might not have improved much (if at all), because his competition will have also been slowly upgrading to more aero bikes (presumably). What I'd like to see whether the average speed of these races has tended to increase over the years, because with constant normalized power that would be indicative of aerodynamics having improved overall.

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Great episode boys! Well done. Learned a lot about my own BS a few times in this. I gotta stop being a cycling diva lol

[@CycoWarriorx]

I enjoyed this discussion… probably one of the best you’ve done… I hope you have Alex on again…. 🍻

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

I hope so too!

[@gwinter00]

Hookless: thank you for confirming my suspicions. Still the best cycling talk podcast. 👏

[@charlesmansplaining]

I am generally one of those commenters that piss on every video I watch about bikes and tech, but I never have had the urge to be negative from watching Peak Torque, Hambini, or this channel. You guys are top rated IMO and this video was very captive and interesting for me. A lot of what was talked about in this video are things I have been saying for years and have been put down for for saying. It doesn't bother me because I have been cycling longer than most cyclists are of age. One thing I did listen to was the Italian idea of cycling comment and I totally found funny because I don't feel the Italians are all things good or do it the best anymore and people who think they do are fools. Italian bikes ones especially Colnago aren't any better than a cheap Chinese brand anymore. Great video, loved watching it.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks for that Charles. We were lucky to have PT spend as much time with is. Thanks for the positive comment 🙏🏼

[@philipk4475]

@PeakTorque I believe you misunderstood the analysis WRT the venge vias. It was 2 mins faster compared to what it replaced (Specialized Tarmac SL5 I believe). Then the venge was a smidge faster and the SL8 is claimed to be a smidge faster still. That's all with respect to the SL5 Tarmac, not the venge vias.

[@SinPhi666]

I think a good example of a large rider who focused on system aero was Adam Hansen. He would ride the Helium over the Noah with negative stem, wild drop to the 38cm bars all to get low and narrow. Did have the 35mm bars for stiffness/weight (sponsor), imagine that would be integrated now if it could be had with the negative stem.

[@johnnydarko8031]

you guys continually get the best guests KZbin has to offer. Officially THE BEST cycling podcast EVER. Kudos.

[@seligseligabc123]

Bloody heck I don’t remember a more engrossing informative discussion as this one in a long time. Spot on..🎉.

[@p504504]

Listened to the podcast but came here to comment: this is one of the best if not the very best episode of any cycling related podcasts I have ever heard... Up there with the early Silca (Josh) marginal gains episodes. So much free game from a guy with a lot of knowledge. ❤ I love you Nero Show keep up the good work!!!

[@rskng]

This show seriously needs a disclaimer of “we’re just guessing but try to keep it entertaining”.

[@danthxman]

Is it just me confused at the start of the vid? Is it not the venge spaceship with the dodgy brakes was 2 mins faster than the previous bike that was never named? So the SL8 is only 12 seconds faster than that original venge?

[@the318pop]

It was the Venge Vias. It was never compared to the original Venge upon release, McLaren and Specialized carefully chose to pit it against the Tarmac.

[@the318pop]

In other words, the SL8 is allegedly 33w faster than the Tarman SL4

[@marshallh9]

Jess Coyle may excel as a bike rider but not in the empirical sciences. As you point out, what is the original datum, a house brick!

[@lukasschlieker383]

Forgot to commend last week but just wanted to say the bikeotic channel is awesome and I’m glad he got a shoutout!

[@FaiscaaaH]

I hope you guys paid attention, "smaller, slimmer the front tire the faster you go" the rest is pure marketing :P I am still using my 23mm oldddddd continental GP4000 until they rot, after that i will test the GP5000 TR like Alex told us to do :)

[@mikelogan2684]

BEST SHOW so far Thanks PT,JC and CM

[@Fresh79999]

Alex is just someone I could listen to for days. Clever guy.

[@96golfcl]

Could listen to Alex talk bikes & relevant engineering practices all day. Stellar guest

[@user-wd8qm5hl8l]

I quite like PT in this format. Definitely one of the best episodes so far. Would love to hear Bikotic on the show and listen to Chris and Jesse pick his brain on frame geometry and western brands that are sharing moulds.

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Lol y’all are 100% talking about me with the whole “But tbis is made specifically for this frame!” *Looks over at my Reserve Wheel and Soloist*

[@mitchlabrador]

This was one of you best! Such an interesting conversation. Thanks guys.

[@KetzalSterling]

Superb. The cycling industry is a total mess. Endless unproven BS claims. The whole community benefits from people like Alex. This is the direction you guys should target. Real talk. No marketing/sponsor shilling. Actual science backed information. Same as what Jesse does with his training content.

[@psnSupergrobi10]

Great episode! This has become probably my fav cycling podcast in the last few weeks

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@Ghostina1]

On of the best shows i have seen in this channel! Peak Torque is elevating yours in Galaxies

[@mrwezbo]

Supurb job Chris with the show in general, but also the top-tier lineup of guests you've managed to get on recently. Shows the respect the youtube cycling crowd is showing the Nero show.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

We have been very lucky have these guys reaching out and keen to be apart of the show. Alex is a pure gent

[@discbrakefan]

Very interesting show this week guys. Alex clearly knows his stuff. Cycling is a really awesome sport because there’s so much to it, it has a discipline to suit everyone, there’s all sorts of tech, training and fashion and things to talk about and argue over. Cycling is life.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@cruzanbum3108]

I gave up on marketing hype years ago but hey- there’s one born every minute so it’s not gonna go away anytime soon.

[@MarcraM82]

Wow im amazed. Body position is more important than the bike. Groundbreaking stuff.

[@tomstephenson5452]

100 percent agree I have the 2018 old canyon aeroad rim brake, and I have ridden the new expensive disk brake bikes and the canyon is by far better and faster … aero, 7.0kg with ultrega di2

[@tonylo6013]

New fan of Alex as soon as he mentioned Winspace Hypers. 🎉🎉

[@bitchoflivingblah]

Re: LTWOO electronic groupset, Dave Arthur made a very good point in that if you add in the other things you need for a complete groupset, ie the cranks, the Shimano 105 Di2 is actually a better buy.

[@PeakTorque]

Yep completely agree on that one. Its too expensive to be a challenger

[@Lockeness86]

Since aerodynamics is so personal (and manufacture claims are so dubious), I test my gear a velodrome. I measure the watts required to ride at a given speed. Then do it again with the new gear at the same speed. If I don’t see meaningful watts saved, then I return or resell the product. Job done

[@volkervoit]

Awesome video and discussions, one of my favorite ones in past months 👍opposing to Jesse's recommendation I actually did a 740km / 25h non-stop ride on my Hyper 65mm wheels and survived 🙂

[@elchram]

Yeah no problem with mine either but I ride on smooth Swiss Tarmac so 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@604idan]

This is so much better than that over rated under rated knockoff

[@mbastos1000]

The best ever episode! Keep bring this other islander to the show! Three islanders on a talk show as hosts and another one watching them (Hawaii)!

[@Kazyole]

I'm also curious about how exactly the claimed aero gains are arrived at by specialized. I assume they always use best-case scenario testing procedures to make the numbers as large as possible and ignore real world practicalities. For example, SL8 vs SL7 they claim 4w from the integrated bar/stem alone (incidentally almost exactly their overall 40km ITT number). But probably 99% of riders who will ride that bar will put computer in front of the bar, which then moves the leading edge of the bike forward of the stem/bolt interface on the SL7. I would imagine if you tested both bars with a garmin mounted, you'd find less of an advantage for the fully integrated setup than if you tested without.

[@BurntToast1]

Well done gents, fantastic chat. Appreciate the editing effort, Chris - I imagine it’s not easy to achieve with the timing lag when chatting between continents, but you were able to edit that brilliantly. Also, Alex does know his audience.. winspace hyper wheels rider here 😂

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Hey BT, thanks for the kind words on the edit, I can confirm the lagging was ‘challenging’ 😉

[@elliot5044]

Only 10 minutes in and came to say that this is fucking wicked. You guys are improving each week and becoming the voice of cycling - keep up the wicked work and excellent guests

[@deltagchemistry12]

This pod cast slaps love the Nero show

[@Alexander-ye5hv]

"Maybe you're too sensitive, mate" - PT to Jesse Lol given the recent drama

[@MrMonkeyBoomBoom]

A few months back I bought a previous gen rim brake aeroad. Makes me feel better about my purchase

[@hockysa]

really love and respect what Alex is saying in regards to how we can't see aero and aero testing (caveat being Adrian Newey 🐐) as well as bringing in aero packages and how they interact with the whole system including the rider. The whole aero system was also something Newey mentioned in his book how to build a racecar. Very open, critical and inquisitive engineering view.

[@highfived]

My father has been working with carbon as a engineer for years all this bikes are extremely overpriced. Plus I know two bike owners who tell me what that bikes cost to Make and the crazy mark up sale prices in bike stores. I get this information as I work in finance for one of biggest banks in the world. The whole industry is a rip off. The only way the prices will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

"...will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices" And that will only happen if somehow marketing bullspeak stops working. PT Barnum was right! Marketing trumps everything - how else can you explain the success of Specialized and SRAM?

[@IsaiahsBabyDaddy]

Or if someone like yourself and your dad create a company that proves it can be done at a lower cost and still make a profit.

[@jonnythelegs2597]

This podcast scratched so many itches, great job guys. And yeah Hambini does love a bit of trolling but i have a couple of chats with him away from the youtube scene and he does come across as a sound guy to me, i dont drink but would happily have a pint or two with him. I kinda wish Mike Burrows was still around, he used to visit Bikefix a lot when i was there and had some great chats with him he was such a nice guy and i would love to put PT, Hambini, Dan Bigham, Allen Millyard and Mike Burrows in a room together and just listen to them put the world of cycling to rights and see what they could come up with. That would be my bike engineering dreamteam.

[@daviddjerassi]

Peak Torque i love not afraid to speak the truth no BS both Chris and Jesse could learn from this interview you cannot sit of the fence forever Guys this was a top video covering so many important aspects of the bike industry to day Thanks.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Wow! Haven’t had too many people complain we are not opinionated enough

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

@@ChrisMillerCyclingMaybe they mean how Chris will make a point or argument and Jesse disagrees and gives a counter or vice versa? So maybe as a group you’re “on the fence”? I think you two try hard to give both sides of the argument, even if it’s just one person playing devil’s advocate. I appreciate this. I love the show. Love the point / counterpoint, no.. but, yes.. and your awareness of your biases and attempts to try and understand other cyclists in their opinions/ biases/etc..

[@CrabgrassFarmer]

So good to have PeakTorque on the show. Great job! This was the bomb!

[@global_nomad.]

started watching but didnt think i'd stick for 90mins...and here I am at the end...great conversation, thanks to all....PS my University lectures are rambling observations too...but with solid knowledge and experience 😉

[@tobycolin6271]

I ride a 2016 synapse carbon with 60mm carbon wheels. My mates have all gone down the aero route. Over an hour of fast riding I have never been blown away by anyone on disc brakes. Canondales, venges, tarmacs, and ENondas seen them turn up and got to the coffee stop at the same time. If I ride my winter bike in aluminium wheels with my mates I have to draft longer and work harder as I’m about 2 -4 minutes slower on most of our courses.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Sounds great!

[@tobycolin6271]

@@ChrisMillerCycling I’m quite e happy on 25s on rim brake bikes but ride 30 , 30 on disc to dial out the high frequency buzz. Disc frames I have ridden are much stiffer and without a fat tyre I get numb hands and feet. Great show by the way really enjoys it

[@fnm441]

Great show, really appreciate PT's technical insight. Now for the flip-side of the 'no BS engineering tell it how it is' coin and get Dr Hambini and his wonderful coiffured bonnet on the show!

[@chiefwarmpaws]

I thought that's what the H word was going to be! 😅

[@fnm441]

Could have been.... Anyway, hookless, a solution to a problem which didn't exist!!

[@MichaelBoogerd]

I found this channel couple of years ago through Jesse's training videos and enjoyed the content as Nero Racing Team trying to crack Europe - but the re-branding to a chatshow/topical podcast style channel has me staying on waiting for every video. Great show guys!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Awesome, thank you!

[@tomasberka2124]

Simply and incredibly - this was awesome, guys. Could listen to you all for 8 hours...easily. So much learned, explained, discussed. Please make a follow-up or next episode with Alex in the future, if you can. Will be waiting for it.

[@the318pop]

It's worth noting that Specialized were very crafty in comparing the Venge Vias to the Tarmac SL(5?) on its release rather than the original Venge. PT rightly expressed doubt that an aero bike could be that much faster than another aero bike, indeed the 2019 Venge that followed made very modest claims. Jesse did allude to the comparison being to the Tarmac, where a big double digit saving might be expected.

[@TheeMortgageGuy]

Came here to say the same thing.. SL8 not 2+ faster than the Vias but the big round tube SL5

[@michaelsanders3395]

Alex the sound mixing on microphone is sensational. I could listen to your voice all day..

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Believe it or not, that was his MacBook Pro audio run through a noise gate and EQ on Final Cut Pro. I think he just has the perfect pod voice.

[@javiermartindiez9857]

Great great great podcast, we need Alex back again. Thanks Chris and Jesse!!!!!

[@db613]

We all love Alex! 👍🤙

[@derekkuhl]

How is it that I watched for an entire 90 minutes? Very nice work guys. Very interesting and thoughtful! Thanks. I guess I will be following @peaktorque now. 😂

[@cyc00000]

One of the best editions so far fellas. Thanks!

[@tubbytoast2]

If Dan Bigham saye its faster its faster !!! Great you had PT on love how he gets a bit nerdie about stuff but still makes it relatable for us average people 😊

[@myownname5]

I think there is some confusion in those times. What was probably meant to be said was that the Venge VIAS is 2 min faster than the SL4 or SL5 Tarmac. Peak torque explained the times as of the last discontinued Venge was 2 min faster than the Venge VIAS. Which its not, that is only 8 seconds faster... And then its not 33 watts, its just 3 watts faster (if you use 4sec per watt)

[@KikouLOL6702]

Thank you for this episode. I really enjoy the coversationnal yet educationnal style.

[@massimofi]

Best cycling show on YT. Actually anywhere. EDIT: You guys will be amazed when you check out comments on this vid. I did after you talked about it, and boom, only praising for such an interesting discussion.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

🙏🏼

[@andrewdoig4034]

Best and most compelling one yet. Thanks for putting this together.

[@georgesj9536]

On the wider rims (reserve's): isnt it like the Hope track bike idea? One group thinks everything as thin as possible but you'll have the rider back there so... and the other goes for:see it as one system and the wheel and fork influence the air around the legs etc etc

[@fritz324]

Awesome episode! Keep up the great work, it's always the one video of the week I'm looking forward to

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@jhl5303]

Very interesting, especially since you got in really deep in some subjects. What i like the most about you is that you don't repeat the mainstream marketing crap many goes on and contributing to creating a mutual agreed truth about stuff without questioning.

[@toxicexplorer1382]

Watching this ony my Canyon Aeroad 2018.

[@danielfrancis6900]

Great content! Best video yet. Excellent questions and discussion. It’d be great to see Peak in the regular rotation of guests.

[@MP48]

An aerobikes main benefit is that the stack is lower so the rider can run the stem more slammed for a more aero position if they can handle it

[@generalruler]

Great chat guys really educative and encompassing, the feedback I'm getting from peers, officials, industry and the general public all across many demographics is that you don't have to be autistic to be a road cyclist, but also, you are.

[@HarishChouhan]

I’m glad you are bring smart people to chat with.

[@nhabben1]

Aren’t some of the aero claims on many aero bikes in the past include narrowing the bars and position ? The 2 min claim might be a tarmac 42 cm bars vs 38 cm venge. This assumes the OEM isn’t lying.

[@andybals216]

Wow ..that was the best I've ever watched on any KZbin video..well done

[@greg4318]

Congrats - the channel has come of age, get Hambini on next 😬😬😬

[@lisashiela9137]

Awesome video fellas. Loved the topics...

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@MrMattie725]

I have to confirm the denial of the 'bike shop effect'. In Belgium we are so densely populated, and we have so many shops, that no one who knows anything about bikes or even just had a discussion with a friend would base his decission on which brand 'the local shop' sells.

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

Glad you got PT on! Have him on again soon and longer! Im working through his back catalog and heard him make a reference along the lines of: This the type of thing that gets Jesse from the Nero Show all fired up. And I thought, ahh! He is aware of the boys at Nero.

[@stefanozurich]

Great show. Specs thanks to @PeakTorque

[@MrYAMAHA32177]

Kudo's everyone, Chris and Jessie brought out a very interesting side of Alex (Peak Torque)

[@Simply1ism]

Il y a longtemps, in the French sense Shimano broke in with a floating jockey wheel for gear changes. Kind of a technical patent thing and wiped the floor with Suntour! At that point one component then the next changed the market.... Now manufacturing probably has meant there is a lot of players. Let's see.....

[@xuchenglin6256]

This video is invaluable. 100% agree the new bikes is a rip off. Didn't know Alex actually worked in China, to answer his question why those Chinese young brands doesn't do domestic (China) market, I have to give you guys some background information about the bike market in China. Biking is old and norm in China, but CYCLING is new and premium. Back in the days before 2000s, there's no private cars, everyone rely on what you guys call "dutch bikes" to get transported. You go to the grocery store with your bike, you pick your kids with your bike, you commute to work with your bike. I guess you guys who never experience that have to imagine something like your 1920s or 1930s when cheap cars were not yet available in the West. That's what China was like till the 1990s and early 2000s. This domestic bike market is completely disconnected from the global market, and is priced within its own pricing system of China. Interestingly, an average guy in US makes $3000-5000, and respectively the bike price is perceived as $500 cheap bike, around $1000 budget bike, $2000 entry-level, $3000-5000 mid-range, $8000 premium, and $10000+ super bike. In China it's actually the SAME number but only the unit being different. In China an average guy makes RMB¥ 3000-5000, and the bikes are perceived similarly, RMB 1000-2000 good bike, that's mostly people's budget in mind BEFORE knowing the GLOBAL price system. RMB 3000-5000, this guy is serious. RMB 8000, this guy is a pro. RMB 10000+??? This guy is insane. RMB 20000-50000??? Rich guys are just crazy... Wait... how can you make a bike that is good for just $500???? Actually you can. You guys think you know GIANT and Merida, NO, you DON'T. The same GIANT sells millions of bikes of RMB 1000-2000 all across the China. You guys never saw these bikes, they are alien territory for you guys. These are XC MTB style bikes, with 3x8 or something drivetrain. Every Chinese teenagers have one of them. Because in China you don't drive a car until you are 18, so to move "freely" you have to got some kind of bike like this in your teenage life. That's the "norm" price for a "good changeable-gear bike" for most Chinese people. Those international students from China who got into US, UK, AU, one of the first things that shocked them is the price of GIANT bikes. They just can't believe what they saw. Knowing this, consider you are those young brands, how would you approach the domestic market??? People who can afford RMB 10000+ are in the same mentality as those who want to spend $10000 in your side, they actually don't care much about the cose, they just want the best, they don't want the Chinese craps. For the majority market below, it's already saturated, people just need a bike to get around, no need for these geeky stuff, and you can't compete with GIANT. Actually the online direct sale to western world is the only way out. The road cycling with a bike of RMB ¥10000+ ($2000+) in China is a new and premium thing... It's a rich sport for less... As for the competitive part of culture? It's near zero. There's no market for such thing in domestic market. What sells at your side as "budget" is "luxury" in China. And even Chinese people don't regard anything "made in China" as "luxury". To sell something as "luxury", you have to be Italian, Switzerland, Germany... Chinese young brands just don't stand a chance.

[@edwarddruitt7521]

Yeah Im with most here, you absolutely killed this one. Great guest and you guys are clearly starting to settle into the feel of your podcast well. Had to laugh at irony of Alex telling you no one listens yo video over 10mins as you and him punch out an awesome 1:30!

[@TheMASDrummer]

The collab we needed