The Brand - Episode 6 - The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

[@Window4503]

"You can't be abused for a long time and still think straight; doesn't matter how smart you are." That really gave me pause. I wasn't in a situation involving Mars Hill, but I did work under an abusive Christian leader. I remember slowly losing my sense of sanity, all the while thinking that if I just tried harder, just got smarter, just remained one step ahead of him...was just a better Christian employee, I could avoid further abuse. It wasn't until he yelled at me for what someone else did when he could plainly see that it couldn't have been my fault that I realized I wasn't dealing with a logical or Christlike person at all.

[@js1817]

This is like my 3rd time listening to this series. It's interesting hearing about Driscoll's moral failure. It also shows how Christianity can be intensely influenced by culture and current events. American Christianity, evangelical, post-9/11, progressive, conservative, 90s, 2000s, individualistic, white, protestant Christianity. There are so many Christianities, so many broken expressions of the Church, modulated thru a plethora of times, places, and people.

[@CasperLCat]

As a 60 yr old man, I’m both heartbroken and disturbed by the appeal Driscoll held for these younger men who I would describe as “broken fanboys”. I see across our culture this rush to submit to a charismatic (and inevitably narcissistic) leader-celebrity, and it’s the same whether in or out of the church. Our nation is incredibly vulnerable right now to demagogues and cult formation, of which the MAGA Trump political cult is only the most visible. But this is in NO way just a phenomenon of the political or theological right, although the Calvinist all-controlling God and TULIP system certainly appeal to this hunger for masculine authority and philosophical certainty. Mars Hill, Furtick’s Elevation Church, Bickle’s IHOPU, Bethel Redding, and the ARC megachurches all reflect this same vulnerability.

[@js1817]

Yeah. Young men want a strong father to lead them and make sense of the world. Driscoll got some of it a bit right, but overall was a moral failure and not worthy to lead. He was also preaching his own ideas more than Christianity, per se.

[@greglogan7706]

@Casperi, Yeah the young especially the young without a strong spiritual Father Figure are really easy to entice their so gullible and ignorant I know because I was one of those 20 year old gullible ignorant people when I walked into a Pentecostal fundamentalist called taught by another self aggrandizing liar When I walked into Mars Hill Ballard 20 plus years later I immediately recognized The Same Spirit

[@brackishnz]

It's funny that he mention's Shredders lair, referencing the 1990 TMNT movie. When you think about Shredder in that movie, he creates a place where kids with absent or abusive parents can come and feel a part of something bigger. He gives them fun but also eventually teaches them discipline. He becomes a father figure to them. The problem is that he is doing it to his own ends. To enrich himself with the fruits of their criminal acts. Of course this is only an analogy and I'm not saying Driscoll is a crime boss. Interesting how well it fits though.

[@careyvinzant]

Josh Harris should never have been allowed to publish a book about relationships at the age of twenty-one. The publishers who profited by imprudently disseminating the ill-conceived opinions of an immature and uneducated believer will give answer to God for pursuing money rather than His purpose.

[@Window4503]

27? That's generous. He was actually only 21.

[@careyvinzant]

@@Window4503 Thanks for the correction. 👍

[@atennisn]

Listening to this series after the Mike Bickle IHOPKC fiasco. I'm trying to make sense of why do I still seek out pastors to listen to after all of the many failures in the field. crazy - the cult of personality. #IHOPKC.

[@greglogan7706]

The fact is they don't know anything that you don't know or can't find out with just a little bit of research. None of these Evangelical preachers are Scholars. I recommend actually listen to a genuine Bible scholars from a non-evangelical School. Now that everybody is able to read, this sort of priest craft that Driscoll and all these other Evangelical Talking Heads engage in is superfluous. What they'll never do is teach you how to engage in critical analysis especially of their own thinking

[@jordanheyvaert6204]

Really enjoying this series. Mark had really gotten my attention as a young adult in 2010 since he made fun of stupid church traditions as I'd grown up in. I was sad to see Mars Hill collapse, but never really understood why.

[@Joey-b8w]

What about the stupid church tradition of the cult of personality that was MH and his online groupies?

[@jordanheyvaert6204]

@@Joey-b8w there certainly was a large online following.

[@lizardbreathbiz988]

26:33 Pop off girl, she describes abusive dependence so perfectly

[@Zaiderr]

The guy at the beginning talking about how he platformed Driscoll and then was saying how he hated how mark said he was sort of a big deal is funny. Guy is literally saying he essentially made him.

[@js1817]

Literally and essentially are opposite modifiers that cancel each other out. Also, the guy was straightforward in his account, not grandiose.

[@davidward5225]

Say “like” one more time, Jesse.

[@jameswooff3698]

Good lord, the moron at the beginning that talked about “Platforming” Driscoll was insufferable. He is giving himself way too much credit as I’m sure Driscoll would have found someone to load audio files into the website. Also, those sermons DID a ton of good for more people than will ever be known, including me, as I was an avid consumer of Driscolls sermons about a decade ago. Many of his sermons had an incredibly positive impact on my life and I am still benefiting from decisions I made, that were influenced by sermons I heard Mark preach.

[@titanschannel585]

I think this positive side is why the narrator in the beggining talks about God working in broken places

[@BryanZug]

Hi from the moron - Shalom to you :)

[@js1817]

I think he was being morally sensitive and not grandiose. Good for him for reflecting on his actions in the early days of the internet and of Mars Hill. Glad you found Driscoll's sermons helpful. Like the producer of this show says, good things still happened thru Driscoll's work.

[@brackishnz]

Well you clearly didn't listen properly. He didn't just load the files, he advised him on pretty much everything related to his branding.

[@greglogan7706]

James. Is that why you behave like such a jerk?

[@Star-dj1kw]

✅

[@novadawg6913]

Bringing Joshua Harris in for an interview is just so disappointing. He was a grifter whilst pretending to be a Christian and is a grifter now that he’s anti-Christian. People need to stop giving him a platform.

[@paulcummings287]

I'd like to have a conversation with Jesse Bryan and see if there ever was a time that he really knew Christ, or was it just that he knew his mom's version of Jesus and then Mark's later on...?

[@ora_et_labora1095]

Episode six and still haven’t heard about the toxic culture everyone is talking about. Driscoll seems like a prideful and opportunistic man but still 🤷‍♂️

[@GaryNave]

You'll never hear a podcast by CT as similarly condemning and critical of Bethel. .. just as you would never hear a report from NPR pointing out with such alacrity the errors of the Democratic party. This entire podcast has unfortunately been an ideological hit piece and exercise in kicking Mark Driscoll while he's down. Just take note and how none of the conclusions of his bad behavior ever comeback to anything but his having conservative values.

[@GaryNave]

@@Spacecadet_-mo6ew okay.. derpy derp. Try rereading the op

[@djublonskopf]

Really? I'm going through this for the first time right now, but it seems like it's been pretty fair overall so far...and I haven't really seen "conservative values" attributed to *anything* yet. Narcissism, maybe, and just being young and inexperienced at handling so much fame and power so quickly, but not "conservative values". I see an attempt to understand the history of some big movements in the last two decades of the church, understand outside influences (like media and tech) that have shaped church reach and mission and culture, and I have seen a cautionary tale for other people in positions of leadership and authority...I've already recommended this to a pastor friend of mine just as a "there's a lot to learn from this here." What am I missing, since it's apparently so clear to you?

[@Bev4Drawing]

@@djublonskopf Yeah this is my first time too and most of it has been showing how genuine intention but a lack of checks and balances can lead to these bad circumstances and cause people to miss red flags in ministry.

[@Angry_Toe]

Hard to see how he would be “down” with a $600k severance. I don’t think the rant about women needing to perform oral sex and his “smoking hot wife” exemplifies conservative values at all. I wouldn’t listen to that sermon with my parents. You should give some example if you want people to take your comment seriously.

[@hanssvineklev648]

@virginialockwood2735. Having Mike Cosper do a documentary on Mark Driscoll is like getting Leighton Flowers to do one on John Piper. Or Rush Limbaugh to do one on Hillary Clinton. It just shouldn’t be done. Even though it might produce some exhilarating insights, they will be so mixed and muddled with the presuppositions of the narrator as to be near impossible to extricate. If you don’t see the problem, it can only be that you know very little about the players involved or the fractious politics within the hodge-podge that is still labeled “Evangelicalism.”

[@isaakleillhikar8311]

Inviting a psycholos’gist. Alwayse a big mistake. Imagine Mark Driscoll saying this. « You can’t be abused and think straight. It doesn’t matter how smart you are. » You would have included that clip in the INTRO.

[@js1817]

Do you just hate psychologists? I'm only now realizing that there's a lot of Christians of a sort who seem to hate psychology.