Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2

[@hosinlau]

Outline: 1:10 - Universality of consciousness across species 3:25 - First aware of consciousness 5:15 - What is consciousness 6:05 - Conscious machines & the nature of consciousness 13:40 - Why do we need consciousness 15:10 - Measuring consciousness 19:10 - Panpsychism 25:20 - Does intelligence require consciousness 33:00 - Special aspects of human consciousness 34:10 - Religion 36:45 - Root of being 39:05 - Free will 41:00 - Subconscious 45:20 - Literature 47:00 - Timescale of conscious beings 52:45 - Advice for AI researchers 55:20 - Future research on claustrum

[@appletree6741]

thank you

[@ashishrathi4916]

Thank you

[@prisar]

Thank you for putting the timestamps

[@miquelrius1694]

The question in min. 31:15 about the role of the fullness or an extensive range of experience is possibly underestimated. And the answer too poor. Humans have approximately 100 neurotransmitter or so. They contribute to a fullness of experience that make them (also animals) sentient beings. To ignore this is possibly to ignore a way of giving an AI the possibity to be sentient. May be this is an essential factor for consciousness. Even if this can be simulated, it may be a step further to consciousness for a machine. The Portuguese scientist Damasio did great research in a related field. And what if scientists create accidentally a sick "psyche" which has the power to reach the terminal of all users.

[@cupajoesir]

Lex your videos are an oasis in the youtube desert. Thank you so much for sharing all of this awesome content.

[@ebanfield]

Lex might try to speak more distinctly.

[@agrojester1156]

I'm on episode #2 of watching all episodes in order.

[@danielmcdougall5624]

@@agrojester1156 Same

[@travisfitzwater8093]

@@agrojester1156 uly

[@travisfitzwater8093]

@@agrojester1156I'llplyok loo uilkooo uuuoly

[@shaunpriddle3404]

Christof would make the ultimate "Die Hard" baddie ! Lex: need a round 2 buddy , this guy is awesome 😀

[@erdinn]

Lex, I can‘t thank you enough for creating high quality content like this. Can we somehow support you?

[@LIFEID.health]

Lex. I work 12 hours a day .... and you have now occupied 2 more hours of my day the past 2 weeks with these damn pod casts of yours :) All the best,

[@boouyayme]

8 hours of my day!!! I just started from podcast #1 because I can’t wait for the new ones

[@M6uitar]

As a student of psychology and AI this has been amazingly valuable to me. Thank you greatly, Lex!!

[@Agnostic_Mind]

I really curious how your life going cause your life choices is on trend right now

[@sprinkdesign7170]

I SO appreciate Lex Friedman for giving such a solid foundation for the understanding of machine learning (in its many forms), and further, how we might approach AGI from an engineering perspective. His course MIT 6.S099: Artificial General Intelligence, and his complementary course on Self Driving Cars, have enlightened me in so many ways, and I applaud his choice of guest lecturers. I also applaud him for 'speaking and enquiring' outside the discipline. Thanks, Lex for bringing this to us. More power to you, MIT and 6.S099, and I look forward to hearing more from you as your career progresses, and who knows, perhaps one day working with you!

[@FlyingRagilein]

That's hands down the best interview I saw for a long long time. Thanks for posting!

[@metafuel]

I fully agree. Great questions and perfect answers.

[@ericzong1189]

same.i can't remember alot of times that i enjoyed a more exciting 60mins than this one!

[@thomaskellar5148]

I had a definite experience when I was about 8 where I suddenly realized that "I exist". I have remembered that all my life.

[@stiggystone79]

Care to elaborate? I'm not sure I've ever had a single experience that I could say was my 'boom, wow I'm a conscious being' moment. Curious what it was for you, if you don't mind. I'm also aware your comment is 11 months old so you may not ever get this but I'll try anyway 🙂

[@Vraielibertez]

i had the luck to experience floating in tank, and that was one of this moment like he explained... of course, i "know" but this is the result of experiences but like in a tanl, never !

[@Vraielibertez]

@@kirilchi me 2 , crap and incredible knowledge on youtube

[@mephistosmistress6384]

I found about you a few days ago when I saw the Whitney Cummings podcast. Having just finished my studies in IT, like a lot of people my age, I figured that I have no clue where I am and what I want to do. I want to know everything and yet I don't know what but I do know that I don't know anything which made me tap in one place. You pushed my back a bit with these podcasts and considering the lack of motivation and the mental state that I was before I found this it seems that you have kind of pushed me in a direction of what seems interesting to me and what I would like to know more about. I just wanted to thank you for that and I hope you know how much people appreciate what you do. So, yeah, thanks. I don't do emotional comments often and English is my second language so sorry about possible mistakes.

[@hellofriend8446]

Having recently taken a relatively deep dive into Vedanta, specifically the Advaita tradition, much of the first half--indeed, it is all I've watched thus far--of this conversation can be answered according to the principles found there, namely that consciousness is experience itself, the foundation of all being.

[@hellofriend8446]

Commenting on my own comment--a pathway leading to Hell, perhaps 🙏 However, Koch gives almost the absolute rationale for Advaita, when stating (at ~37:00) that there seems to be these two "things," namely the physical and consciousness, but that the physical is only experienced in--or reveals itself of--the awareness of consciousness. Namaste 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@ElEstudioNomade]

@@hellofriend8446 I've been following Francis Lucille. This is great, I would love him interviewed by Lex.

[@SomeOnSunday]

These conversations are so inspiring. Thank you for making the MIT experience so accessible. I've never heard an explanation of dreaming like 11.46secs. Obviously only one of Christof's incredible insights. Wow!

[@deeplearningpartnership]

I found this interview very thought-provoking, thank you Lex and Koch.

[@Pmc07AyeUrDa]

One of the most intelligent interviews on consciousness I've heard. Thanks Lex for providing these podcasts!

[@guillermobrand8458]

consciousness explained, and more facebook.com/guillermo.b.deisler/posts/10222050618470453

[@bengun6768]

37.00 in the flow . Thank you for sharing all these interesting visitors and your conversations. Kept my brain from getting moldy with presumptuous idleness, at least for now.

[@sascharankin2780]

Fantastic. These interviews are a wonderful resource. Thank you so much Lex and MIT. I would love to see John Searle or Eliezer Yudkowsky.

[@jaakdefour7741]

I watched a lot of Christof's interviews, this is one of the best, congrats

[@danieljdick]

I love this interview. When Lex mentioned "bug vs feature", the first thing I thought is that these presume an intention, and I found that interesting. It begs the question regarding the nature of the "intender".

[@runggp]

fantastic interview with very deep and essential questions about consciousness. so enjoy it!

[@finsfann2]

I will definitely be coming back to listen to this again in the future. He seems like an incredibly fascinating and brilliant person. Thanks for the content, Lex.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

He may be brilliant, but he is irritating in his hyperactive presentation.

[@huckelberryfizzle]

Fantastic podcast. I had to double check my playback speed setting, I thought it was set at 1.25x

[@MrRobikshrestha]

Qn: What discipline should I take on? Is it neuroscience, cognitive science, philosophy, computer science? Ans: YES :-)

[@MrRobikshrestha]

With r That's impressive. How did you manage to study all of those aspects? And what about the mystical experiences he was talking about?

[@johndoe-zk7pn]

no one asked u. go back to the woodwork u pompous troll.

[@Christian-mn8dh]

Robik Shrestha research what interests you in all the different fields.

[@prenuptials5925]

@@MrRobikshrestha Right now I'm studying all those listed. How? A lot of time, and borderline crazy determination.

[@prenuptials5925]

@@honestexpression6393 I guess either. University's overrated, you can take tons of free courses or do MIT OCW

[@danielbigham]

It's so rare that I get to listen to a human speak that is so insightful into consciousness -- many intelligent people seem to want to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist, etc. Really enjoyed listening to Christof.

[@Magani79]

Christof is brilliant. what a great episode, thank you!

[@franklulatowskijr.6974]

Can’t believe I just came across this interview. I read The Quest For Consciousness not long after it came out. Needless to say, Koch became out of my heroes.

[@samfrancis1873]

Consciousness is an addictive state

[@Hexanitrobenzene]

Professor Koch has a distinct manner of speaking which is reminiscent of speaking while angry. And yet, Lex managed to get a smile out of him at 44:15 :)

[@Cm95080]

Thank you for your beautiful energy. ❤

[@astroboy01]

Thank you so much ... I really think that talking about these deep topics as well as God, religion and all other stuff makes a great and rich discussion ... Awesome interview !

[@Ferrari76]

Thanks for all of these videos! I never wanted to study when i was young. Now i am learning a lot

[@prestoX]

One of the most brilliant talks in Lex's Podacast.

[@michaelsage6649]

Two of my favorite thinkers. Great show guys!

[@williamramseyer9121]

Fantastic interview! I especially loved the questions and answers about the place of literature in the study of science.

[@sandrarodgera]

I love listening to your voice . And you ask really good questions.

[@yossimolcho841]

Lex your channel is amazing, thank you.

[@ManInTheBigHat]

This interview series is great.

[@Asif-ii9dz]

Thanks Lex for another great video and what an amazing guest.

[@karinamendoza7787]

Best Christof Koch interview - Have read his books, just finished his latest one! All great! May I suggest a chat with Ed Boyden?

[@PeteNalty63]

This episode was excellent!

[@elsawiegers1093]

you've come a long way, looking back to this one! keep going!!

[@danielmagner7932]

Thanks for doing this Lex, you are a great interviewer! I love this format. To really explore human consciousness it is useful to have (subjective) experience with non-ordinary states. I highly recommend checking out the book Stealing Fire and trying some of the techniques/technologies contained within e.g. mindfulness meditation, sensory deprivation, holotropic breathwork, psychedelics, and brainwave entrainment.

[@MrSharkman19]

Excellent interview. His accent was a bonus

[@shagablabas]

Awesome content, thank you very much!

[@SabreenSyeed]

This is such an important topic. Koch and Tononi's Integrated Information Theory is such a fascinating idea. Thanks for this interview

[@Dazzer1234567]

Great interview!.... By the way, don't put tbe guest in front of a large window, the camera will expose for the window and you get your guest in silhouette!..... Or manually expose the camera to the guest...

[@humbertosequeira1536]

Thank you Cristof and Lex for such an interesting interview, 4 years later it is still very relevant. I think humanity needs to develop AI but adding the empathy piece as well as having a better idea of how our brain works.

[@brandomiranda6703]

Dont forget this is professor Poggio’s first student! Demis Hasabis is also Professor Poggio’s student. Perhaps you should invite prof Poggio ;) Director of CBMM MIT

[@erdinn]

Brando Miranda interesting!

[@Lagruell]

Amazing interview, quite inspiring too !

[@amandamorriss3658]

5 years down the road and those captions look antedeluvian!!

[@weizili7264]

The best video I enjoyed during this course. In the future, how about inviting a philosopher to talk about such a topic?

[@davidgrim9853]

Love this conversation! ❤️

[@sharonhearne5014]

I love the question about reading literature: I could read before kindergarten and my mother belonged to a monthly book club which offered mostly fictional books such as many famous classics. I would plead to read a selection after she had read it and she allowed me to read those selections. These novels presented fictional lives of people in vast diversity and whereas I did not fully understand sexual aspects clearly one of the most striking aspects I discovered was all the various religions, or lifestyles or aspects such as wealth vs poverty. By the time I began to be raised in my family’s strict fundamentalist Christian lifestyle my views of that special view of Christianity had already been compromised by my already generalized view of the variety of world-wide religious practices and human lifestyles.

[@digitalzoul57]

I think your channel is one the most useful channels in the entire youtube

[@cmag8924]

There are a couple of applied scientist I would really like to see/listen interviewed by you. Some of them like to stay outside of public view, but your profile and track record of pleasing conversations might convince them: - Edward Thorpe - Margaret Hamilton - Jim Simons Keep up th egood work!

[@lzszl]

This interview really reminded me of John Vervaeke's series on consciousness. It would be very interesting to see you interview him! He works at the University of Toronto, not sure if you or he can make the trip, but a Skype call would suffice my thirsty mind. Best regards

[@chopsuey9617]

You set a very high bar back in 2018, Lex!

[@paulzerby5736]

Marvelous subject, marvelous man! I stumbled onto the 18.06 open course a few years back; Professor Strang really opens the subject up to the average math fan. Thanks for interviewing him.

[@GMC2001]

Amazing Lex, thank you

[@sa5cha63]

Its an incredibly feeling watching this beautiful interview now in 2023 with all the advantage in the field of AI like ChatGPT, Bard and others 😅

[@SpazEternal]

I started your podcast at Elon lol. So riveting now gonna watch all your podcasts, here I am at 2 now so far. Thx

[@lorenzocabrini]

Hey, I'm doing exactly the same! Started yesterday.

[@JoshuaBoladuro]

Same gonna watch 3 now :)

[@GodofStories]

wow the 2nd pod ever!

[@Lady-in-Red]

Book list for this Christof Koch podcast. Thanks for asking about aliens immediately :) - The Quest for Consciousness: A Neurobiological Approach by Christof Koch - Consciousness: Confessions of a Romantic Reductionist by Christof Koch - The Diving-Bell and the Butterfly by Jean-Dominique Bauby - The Black Cloud by Colin Swatridge and Fred Hoyle - Solaris by Stanisław Lem - The Invicible by Stanisław Lem

[@aleksar6755]

What an amazing conversation

[@Arjun-jt7yb]

awesome knowledgeable talk.

[@hazelcheetham620]

Thanks so much.How lucky we are,

[@stmandl]

Thanks for sharing this.

[@sebastianavalos2055]

Many many thanks Lex!

[@pisoiorfan]

Regarding the black hole simulation argument.. Airplane "simulates" birds and actually flies. Robotic animal "simulates" both a dog and a human hand. Walks around, opens doors and grabs beer cans. There has to be a distinction between a purely virtual simulation and functional replication. In case of consciousness we won't be able to tell as long as we can't define/detect/describe consciousness in general without referencing our own subjective experience. .. And let's not forget the entire conscious experience as we perceive it is not actually the "real thing" but a virtuality "simulated" in the brain.

[@jeremycripe934]

You're talking about outwards behavior rather than internal experience. An airplane can fly but it doesn't have any of the internal experience of a bird whose consciousness is stimulated to fly when it sees a tasty worm or an oncoming car or hears a mating call.

[@M6uitar]

The thing is, simulated black hole has simulated gravity... seems pretty obvious. So we have causal powers in our tiniverse, and so on

[@lzszl]

Simulates or emulates? Simulation is a copy of the system, by means of a conceptual model, emulation is a functional equivalent of the system. You are not flying when playing flight simulator x, but an airplane does fly as birds do.

[@lzszl]

And as for our conscious experience, our brains only simulate it in sleep, when we wake it generates a coherent stream, negotiated by our experiences. Thus two people can see differently looking at the same thing. However, the underlying principles remain the same, with the exceptions of physiologically aberrant cases.

[@REDPUMPERNICKEL]

@@jeremycripe934 There is no internal experience (or external) because experience is an abstract notion thus without material existence or location. Are you perhaps referring to the substrate? You assume a bird is conscious but can't know that for a fact (and when Thomas Nagel assumes a bat is conscious he makes the same mistake). Bat or bird, it's unlikely they are what we mean by conscious. They have no language, no metaphors, no culture and no civilization to navigate. What need have they to be conscious? Do we think that instinct is a kind of conscious? A flying robot could do what they do. No insult to birds or bats intended. And we eat them. Terrible to be eaten conscious.

[@bensibree-paul7289]

Awesome. It's a real privilege to be able to hear the thoughts from so many great minds, thanks very much.

[@Jaroen66]

Great series and awesome that you have Chrstof Koch in this series! I'd like to see Jeff Hinton as well; he has had some great ideas regarding approaches to AI that are inspired by the function of the brain (capsule networks etc.)

[@raigohar]

beautiful explanation of Consciousness

[@GodsCommunity]

Blessings for All. 💭

[@rjt98]

what word does he say at 55:34 ? Theres this structure called " ....." really would like to know, but can't understand his accent.

[@Gredias]

Claustrum!

[@AllBecomesGood]

This was a very interesting one!

[@brendenhamilton]

Another great interview. Keep up the great work. I love this moment 38:28 dropping gems - so that's not helpful? no. Love this.

[@viewer7200]

Whenever I hear German accent, I automatically consider this person to be very intelligent.

[@timmbrockmann959]

I´m german and would actually find it hard to speak with such a strong german accent ;)

[@viewer7200]

@@timmbrockmann959 That is 'German humour' which is another story.

[@clarifier09]

Excellent conversation! Now that I see that this video was made over a year ago, I am wondering if your views on consciousness as an attribute of Being has had any evolution?

[@GalenMatson]

Dark matter is lost socks. With all the intelligence in this conversation, that's the insight I'm taking away.

[@robertorodrigomasia]

I´m going introduce an idea that I haven´t heard yet from all the brilliant people that speaks in Lex Podcast. This is about the nature of conciousness. For me the truly nature of what is commonly understood as conciousness is memory. Memory + complex language make us able to talk with others and with ourself is what give us humans the feeling or being "ME" . My intelligence serve the aim of my needs and desires. This is clear. But it is the "me" that remembers what I did yesterday, what I like and what I don´t like, what I want to do (a projection here can be understood as "remembering the future"), this rememberer/ projecterer "me" who settles the base for the sense of self awareness

[@REDPUMPERNICKEL]

Yes! By Jove I think you've got it! It is my self that is conscious. I can't imagine something other that could possibly be conscious, unless that something is also a self. Seven months have passed since you submitted your comment. Have you elaborated the idea? Do you find your self like me, more convinced than ever?

[@gedankenthesis]

At 50:14 he mentions a novel by Stanislaw Lem named "the victorious". I looked for it but didn't find such a novel. I think he is referring to the novel "the invincible". Can anyone confirm, please? thanks.

[@ToyTerror]

Did you find and read it?

[@gobbo6706]

Yes, English name is The Invincible.

[@briandecker8403]

Federico Faggin would be a great addition to your course - on several levels.

[@jammystraub488]

That was excellent.

[@ronniedarko8830]

This is the only youtube-channel that makes me feel stupid. I love it.

[@migzleon4047]

Emergence..!!! Conciousness will find the way...

[@lewisb8634]

Thanks for uploading as always Lex, this content is fantastic. I'm very interested in the point about a complete, ideal, perfect simulation of the human brain NOT being conscious. Stepping back (nearly as far as possible) isn't consciousness a function of the arrangement of the atoms in this finite volume we call a skull? It't not in the air, it's not stored in a device we keep safe at home, surely our consciousness - whatever it is - exists (however it exists etc) inside our heads. By extension, wouldn't a perfect simulation of a human brain, complete with artificial neurons that interact just like those in a human brain, also experience consciousness. Isn't it an emergent property of the interactions between neurons? If not, in the physical world that we live in, what could it be? Thanks again Lex!

[@jonyxy777]

consciousness is fundamental and not caused by the brain, as demonstrated by quantum physics. particles - which the brain is composed of - don't even exist before conscious observation. look up the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment for evidence of that. the brain accompanies the working of fundamental consciousness, but does not create it, in the same way a CD encodes the music, but isn't the music, or a TV set receives a broadcast, but isn't the broadcast.

[@lewisb8634]

But we live in a physical world? How can it not be caused by the brain? I'm still amazed by this idea!

[@jonyxy777]

we don't live in a physical world, we live in a virtual reality, as many scientists are now coming to say, that's computed by consciousness/spirit/god. there's no real objective things in real space-time, it's an experience in consciousness made of consciousness, which is created by conscious observation, as shown by quantum physics. since you are consciousness, your experience of the world is actually you, modulated according to information you receive every planck time from the consciousness server, like the movie playing in a cinema is modulated light according to information, the film reel. the brain is an image/graphical representation of information processing going on in consciousness, like a video game is an image of information processing going on in the computer's cpu. you may wish to check out the simulation hypothesis and tom campbell on this :)

[@brujua7]

I interpret what he is saying as the follow: The lack of casual power comes from the fact that it would be a simulation done by software on top of silicon gates, on the other hand if it is done with artificial neurons in which matter interacts just like in our brains then its level of integrated information would mean consciousness. The Integrated Information Theory predicts very low level of integrated information on silicon gates arrangements, just like it predicts low level of integrated information on the Cerebellum (contrasting well with real life where the Cerebellum despite having almost %80 of all neurons doesn't seem to contribute much to consciousness experience) So, if in your experiment matter interacts just like in our brain is not really a simulation, it is the actual thing. Like in the example of the simulation of the black hole, the computer does not create similar forces in the world because matter is not interacting like in a real black hole. I don't know if I made myself clear because English is no my first language.

[@ricomajestic]

This guy is very good and quite passionate about his work too. Very interesting!

[@DistructiveElements]

27:09 Damn it man. You are breaking my mind

[@E1N101]

Yea. So fundamental and often overlooked these days.

[@johnr3936]

He insists this but lacked a good explanation as to why. He assumes that we must be real and anything that isn't us is not.

[@zumulko]

On my way to uni. Same path every day. But that morning I woke up (I am lucid dreamer) with a strong memory of somebody from my distant past whom I know very well (I am a single child who enjoyed imaginative friend company). One by one I excluded my childhood friends who didn't match the memory in this or that detail. I was puzzled: Who else am I missing? Until it hit me: I was trying to remember myself.

[@AllBecomesGood]

like you looked at yourself from the eyes of the imaginative friend? so that you would've been both yourself & the imaginative friend? I'm struggling a bit to understand the remembering yourself bit. I'm trying to think for myself, but there's really a lack of memory for, not like I wasn't conscious in the past, but I just dont remember a lot about being a kid

[@WhoisTheOtherVindAzz]

Great interview. Love hearing all these different perspectives. I don't think a strong enough case was made for the claim that a computer simulation of a human brain can't be conscious. Maybe it can't, but the argument that just because there might be functions of the human brain that require special hardware to get the simulation to have human experiences isn't an argument against its ability to have any other type of experience. Also, if it rains in a simulated world, then your computer might not get wet, but the world it simulates will and the state of the physical machine running the simulation changes. I personally think too much weight is put on the word 'simulate' here, i.e. it is a word, not the thing; I don't know how different fields define a 'simulation' exactly, but here it sounds like using it accidentally "forces" us to reach a certain conclusion. It would be interesting to hear from Douglas Hofstadter or Marcus Hutter sometime :)

[@brujua7]

It is a topic that will be of great importance in the future as we get more close to machines that give the appearance of consciousness. We need some way to asses Consciousness and that is What IIT (Integrated Information Theory) tries to provide. From other videos on the topic of IIT I can interpret what he is trying to say with that analogy as the follow: The lack of casual power comes from the fact that it would be a simulation done by software on top of silicon gates, where matter doesn't interact like in our brains. The Integrated Information Theory predicts very low level of integrated information on silicon gates arrangements, just like it predicts low level of integrated information on the Cerebellum (contrasting well with real life where the Cerebellum despite having almost %80 of all neurons doesn't seem to contribute much to consciousness experience).

[@bakkikudva]

At 53:35 Dr.Koch talks about something which the c.captioning shows as "Klaus poem" which I am sure is wrong and it sounds to me like "Cloud storm". Later he talks about a neuronal reconstruction he is doing in the lab he calls, again according to captioning "crown of song"...(56:48) I listened many times but can't figure out what exactly he's saying. I'd love to learn more on the subject but Google hasn't helped because I am not sure what to ask. Would appreciate any clarification on this. Thank you.

[@yjeeeek]

One of the best conversations on topic I've ever heard. Please bring more neuroscientists into AI research, our discourse became so narrow and simplistic, it's almost humiliating compared to scale of technological advances in the field.

[@metafuel]

Brilliant discussion.

[@ektorpapadimitriou942]

You deserve more views, a lot more

[@zrmsraggot]

Such a good question at 25:35 !

[@MRLJ10076]

David Deutsch would be an interesting perspective. He's done seminal work on computation and quantum mechanics + his constructor theory and his two books. (The beginning of infinity and the fabric of reality.)

[@yonifriedman1216]

Interview Douglas Hofstadter or Demis Hassabis, please!!

[@charlesbeaudelair8331]

Yes please!!!

[@cmag8924]

Adding D.E. Shaw to the wish list :)

[@ericadar]

Can someone recommend resources on Integrated Information Theory?

[@caterinadelgalles8783]

Who the hell spoke at 36.44? That was not Lex's voice. Was it his conciousness? Why did they cut of 'Jack'?

[@volta2aire]

55:31 claustrum en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claustrum

[@d1ngleb3rry]

Thank you!!! I was rewinding over and over. All I could hear was Cloud Storm.