Karl Friston: Neuroscience and the Free Energy Principle | Lex Fridman Podcast #99

[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Karl. From the vodka and wine in the background to the mathematics of existence, life, intelligence, and consciousness, this was a truly fascinating experience. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 1:50 - How much of the human brain do we understand? 5:53 - Most beautiful characteristic of the human brain 10:43 - Brain imaging 20:38 - Deep structure 21:23 - History of brain imaging 32:31 - Neuralink and brain-computer interfaces 43:05 - Free energy principle 1:24:29 - Meaning of life

[@Maxjoker98]

It's super awesome that KZbin supports chapters now! Does it work automatically(You just write the comment), or do you need to enter the timestamps somewhere?

[@CPLains]

Love Friston! Happy you're finding all these geniuses Lex. :)

[@timkbirchico8542]

Lex read Richard Dawkins The Ancestors Tale. Also check immune systems.

[@timkbirchico8542]

Also The Extended Phenotype by Dawkins.

[@bhatkrishnakishor]

@@Maxjoker98 I noticed it too, but I am not sure if youtube is picking it up from description or if it needs to be tagged separately during upload. Nevertheless, truly appreciated feature, not that I will skip any chapter here 😊

[@JLGMediaProductions]

This IS the most incredible conversation I have ever heard. I don't have anyone to share it with that would feel the same.

[@jaichatha9894]

i feel the same mate! incredible

[@SamirPatnaik]

Same boat here too, brother.

[@Luboweb3]

That’s actually proof that you’re significant

[@wisefoolman]

I can relate to the frustration of discovering deep insides into reality but having nobody around to share it with that would be able to appreciate the significance of what you just learned

[@sophierogers2521]

Same!!! I'm unleashing my intellectual angst on an innocent notebook haha

[@johnerb4554]

Certainly one of the best, if not the best, of Lex's podcasts. Karl Friston introduced quite a few concepts that I would not have (and never could have) come up with on my own. Always amazed that Lex seems to absorb the ideas his guests present and come up so quickly with question that keep the conversation going.

[@randomousjam8590]

I liked particularly the discussion of self-awareness, the idea that the self enters into the world model.

[@brunoribaric9683]

That this is available for free is absolutely astonishing.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

That it's available for free and simultaneously relatively obscure and not widely publicised/circulated is immeasurably frustrating

[@ハェフィシェフ]

So true, I have no idea how lex "just" gets in touch with such legends of their fields

[@zachm9705]

I'm a Lambda School student at the moment and Karl may be one of the keys to unlocking AI. I've unfortunately been burned by the higher ed system so self education once I'm done with Lambda is the path for me.

[@seandmello3793]

@@ハェフィシェフ i think as much as Lex wants these big names, the big names want to break into the podcast scene. Getting into some "smaller" and niche shows allows the big guys to check them out.

Relativly free, you let the cookie get all your data for free.

[@cerberusdest]

"There is no other way that you can change the universe, other than simply moving." This is one of the most beautiful encapsulations I've ever heard, it makes me teary eyed.

[@michaelweizenfranz4379]

Or we are just on a turbulent/diffusing surface of an oildrop in universe scale, trying to bootstrap.

[@raresmircea]

cerberusdest There is one way but you’ll need the collaboration of your environment. The sole way for the organism to communicate something besides things that involve muscle contraction is blushing. The organism blushing can make people act in certain ways.

[@cogoid]

AFAIK this idea was very clearly expressed in the book _"I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self"_ by neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinas about 20 years ago. Absolutely the best delivery of it is in the beginning of Daniel Wolpert's great 2014 TED talk: _"The real reason for brains"_ -- highly recommended!

[@tonym6566]

Man congrats on getting such geniuses to talk to

[@RichBlundell]

Karl Friston is a surfer. I know because I am a surfer and I can't help but get the sense of surfing while comprehending all this. Friston is expertly surfing the gigantic waves of a confused sea. He surfs the deepest continuities of math, physics, deep time, computational neurophenomenology, and neuroscience. The paradigmatic impact of what he's saying can't be overstated.

[@JLongTom]

I don't know what to say. Karl has been something of a hero of mine for about 10 years now, His papers are engrossing, lucid and deep, and talks of his I've attended have been admirably clear too, but he rarely gives interviews. And now this. I haven't even listened yet. This is one to save for a special hour and a half.

[@eisenwerks6388]

Regular person: "You are interrupting." Karl: "Let me elecute the nature of your failure by first establishing the mathematical boundary functions of our relative beings and then evaluating the deficits in your generative model which led to this interruption"

[@mechachleopteryx1391]

Did you mean "elocute" or maybe "elucidate"?

[@yellowburger]

Nailed it! haha

[@ThePhamnomenal]

This was one of the most incredible conversations I've watched and listen to.

[@adityapradhan7201]

I was simply mesmerized. How beautifully did the discourse tie the topics of brain imaging, machine learning, existence and life. I am really thankful for the endeavour of posting such brilliant and thought provoking content Lex

[@yichaoliang5500]

First guest that matches lex’s dress

[@asmasarabenmoussa2517]

This podcast is a treasure. I really enjoyed listening to this guest. Thank you so much for doing this

[@DarioVillirilli]

Really interesting the idea that we developed self-awareness to better interact in an environment that has a lot of copies of ourselves.

[@ericruleman6710]

🔥this take is fire

[@rashasalim1259]

Mind blowing moment!

[@DarioVillirilli]

I was so inspired by it that I made a whole video about it 😁kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2q6aomFn7KZmsk

[@jamesr2936]

This is the episode I have been most excited for! Surveying your other guests, it was inevitable. Friston is truly a pioneer - everyone should review, in particular, his mind-bending research on psychedelics which informs his theory of brain function.

[@Milkshakman]

To add some further details for anyone interested, start with Carhart-Harris & Friston 2019: "REBUS and the Anarchic Brain". It's a great look at the coming paradigm shift in neuroscience that will have major implications in many aspects; particularly in how we see ourselves in relation to nature. Exciting times ahead.

[@jakevikoren]

thanks for the tip!

[@SatyaKumarVadlamani]

Lex, thank you for being a medium for us to learn from such brilliant minds!

[@jakevikoren]

Best interview yet from my humble perspective. THANK YOU LEX for all that you do and thank you Karl for your inspirational insight and elegance. What a time to be alive!!

[@underpowerjet]

Once again Lex, you have interviewed such an amazing guest. Karl Friston is remarkable in his ability to explain difficult concepts of brain. I could listen to him all day.

[@adwaitkulkarni3567]

Thanks for bringing us all these amazing convos, Lex. Big ups! Guest suggestions, whenever possible: 1) Robert Sapolsky 2) Sam Harris 3) Andrej Karpathy

[@adwaitkulkarni3567]

@@Kobriks1 Harris has done great work in the philosophy realm. This podcast has always included people from different fields, & this suggestion is in line with that principle. My view, you might have other & I respect that

[@christopherbushinski6656]

Sam is an idiot.

[@tpal3243]

Yes Robert Sapolsky would be great!

[@davedouglass438]

@@tpal3243 A neuroscientist's complement to Prof. Sapolsky (one I've overheard with my own two ears): "We have only 90 minutes, so I'm going to confine myself to what I [emphasized] believe. If Robert Sapolsky were here, he'd tell you not only everything we know, but what everybody has BELIEVED, and where they got it.")

[@victoralmeida4955]

Robert Sapolsky is such an excellent suggestion

[@cultovmetal]

It is fascinating how Karl manages to bring up simple analogies to complex topics. It is an art by itself!

[@alpha.wintermute]

What a great interview! I love these topics they're so fascinating. Also, with good faith he also represented the weaker parts of his theory. This is the type of honesty you need to share important ideas and change minds, otherwise when ignoring the obvious the listener will always attempt to battle you and miss the point entirely.

[@jamesshelton7301]

Friston's analogy of weather patterns had me contemplating whether the weather could be terrestrial brain patterns of a sort, performing certain "neuronal" functions.

[@HouseOfOuroboros]

Thanks a lot for this beautiful interview. On a side note, it's fascinating to see a genuinely happy person who is aware that he has already made a huge impact in science, which will continue to shape it for many years to come. That bottle of vodka and a friendly atmosphere of the conversation made my Markov blanket feel particularly cosy 🔆.

[@hosinlau]

Finally got Karl Friston ! I have been waiting for this.

[@kopfmann45]

I like how Friston occasionally throws a guiding question back at Lex. This is what old-style Oxbridge tutorial looks like: one-on-one conversation with the best in your field, a mix of lecture, talk, and questioning. The best system of education ever invented, too bad it does not scale well.

[@contactpaulo]

That’s a conversation to be replayed several times! Thank you!

[@alexandercaines3358]

I cannot believe this interview happened. How great!

[@MrZzdannyzz]

Commenting on the question when does the collection of grains of sand becomes a pile. For me it seems reasonable that once you are unable to tell how many grains are there without manipulating them physically, you can call it a pile. If you can say the number of grains by looking but not touching them, it is the collection of individual grains.

[@peterbenoit5886]

Every time I listen anew (with reading and research in between) I pick up more nuances. Quite a wonderful conversation!

[@logical814]

One should aspire to write as well as Karl speaks. A joy to listen to. Much respect to you both.

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you, Lex. Great tshirt idea: "You are your own existence proof" 👍 and I love the way Karl said "There is no other way to change the universe other than simply moving" - I found that to be quite profound actually. Very profound, I might even use it in conversation, it is life encouraging, hope giving and such a beautiful thing to say.

[@JakraSMourat]

This interview is sponsored by vodka Ruskyi Standart!! That explains the high quality conversation level.

[@thelaw3536]

Only one word can describe this podcast: BEAUTIFUL.

[@robmas9007]

Really appreciate the timestamps Lex! Thanks for another great interview

[@johnrobinson51]

I've been hoping you'd have this conversation. Thank you for an engaging discussion and all the content you produce.

[@TrustifierTubes]

Lex you are also kind and funny and such an amazing interviewer. I love watching your conversations.

[@susiana5]

Thank u so much 😍 I am a psychology student and for me these subject areas are so important and interesting. Thank you very much Lex, I love your videos and your content! I hope there will be more such great videos in the future 😁 stay safe and healthy ✌

[@kelechistewart2133]

Lex, you are giving us truly revolutionary academic content.

[@babaikazoboh4344]

This is beautiful. Almost like poetry in science. Amazing conversation chain and exchange, made better with each question progression, and really an absolute thrill to watch. Obviously need to play it back. Yeah, must set up an account and start paying for this. Thank you Lex! Thank you.

[@NicoA47]

Just in time for writing the discussion of my thesis. ^^

[@plutophy1242]

frankly speaking that English is not my mother language , so it's really a hard time to adjust to Karl's lecturing style!!! but i really really really appreciate this conversation, i learned more than i could ever imagine!! really inspiring!!!thanks a lot! Buy the way this professor-student one-on-one style reminds me of my experience with my dear professor, it was a warm and exciting conversation.

[@abdurrezzakefe5308]

I've been waiting for this episode since the beginning! Thank you Lex!!!

[@erdwuzz]

Thanks so much Lex. I literally just handed in my master thesis, leaning heavily on fristons work in my paper. I love the clarity and mathematic reduction of his approach. Where other thinkers have to rely on much cruder, headier symbols, free energy has a clean-ness to it that's fantastic. Also a very polite, calm and charming person, which in my mind always lends credence to theorists. I feel lke his way of thinking makes him a comfortable and approachable human being

[@cambridgebreaths3581]

Can you suggest few materials to understand the Mathematics used in Karl Friston FEP? Thanks

[@erdwuzz]

@@cambridgebreaths3581 I wouldnt know where to start, but theres a neat write up in nature which goes into a lot of it and is also fairly readable. doi:10.1038/nrn2787

[@cambridgebreaths3581]

@@erdwuzz thank you! Good luck with your academic career.

[@joselizano3363]

Amazing. What a genuine person, lot of information to process. Thanks Lex.

[@esakoivuniemi]

Amazing guest, facinating ideas, great conversation. Thank you Lex.

[@SambitPhD]

One of the best podcasts that I have ever heard!

[@evaunitzero1]

Lex, your conversations are real, beautiful and amazing thank you for being the most interesting podcast out there for scientific thinkers. I can't help but think how the free energy principle can be applied to the hard problem of consciousness, anyway I'm so happy you have this conversation with Karl. I would like to hear about your experience at Neuralink, I'm not sure if you took audio from that or not but it would be interesting to listen to a detailed summary from you. Keep it up dude, stay safe amigo

[@markcollins1577]

I am a bit surprised Karl Friston seems not to be aware of the hierarchy -- sparseness of connectivity -- that is apparent at the molecular level but elated that almost everything he says so elegantly applies to the molecular level which helps me immensely in my work. Rock on Lex.

[@robinmcbride4057]

The brain architecture and hierarchy 'evolved' from spinal chord to brain stem, hind-brain mid-brain to brains' lobes cortex and ultimately to date human prefrontal cortex.

[@superimposition8665]

This is a tremendously insightful, provocative, and enjoyable conversation with a great mind. Coming from a philosophy background, I feel as if I caught up on recent scientific and computational perspectives on old questions in phil. of mind. If I may, can I suggest you invite on the inferentialist philosopher, Robert Brandom. He would be a perfect fit to complement this conversation with Friston, as well as your guest profile more generally. Keep up the good work!

[@apester2]

Amazing conversation. Somehow I have only come upon Mr Friston's work now. Would love to hear him and John Vervaeke having a conversation.

[@raresmircea]

Mindblown by your list of guests. You’re in a class of your own 👌

[@sculptor6167]

"You are your own existence proof" should be on a tee shirt :) Great conversation, as always, Lex!

[@nickcounter6254]

My fav episode yet! But I say that every new episode... Lex, you're killing it

[@tonyalex162]

Hi Lex, you have opened a new world for me.A big Thank you.

[@bradwrobleski666]

Thanks for this Lex! I have been following Karl's work for years and this was a great interview! Great questions- great answers! Ever thought of interviewing Douglas Hofstadter?

[@alexbos8211]

Lex man, you are doing stellar work - please keep doing what you do!

[@Trebleclefaudio]

Another great podcast with another interesting guest, thank you Lex! Really enjoy filing my nerdy breaks with your podcasts.

[@david8157]

Excellent discussion with a genuinely gifted and learned scientist.

[@asdf8asdf8asdf8asdf]

Around 1:21 or so. Need to distinguish (my)self from (your)self in a world populated by things-like-selves. This taps n BEAUTIFULLY to Jayne;s bicamerality breakdown (the left/right are, after all, at least proto-selves) and McGhilchrist's hemispheric observations about the 'battle' between the hemispheres (more kindly: 'interaction', or 'balance') as a phase of the overall system in developing a single coherent Self. Beautiful, powerful observation!

[@trimbotee4653]

This might be my new favorite. Thanks Lex.

[@allen_chu]

Lex, Please interview Yuval Noah Harari next. Thanks, KZbin

[@korrelan]

Fridman + Friston was very enjoyable, cheers.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

That was wonderful to watch! I love Karl's description at the end there tying in the mathematics and physics of the FEP with the language of phenomenal psychology! This is an *exciting* time to be a blob!!

[@lukemackinnon5894]

Now go back and watch #85 kzbin.info/www/bejne/paOwpaqFr5t3mJI

[@theowace]

Lex has such grateful guests and such a grateful audience. The signet of value that you are providing with this podcast is both manifest in the guest experience and the audience. This might be a conversation between two human beings/Aİ, but this podcast is an invaluable service to millions of people whose minds are in isolation, unable to resonate with their local environment. I can only say on behalf of my late grandfather, who I witnessed scavenging books for knowledge, that if he had access to Google, and to this podcast, he would have done absolute damages. Thank you so much for diluting some of the tik tok top ten twerking trash with some meaningful signal. God bless your journey my friend, and may the transhumans of the future look back on this podcast while looking at the same constellations that the orators of ancient Greece left behind for us. This life is a curious journey, but an infinite vector for meaning.

[@juanaq]

amazing conversation, will listen it again for sure. thanks a lot.

[@silviopina_111]

53:02 Friston: “How would you describe things that can figure themselves out of nothing?” This follows his beautiful example of the autonomy of a drop of oil as a (my words) “stand alone entity that exists”. Way cool! ❤️I arrived at Karl Friston through Mark Solms, from his book “The Hidden Spring”. Not sure if Lex has interviewed him too, or if he plans to, I’ll check ...

[@TraditionalAnglican]

38:00-42:00 - Discussion on Neuralink - Neuralink is talking about completely changing the way BCI works - 10,000+ censors/transmitters vs. a max of 256, & 516 kbs-1 mbs vs. 3-4 kbs used in present BCI’s.

[@metabansolutions]

Thank you for this episode brother

[@Jay-zr2cm]

I have to listen to these at 2x speed, great show

[@mechachleopteryx1391]

If you enjoyed this conversation, you would probably also enjoy this article, which Karl Friston wrote in 2017: The Mathematics of Mind-Time aeon.co/essays/consciousness-is-not-a-thing-but-a-process-of-inference

[@I2yantheGreat]

i'm gonna have to watch this twice.. insanely intriguing.

[@rapisode1]

Lex, you're the man.

[@evasuit1]

cool feature putting the chapters in the scroll bar

[@Demosophist]

I found this interview rather encouraging in the sense that those specialists whose discoveries might do the most harm are insistent about looking under the wrong streetlight.

[@Demosophist]

This expresses a general preference I have, which may not reflect reality at all. That is the notion that research is being directed by human preferences, so possibly by preferences that are counter to my human interests. But the possibility is that none of this is really directed by human ingenuity any longer because we've reached the boundaries of the extension of the physical/chemical body, and what's actually happening is more like satisfying the curiosity and interest of the non-physical *about* the physical. In other words this is all about the extension of the non-physical "entities" back into the physical and following the threads of our history of technological extension. No one is going to ever propose this in academia, so it's not something one need worry about.

[@Demosophist]

I was wrong. Professor Friston seems to be onto this, at least in part. The notion that the extension *out* has reached a limit where first and second nature have merged, after which the directionality of extension reverses back through the extensions to alter the organism in the direction of the eternal probably hasn't occurred to him... *yet*.

[@Demosophist]

Let me just add this: the Robinson Crusoe conjecture seems to me incomplete. It's not enough that there are other copies of me. They have to be sufficiently different from me that they compel an inference of an "I" versus a "thou." There are also, obviously, gradients of this. Julian Jaynes' conjecture was essentially that writing, and especially phonetic writing, interfered with the voice of the interior god of the right brain sufficiently to cause a recognition of otherness as the Voice went silent. But this is consistent with the notion that "self" is an inference, even though it's slightly more complicated. It's that role of the right brain, or of the grammatical and rhetorical capacity that was compelled by the interference of dialectic to infer a self separate from the gen pop.

[@stoyanvelikov1718]

"You are Your own existence proof" !

[@GrantBrennerMD]

Great convo. TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation is a standard Psychiatry treatment now.

[@timurgolovinov]

Great interview! Would be fantastic to see Jonathan Wolpaw on this podcast!

[@ur-mom-gay]

i didn't understand half of the things in this ep but I enjoyed it regardless. I'll be back in a year or two and hopefully be able to understand this episode a little better

[@PaulCarrero]

These videos are fantastic!

[@ChaleyM]

Any books recommendations about neuroscience at the beginning lvl? 🤓

[@jackeasling3294]

1:20:45 Holy cow! Isn't that equivalent to Hegel's view about self-consciousness? That self-consciousness is a NECESSARY condition of social settings: awareness of other creatures? Furthermore, Friston's point at 1:23:32 is reminiscent of Hegel's view that self-consciousness depends on intersubjective recognition!

[@keylanoslokj1806]

whatever those guys say now, greek philosophers said millenias ago.... .

[@bencrossley647]

@@keylanoslokj1806 I'm sure they said lots about quantum phenomena.

[@ameerhamza4816]

@@keylanoslokj1806 That could be "hasty generalization" fallacy

[@keylanoslokj1806]

@@bencrossley647 quantum is a woowoo term conned by a parapsychologist not a a scientist. and its no difference than democritean atomism in its core. just smaller particles. atomism revamped.

[@CyrusLogie]

I'm actually writing my Bachelor's thesis on this subject. Neuroscience is going to be key in reuniting analytic and continental philosophy.

[@luzyoz143]

more geniuses speaking about weather control please! your questions are getting exponentially better with each interview. thank you!

[@NeuroReview]

Rating: 6.7/10 In Short: Cool Scientist, but over our heads Notes: I'm a neuroscientist, so this theoretically should be really interesting to me. I've also listened to this 1 time through before, and when re-listening I had to listen to many parts over again. I had a difficult time following Karl and Lex together, especially when the dive into the Free energy principle which is the bulk of this podcast and Karls work. More of a story would have been much better here to keep listeners engaged. Also, simplifying some of the ideas, asking dumb and straightforward questions from lex, and slowing Karl down when it comes to the significance of the free energy principle; what does it mean? What are its implications?. This would have made this podcast way easier to follow and more engaging. But with all this said, there were some great points here and some profound statements, especially regarding moving to change things in the world, the power of neuroimaging (and constraints), and Karls fascination with heirarchical structure (but that part too would be easy to go over your head). Would love another, longer, more nuance, and story packed episode with Karl in the Future.

[@ardeneques]

Fascinating interview, thank you.

[@jonnykopp]

PLEeEAaase get Dr. Antonio Demacio!! I would love to hear him walk through his theories.

[@neptuneandtheoak1445]

LOVED this. thank you very much.

[@jladosky23]

I'd like to eventually see you bring on John Preskill

[@fbonde]

thanks Lex. Really nice Conv.

[@Iriesu]

Amazing conversation

[@hanselpedia]

Lots of interesting new ideas! Didn't understand everything, but I'll ask a larger Markov blanket for Christmas... Thanks Lex!

[@k.butler8740]

Wow, I didn't know about how blood allocation control was so fine tuned. Do we have a solid grasp of the control theoretic setup in the abstract?

[@TheFnkeysie]

Thanks

[@Incandescence555]

This is outrageously good, so good- but still could be reduced to- you exist to exist and you move to gain meaning from your self referential existence which is shaped, molded by your interfacing and relating with others (especially those similar to you) and the world around you, this experience is mapped out onto your (blobby) brain, which serves as a majestic, complex, neural mirror/guide to your journey through life, and perhaps beyond..

[@rochellecurtis4850]

Oh my! I'm going to enjoy this one when the kids are in bed!

[@danielulyssesbond341]

Excellent

[@paxnorth7304]

What a treat. Seems to be one of those lovely chaps who from his vantage point understands just how very little he and we know.Also loved Lex's questions which are great for intelligent lay people in this field.

[@ardaciftci3778]

wow I loved the observation of the use of the word "deep" in place of "hierarchical" in millennials' discourse.

[@tixch2000]

very interesting interview. Thanks Lex and Karl. Who or what set the cost function that allows for evolution/movement? Consciousness itself it seems. Tautology is a natural consequence, but it is also pointing to the fact that self-awareness is the base of all. Something like panpsychism I suppose?

[@ulriknash5502]

So, what is the role of the Kelly Criteria in the Free Energy Principle? It occurs to me that living systems, at least, will do things that do not lead to the least surprise, if the reward for venturing is sufficient. On the other hand, one can always argue that risk comes about only because of uncertainty, so minimizing uncertainty is the primary objective, to make "venturing" simply a matter og choosing. What do other listeners think?