Christopher Hitchens on the Israeli Flotilla Raid

Complete video at: fora.tv/2010/06/04/Christopher...
Author Christopher Hitchens discusses his views on the May, 2010 Israeli attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. He argues that while the Gaza occupation is unjust, the activists on the flotilla most likely had ulterior motives.
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Christopher Hitchens, tackling nearly everything with unmatched enthusiasm, erudition and, at times venom, has up to now barely touched upon one subject: his own life.
After many years writing about world issues and traveling to some of the most dangerous places on the planet, comes his memoir Hitch-22. Though Hitchens can navigate any argument with great dexterity, his memoir focuses on those whom he has loved, those he has abhorred, and those who have helped shape him throughout his life. The memoir answers this question: How the hell did Christopher Hitchens become Christopher Hitchens?
With tenderness he writes about his parents -- his mother Yvonne, in particular, "a beautiful woman who loves me" and about his father, Commander Hitchens, whose "liver was that of a hero." In a form that is anything but shy, Hitchens describes his complex and warm relationship with his mother, whose Jewish heritage he discovered only after her suicide.
The memoir naturally touches upon friendships, both lost and found over the course of his life. Hitchens' many sketches of friendships and ex-friendships from Martin Amis to Noam Chomsky, Edward Said to Gore Vidal are delivered in a style that is at once ironic, witty and tough-minded. A legendary bon vivant with an unquenchable thirst for literature, Hitchens has at times ridiculed those who claim the personal is political, even though he has often seemed to illustrate that very idea.
Paul Holdengräber, in conversation with Hitchens, will goad him to help bring into focus the many sides of Hitch, thereby illustrating Robert Frost's dictum that "a liberal is a man too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel." - New York Public Library

[@Bigtigerpetter]

"It makes me want to throw up things I've forgotten ever eating" classic

[@sacred1827]

This was just days before he was taken ill and found out he had cancer. We lost such an important voice 18 months later. RIP Hitch but the word still travels

[@conorwhite2066]

As I remember he said he woke up and could not get out of bed.. thought it was just exhaustion from traveling and promoting his book...but felt it was something else

[@sacred1827]

@@conorwhite2066 Yep. He said he knows all about waking up feeling rough, but this was different.

[@ThePopsheep]

What I like about him is that he doesn't have an agenda for israel nor palestinians, but he states what is disingenuous and flawed about all the sides involved.

[@kickdragon]

Here we are again

[@boofex1]

WE will miss this guy

[@petesig93]

🤣

[@boofex1]

Especially today huh

[@zesc_24]

Hitchens understands what most people don't. That there is two stories to every case and nothing is absolute when dealing with humans. It's so great to see a non partial guy like him.

[@kefkahkefkah]

Many people understand that, its just not the voices that are highlighted by those in control who wants strife for reasons they have. And then there are illiterates who thinks having a opinion before you study something is not the hallmark of a idiot.

[@patrickvanmeter2922]

@@kefkahkefkah The latter being the majority in this case. Well said.

[@petesig93]

In such 'impartiality' today the supporters of Zionism are actually supporting a base-genocide. How cool is that?

[@lordlacolith]

"It makes me want to throw up things I've forgotten ever eating". Awesome.

[@kronosDking]

As an Israeli atheist, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[@eldadmaster]

He forgot (like many), that Turkey is still occupying half of Cyprus, despite UN condemnations. But not only no one is doing anything, or even talking about... Turkey has sold many of the stolen homes and lands to European buyers, mostly British ones. But I guess that's ok, cause they're not Jewish, and at least they share the loot with Europe...

[@Comando96]

The Solmanian kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnqUloaAq7RnrZI In a discussion about Israel and Palestine there is slightly deviating from the point to tangentially link another detail... and then there is totally leaving the point. What relevance would it be to mention that an act that the current leader of Turkey did not commit, but continues the status quo to enforce, makes him more of a dick than to pseudo-threaten a genocide? I dare say that it doesn't seem to hold any sort proportionality when compared to each other. But yes... I'm sure he just forgot ¬.¬

[@eldadmaster]

Comando96 You're right, what Turkey is doing is much worse. And Ardogan is even more extreme in his opinions than the ones that perpetrated it. I hope you aren't actually trying to blame Israel in "pseudo-genocide" (whatever that is; at least you're not one of the ass hats, who actually call it a genocide). Because the "occupation" is apparently one of the worst attempt at genocide. Since that "genocide" started the Palestinian population quadrupled, in large part thanks to Israeli medical and humanitarian effort, which reduced child mortality by 75%. So either Israel is really incompetent in pursuing said genocide, or that simply isn't their goal. By contrast the Jewish race is on the verge of extinction, their numbers dwindling by hundreds of thousands every year; in no small part because of the genocidal effort of the Palestinians and their supporters. Every day, Jews across the world are killed because of their belief; only in Israel are they allowed to fight back. In many middle eastern countries, the regimes ignore murders of Jews, and it's rarely punished; that's assuming the regime doesn't openly support it.

[@Comando96]

The Solmanian Oh not Israel. The Pseudo Genocide comment was directed towards Erdogan declaration that no one is to mention the Armenian Genocide... or he'll forcefully remove the rest of them from Turkey. Genocide requires extermination of the population... would mass deportation of be genocide? Dunno, so I'll call it a pseudo one. Oh boy... Israel... Its just so complicated an issue. I certainly think that the extremist proportion of the Israeli settlers share the Genocide aim(you know, those ones who were caught by Israel trying to bomb the Mosque on top of the temple), but its not the overall goal of the country. The issue being that every interest group is pulling in every direction in Israel. The Government sometimes actively encourages settlement, whereas when it doesn't... it is powerless to act against its own citizens who continue it by themselves. I would say that the Jews were either retained by a countries population, or expelled upon he formation and establishment of Israel. That's partly what made it grow so rapidly. There aren't too many Jews left elsewhere in the middle east. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were killed. Honestly I'd say the answer for what happens depends upon the definition of Israel. If Israel is to be a Jewish State, where Jew's are referenced, then there needs to be a 2 state solution... anything less would require a hundred year slow an steady corralling of the Palestine population and squeezing their ability to operate and exist. However, an interesting thought is that if Israel was merely to be a State for the Jews... but offer equal rights to its other citizens without discrimination then you could have a 1 state solution for the region... once Hamas is dealt with. They are the biggest threat to peace, and even members of the PLO think that.

[@eldadmaster]

Comando96 I'm really concerned over Turkey, for the Turkish citizens more than for the rest of the region. The country demographic is roughly split between Christian and Muslim, but Erdogan forcibly trying make it into what can only be described as Islamic Monarchy cannot end well. Even if people in Turkey don't care about him demonizing the Turkish Jewish population and constantly harassing them, with such a large proportion of non-Muslims pushing down that path will make civil war inevitable. With the Muslims and Christian also geographically split between east side and west side, it would be almost too easy for the Christian part to secede, if they felt they aren't properly represented. As for Israel, the answer is simple. The Israelis don't want to choose one or the other: they want a Jewish state, that is also democratic. Even if it could've been done without disastrous result , absorbing millions of Palestinians as citizens will destroy the democracy. At best Israel will end up like Turkey with either side trying to maintain a tenuous grip over government. At worst, and probably inevitable in the long run, it'll become yet another Islamic Dictatorship/Theocracy. I could point out that in every country they resided (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, the Palestinian leadership always ended up trying to seize power in a violent fashion. Most Israelis support the concept of two states as the inevitable result of the peace process. The problem is who'll be in charge of said state? PLO can't control their people, Hamas can't be trusted as a neighbor. I used to think there was hope that eventually a new leadership will rise to lead the Palestinians to peace. But both PLO&Hamas poisoned that well, by centering their education on Jew hatred, legitimizing terrorism and teaching rewritten history of the region. The Palestinians of today, are far more extremist than those of before the peace process.

[@Comando96]

The Solmanian The PLO, unlike Hamas don't have the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on their webpage. They don't base themselves and their movement on Jew hating, nor support terrorism. I cannot speak for them rewriting the history of the region but I think its dangerous to throw both together as basically the same thing, since they are not! The only problem with the PLO is that Mossad spied on the PLO and then sabotaged all attempts for them to acquire small arm weapons in the early stages of the preliminary Government of Palestine. With this there was a power vacuum and Hamas was spawned as a contesting Government... which actively encourages terrorism. So long as the PLO fail, which they do because they are undermined, sometimes by Mossad and other times by Hamas, then the PLO have no legitimacy, nor are viewed as a force. Whereas Hamas is perceived by the Palestinians as at the very least, a force that can achieve something. If you could usurp that belief from people that Hamas is a good organisation and that the PLO was a force... a 2 state solution then is achievable. However some force within Israel really doesn't want this. I suspect its those who'd be in favor of the slow encirclement and expulsion/genocide of Palestinians... Turkey... The notion that Turkey is a member of Nato, and that they are a potential member to join the EU is insane. There is a term called Deep State, specifically to describe Turkey. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state To simplify it, the military industrial complex gone wild. The USA ain't got shit compared to this. And you speak of a possible Civil War in Turkey... its been in one regarding its Kurdish population for over 15 years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93PKK_conflict The US and Europe have trodden on the Kurds time after time... but now they are our allies. _I bet Turkey is happy at this situation_ xD I can just about understand why Turkey is n ally of the west... but only just. I cannot possible even begin to fathom why BOTH... BOTH Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the West's allies... aid Iraq and aid Kurdistan, break the alliance with Saudi Arabia unless certain terms and conditions are met... such as stopping their funding of Salafism(the theological version of Wahhabism) throughout the world. Theoretically you could offer a similar proposition to Turkey... but "Withdraw from Cyprus" would immediately be rejected and "be less dictator-y" would be met with a smile and dismissed. If, and I hope one doesn't, a conflict between Turkey and any western forces occur I hope it is used as an opportunity to remove the Cyprus stain from NATO's past. But other than that I cannot think what the future will hold for Turkey. Hopefully the people do something, because it is only a danger to itself, the region and its citizens at this moment.

[@1Cyberangels]

Hitchens is amazing, makes me want to hear the entire interview, does anyone know where I can read or see it? Nevertheless thank you...

[@banksjay3234]

“If Jews born in Brooklyn have a right to a stake in Palestinians, then Palestinians born in Jerusalem have a right to a stake in Palestinian” Americans pay for all of this!

[@arikkatzenberg4498]

Then by the logic Jews born in Jerusalem have right to a stake in Israel. So you’ve said nothing. Damn you’re dumb.

[@simsonyee]

He actually has constructive criticism and one can see he not subtly aiming at the destruction of Israel like so many so called 'peace activists' are actually working for.

[@Jtoksa2]

@haroos I am totally ignorant about "the huddieba agreement"? What is it?

[@gogogoode]

No one knows for sure whats after this life, but I hope hes at peace where ever he is.

[@Antonpreis]

“Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered, but never before have I watched as soldiers enticed` children like mice into a trap and murdered them for sport.” -Christopher Hedges, American Journalist on assignment in Gaza

[@pas2pb]

Does anyone know what book he’s referring to at 0:30?

[@docbledsoe]

Blaming the Victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question

[@gogogoode]

I was raised to believe that but I believe that this is the only life we have,so we need to live it well. I'd really like to think all the evil in the world will not go unpunished but I just cant. Respect to your comment as well.

[@TheGasLamp]

I feel very fortunate to be able to tune in to yotutube each day and be continuously educated by Hitchens. And his books are great as well. I'm not just an internet surfer. One should definitely pick up a variety of his past and current writings and delve a little deeper into his thoughts and ideas, some of which he doesn't have time to get into when debating or lecturing. Hitch-22 is an excellent read. I'm sure he'd rather you'd have read it.

[@nadinejoyce1203]

Wish he were here

[@jimhappnin1425]

He is never coming back. But you are free to join him... where he is now! If that is what you choose for yourself.

[@MrArtstacks]

@TheChutzpahGirl How do you support that statement?

[@terrypussypower]

Hitchens says something at about 1.58 where he mentions a name that I can't make out, it sounds like "Hafa solasa" . Can someone enlighten me ?

[@mango2005]

He is right on Turkey and Armenans though. But remember that Israel hasn't recognised that either, and has actually lobbied against recognising it for cynical strategic reasons.

[@mango2005]

Since you mention the UN, Israel has flouted countless UN resolutions including 242, requiring them to hand back the lands stolen in 1967. So Israel is on shaky ground citing the UN as support for what it's doing. And anyway, even under the partition-plan, Israel is occupying land that was allocated to the Palestinian state. The partition plan was unfair. The Jews were only 1.3rd of the population but got 55% of the land. The Arabs might have accepted more democratic borders.

[@muphart]

0:43 Nothing has made me more happy to be Jewish than this statement. Very interesting for someone like me who thinks religion and its desire to persist is harmful and ridiculous.

[@fortuner123]

Hitch is great. He speaks the truth and anyone who is hurt, I would say, obviously has a guilty conscience, or, is so brain conditioned that they cannot see their way out.

[@rock0236]

You just made one more fan for yourself ,Mr.Christopher hitchens!!!!!!!

[@anikinippon]

Awesome interview, thank you

[@Arwenpii]

Also there is a reason 'Bill of rights' was written in inverted commas. That indicates that I was using term loosely to refer to the Basic Law and Declaration of Independece, something which, in the absence of a constitution, is effectively their 'bill of rights'

[@Jtoksa2]

@yobouysway What do you think about the proposals of territorial division between Israel and the Palestinians which the PLO made and/or backed during the 80's and 90's? For example the Fez proposal, the Oslo peace process?

[@kronosDking]

Well said. I have a couple of friend who think likewise, if it makes you feel any better. Unfortunately, idiocy rules these days, it seems as though people care little of doubt and skepticism. On each side we have people saying "Burn the opposition" with no progress, when each side knows very little of the whole truth.

[@mrzed2349]

Hitchens was part Jewish and still no fucks given

[@theephemeralglade1935]

Judaism is a belief system, not a race. Hitchens had some ancestors who were of the Jewish faith. He is NOT, "part Jewish", lol. You aren't beholden to believe what you grandparents believed.

[@adambaker8689]

@@theephemeralglade1935 The Jews are a race of people as well as a religion and are genetically connected, proven by DNA. That's why the Nazis wanted to not mix 'pure Aryan blood' with 'Jewish blood'. Converting to Catholicism did not save Rome's baptised Jews, they were rounded up and sent to their deaths late in the War. If you have a DNA test it can come up that you are Ashkenazi Jewish (European), Sephardi Jewish, (from Spain or North Africa) or Mizrahi Jews (from the ME). As Jews have traditionally rarely accepted converts or married non-Jews, all of these geographically different Jews have a closer unified link between each other than the areas from which they came. Askenazi Jews are genetically more closely linked to Mizrachi Jews than any European DNA. The Jewish people came from Judea (West Bank) but were expelled from Judea by the Romans in 132AD by the Emperor Hadrian. You don't understand the difference between religious faith and ethnicity.

[@adambaker8689]

@@theephemeralglade1935 the lol just makes you look conceited and stupid when you know the facts

[@theephemeralglade1935]

@@adambaker8689 Even though that is true, it doesn't affect my point whatsoever. You aren't beholden to believe what you grandparents believed. LOL!

[@adambaker8689]

@@theephemeralglade1935 Sweet Jesus, again, it's ethnic! If you have 1 black grandfather and you're mainly white, it doesn't mean that you can say, "I have no African lineage because I don't believe in it." It's not something you can change like religion. You can choose to not practice Judaism, the Chief Rabbi can do that, but it doesn't mean that you're no longer a Jew. You're stuck with it, much like a Chinese person is stuck with being Asian or Congolese person is stuck with being African...it is what it is.

[@fvis]

I would’ve loved to still be able to hear his opinions.

[@nessieness5433]

Brilliant as always. Hitch should have taken more care of his health, he looks awful here. Far too much booze and far too many cigs.

[@throfur3489]

@Ian Michael I agree. Though selfish, it would have been amazing to see what he would have said about it. The Trump era especially.

[@Greinton940]

He looks spectacular here compared to only a few months later when unfortunately there was no stopping the cancer

[@CeoLogJM]

I live in israel, I am jewish, I am an athiest and I approve :)

[@AnarchistDoc]

are you jewish or atheist

[@simsonyee]

"How they get themselves called activists I don't know" Hitch telling it like it is :)

[@kronosDking]

Also, straight from Wikipedia: "Israel reported that seven soldiers were injured in the clash. Four soldiers were moderately wounded, of which two were initially in critical condition, and an additional three soldiers were lightly wounded. Two of the injured soldiers sustained gunshot wounds. One was shot in the knee, in addition to three fractures and a crack in the hand, a deep cut in the left ear, a stab wound to the chest, internal bleeding, and cuts. The other one was shot in the abdomen.

[@unfad1ng]

oh please, first of all i did not spell anything wrong or made any grammar mistakes, apart from forgetting the ' in you're

[@Singebuggercat]

Hitch was totally sozzled.. XD (and still the smartest man in the room.)

[@goldbluntz]

"if they should be brave enough" as far as I can tell they boarded a war-bound ship with no means of defence under the very real threat of their lives being ended, and then they were. In what context is it ok for these talking heads to call in to question their courageousness?

[@thedoctor.a.s1401]

when he says occupation of Gaza, he means operation cast lead right?

[@danielsempere9507]

the question was about Palestine and Israel and the answer was about Turkey and Armenians.

[@Arwenpii]

This is an excellent point, and I know that my country, Australia, certainly has a terrible refugee record and needs to be improved. That is something that human rights activists are constantly working on. However, that is only a part of the problem. It is treating the symptom rather than the cause. These refugees are displaced, their homes occupied and they have a right not just to citizenship elsewhere, but also to some kind of resolution within Palestine.

[@disappointedpanda3876]

Lol, well this comment aged like shyte. How are those cultural enrichers working out?

[@bschechter0428]

G-d rest his soul, Christopher Hitchens was a great, great, great man.

[@JerrySPsy]

Yes - thank you for that clarification. I'm glad we got that "strait" LOL.

[@SkullKing11841]

@vide0gameCaster Just because they were the nationalities you stated doesn't mean that they are not friends of Hamas.

[@tonyedward6909]

Wonder what the late great Hitchens thought about THE USS LIBERTY?

[@alanaronald244]

What a deft speaker and incisive thinker. No, I don't agree with everything he stands for , but respect his ability to carry an argument to a logical conclusion, his integrity, and intellectual prowess. He appears, as well, to have been a consummate gentleman. We were fortunate to have counted him among us. G-d rest his atheist soul.

[@vide0gameCaster]

Christopher went to far by saying that the activists were friends of Hamas. There were canadians, americains, spanish and french on those boats. And to say, Turkey is no friend whit Hamas... Sorry if my english could sound incorrect as it is not my first language.

[@kronosDking]

The Marmara refused to stop so the IDF could check for suspicious items, so the IDF had to do something to check what was on board... seems completely legitimate to me. Also, I can't find a list of the embargoed items. And what specific bombing are you talking about?

[@kronosDking]

I've actually heard of Deir Yassin, but not many other massacares.

[@WKRPinCINN]

God bless Christopher Hitchens.

[@01andak]

I'm sure people will remember Hitchens' version and forget what was actually said.

[@JerrySPsy]

Ans here is even an analogy to help you understand the situation. If someone tries to shoot you dead but you successfully wrest the gun away from them and later, in the interest of peace, you hand them back the gun and they proceed to try shoot you again and you again take the gun away - how many times do you hand it back before you say this is totally crazy? Even crazier is to make yourself even more vulnerable to yet the next attack on your life.

[@itsreallymehonestly]

This is how you speak when you want your books on the front shelves. RIP Hitchens. If nothing else you were entertaining,

[@crzyprplmnky]

If nothing else he was brilliant and morally courageous.

[@paulconnelly4050]

An apologist for the powerful and merciless. It’s truly sad what happened to Hitchens from the late 90s to his death. Especially when he was on the side of the weak and oppressed prior to this period. He was way too soft on Israel, but I guess finding out that he was Jewish by default from his mother’s side bore some prejudice or neutered any urge for really critical analysis about the crimes that have been inflicted on the Palestinians. He betrayed the Palestinian cause, while constantly reminding everyone that he backed the Iraq war because it would be a betrayal of his solidarity with the Kurds. Eloquent and erudite, yes, but that doesn’t mean you are right about everything. Entertaining and the listenable but too many conflicting and contradictory statements throughout his many years of book tours, lectures and debates to be mentioned in the same breath as say Noam Chomsky, who doesn’t let his prejudices or bias blind his judgement on what is right or wrong in a given situation or subject.

[@Saddamuel]

I think it is more accurate to say that a massive injustice was perpetrated during the founding of the state of Israel. During the same time I believe millions of Germans died during the de-germanification of eastern Europe. If the UN plan had been followed even slightly by both sides then any perceived injustice would have been vanishingly small as to be considered irrelevant.

[@disappointedpanda3876]

Jews came to the table for the initial UN 2 state plan. The Arabs didn't want to play ball. And they have been stepping on rakes ever since.

[@huntertristan]

@txnygotw there were several hundred thousand of people there with a fully functioning civil society - trade unions, newspapers, city governments, universities. what the hell are you taking out?

[@Tokiofritz]

So he was asked about the raid, gave a highly articulate but directionless ramble, then attacked the Turkish leader (albeit a deserved attack). Israel is a state that justifies its existence, its illegal WMD and its ethnic ceansing of Palestine on a passage in the Bible. This should be ripe pickings for a real Atheist, but as is always the case with Hitchens and his ilk, he's reluctant to attack Israel, never mind Judaism. The Catholics (that easiest of targets) and the Muslims (now the second easiest target as our state media feeds the narrative that they're all potential terrorists) have been done to death, but Israel and its support remains relatively unscathed. The occupation is wrong - though he doesn't make it clear if he means morally or politically - I give him that, but that's as far as he goes. I'm not sure if the Atheists that constantly spare Israel/Judaism their wrath do it out of fear, or if they're really just common garden variety bigots. Whatever it is, it's weak.

[@yourmama7721]

Tokiofritz Hitchens was very much against zionism and the injustices committed by Israel, but at the same time he still dislikes Hamas and any form of "Jihad".

[@ianbrown9099]

cos he is jewish

[@MitzvosGolem1]

Tokiofritz Bullshit

[@subu150390]

Bit late to this party but as an atheist supporter of Israel let me remind you thay when Israel was formed, borders were pretty fluid in the middle east with the British being the guys drawing the lines in the sand.

[@alexanderbertt6265]

Christopher Botch it up Botchens.

[@Antonpreis]

They don't need to do the killing themselves - the IDF does it for them, guards them while they rip out trees, protects their illegal settlements, etc. IDF has some very good snipers, able to pump 5 bullets into a nine-year old girl from a couple of hundred metres, shoot down a woman and her three kids after they've been told to go by other IDF, or artillery to bombard a house that other IDF has just filled up with civilians, and then they can wear those cutesy T-shirts, boasting about it.

[@kronosDking]

You logic is flawed. Obviously this is the history of my country but how would I know to search for history that I didn't know existed? Or do you purpose there is a wiki page full of Israel's history since 1948 to now?

[@farthersaidin]

I was actually joking btw. I don't think it likely that it happened and I admire Hitchens for his antitheism.

[@stevobath]

It was used in civilian areas. It spreads over 100 shards over a 250 metre diameter. IDF denied using the shells, even when The Times photographed the shell casings, marked with the classic M825A1 designation (made in USA). It's against the law to use it in civilian areas. How do you think so many homes were burnt in Gaza during 2009 attacks? Most of those in Gaza want no wars. Hamas etc are guilty yes, but so are IDF & Govt. of Israel & USA.

[@Arwenpii]

A simplification of what happened. As Hitchens would say,"religion poisons everything", and there was perhaps a chance for a secular independence before Hindu leaders took power and became ever more extreme. In any case, a 2 state solution back to the 47 partition does seem to be the only resolution. Thats not the same as what SmallDong suggests though, which is that they should somehow disperse into surrounding Arab nations.

[@atheniandpa]

Truly a great post.

[@ericbrufatto5371]

"... the point of the Jewish existence is to show there's no redemption." That's a chilling statement...I wish I knew the context of that reference. However, I doubt if I'll ever read Hitchens' book to find out.

[@adambaker8689]

Me too, was hoping to find some clarity in the comments

[@Great_PatBingsoo]

Hitchens is what you get when you combine genius intellect with courage and a strong moral compass. He would have been the first to admit he was not perfect. Hell, if he was alive today he’d retract his position on the war of Iraq. But what Hitchens had was that unwavering pulse on what many knew but were scared to say, and the impeccable ability to communicate the idea with precision and the right nuance.

[@johnmarks9994]

The occupation is unjust, or there were ulterior motives. Pick one.

[@Jtoksa2]

@AntitheistPOV > they're on equal terms with the Arabs. Agreed. Do you think that is what Arafat thought when he declared that the original PLO charter, which called for Israel's destruction, was "null and void"? What then do you make of the fact that Hamas, after winning the '06 election, explicitly stated that they would *not* honor any agreements made by the previous (Fatah/PLO) administration, and that they would be satisfied with nothing less that Israel's destruction?

[@JerrySPsy]

It is not irredentism either since Israel did not annex any territories based on historical possession but retained lands won in defensive wars as bargaining chips for future peace negotiations and for defensibility. It has, in point of fact, given back much of the land and at various points has offered virtually all of it back in exchange for peace.

[@dundeedolphin]

Was that a pin drop I heard?

[@Arwenpii]

The irony in this sentence is amazing.

[@Kurtlane]

Not really. He only found out about it much later in his life. He didn't fully experience what it's like in his childhood and formative years.

[@MENON471]

Noble Soul, RIP. Your words will lead us from darkness to LIGHT! bye, Sir.

[@JerrySPsy]

It is not a war crime to defend yourself against those who repeatedly try to kill your people and wipe you out (as their very charters have as their stated goal). And if Israel was so interest in land grabbing then why did it give back the Gaza Strip, entire Sinai, Southern Lebanon, and parts of the West Bank? Why did it withdraw from conquest of even more areas during defensive wars?

[@juliancox5545]

“Makes me want to throw up the things i’e ever forgotten eating!!” 😂🤣😂 He was just unadulterated class!! RIP Mr hitchens.

[@ShmorgelBorgel]

One nitpick on a mistake you made, Straits of Tiran, not Hormuz. Hormuz is in the Persian Gulf, Straits of Tiran were the shipping lanes that Nasser closed off to Israel in 1967; a clear casus belli.

[@Arwenpii]

Yes, in fact I do. I am against all theocracies because they are by definition discriminatory and often also happen to be incredibly oppressive. But that is really irrelevant is it not. 'Just because evil exists does not mean that I should be evil'

[@unfad1ng]

oh i get it, its supposed to be "your" . English is my second language, i cant be expected to always write flawlessly

[@Arwenpii]

No not disagreement as such, but rather refusal to acknowledge any fault on Israel's behalf or rationalising away all their errors. An unbiased stance would argue for self-defence, whilst at the same time acknowledging that aerial blitzes and blockades of civilian cities are going too far, for example.

[@Uncle99B]

Hamas does not have loonies. It did not even exist before Israel invaded Gaza and the W Bank and began its 46 year (and counting long occupation. It is a legitimate resistance force

[@vmgqie]

if that happened to my country and my country decided to go to war, I would fight and if my country lost and the conditions were intolerable, I would seek another country to restart my life and live there in peace,

[@RikerLovesWorf]

If Mexico suddenly took over California, would you tell people "Just go to Nevada, they'll have you"? Pretty weird comment, guy from 9 years ago.

[@AlexF993]

@BelfastAtheist No you are trying to change the direction of the argument. I wont deny that i misinterpreted your previous response, but you have yet to admit that there is clearly logic in the argument that the occupation of the Golan heights is rooted in security needs and purposes. I dont know why the Syrians bombed and raided Israeli towns, just as I dont know why the arab world attacked in 1948, 1967(well were about to attack), 1980, and 2006.

[@aran-xo1uk]

so what , is that an argument ?

[@Arwenpii]

Apologies, confusion and typo on my part. I meant the green line of course. Israel's continue settlement expansion is however making even this resolution look more and more untenable. Especially as Israel also have a huge lobby in the US as well as their strategic significance. I grow tired of this conversation. Every morning I wake to another 10 biased replies and I have to spend an hour responding. Perhaps I will come back to it in a few weeks when I reread Chomsky

[@RapsAlive]

What's your point?

[@Kurtlane]

How they get themselves called "activists?" But suicide bombers were routinely called "activists." As someone said, "Never stand near an activist when he activates. It's not a pretty scene."

[@jojo2mag]

If you'd actualy listen, you would hear that he is neither pro or anti Israli or Palistinian. He argues both side and what both side are doing wrong and what BOTH sides need to do to solve some of this mess.

[@Iybraesil]

"one guy we don't like" it's more than that, Saddam openly stated he had those weapons and that he was going to use them. What i he did have them and we hadn't acted? We would be in a much more dangerous situation now. If you think removing dictatorships is causing damage to contries then you must feel sorry for Nazi Germany and the USSR when Hitler and Stalin died.

[@Jtoksa2]

@vakasim According to Reuters Erdogan said: "There are currently 170,000 Armenians living in our country. Only 70,000 of them are Turkish citizens, but we are tolerating the remaining 100,000." He then said "I may have to tell these 100,000 to go back to their country because they are not my citizens. I don't have to keep them in my country."

[@sagganuts]

Pretty sure Hitchen's was pretty sick at this point..

[@kronosDking]

OK, I've done some research and it seems as though this propably legit. A few points regarding Israel's nuclear force and threaths: A. It seems most likely this is a way to frighten other countires in the middle-east who hold aggresive and extreme beliefs who wish to commit mass genocide in the Israeli people, if given the chance. B. Stop regarding this information as general knowledge, as it's definitely not here. Don't expect other Israelis to know all of this and then call them deniers.

[@an0nim0uz]

Even dead he's better than you'll ever be.

[@AvielMenter]

@MrNietzsche1990 This is also not true. Palestine never had sovereignty over that land. As such, they had no claim for it. The only claimants were Israel and Jordan, and the only country who recognized Jordan's claim was Britain. In fact, the armistice agreements signed between Jordan and Egypt and Israel specifically stated that the borders could be changed by military necessity, and considering the attack, the change was militarily necessary. The war was defensive, so it's not imperialism.

[@TheBarbahaba]

very well handled dear sir

[@ryanforrest1234]

I like how everyone arguing against me has the grammar/ spelling ability of a 9 year old.

[@Arwenpii]

Also, comparisons to other regimes, whilst useful, is not decisive. All it says is that both states need to correct and improve

[@thegafferlives]

This was a few days before the cancer struck by the looks of it.

[@AlexF993]

@BelfastAtheist The reason why Israel invaded Lebanon, in 1982 was because since 1980, the Palestinian militias were taking advantage of the Lebanon Civil war(which they helped start) to use southern lebanon to launch rockets into southern Israel. Really though? Stolen land? From Who? Who did the land in northern Israel belong to? Syria? No. But then why were they raiding and killing Israeli civilians? And once again, I dont know why they happened, they just did, if you wanna find out, look itup

[@gedalia3]

The "Palestinians" in 1948 were universally regarded as the Jewish residents of the British Mandate of Palestine. They attack came from sovereign nations, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, et al. The invading Arab armies warned the Arab residents of the mandate, who were at that time, simply referred to as Arabs, to evacuate b/c the invading armies were going to use scorched earth tactics when they murdered the jews. These calls are easily available at various broadcasting museums.

[@Jtoksa2]

@HAIDARAVEN I do not understand the analogy at all. Since Palestinians and Indians are the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine and North America respectively, and since the Jews and the immigrants from Europe are the foreign invaders, how can an analogy exist between the Israeli Jewish population and the American Indians?