Dovii Cichlid Care Guide (Wolf Cichlid)

The dovii Cichlid Fish care can be hard. They can be super aggressive and keeping it well fed is a big deal. I highly advise this mixed blend food.
Taking care of dovii cichlids is fairly difficult. So lately I've seen allot of posts about ph and so I decided to check mine in my main tank when normally I check straight from my tap now out of my tap I get 7.2-7.4 and when I checked my tank it reads about 8.0 I thought something in the tank was doing it did some research and found that the ph can change as co2 or whatever gases it is so tested with just a cup of water that sat over night and it reads 8.0 so what my question is will this change in ph during water changes harm the discus or will they be perfectly fine I really don't want to have to age my water if I don't have to.
Keeping a Dovii with Other Fish.. OMG
• Dovii Wolf Cichlid wit...
They aren't in the main tank yet still in qt and in there I do around 80% daily they seem fine after WC they like to hide behind the sponge filter while I do the WC but are back out about looking fine in about 10 min after I'm done.
Moved everyone to a temporary tank while I re-do my main tank. What do you like to use to clean a tank? I usually use vinegar but it's not quite doing the job. I also have a few minor scratches...any suggestions for safely buffing them out?
I use a razor blade scraper for hard stuff. And I used regular dish detergent and a scrubbing sponge on all my tanks too. But alot of people freak out about that so up to u but I have been doing it for all my life. Barkeepers friend. Cleaned a filthy 125 Gallon with it. Tried vinegar in the beginning then barkeepers friend. Vinegar was like using a handsaw to cut a log, barkeepers friend was a Stihl chainsaw.
It’s hard to see in these pics but this guy has swelling in his stomach (I guess) area.Started this am. But he’s only getting medicated flakes of metro/ Prazi twice daily. Wouldn’t the medicine in addition to the decreased feeding schedule treat any bloat? Why would this develop 2 days after starting meds? Side effect? Thanks. Dovii Cichlid Care Guide.
I agree 100%. I have a little one in QT that’s sick. After a thorough discussion with an admin, decided to treat him and my guys in the main tank with the medicated flakes. I’m not one to throw a bunch of meds in a tank. That just comes from working in the medical field and seeing antibiotic resistance illnesses.
you could give him an epsom salt bath. i dont know if epsom salt would affect your plants. if its too hard to catch him, you could use a tablespoon for 10 gals in the tank. i just read that it wont hurt plants since its magnesium.
my old blue diamond would get backed up, then i started soaking all freeze dried food, especially bloodwormd, and it never happened after that. when i feed FD black or tubifex, i hand feed, and squeeze the cube underwater as they eat. Wolf cichlids are also called dovii fish.
if you mix an epsom salt solution of 1/4 teaspoon in a quart of tank water, you could put a few drops on the food, wait a few seconds and feed. Think I’ll try that. They have been unhappy since I started the medicated flakes 2xday. They are used to getting fed more often and variety. I’ll soak a couple of black worms in Epsom and give as a treat. Thanks!
I had to worm my Discus. I used the same medicated flakes. Anyway I had one get issues with a swim bladder and was advised to do an epsom salt bath. I think those flake might back them up. Good luck! Dovii Cichlid Care. I’ve been using chlorine on my tanks for years.
The key is water temp, the hotter the water the more powerful the chlorine is. I use lukewarm water and it only takes 8-12 minuets to sterilize.
Whatever you do don't use bleach on sponge filters it does something to them and you'll end up having to buy new filters I learned this one the hard way. Got another tank of free swimmers this morning. Seems like all of our Turqs are female and most of the pigeons are male.
Day 17 in the 40 gallon, only 9 fry left. Didn't know why we were loosing them until I walked in on the mother going on a snack binge, so I shipped her ass out.

[@sarailaseel]

I would advice any person getting into fish hobby to strictly avoid this fish unless you know what you are getting yourself into. This fish does get up to 24"/30" in size. My dovii was around 2ft. I see a lot of people comparing the Tiger Fish, Snakeheads the Mac or elong Piranha aggressiveness to the Dovii, from my experience of keeping almost all the above mentioned fish I would not hesitate to say nothing can ever match the psychotic aggressive nature of the Dovii it will test your patience to the maximum, I know level of aggression can vary between individual fish, soon as this fish hits 14"+, 8 out of 10 it will go into extreme flip mode, you will need minimum 6x2.5x2.5 tank with massive filtration, it will own the tank and the possibility of killing the female also.This fish is only for experienced aquarist. Get yourself an Oscar and you will enjoy the experience much better.

[@sondercichlidaquariums4951]

Ozzy Tiger more like a 8x3x3 long term. I just got a pair growing out in a 120gallon, (150 u.s)the male is 12" the female 8", I agree with most of what you said though

[@mikefisher4834]

Ozzy Tiger How are you even able to clean the tank if they’re that psychotically aggressive???? I’m 37 and I’ve had cichlids my whole life but I’ve never owned a Dovii The most aggressive cichlid I’ve ever had was a red devil that killed anything and everything but a red devil doesn’t get over 2 feet and have razor-sharp teeth

[@quadzilla60]

Ozzy Tiger ahahah i have an osca, a green terror, jack demps, texas, etc nd i really want another giant tank jist to try and keep a dovii, sounds like the biggest issue is the space it needs? And obviously with super huge aquairum u need custom sump filters, f thise canisters lol way overpriced nd a pain to clean. Large sumps are critical

[@jmotanks8960]

Ozzy Tiger a Oscar is a huge drop off though I think from a Dovii and everyone has them! What about an Umbee?

[@angryfish8883]

Ozzy Tiger You'll need at least a 600 gallon plus+ too house a fully grown pair in...

[@BLAZEWON414]

I agree with you bro, I have keep plenty of Dovii and they are easily the most aggressive central American cichlid! Anyone thinking of keeping them must have excellent filtration, large enough tank space and understanding of this species.Great fish, but not for a beginner.

[@brucecroft3232]

I know this was one of your older videos but I still like watching it like you I love the dovii cichlid. I have a 17 in male dovii

[@claytonharris6984]

Just traded my flowerhorn for a red dovii today, super excited and can’t wait to see the growth

[@whitetrashandhellbound6905]

This day and age, with readily available information on the internet, people shouldn't be getting the care for ANY ANIMAL wrong. Tanks too small, water too dirty and Amonia levels too high/low. It's so easy to actually take care of an animal if you research and prep properly to care for it. It is a very expensive hobby to be a fish keeper at this level.

[@chind0na]

Thank you for mentioning Honduras. Rivers are overfished for these species. My son and wife are avid fishers. We only take home the extra large ones.

[@Alex-il6pn]

To be fair these fish do not eat pellets in the wild, you can feed them fry from another cichlid crawfish or even mice once they get to the 15 inch mark. See these fish are indigenous to the same part of the world as the parachromis magu" jaguar cichlid" and the reason the can live in the same waters is because this particular species has adapted to eating other animals that have spines. I see that pellets are easier and readily accessible. If you breed your own goldfish you may feed them to them just dont make a habit of it because of the fat content. Realistically some lady fed a fish chocolate its whole life and it was cool, so feed your how you want...ps I feed pellets.

[@hollysymons9404]

I have had my Dovii Blue for 6 years now his 40cm, the tank is on the floor, his very playful he loves trying to play with cats and loves my dog, I had to put a lid on the tank because he kept pulling the cats into the water when they sit on top of the tank, unfortunately, Blue split his bottom lip on the top of the tank trying to grab the cats :( so I'm hoping he will be ok, the cats are ok just coughing up water but they were fine, two nights before that he was thrashing around in the night, and in the morning one side of half his head was black it has not turned back to normal yet I thought it was a bruise but I found an article saying - black head syndrome, so overall "Blue" is having a bad week ... I have parrots as well but they stay outside on the veranda because Blue was definitely trying to eat the little one... he loves me and gets excited when I come home and I have to spend time playing with him thru the glass or he gets depressed if I don't spend the time with him every day, his favorite thing to do is chase the mop when I mop the floor its the greatest game ever to him...

[@jeffboyd474]

They are truly mean and very dominant, I have been raising them over 40 yes, but the managuense is also rough, but the true Trimac is rough fighter and grows quite large. But my 18 dovii was very rough but could withstand the dominance of my red tail catfish which was as mean as my dovii and jaguar cichlid and true trimac. All beautiful aggressive monsters.

[@thomasb8867]

Hello, I already had several dovii. The biggest mistake was a male with several females. The breed then at the same time and stress the entire aquarium and the females hunt each other even more. Always keep in pairs, then there are no problems. There are several other fish in the 1,300 gallon tank. Large cichlids, e.g. Citrinellum, great Metynnis, there are no dead fish.

[@jameswheeler2421]

Thanks heaps for the advice mate I have a pair and absolutely love them

[@bendurbin7837]

100% this is my new dream fish.

[@fishywishes8150]

Wow! Great looking Dovii! I want one really bad! Great video and awesome fish!

[@matthewchapman1008]

I breed dovii cichlids it's pretty easythey're pretty cheap you can buy eight or nine of them in one of them will pair up$5 a piece easy to get at least have a 125 gallon tank

[@mikefisher4834]

There’s nothing wrong with live feeder fish as long as you’re breeding them and know they’re healthy💯

[@amenroyal2669]

Great idea

[@cichlidparksrilanka]

I breed Dovii ( Wolf Cichlid).If maintain water parameters,give good nutritional foods & Tank setup,breeding is not difficult.

[@Bullitt1768]

There was a dovii at my LFS, named Dennis. He'd see you and keep charging the glass, ove and over and over. Quite the menace!

[@armedtxan]

Wow that wolf cichlid has great color!

[@PalmerAquatics]

Hdz Aquatics do you have a wolf Cichlid?

[@armedtxan]

Palmer Fish Q&A I don't but I'm thinking of getting one .

[@leosanders4626]

I keep one tank in my fish room with big fish...for me its a few Tiger Oscars, Although I kind of wish I had discovered the Dovi first. For me I use them as my Cull tank/plant water factory (filthy fish aka Jabba the Hut of the aquatic hobby)...when you breed fish there is always a few with traits ya gotta whack from the brood or u kill ur project. So I know where those feeders come from...I would agree on feeders from the pet store or some other unknown source.

[@jrod238]

I have one and he is alone and pretty relaxed. However, he is young. He is a great fish. Maybe 6 inches in length. No big teeth yet.

[@gypsyman1939]

When they get to big for tank 16-18” how do you get them out of tank and move them to new tank?? Need help. Mine if to big for tank and I just had a 500 gal build into my half wall. Spent $5,000 want to move asap

[@AllieFettig]

So if I get a female, I'll have a smaller and uglier grey fish?

[@matthewchapman1008]

the female wolf cichlid is beautiful bright yellow with black stripe going through the center of its body with green around its mouth and eyesand during the meeting season they'll have blue on their fins and blue around their eyes

[@sondercichlidaquariums4951]

I have just put a video up of my 18" wild caught Costa Rican dovii

[@kaoticfahid2487]

Hands Down there’s no more aggressive fish then the butterkoferi not even the wolf

[@alwayswondering4051]

I was looking for a Dovii but couldn't find one, so I settled on the jaguar cichlid. I love central American cichlid species. No mistake there for sure ! I had female I named 'Manny' ( I know, real original) who I kept alone in a large community tank, without the community. I think she was a mass-murderer to be honest. She outgrew that in a big hurry. A huge fish. But one day, a ~ 7.0 earth- quake rolled in just afew miles north of me. All that water kinda freaked me. So she went to another tank about 10 times larger. It hurt to let her go, but I hadn't yet had larger accommodations. Besides, I felt a little ashamed. During the quake, fighting my way down the hallway which had become a carnival funhouse, I ran for what was foremost on my mind - my tequila bottle. I know I know, I feel like shit. [I'm sober years now]. Beautiful fish, beautiful coloring. I fed her everything. I wanted a very varied diet. She ate everything but had a penchant for bugs - BIG bugs. I loved that fish. Anyway, I was cleaning the gravel in her tank one day, and she got a running start and nailed my arm. Large cichlids are very aggressive, and Yes - they've got teeth ! She hit me hard, but I thought it was just more like ramming me. When I'd come around the corner in the house, she would come full-steam at the glass and hit the tank-wall HARD. Why she didn't come through the glass - I've no idea. She'd fan-out her gills like she wanted to kill me. Damn she was mean. Needless to say, she had the tank to herself. She was mommy to many youngsters. I remember the day she 'married' dad; holy-shit, that's all I can say - one of the most brutal battles between two animals that I've ever seen; after about 30 minutes of beating the hell out of each other, dad looked like was ready for the deli. She beat the living-hell out of the poor bastard. Incredibly brutal. For large fish, growing them in a 10 gal. is fine, but ready the both of you for 20 - 40 - hundreds of gal. in volume. These larger cichlids will reach a foot real fast. A two inch baby oscar can pack an inch of length on every 30 days. So movin-on-up to the east side will come again and again, and Again if you choose start with a bachelor pad. Eventually your gonna need a manor - an empty one ! I wouldn't feel comfortable with less than 150 gal. - per fish ! No joke. A 1000 gal. ? You betcha, that's just me. If you're a monster-fish freak, remember, that little two inch refrigerator magnet is on it's was to a trophy room. Some of these fish get 2 to 3 feet in length, some even Bigger (but they're uncommon in the hobby anymore). I feel super obligated to give the animal the room it needs for it's health and happiness. The depth - 24 in. and more. Length - the longer the better. Front-to-back; personally, two and a half times in 'potential' length - MINIMUM ! Those were great times and memories. I was a cichlid-a-holic. It must have been Providence that kept my marriage. Yeah, it was crazy. The only room in the house that didn't have a tank somewhere in it was the bathroom ! I was 'almost' out-of-control 😐. OH Yeah, Barkey's attack; well, turning around with the gravel cleaner in hand, I started for the kitchen, my arm just felt a little numb, like being hit with something dense and heavy. I glanced at my arm cause it felt kind of strange. Blood was running down my arm and falling from the tips of my fingers. The entire underside of my arm. I bled like I'd had my throat cut. It didn't hurt really, my whole arm was just filling a bath tub. I rinsed my arm, and there was this half-dollor size stitch marked chunk ready for removal - no shit. I was never really worried about bites because I really saw no teeth. Take my word for it, they're in there. Crazy how you can love something so damn vicious. Kinda like my wife 😐. Just-kidding Just-kidding 😁. I've kept and bred all kinds of fish over the years, but for whatever reason, cichlids have my mind and heart both. Sometimes my arms - with a smile 👌 🦈.

[@santab8629]

Sounds really crazy...

[@brucecroft3232]

Sorry got cut off I have a 17 in Novi in a 180 by himself I also have a breeding pair of device about 7/8 in Long in a 75-gallon I know I will need a bigger tank very soon I also have two red doviis one about 8 in the other one about 6 in. In my opinion a very cool fish to keep

[@Js-fb1mo]

I’ve seen a dovii in a tank with 8 Red Devils and it kept them in a corner

[@reidseimetz1264]

My Dovii It was almost 3 feet in length and I kept it in A 6000 gallon indoor pond but that was A decade ago

[@darrylbrown8503]

Mine don't like the light yet,

[@GODISLOVE-lx5dm]

Is it Oka to keep a male and female together even tho u don’t want them to have babies?

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

i agree with the info the wolf cichlid size speed agresion intelligence and a mouth full of sharp teeth make this the baddest meanest cichlid on the planet! please do not think you can forever keep any other cichlid with it forever b/c the wolf will snap in time it might be possible to it with some cichlids in tanks over 500 gallons even then that a maybe!

[@PalmerAquatics]

markie mark I couldn’t agree with you more!

[@PalmerAquatics]

markie mark do you have one?

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

Palmer Fish Q&A no just been in the hobby for many years and have studied many different kinds of fish and I have known people who have kept these monster fish before sometimes you can get one with a bit of a nicer attitude but for the most part about 95% these are the most aggressive cichlids you can possibly purchase

[@felixthewintersoldierspink2347]

@@PalmerAquatics hey I have a open 200 gal ... Been thinking of getting a dovii... I was wondering how long would this be adequate... Until I get a new bigger tank...

[@kamelladys]

Even when small, 2 inches in size, mine hunted and killed everything around him. His switch got flipped when he was a baby😅

[@jasonlittle4049]

Have a question in a fight who win a jaguar cichlid versus dovi cichlid

[@loganjoiner-xj7np]

A dovvii? Jaguars don’t top out as big as a Dovii. No cichilid can compare to Dovi cichilid. They are the biggest cichilids. Males topping out 28”.

[@bradenwood90]

Do you think I could have a peacock bass and a arowana with one

[@karlburton8011]

Mine is 10inch he won't eat anything except pellets and blood worm he's been sharing with a kkp smaller than him and he's terrified of it

[@averdecheeseburgerc]

The meanest fish on the planet is a llama.

[@Thefailcycle]

you're wrong a 125 0r 150 is suitable for life.

[@awakenedanarchism4202]

nah

[@Thefailcycle]

Awakened Anarchism you argument is invalid

[@Stephen333]

You can't keep a fish in a tank that is smaller in width than the fish. Come on

[@dfgkennels762]

@@Stephen333 it will never reach 24 inches in captivity.

[@robertcook8860]

I got this very fish and mines bigger then urs and its in a 55 gal tank I feed him live sometimes but I do use feeder sticks this fish is a tank hard to kill.....

[@damiansampath524]

Good day well I have a red tail catfish an can i put 2 dovii with it ?? I have hav my rtc in a 4feet by 4feet by 3feet in depth pond

[@TheAquaPapa]

Who uses a check book ?

[@onemorefromdk]

Couple of questions Palmer. How are they with plants? And is pleco also considered food to those Guys? Ive kept cichlids for ages, everything from frontosas, texas, JD, oscars and Jaguar. And Ive recently got offered a few baby dovii. Im not worried about tank size as I have 500ltr and up to 2100ltr

[@lisabaxter7998]

How many Dovii left ? Just wondering if they all killed eachother

[@onemorefromdk]

@@lisabaxter7998 For now it works with the Green terror and Jag, but I doubt it will last >

[@abrahamvaladez1801]

I just straight up feed fish chunks and shrimp since mine was a baby I’ve been feeding it chunks of fish and shrimp

[@MrMr7even]

I really need your help my dovii is not eating anymore and just flot he was going crazy running into the glass I checked my water every thing is on point and good what could be wrong

[@cult_horror_junkie8144]

Please please do a preadtor fish battle between the aimara wolf fish and the dovii and see who the toughest is.

[@chuckyork6716]

My wolf is 14"+ in a 25 gallon. She is over 5 years old and has been perfectly healthy her entire life.

[@eog5217]

That tank is so small

[@andrewerschen6382]

Way too small

[@lisabaxter7998]

25 gallon . ..all lies

[@michaelmarcello8699]

I had a red devil was called tank aka the tank was massive and very very mean but these wolf fish are crazy

[@breadmanchubbz8001]

I have this fucker, he killed my catfish and Oscar and my Oscar was full grown,he fucked them up

[@fwsynr]

I’m never getting that fish I’m only getting jag and Oscar for my 75 gallon

[@ihatebossmanweezy4272]

Faded Legend dovii is stronger then those lol

[@patrickscott1604]

How do i tell if i got a female or a male

[@scowntownaquatics1291]

Very Nice! I subscribed!

[@dbrown75]

How do I push my sponge filters like that it looks like there pushing more air

[@JohnDoe-fy5kd]

I feed mine fancy goldfish

[@bobbyheenan99]

As tough as this fish is my 5" female parachromis la ceiba bullies my 9" in Dovii

[@leesmith5213]

I LOVE MY KILLER DOVI 🤪🤪🤪

[@aftermath3127]

Your african peacock tank is way to small they need a big tank

[@craiguderwood2388]

A Red Devil of same size, my money is on the red devil!

[@theke_todiabetes1966]

Or snakehead

[@matthewkelly1755]

i have a dovii in a 1000 gallon with a female

[@travisanderson4250]

I have a dovii wolf cichlid and a red terror cichlid that bread together.

[@wadegalvin9924]

Whaaaat bro, I wanna see pictures, that’s cool

[@bobbuilder9813]

My dovii killed my 10 inch Red Devil

[@blayde2422]

is a 180 ok for one dovii?

[@willhopson1277]

Blayde I’d say you’re good

[@Zozo806]

For 2 to 3 years

[@Ali-Muscle]

How big does the female Dovii get?

[@PalmerAquatics]

A lot smaller than the male! Over half the size!

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

female get to around 16 to 18 inches still aggressive not as bad as the male though

[@Ali-Muscle]

markie mark that was my next question........... I was going to ask were they aggressive too & could they be kept with other fish.

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

you might have a better chance with a female with some other large aggressive cichlids but then you might have problems with cross breeding wich again the pair will turn very aggressive! the only way in a large tank is to get all females and this might work maybe

[@josephfrechette9916]

So it’s kind of like a pit bull?

[@curt3494]

Surely dovii aren't meaner and more aggreive than snakeheads?

[@PalmerAquatics]

curt I think so! My money is on the full size dovii

[@MrCelt81]

curt I would think a big old pike, Wolf fish (not Wolf cichlid different fish) tiger fish etc would be at least if not more aggressive

[@Buttikoferiii]

curt imo, they are

[@henrystevenson8088]

Jaguar cichlid Oscar the dovii is mean too

[@cult_horror_junkie8144]

henry stevenson what?

[@henrystevenson8088]

nick colavito the true red terror cichlid and jaguar cichlid are aggressivel too

[@mikejohe1920]

I think you could keep them with a large puffers fist or chancho

[@MegaE1337]

If you really want to see how to properly care for a Dovii go to Guapotemel's KZbin channel.

[@cult_horror_junkie8144]

Joey Overbeck he is a master at fishkeeping yes, but palmer is also knows alot what he is talking about and what u said and the way u worded it is disrespectful to him and his channel.

[@MegaE1337]

Pshh.. Sure, guy. Lol sensitive much? If I wanted to be disrespectful I would cherry pick everything the man said, and told him he was dumb like most people on Facebook would do, assuming I was here to discredit him. Then there's people like you who assume for no reason. I gave the video a thumbs up and watched from beginning to end. He gave really good information. In fact, watching the video it reminded me of Mel. Which is why I pointed him out. But my bad, Snowflake. I forgot how we all have to walk on egg shells now days as to not offend other people. Because words just hurt so much. Cry me a river, then stock it with Dovii please.

[@cult_horror_junkie8144]

Joey Overbeck haha well said ass

[@MegaE1337]

LOL. I see you steeped on this. Triggered.

[@drvigness]

Can i use 4 x2.5x 2.5 feet tank...no other fishes...please comment ..thank u

[@sondercichlidaquariums4951]

Vigneswaran Sundrarajoo no..look at my tank , and he's only 12" the female 8-9" and he's being moved to a 6x3x3 with a sump. They have growth spurts for years. I agree with everything in the video. Except I breed my own carpintis feeders

[@drvigness]

Fishy Draws i agree ..what kind of a big fish i can keep in my sized tank. I have kept oscars and flower horn but they are very prone to disease. Also kept an asian arowana but did not grow large enough since the breadth of the tank arent enough..but i moved the arowana from a smaller tank to the 4 feet tank. The person who did the move scared the fish and than onwards he refuse to eat as he used to..do u think that could be a factor..i have seen my friends arowana is bigger than mine..their tank same with mine

[@dankerns1558]

Keeping them with other fish hahahahahah! Mine from 4 inches ripped my 6 inch jack dempsey apart in 2 minutes when I went to the kitchen! Do not keep other fish with them it's death row

[@hollysommerfeld9277]

Meh

[@SnapRasta]

put it in with a goliath tiger fish 😂

[@PalmerAquatics]

RussianSpetsnaz0123 my money is on the dovii

[@PalmerAquatics]

RussianSpetsnaz0123 who would win??

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

according to the size of the fish goliath tiger can get up to 6ft and would swallow a dovii but around the same size a dovii is more aggressive and would harass it to death! there are tiger fish that get to only 3ft they not goliath tiger fish but just a smaller version but at 3ft i don' t think a dovii a predator fish at this size

[@aquariumhacksbymarcus5653]

i dont think a dovii could take a 3ft tiger fish sorry about typing not one of my fine points

[@SnapRasta]

Palmer Fish Q&A my money would be on the tiger fish. have you seen the teeth on them it would rip a dovi in half in one bite they have like 5 inch teeth.

[@clownanaround7996]

I going to put it with jaguar and Jack Dempsey lmao

[@rogerwitmer2659]

Just got 2 male and 1 female juives today

[@artemd2700]

haha you fool i feed all my fish feeders if they are big enough.

[@oscarboy4004]

2nd

[@PalmerAquatics]

oscar boy what do you mean?

[@TheTigerfish123]

Mouth full of teeth.....