Chronic Pain, Trust, and Ethics: A Conversation with Terri Dentry and Nate Kinch

In this episode of “Voices with Vervaeke,” Terri Dentry and Nate Kinch join host John Vervaeke to explore the intersection of chronic pain, dialog, reasoning, and socio-technology ethics. Drawing from Nate's personal experience with chronic pain and his background in organizational design, the conversation delves into the challenges corporations face in exhibiting benevolence and integrity, the biopsychosocial nature of trust, and the importance of understanding one's perspective in navigating chronic pain journeys. The discussion also highlights the need for a shift in language and models to better understand and address chronic pain, as well as the potential of the 4E model in changing the conversation. With a focus on empowering individuals and fostering equal partnerships in dialogue, this episode encourages listeners to share their lived experiences and contribute to a transformative understanding of chronic pain.
Guest Bio and Links:
Terri Dentry is a distinguished PhD graduate in interprofessional practice, dedicated to bridging the gap between traditional medical practices and holistic wellness approaches. With a keen focus on patient empowerment and integrated health solutions, Terri advocates for a healthcare model that values dialogical reasoning and personal journey understanding, aiming to transform patient care into a collaborative, multidimensional experience.
Nathan Kinch, a sociotechnology ethicist, combines personal passion with a decade of experience in leading global transformations, focusing on ethics and trustworthiness within organizations. His work emphasizes aligning practices with core values and fostering environments of trust.
Listeners can learn more about:
Terri Dentry on LinkedIn: / terridentry .
Nate Kinch at his website, www.trustworthyby.design/ on LinkedIn, / nathankinch and on his Substack, trustworthy.substack.com/
If you’d like to reach out to Terri to share your own personal story or thoughts, please feel free to email her at [e-mail].
Resources:
Join our new Patreon
/ johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation
vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning
awakentomeaning.com/
Voicecraft www.voicecraft.io/
Kinch, N. (2023, December). What's trust got to do with it? The RSA. www.thersa.org/comment/2023/1...
Kinch, N. (2023, October). Three reasons why AI ethics is struggling. The RSA. www.thersa.org/comment/2023/1...
Sull, D., Sull, C., & Chamberlain, A. (2020). When It Comes to Culture, Does Your Company Walk the Talk? ResearchGate. www.researchgate.net/publicat....
A Spirit of Trust: A Reading of Hegel’s Phenomenology - Robert B. Brandom www.amazon.com/Spirit-Trust-R...
Quotes:
"My work is defined as sociotechnology ethics. I examine the relationship between our values, various aspects of the civilizational stack, and how we design different technologies. This covers a wide range of areas, including machine learning, AI, synthetic biology, and medical and clinical contexts." - Nate Kinch [00:02:58]
"Part of that journey is very personal, as people must look at how they view their own experiences. We want to help them see how others go through it and learn from their journeys." - Terri Dentry, [00:01:23]
"Thinking of trust primarily as a psychological trait is to fundamentally misunderstand it. " - John Vervaeke [00:16:57]
Glossary of Terms:
Biopsychosocial Model: An approach to healthcare that integrates biological, psychological, and social factors.
Chapters:
[00:00:00] - Overview and Introduction to Guests Terri Dentry and Nate Kinch
[00:04:20] - Navigating the Complex Terrain of Trust, Transformation, and Ethical Re-architecture in Modern Organizations
[00:34:40] - Bridging Dialogues: Empowerment and Understanding in Healthcare and Beyond
[00:48:41] - Nate’s Personal Journey of Healing and Discovery
[01:07:13] - Beyond Healing: Integrating Spirituality and Meaning
[01:18:00] - Concluding Thoughts: Wisdom, Healing, and Collective Insight
Connect with John:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Facebook: / vervaekejohn

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

Thank you for this inspiring talk!

[@MrMadalien]

Nate's story with chronic illness is so awesome. I can really relate to this story. I went through the same "character arc" with long covid as I got it during the first wave of covid while living in Paris, France (arguably the worst city to be in at the time except for Wuhan itself) I still have it to some extent, because I haven't had the opportunity to get the right therapy, but I had a huge turnaround when the illness spiralled out of control with full blown panic disorder, I couldn't go outside without having a panic attack and I had 24/7 introception of my own heartbeat, and the simple act of raising my heartrate above resting would give me panic attacks! All of this combined with persistent fatigue, days long migraines, brain fog, inability to remember things at very basic levels. I proceeded to do EMDR therapy and some other interventions like exposure therapy and the transformation was incredible. I am absolutely convinced too that this is a psychosomatic illness, even if that is still unacceptable to the majority of those identifying as having long covid. Another giveaway that this is psychosomatic is the fact that before long covid, I was able to drink coffee/tea etc. as much as I wanted, but now even just a tablespoon of coffee will send me in to several hours of high anxiety and psychosomatic symptoms like sharp chest pains, headaches, high heart rate etc. Histamine intolerance/MCAS is implicated in this but the mechanism of mast cell activation is very much connected to the psychological condition of the person, and their microbiome, which is also connected to the mind. Unfortunately due to financial limitations, being in my mid 20s and trying to set my life up, I have been well enough to live a "normal" life but I am still a bit ill, and I hope that I can make an actual full recovery once I have the time and money. With that said, I'm curious if Nate could tell us how to go through a similar style of intervention? Is there any institution or contact point for such a thing?

[@alexandresavardo]

Look for ''Pain reprocessing therapy'' which Nate mentions. There is the ''Curable'' app which is linked to the work of Schubiner and others (see Ashar et al. 2022 study, the ''Boulder Study'').

[@DamianWayne-dm3ju]

If you don’t mind my asking, how is that you were able to do EMDR? My understanding was that it works with event-related (memories) trauma more than general anxiety…

[@MrMadalien]

@@DamianWayne-dm3ju You're correct, and I mostly dealt with specific traumas, that is how EMDR can be effective for more generalized issues since trauma can be at the root of it.

[@DamianWayne-dm3ju]

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Glad to hear it helped.@@MrMadalien

[@JodyLeeSchroeder]

really interesting conversation, thanks! I really appreciate these kind of talks , As a health care practitioner and soon to be D.C. I found this talk very interesting and insightful and whole heartedly agree with the re empowerment notion of healthcare. I consistently have as many talks with my clients around issue to make sure they are informed, free of ambivalence, listened to and treated like a human being , heart to heart. putting ethics, compassion, empathy and patient values first gets the best results and builds the best therapeutic alliance.

[@martintore38]

Both of these episodes with Terri Dentry have been great to hear as someone who worked with chronic pain patients and went through a similar story to Nate in the transformational and paradigm shifting sense. Chronic pain and all of the conditions under the umbrella of "mindbody issues" have an amazing potential for people to go through great changes both physically and mentally, almost as if those two things are related and not separate ;)

[@ElijahLogozar]

these help me relax. thanks!

[@gregorywitcher5618]

Tuned in and on time. Hey Dr. Vervaeke. I hope to meet you soon.

[@thomasf.webber4933]

Thank you for another very insightful conversation. I really appreciate Nate's insights and gentle launch of the psycho-somatic disease conversation. As a clinician, and also caretaker of my wife who has chronic psychosomatic symptoms connected to trauma - I would be happy to participate in the conversation you're forming. Please reach out, or share a link! It's really exciting to witness such great articulation on this transformation of culture by shifting perspectives - moving towards trustworthiness. Some questions I would love to dig in a bit more: what barriers to getting traction have you experienced? What are common cultural mindsets that your system helps to shift? Once these shifts are made, how do the orgs you help visibly change (culture, practice, policy)?

[@Rebecca0010]

I appreciate you covering these topics.

[@colorfulbookmark]

The most significant hidden factor is that when people say they are empathic as claiming themselves, is that they find caveat from innocent too, it is appearance as if empathic (friends or close people) but very often sabotage practice (to aimed one) and this is another example of how things are complicated by language declension, not only language, but any means to disrupt the aimed one. So, spirituality is empashized, it is not working in some cases means "empathic" is multi-dimensional term. This does not mean "do not use", carefully use, "carefully" is also aimed one intentional declension, in modern form, techological abuse too. I've read Dr.Peterson's experience, I think it is unfortunate and it is prevalent in modern era, not to him only.

[@Kennedywillz]

As someone who microdose psilocybin mushrooms I would suggest starting out with an experienced guide. I microdose on my own - but it was only after I learned to sit with it and dose them from my local provider.Everybody responds differently and dosages have dramatically different outcomes. I had an experience with them and this was possible because my local provider Aya_heals was there to guide me.

[@Kennedywillz]

On instgram 😊

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@Kennedywillz Not only instagram. The advancement of the Internet is so. It also influences offline too ^^

[@user-vg9qu9hx4o]

Fucking Yes Please! I haven't seen it yet but John if you could have more conversations around chronic pain and chronic illness I would love it as I think there is so much interesting stuff there around meaning making and sense making around your condition.

[@johnvervaeke]

There are more videos in this with Terri coming out.

[@colorfulbookmark]

When I have experienced personal life difficulties, it is another pain that I had to have help from others, because help to my life would be another pain to them too. Recent 20 years, I just ask help if needed. Some thought it of as if transformation and any means to otherwise applies, it makes my body challenged by some thing to it. This reply is another pain in the past, but posted reply.

[@colorfulbookmark]

Please notice that transformation I said was not Dr.Dentry said, the "transformation" thrusted to me was rectification to good habits to community. This is not meaning that rescue purpose, but meanings are so.

[@oliverjamito9902]

It's a privilege indeed! Now, what is a privilege indeed? Beloved, remember one another upon all the vineyards!

[@oliverjamito9902]

It's ok to correct one another nor to bring clarity, coherence, and adequacy unto one another! Without being offended in front!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Time came with Noone can uproot nor shaken. Is like can also take away!

[@Rebecca0010]

I understand. It’s one of the things I have the most difficult time with: asking for help. The second thing is when other people comment on things like grammar or writing style, instead of sharing their vulnerable experience.

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤

[@mellonglass]

Some points, Sickness is an amplifier, many drugs are also an amplifier, so at some point the realization of ‘crisis’ is to recognize the untethering of an education that created a forever stress to overthink everything, merely by not asking ‘why are we doing this’? Individualism is not social, but corporate, while criticizing failure to try harder with further abstractions away from capability of the whole. Being ‘useless’ is a construct of corporate perfectionism, to assume the child is an empty vessel ready for singularity. The old version of ‘corporate’ was immediate dissolution after objective achieved, this was changed to call the ‘corporate’ a body (humanized) and living, the neoliberal wet dream, left unheard by the institutional critique, that removed the intellectual. Aka: Ronnie Reagan and Maggie Thatcher.

[@11-AisexualsforGod-11]

Competition will revert back to cooperation upon poplation deficit.. Angles of perspective are eternal and thus reoccurring.. Cloning would allow us to mentor younger versions of our selves maintaining said angles of perspective intergenerationaly

[@oliverjamito9902]

Unto whom knows my utterance aims unseen nor seen! Come remind the little Child born "i" AM! If not will visit! Knows belongs upon...fill in the blank

[@ChristopherNFoster]

I'm early in the video, but shouldn't honor be the basis of trust?

[@oliverjamito9902]

Rest FILLED with thy conversations given just for thee all! Offsprings preserve will say, even though all came from HERE 1ST my Lord!

[@vmura]

Healthcare - do they really 'care'? or is it Health for 'profit', back to what was discussed. i have lost trust in medical industry. i cured myself by doing my own research because i have 100% skin in the game of my life.

[@MrBoxofplastic]

Wait till private equity gets more involved. It's going to get much worse.

[@oliverjamito9902]

To judge who am I will say look at him! Digital HE cannot see! Keep watch! Who keeps watch commanded? Unto all who snooping with intent! Need not explaining! Why? The....told thee!

[@analytic_daily_meal]

Please drive safe, it was snowy^^ Thanksgiving for people loving this channel.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Judgment and Justice who is the OLIVER JAMITO BORN DECEMBER 29 1976 SIGNITURE? The "i" AM. The New Day!

[@11-AisexualsforGod-11]

Why dont we just prescribe people intelligently designed routines? Because wellness is impeccable and thus not profitable

[@oliverjamito9902]

Remember ye thinking ye watching and ye thinking! Ye watching not knowing HE? Knowing come forth! Why? Knowing will say, through HIM, by HIM, and for HIM! Shared "i" AM come forth!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop John rest is required for all the shared "i" AM. Is like cherishing...but know? God's ways is not for the little Child "i" but to be given "Increase"!