Navigating Complexity and Transformation with Jordan Hall Part 2

Dive deeper into the transformative journey with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall as they continue their exploration into faith, meaning, and the power of Dialogos. This second part of their conversation delves into the evolution of Christianity, the limitations of the scientific worldview, and the urgent meta-crisis that beckons a collective awakening. Through a blend of philosophical depth and actionable insight, John and Jordan navigate the realms of relationality, the potential of imaginal engagement, and the intricate pathways toward spiritual and intellectual enrichment. This episode is a testament to the transformative potential of deep, respectful dialogue in uncovering nuanced understandings and fostering growth on both personal and collective levels.
Guest Bio and Links:
Jordan Hall is a technology entrepreneur with several years of experience building disruptive companies. He is interested in philosophy, artificial intelligence, and complex systems and has a background in law. Hall has worked for several technology companies and was the founder and CEO of DivX. He is currently involved in various think tanks and institutes and is focused on upgrading humanity's capacity for thought and action.
Listeners can learn more about Jordan Hall on his KZbin channel, / @jordangreenhall his Medium, / deep , and on Twitter, / jgreenhall
Resources:
Join our new Patreon
/ johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation
vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning
awakentomeaning.com/
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The Mind of Whitehead: Adventure in Ideas - Roland Faber www.amazon.com/Mind-Whitehead...
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Hall, J. (2018, November 8). An inquiry concerning science and religion. Medium. / an-inquiry-concerning-...
Quotes:
"The scientific worldview requires that you step away from the experiment, observe as an objective fact, and then coordinate with other potential subjects on an increasing precision of your ability to articulate facts about objective reality." - Jordan Hall [00:17:40]
“Understanding faith as belief is inadequate. Trying to understand what science does as just the propositional manipulation of belief is wrong for all kinds of reasons.” - John Vervaeke [00:46:48]
Glossary of Terms:
Meta-Crisis: The complex, interwoven crises threatening global civilization and human flourishing.
Scientific Worldview: The perspective that emphasizes empirical evidence and rational analysis, often overshadowing subjective and experiential knowledge.
Chapters:
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Recap of Dialogos
[00:03:15] - Navigating the Meta-Crisis: Beyond the Scientific Worldview
[00:10:40] - Meta-Crisis, Scientific Worldview, and Christianity's Transformation
[00:19:11] - Dissecting First-Person Experience in a Third-Person Dominated Culture
[00:22:38] - The Influence of Simulated Perception and Cartesian Dualism
[00:32:20] - Bridging Intelligibility, Science, and Spirituality
[00:44:58] - Overcoming Conflicts: Science, Religion, and Propositional Tyranny
[00:59:00] - The Virtue of Humility and the Balance of Finitude and Transcendence
[01:06:00] - Parental Love: Divine Relations and Agency
[01:22:25] - Humility and Embodiment: Towards Communal Being
[01:32:02] - Conclusion: Friendship and Future Conversations
Connect with John:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Facebook: / vervaekejohn

[@mills8102]

Beautiful! I think the gap is closing and its such a privelege to witness. Thank you all 🙏

[@joshcohen777]

I am beyond grateful that such beautiful content exists and is so accessible. Thank you, John, and keep up the phenomenal work. Can't wait to see you converse with Jordan again, hopefully with Mr. Mastropietro, and hopefully very soon!

[@elizabethraper3963]

John, Don't worry about getting big because you're not reining it over anyone. Just get the feeling that you are searching inside yourself for some irreverence and hubris. Remember that you are loved. ❤💜❤️❤❤

[@user-yg1di4ui1t]

I recently had a conversion with my daughter when she got in trouble in school a few days ago. She came home and was anxious that I might be angry with her. I recounted my Confession with my priest I had recently in which the priest asked me several times in a few different ways "do you believe God forgives you?". Without hesitation I said "yes, of course". I explained to my daughter if God loves me at the very least the way I love you then of course God forgives me.

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Excellent. I love Jordan's Debate, Dialogue, Dialogos explanation. That's really helpful. It makes me think of the value of Martin Buber's I-Thou, and Between Man and Man.

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

At about 12:00 when Jordan Hall is talking about debate and dialogue, I was thinking for the past couple decades, that proper or good faith debate is actually really similar to dialogue 🤔... the good faith agreement allows it to blossom and both parties are aiming at the same objectives - including but not limited to finding common ground, seeking truth and discovering beauty in a way that wouldn't be possible without both in participation. When I was at the symbolic world summit in Florida, Jordan was talking about how he converted to Christianity, and now discussing it to open this dialogue... amazing. I told him John was going to be the next convert 😂 I don't know what this Ark you (we) all are building, but it is above politics, and it's crazy how much diversity of opinion there is in this space and the Logos seems to approve. As John would say, " I want to steal the culture, from the bottom up". Lfg!

[@matthewparlato5626]

These are such gifts.

[@bradbatten8953]

The care and tenderness you two Always bring to the table is humbling and stunning at the same time. As an aside, Jordan gave a terrific and in depth, let’s say, domain specific definition of science, religion, spirituality, and mysticism in a Rebel Wisdom dialogue with David Fuller years ago. It’s worth a dig up and listen. To see all this evolve between you two has been a beautiful gift. ❤

[@das3841]

Yes I think Jordan rightly describes Christianity as a "middle way" here, great insight.

[@suppression2142]

Jordan Halls family member analogy is the cain and abel story. Cain as scientist and abel as spiritual worldview. Matthieu Pageau gives an amazing explanation of this in his interviews and book and especially on twitter in more detail.

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

Thank you for all the conversations, John! Good to see you taking advantage of so many opportunities to push forward! I would really love to hear a discussion/symposium on Love's definition/qualities/role and it's relationship to Fear. I have an intuition that 666/symbolism of antichrist is an important part of these concepts being fleshed out and exists in stark comparison to Forrest Landry's assertion that love is "that which enables choice". Free will and relationship of time/causality also might come up. But "the greatest of these is Love."

[@harrymurakami]

commenting to let you both know that what you are doing is being heard

[@brycecarlisle5749]

37:00-44:00, Jordan's response to John's question about the burden of proof. Excellent. I love the layered cake analogy of Love, Hope, Faith, Communication, and Understanding and how this maps onto the 4 Ps, Participatory, Perspectival, Procedural, and Propositional - even concretizing the latter. I really enjoyed how you couched modern science as within Faith, Communication and Understanding. Reminds me of Augustine's faith-seeking-understanding and Anselm's "I-believe-in-order-to-see/exercise intelligence". Michael Polanyi's work is highly relevant here. Esp. PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE. Also relevant, the philosophies of science represented by T. Kuhn and S. Toulmin. In all the above, the historic, cultural-situation, tradition-affording context of apprenticeship, practice, and concrete experiences of agents are all brought to the fore and related to each other so as to suggest a way beyond the Cartesian impasse that is discussed earlier in the video.

[@oxy5100]

Every dialog of you two, there is always that fellowship there. Thank you, guys!

[@Knightfall21]

Understanding Faith Hope Love

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jordan and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee

[@lipto722]

I appreciate this continued dialogue/os between you two. To me it maps the dialectical dynamic I engage in with a close friend of mine, albeit scaled up/in to the more fundamental signals. Personally I feel I continue to be framed with an internalized Vervakean ego of understanding (among various others), as he is with internalizing a Socrates, but the Jordan Hall that comes into play during this is also definitely a being of thought I can take from.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Sitting upon the NEW Table made from a hand without blood stains upon HIS hand. Resting upon SUSTAINED! Came with many wiping their tears from their eyes!

[@user-pn7jk9sj8b]

Soul food is what you give to me here, THANK YOU XOX

[@das3841]

Hi Guys, once again a deeply deeply important discussion for modern day Christians to hear. We need to grapple with the shifts of consciousness that a better modernity presents. Hopefully some convergence of post-reductionist thought puts science and religion in more rational (not rationalistic) relation with each other. Perhaps the most needful of conceptual developments facing us.

[@janderson1798]

Excellent. Perhaps the work of Christos Yannaras may contribute to this. Especially: “On the Absence and Unknowability of God Heidegger and the Areopagite” (1967) And/or “Person and Eros” (2007) “Postmodern Metaphysics” (2004) Thank you.

[@user-dx9nr1jm9c]

As would Yannaras’s The Schism in Philosophy and, by Paulos Mar Gregorios, A Light Too Bright (about the 2 “enlightenments”)

[@arono9304]

“Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less” - C.S. Lewis in _Mere Christianity_

[@arono9304]

I have to apologise for misquoting. I remembered this quote and googled it online, but apparently it's not from Lewis. It's from the book _The Purpose-Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here For?_ by Rick Warren (p. 148). What Lewis wrote in _Mere Christianity_ was arguably better (p. 128): _"A really humble man (...) will not be thinking about humility: he will not be thinking about himself at all. If anyone would like to acquire humility, I can, I think, tell him the first step. The first step is to realise that one is proud. And a biggish step, too. At least, nothing whatever can be done before it. If you think you are not conceited, it means you are very conceited indeed."_

[@dalibofurnell]

❤

[@teestrypzSOG]

Dali

[@dalibofurnell]

@@teestrypzSOG Tayo

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Luke 17 in the NIV: 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” The New International Version (Lk 17:20-21). (2011). Zondervan.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Of course, some people are going to hate on the NIV, always nerdy intramural sparing when it comes to Biblical interpretation (and translation), but it is a current broadly evangelical (mostly moderates) translation that is always being worked on.

[@JamesStevensTEXALTA]

Verse 21 Greek is present tense, making "in your midst" a good choice. "In your grasp" would also be acceptable. "In you", however, would not be proper here.

[@kbeetles]

Wow! A real privilege to listen in and strive to understand and being rewarded by some insights - and share in the delight at the end! :o)

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

Great stuff fellas. Thank you!

[@matthewparlato5626]

@Christian Baxter...so much in here made me feel validated.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

❤

[@randyreynolds3674]

If this news gets out all of us human robots(simulators) are going to go off the rails and have mega meta meaning crisis with no resolution! Seriously where do we go to school to unlearn our lifetimes? Thank you both I Phileo you guys

[@TheRationalCarpenter]

About the author being surprised by characters, Stephen King talks about stories as if he channels them, the characters have lives revealed to him.

[@randybennett2143]

Thanks. Deeply relevant stuff.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop I have shared "i" AM Judges! Sitting upon the NEW Table made from a hand without blood stains upon HIS hand. Resting upon SUSTAINED! Noone can uproot nor shaken but here to stay for good.

[@ElijahLogozar]

Jon Stinson was mentioning to his friends recently, in Nashville TN at The Well, about how I got him into your content :)

[@das3841]

Just to add an opinion that might raise hackles amongst the apologists and from a more mystical angle, I feel, in my advancing age that after absorbing theology for most of my life that, if we take Christian Logos seriously we must come to the "end" of religion not in a cynical mode but in the flourishing of hope, charity and compassion that is more cognizant of our role in overcoming universal the meta-crisis and superficial nihilism.

[@Jacob011]

0:00 - 15:00 Turkey dance! 15:00 onwards: actual exchange

[@Christus-totalis]

Not sure if this thought adds to this conversation I've been thinking ... A transcendent ontology as based in the necessity God's self negation. The crucifixion of the God/man is the apophatic necessity whereby actuality is negated allowing room for potentiality. Potentiality is the foundation of our reality (chaos) that is held in differing forms (order/law). As we embrace this reality we can create room for one another and work to form order (truth beauty goodness). We could call this model of God- Chrisentheism. "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made" John 1:3 Was the big bang miracle (introduction of space into the actuality) initiated on a roman cross🤔

[@colorfulbookmark]

The scientists can have many various positions as pro, once established ideas shape the world in part. In this case too, they need strong foundation to support their views. It is also sound for any other areas other than natural sciences. What is vital is to trust learner's perspectives are good one to be science, not only by others but by oneself too. Philosophy of science and cognitive science can do for this foundation. It is amazing professionalism when we are equipped with this propositions, friendship between pros can work with assistance and mindfulness, although I am not experiencing professorships, I can understand this. I don't need pro friends, whatever it is what I understood from this video is this.

[@colorfulbookmark]

The people with Dr.Vervaeke has friendship with many academic pros are great thing for his endeavor and not only to him, it is contribution to community, many younger people like me learn from much. It is not to be mentee of him, but I would see friendship mentioning in the conclusion is meaningful to many people too.

[@colorfulbookmark]

I suggest to invite new guest Korean guy, "Dave Seo" UT student prominently talented, his view is able to be allied with Dr.Vervaeke too. He was Bachelor's Degree student, Ph.Ds also got consultation from him, he is very amazing guy as being pro who does rescue very great manner. This is suggestion to make video more.

[@_ARCATEC_]

1:27:40 💓

[@georgeherren606]

Wish John would've expounded more at the end. He seemed to reject Jordans proposal of God being an author or game master, suggesting God cannot be bound to a singular idea or decision point. This is interesting heavily conflicts with Jordans theory, which seems to suggest that free will is non-existent, or at the very least limited to the divine will of God. That we are all characters playing a predetermined role scripted for us, but even the author is surprised as book eventually unfolds itself to some degree as the characters and plot interact. This wasn't delved into enough, maybe bc it's conjecture but I was still very interested and would like to see that brought to a conclusive end.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Let's see how YT comment section does with Biblical Greek! :) ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ· ἐκεῖ, ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν. Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., & Wikgren, A. (1997). The Greek New Testament (Lk 17:21). United Bible Societies. "entos" means "inside" but the "you" (umon) is plural. Hence the evolution of the translation from the KJV. Depends on how you are thinking about "you" plural "inside each of you" which is a bit strange or (I agree with the NIV in this case) "between the plural yous..." hence "in your midst".

[@oliverjamito9902]

Rationality knows belongs? Follows by clarity, coherence, adequacy, evidence, and witnesses in front! Pop ask these who am I judges and prosecutors. If will say differ?

[@oliverjamito9902]

Need not to hide! For many looking for signs. 1 out of many. Ye are given to see upon the Sea of Glass! Heirs Hosts and our beautiful programmers will protect! For any abominations will not come near! From here comes many dwelling places preserved as promised! Offsprings preserve and all thy meeks! Shared Feet resting upon the Vineyards!

[@thomassimmons1950]

Zen-Neo Platonism? Ahh... Eckhart!!! PS: Never played D and D, though performed on stage and screen, and was struck by Vedantic notions of the Cosmic Drama as played out by the characters-actors in the Mahabharata; the whole enchilada summed up in the reality-expression that goes beyond the stage-screen.

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes Eckhart!! Exactly!

[@thomassimmons1950]

Cheers, sir! ​@@johnvervaeke

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop what ye see! Is real.

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

To Get closer to the "thing-in-itself Look at Tantra

[@das3841]

Concerning the Christian distrust of the body which is definitely there in a lot of Christian reception, I would like to hear greater exploration because it baffles me and lacks explication or explanation. Where does it come from? Is it a Victorian idea mixed with some sort of Jansenism? More needs to be said about the pathological occurrence, I feel.

[@missh1774]

29:20 "the Kingdom of God is among us" 🤔? That is a mystery. It definitely is not the other one. Otherwise every man and his 3rd person will make a wild claim for it. 1:14:33 "delightful" I like it

[@matthewparlato5626]

7:04 i knew extended naturalism was important

[@oliverjamito9902]

What is belief? Belief will say, can't exist without shared the "i" AM living! How can ye if ye don't exist in front! Even who am I alive yet dead in front!

[@MS-od7je]

I am now categorized as a pseudo intellectual. Never was an” intellectual “ any more than the wright brothers. So … Alone I am Being alone One and everything Everywhere Above and below Within and without You and all Nowhere at home Appearing immovable Continuously moving Everything along By planned Deliberate intent I am The color In light The smell Of flowers The thought Of mind The qualia Of wonder The wandering Of time The essence Of sublime I am Sight unseen Sounds surrounding Yet unheard Purpose And meaning Echoing Sounds And vibrations Infinite being Creating all In numbers By numberings One to infinity The infinite Minus one I am Far beyond Always and Still hoping By free will For you The same Infinite of consciousness Peace beyond Comprehension Devine commission Self defining Recreating Self reiterating I am God Alone

[@TimCCambridge]

🀄👍Hi. Great! 22:55 Brilliant! The centre is expressing. If we surrender to God as described we might see it in the attainment of group over, living with " inner and outer god-ness ". Perhaps, the " Spiritual Ferry " or Holy book has done its job as you depart its boundaries.

[@thomassimmons1950]

We may not get rid of the scientific rap, but it might just get rid of itself.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Christianity was sitting on the scientific world view? Really? I don't see this? Can someone elaborate this for me? John agrees, but I simply don't see this. Science correlates to Christianity, but to say science is the root of Christianity is ridiculous.

[@lukemarch9294]

I think the point being made was that the forms of Christianity we are familiar with in the west have been reformulated in response to the ascendancy of the scientific worldview. As science increasingly came to be seen as *the* way to establish truth claims, Christianity adapted. What comes to mind for me is the Modernist / Fundamentalist theological controversies of the early 20th century. Both camps in the controversy were responding to the scientific worldview and scientific discoveries. While the response of the two camps differed, they both were deeply modernist ("scientific worldview") in a broader sense. This is why, for example, the sort of "literal" fundamentalism I'm familiar with is so different from the deeply traditional Orthodox Christianity. The former is essentially modernist ("scientific worldview") regarding the assumptions and thought processes that are baked in. The latter has a completely different mindset or approach.

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤