The Leaked Sonic Forces Script

[@Cifesk]

Since the next video will be comparing the differences between SA2 and SA2B (will probably be like 1h30m in length), and since I have to lock in for uni in January, I may not upload another video until the end of that month / start of February, even if doesn't really give me any time to take a break. I can still edit a little bit every day as I've been doing, but it won't be as fast as I'd wish. Thanks for understanding :)

[@AlyCatVR]

Good luck with your studies! Thank you for all these in-depth videos you've uploaded this year ❤

[@callibor3119]

I think, what it is, is Sonic Forces is being reworked, like Sonic X Shadow. Sonic Frontiers 2 doesn’t make any sense when you don’t have Sonic Forces reworked to fit the story leading into Sonic Frontiers. And not only just that, having it called Sonic Frontiers 2 meant that it takes a culmination of every game’s story before it and expands it to something bigger with the other characters added. The events of Sonic Frontiers would be treated like Sonic Adventures, while Sonic Frontiers 2 would be treated like Sonic Adventure 2. But it has to have connections to the origins of the Chaos Emeralds. And that is the direction we are heading. Learn the origins of the many characters connected to Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald, then you unravel a part of themselves that never knew before. A whole new arc that rewrites all Sonic’s past events back into the present.

[@Gamm_array]

Oh nice, i just got sa2b.

[@RiverdudeCovers]

I love how Aaron just keeps bashing his head against his keyboard because of all the plotholes and dumb decisions, he was just like all of us when we first played Forces lol

[@PipeGuy64Bit]

I always thought he was kinda annoying but this certainly improved my view of him

[@Super_Genox935]

What the fuck are you doing here?! I literally just saw one of if not a few of your videos on my feed! I miss your covers…

[@-LG_]

facts I didnt really know who he was before but after reading on him a bit, I can see how and why he was upset with most of the plot and decisions the team were going with

[@CHAOSMAN-kd1id]

Riverdude?! What are you doing here?! 😲

[@ToaArcan]

This script is fucking hilarious. The devs make a game internally called "Sonic Wars" and make it about a war and then go "Waaahh we can't say the word war in our war story!" They set out to make a darker game, and then can't stop themselves from dumbing it down to a parody of itself, despite the script not really being all that much darker than like, the average Disney movie. What a trainwreck.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

They should of done what SATAM and Sonic CD did. But instead we got a sanitized version of eggmans take over. The world should look like palmtree panic bad future, Not like sand hill. With classic sonic they could of had his zones be about getting the time zones and getting a good future. IT would of justified his inclusion and given back the CD gameplay. Could of made this work. they really could have.

[@Alienrun]

I find it absolutely bazzare that they were ok with Knuckles saying Eggman was "torturing Sonic for months" but then when we get to see Sonic...having him panting on the ground and showing that he's hurt is "TAKING IT TOO FAR" and "IS TOO DARK!"...like...really? You really walked into that one didn't you? Also gotta love that one line where Vector calls out Tails for not disabling the Death Egg's defenses when at the chemical plant before...only to have them take out the line because it exposes a big plot hole! IAMO! XD XD XD XD

[@RLCguy]

Sega Sammy probably intervened and messed it up. Crap like this comes from the top

[@thetreyceratops]

They wanted to call their game Sonic Wars yet don’t even want to say the word die

[@existential_narwal9257]

I'm almost 99% certain that "Sonic Wars" is actually suppose to be a play on "Star Wars" Judging by the large amount of star wars inspiration in the plot.

[@DoritoGOD2811]

The discussion about Infinite's inconsistent backstory made me realize that it would be really cool if instead his backstory was that was a mercenary like in Episode Shadow, but he had been beat by Sonic. Only for it to be revealed that Infinite was a machine/Phantom Ruby creation made by Eggman implanted with false memories to make him hate Sonic and be loyal to Eggman. That would tie into the themes of illusions, false realities, and how they aren't as strong as true bonds.

[@timcanty2145]

I always thought he should've just been a genetically engineered hybrid critter made by Eggman. He'd be another Dragonball reference - Sonic's version of Cell. Eggman decides that since the animal characters can directly use the energy from the magic gemstones in the world, he makes his own animal that can better harness the Phantom Ruby than a machine ever could.

[@chrange9714]

While I like that, imo what they should've done was instead of relegating things to a comic actually show Infinite and his squad being mercenaries. Introduce a squad member that Infinite is really close with, whether it be someone he views as a brother or a girl member he likes. Then after getting to see their dynamic and come to know the characters, then have Shadow decimating them all and whether on accident or on purpose kill the squad member Infinite was close to. That would just really tie in more to how bitter Infinite sounded in episode Shadow and give a deeper meaning to when he said Shadow "blazed through thugs without a thought. To him it was just another Eggman base."

[@THawkMedia]

I think a brainwashed merc who was made to believe Eggman "saved him" would fit well, especially if you listen to his theme

[@Artista_Frustrado]

honestly that would have been amazing, & you could still have the Episode Shadow/Preview comic backstory since it's Eggman fumbling with his memories even harder

[@---oq5kb]

IDW comics has a story where a character is brainwashed to hate and rival Sonic, and another character is brainwashed to always be by her side, basically becoming comics of Sonic and Tails. U don't think they ever explain their backstory. Hell, we don't even know if they consented to the deal or not.

[@blackdressbess195]

"Yes, he will meet Sonic in the afterlife." is a line that's been permanently seared into my brain since this script leaked.

[@john_negs7720]

Ian wasn’t cooking

[@Faz10do987]

@@john_negs7720IAN WAS NOT EVEN WRITING?, I hope you are joking he is one of the best writers of Sonic, look at shadow generations, it is pretty good.

[@DarkShadic9632]

@@john_negs7720Ian Flynn catching strays on a game he had nothing to do with 😭😭😭

[@john_negs7720]

@ he made the early script lol 💀

[@john_negs7720]

@@Faz10do987 he wrote the early script for forces bru😭

[@Prince_Icarus]

Silver saying “bullshit” was no in my end-of-the-year bingo

[@benraven9087]

Even in it's earliest stages, Sonic Forces story was an absolute fustercluck that needed to be rewritten on a fundamental level, not just line changes.

[@dailydelphox]

Tbf, lots of stories are probably like that. Iteration is a very important part of making a story- using a first draft is often going to be problematic. It's only after coming through a draft with lots of criticism that you can find out what the most coherent way of making a story would be. In the case of Forces, it was likely a series of ideas strung together with little thought and no iterations upon it to help flesh out and ties these things together. The fact that they settled with just line changes seems almost incompetent. Maybe they were pressed for time and that was just them trying to polish up what they had lying around already?

[@areakastudios6704]

Who even wrote this game??

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

It's like two monkeys trying to passionately hug the same football, only in text form.

@@areakastudios6704 according to the ingame credits, Eitaro Toyoda and Makoto Goya, with Warren and Graff localizating to english which became the main script.

[@sthG3rson]

So Aaron Webber was trying to save us all

[@Catgamer7YT]

Aaron Knew that this made no sense

[@AgentB7]

Rather sloppily. I immediately can say that Tails not being able to defeat Eggman alone this time makes sense, since Eggman, you know, learns from past mistakes.

[@MrDiana1706]

@@AgentB7 Yeah but he didn't even try

[@hotel_arcadia]

​@@MrDiana1706To be fair if my best friend got killed right in front of me by something I never saw before, I probably wouldn't try either

[@goldenchatters]

can i ask what his first comment was about? is it just that all of the games just end and don't have continuations'?

[@OrangeToadGamer]

16:05 The fact that we could of gotten two generations pun lines is actually wild to me

[@SonicTheHedgehogX15]

It wouldve been better than “yOUr FrOm aNoTHeR DiMEnsiOn”

[@Cifesk]

we got robbed of peak

[@DarkkirbyKRPG]

"Thanks Alt Sonic, it's been classic" was also robbed from us.

[@Josuh]

"You've got that classic appearance" is dealing me critical damage

[@lloydmartel]

@SonicTheHedgehogX15 based on how it was shown in the script, it looks like the dimension line wouldve still been before it

[@theawesomarioYT]

lmfao aaron didn't hold back at all 😭😭

[@Drydoctor-qo5wt]

Yea holy crap

[@hype5456]

Considering who he is I'm not surprised

[@Mad8Warrior]

Hey Watrid 😱, lol i know right

[@MASG8]

Thank you for helping us the mario, it's been awesome

[@مشفارس]

This video makes me sad that Infinite wasn't used well in the game. Sonic Japan really care about Infinite with how many stories they have him in it, I hope this means he will return one day in the games.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

They could of made him work. the problem is poor writing. Too many people think its best to throw it away but they could do something cool with it

[@rocketrifter]

It's kind of wild to me how they want to downplay any references to war in the script, even though...the game is about a war. And that's pretty much true for Forces in general; there are some loose nuggets of ideas that could've been interesting if it was taken anywhere, but they didn't fully commit to those ideas. Either because they weren't able to do it, or that they didn't *want* to do it. If the early script showed us anything, it's that the final script feels less like a final draft and more like tweaks to a rough draft. When they said that the theme of the game was "bonding", it makes me tilt my head. I didn't get a sense of a thematic through-line in Forces; details are often sparse and there's little in a way of compelling characterization across its characters, so when they start making allusions to teamwork and friendship towards the latter half of the game, it feels hollow to me. The way Infinite is written is confusing; the Phantom Rubies role in the story feel nebulous(I genuinely don't understand what was going on with the ruby prototypes stuff, there's not enough detail there); there are opportunities for the game to tie together a lot of its elements into some sort of a cohesive vision, and it just...doesn't. The impression I get here is that they didn't really think about what kind of story they wanted to tell, and that is Forces' greatest failure.

[@Kelps.mp4]

"The impression I get here is that they didn't really think about what kind of story they wanted to tell, and that is Forces' greatest failure." Forces' greatest failure is that the whole development team did not know what to do with Forces. Like, they had essentially no vision or direction of what they wanted to do with Sonic going forward.

[@rocketrifter]

@Kelps.mp4 precisely

[@Blade_03]

It's been generations sense we've seen you!

[@koga7582]

Sonic Forces a reference.

[@XTHHedgehog]

*since

[@miguelbaptistapinheiro537]

"consider This your final Horizon"

[@JustCyclaReal]

“Chip, I’m gonna unleash”

[@SonicTheHedgehogX15]

“No likes or subs? Im outta here, i like tik tok better”

[@TheGamingKiller242]

I find it interesting that after Generations, the chaos emeralds disappeared up until Frontiers. Then in Frontiers, Sonic and Co. are specificially looking for them. Guess that's understandable after what happened in Lost World and Forces.

[@CR1MSONACE]

It took them everything in Lost World, Sonic dying for 6 months and an OC creator to go "Oh, we should probably consider getting the chaos emeralds again".

[@dmk_yt]

I get why they wanted to hold back on the emeralds, since it can get to be a bit stale having them be the focus of every game, but if they wanted to disregard the Chaos Emeralds, they shouldn't have made both games between Generations and Frontiers have "end of the world" stakes. I think Colors did a decent job with making the Chaos Emeralds a non-focus, having the stakes downplayed by the tone of the dialogue and situations making it seem less like an inter-planetary doomsday and more like a fun romp across the galaxy.

[@DarkShadic9632]

I like to think that the Chaos Emeralds were already at the Starfall Islands during Forces (since they’re unlockable in Lost World). This does NOT hold up with IDW, but let me dream

[@Wise_Person]

"yeah, that's right, i'm calling him alt sonic now" is so painful it hurts

[@NoisePilled]

Free bird ahh scene

[@Ultimategodanimations2025]

I'd call him alt how is that painful.

[@NoisePilled]

@@Ultimategodanimations2025 because it's so unnecessary

[@SonicTheCutehog]

If they did go with having Mephiles copies in the final game, that would have created so many continuity errors.

[@Signerdragon123]

I dunno... if the Time Eater inadvertently pulled Mephiles from an erased timeline and one of the unused Eggman voicelines confirmed the Ruby pulled Classic Sonic from another reality and not as a copy, it wouldn't impossible to think the Ruby would pull Mephiles out from another reality either.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

@ The thing here is that the characters RECOGNIZE Mephiles. Everyone had their minds wiped about what happened during the events of 06 because they end up erasing Solaris from existence, thus the events of the game are undone. In Shadow Generations, Shadow clearly states that he doesn't remember Mephiles because of this.

[@mikan7908]

​@SonicTheCutehog I don't think it's surprising that some characters remember Mephiles. Besides the phantom ruby having mcguffin powers, it's already been confirmed in japanese TSR script that Sonic remembers the entirety of 06 events.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

@ The recent Twitter takeover says otherwise

[@notaadamritm]

Japanase and American Sonic stories are different ​@@mikan7908

[@dailydelphox]

I'm SO glad you touched on the fact we don't actually know if the lines about Infinite near the end of the game *are* mistakes or not. Many people tend to overlook what Amy and Tails say as "The writers didn't mean to include that", but there's never any evidence for that. Really have to wonder what happened to leave Infinite so overlooked though. I'd love to have the developers confirm one day if Infinite really was a projection fused with the phantom ruby. It'd make sense, as it explains why he was so extensively tested on, why he'd remain loyal to Eggman and why he'd be absorbed by the Ruby at the end of the game, and while it's still awkwardly phrased (this isn't where he's "brought into the world" or "built"), it is the closest explanation we have to the lines Amy and Tails have. Not sure if that makes him a clone though or if these are so minor that they might be overlooked by writers in the future, but it'd be nice if these things were confirmed and expanded upon. It's just such a massive confusing hole in Infinite's character otherwise. One of the most bizarre unexplained details I've ever seen in any story.

[@noba04]

51:26 I don't think there necessarily is evidence to suggest this, but it's my theory that they actually planned some kind of post-game live-service component for this game early on which is why that line is kind of like that. Even the final script's line sorta alludes to you doing more, and I'd even stretch it out to say the stuff like the daily quests / rent-a-hero mechanic are leftover remnants of this system because they literally feel like the most random additions in this game. What really happened is just like what happened to the rest of Forces' ideas, they didn't think it was feasible to implement in a year so they shelved it with the others

[@dandragon01]

So what you’re saying is that Forces was almost the Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League of Sonic. Possibly.

[@Pepstep_07]

how long do you think until sega makes one of those gacha rpgs but with sonic

[@areakastudios6704]

I don't want anyone complaining about Ian Flynn's writing again after i heard tails say "It's been classic".

[@robertlupa8273]

We can still complain about Ian when he deserves it (which is just regular constructive criticism). But that line is just awful. >_> Makes me appreciate the "generations" line from the final game a bit more. At least it feels in-character for Sonic to exaggerate. It makes no sense for Tails to say the other Sonic feels more "classic". This adjective just doesn't work without the meta context. "Generations" sorts of works (but it's still silly). *EDIT:* WAIT I DIDN'T GET TO THAT PART YET WHEN I WROTE THIS COMMENT HOLY SHIT THAT ONE'S EVEN WORSE

[@areakastudios6704]

@ LMAO I know, I was mostly joking around, I was dying laughing when I heard the “it’s been classic” line

[@ProjectShadow50]

This makes me wonder when was the connection between Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces pitched. Christian Whitehead refers to the Phantom Ruby by that name instead of "Valtron" in his Sonic Revolution interview where he talks about how the two games ended up connected.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

Its interesting to think the phantom ruby in mania was just supposed to be its own thing at one point.

[@ProjectShadow50]

@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778there was no Phantom Ruby or anything else like that in Sonic Mania until Sonic Team/SEGA pitched the connection to Forces. It was just going to be about Sonic vs. Dr Eggman vs. Hard Boiled Heavies.

[@callibor3119]

They were trying to keep Sonic rated E10, but they struggled to keep the consistency of the story going as they were editing out dark words that would’ve rated them higher than E10. Too many things were going on at once that would’ve risked them at Rated T instead of their usual Rated E or E10 that they had for every Sonic game before it. Current games now are rated E10 or E and have been consistently those 2 ratings till this very day. Shadow the Hedgehog being the only exception with minor languages is still E10.

[@toolstonygj]

"We're gonna make serious scary game about war" "Okay, war" "Please don't say that, it hurts the age rating and my money"

[@robertlupa8273]

isn't one of the more infamous lines from Forces's final script "none of this is good, that's why it's called *war"?*

[@toolstonygj]

@robertlupa8273 that makes it even worse they had one shot at saying the word and it became THAT

[@gonzalot.605]

All those memes about Takashi Iizuka wanting to babify Sonic are 100% justified now.

[@Bertiboy]

18:57 You rarely put too many jokes in these videos and I’m kinda glad about it, you pull out one like this and it just catches me off guard, great job

[@FatboySmough]

This is just my opinion, but I've always kinda believed this was a legit script leak. Forces had a decent amount of stuff leaked at the time, i recall someone giving out pretty accurate details way before release on a fourm post. Calling it Sonic Wars and how it was only gonna be the playable avatar stages.

[@PlatformPanic8369]

I can't believe people complain about Ian Flynn now, but they don't remember what we had. Wow this might be my highest liked comment on KZbin.

[@CosmicSponge2004]

I complain about both

[@Nighterac]

​​@@CosmicSponge2004Exactly. Just because Forces was god awful doesn't mean what we have in IDW and Frontiers isn't any better. It still has the same problems as Forces more or less. He's the Tanabe of Sonic. The "mandates" seemingly only apply to his work but no other writer like the movie writers have the same problem. No one is above criticism and he's just another writer for Sonic. But people treat him like a god and it's creepy

[@davebob4973]

​@@Nighterac what we have in idw frontiers IS way better idk what youre talking about. Also if were gonna be critical on ian flynn the movies writing definitely have their own similar share of problems, if not more, depending on what youre looking at. Idk what the sonic franchise looks like from your perspective but your view looks very nonsensical to me

[@Kelps.mp4]

I still complain, not going to lie.

[@MyRoomIsAMess]

@@davebob4973 It isn't because Ian Flynn writes better than Pontaff that he is devoid of criticism or can't be compared to Pontaff. They have very stark similarities that come at the cost of the stories and characters quality, like obnoxious pandering, bad retconning, inconsistent characterization and lack of arc, meaning, quality or clarity behind their stories. It's better in SXSG but that was a team effort, everyone was participating in making the game's story good, and that game still has a story with an unclear arc, inconsistent characterization (see Gerald telling Shadow to follow his own path when he built him to cure Maria), retconning (Shadow) and multiple obnoxious stupid references to past games, take the very dumb conversation that Shadow has with Sonic. Ian Flynn's writing is very flawed, no denying that.

[@DarkkirbyKRPG]

I'd argue those "monkeys" silhouettes you see in Final Judgment's tubes ARE the Infinite clones, just incomplete. Like the tubes shown at the beginning of the game having cubes or whatever attempting to take form, I'd argue those black silhouettes inside the tubes are either incomplete (as in, in the process of being made) or downright failed attempts at making what eventually becomes Infinite. However as you mentioned, Infinite's origin was changed to be a mercenary as seen in both a comic and Episode Shadow. Despite this, the final game both keeps the tubes and the Amy and Tails lines, as well as Infinite being absorbed into the Phantom Ruby, meaning that Infinite is both a mercenary that joined forces with Eggman and also an artificial being Eggman created? I dunno, maybe they changed his origin to a mercenary because he would basically be Eggman's Project Shadow, and such a plotpoint demands to be acknowledged and compared to Shadow and his past a lot more (maybe Episode Shadow is a remnant of this comparison they would make?) Either way, this old scripts are fascinating. Forces is such a strange but interesting game, because of how big its ideas were and yet underdelivered all of them. Thanks Alt Sonic, it's been classic.

[@justice8718]

I do think Infinite is Eggman’s Shadow. Especially when he is powered a unique chaos drive that is the core of Shadow’s existence, and Infinite’s song speaks about reality and illusions being almost indistinguishable. It makes a lot of sense if Infinite was created with false memories for the sake of him being a viable test subject to study from afar. Like Black Doom has done to Shadow. Making the Ruby Infinite’s black doom.

[@ashuraomega1000]

I think Eggman cybernetically enhanced Infinite so he could better use the powers of the Phantom Ruby

[@straightuprat696]

24:40 REALLY sounds like what they ended doing for Giganto’s introduction from the few hits to how he’s slammed through buildings and a slow fall etc.

[@DairInNeutral]

What a fucking mess. It's hard to believe that the script was even worse at one point

[@Cifesk]

yup. While some stuff was sadly cut from the final, it just goes to show that the game was doomed from the get-go

[@LyrisTheCat]

@@Cifesk i mean it makes sense, new staff and then trying to make the game in a year while also wasting another full year just upgrading the tech lol.

[@genyakozlov1316]

Still much better than the Frontiers story. Not saying it's great, but 1000% better than Frontiers or Colours Wii/Ultimate.

[@sparktwochristopher7240]

​@@genyakozlov1316 What was wrong with Frontier's Story?

[@ArchetypalReaper]

​​@@genyakozlov1316 0/10 Ragebait

[@akdreamer6497]

Aaron Webber tried to save us man. They just didn't listen.

[@BComet]

I think by the time Aaron pointed the major holes in the story, little could be done about it, as it could demand a whole rewrite of some parts.

[@possibly_ben]

10:06 less "missing in action", more "gone completely insane"

[@ch3ddar526]

11:43 Now if only the writers had that amount of care for the rest of the story

[@genyakozlov1316]

Really a too many cooks in the kitchen sort of deal here. Someone needed to go over the final script personally, as being designed by committee led to some lines becoming non sequiturs in the final. That was never such a big problem in scripts before or after outside of Heroes's "It's a self destruct switch. Why did it self destruct?" during Team Sonic's Final Fortress, instead of "Why have a self destruct switch in the first place?" from the original Japanese, which was due to poor translation not dumb rewrites like here, so it's a Forces unique problem.

[@Cifesk]

I'd guess Aaron Webber's role, as someone who understood better the general state of mind of the fanbase, was precisely to correct those issues, which is corroborated by some stuff he complains about being changed. However, most of the stuff he criticizes is essential to the story and would require a complete rewrite (which they, most likely, didn't have time to do). I'd guess that Graff and Pontac also have a bigger say into what actually makes it into the final localization, so nothing massive could've been changed anyways

[@tiolloyd9555]

I've always felt like Forces was supposed to be either an RTS or a Strategy Based RPG originally, and this early script is somewhat proving me correct

[@coolioman9073]

IT'S A THREE DAYS AFTER CHRISTMAS MIRACLE

[@AzureGreatheart]

0:13 Lookin’ fluffy, Joker.

[@HOTD108_]

Being sent to Arkham changes a man...

[@DeepDiveDevin]

The part about Eva's central dogma is probably meant to refer to _terminal_ dogma, where the failed Evangelion prototypes are and which looks a little more similar to FInal Judgement's cavern.

[@MattTOB618]

20:20 This might actually explain why, when he leaves the prison in the final, he sees the Death Egg in the distance instead of coming from it.

[@rekrios]

God this proto-script is so messy and weird, it feels like the writers couldn't care about what they were making. But, the initial implication that Classic Sonic as a hallucination is actually really interesting, since Tails fumbles with machines and interacts with the Prototype Phantom so much, he could've been the MOST affected by its brain alterations, causing him to hallucinate or go a little crazy and physically see Classic Sonic when its just some random person. The reason why he sees Classic Sonic could be because it was his first memories of him being bullied and CS being there for him, its a strong emotional attachment his brain is using to comfort him. He's a kid still growing so he would be the most vulnerable. We can take this a step further, Omega himself was attacked by Infinite and the Phantom Ruby LOVES machines, what if Tails causes a spark with Omega that causes Tails to see Chaos, this would create a very unique twist to the whole game imo, its still weird and convoluted but better than the shit we got. When Tails reunites with Modern Sonic, he could still make the Generations quote but towards both Tails and Classic Sonic, showing that its not really towards Classic Sonic but to the viewers it is. Tbh that seems a big vacuous of a scene, I'm just throwing that out there. Honestly I think it would be interesting to have Classic Sonic be another character, or possibly the avatar that Tails hallucinates. Maybe he's like what Infinite was original designed to be, a collection of Phantom Ruby constructs, and Classic Sonic is one of them. This could by represented through the Phantom Ruby sounds that even Sonic hears, when defeating Chaos or interacting with Omega, the sound could be the hallucination going back to its source and for Tails, he basically is becoming a Phantom Ruby conduit like Infinite, absorbing the sound and hallucinating further. Then when Tails gets the Phantom Ruby Prototype from the Avatar, it could absorb most of what Tails had accumulated, powering up the Prototype but also curing Tails for the most part. Then when the Mega Death Egg Robot and the Phantom Ruby are destroyed, Tails is fully cured and Modern Sonic takes the place of where Classic Sonic was located. It would also bring lots of symbolism to Infinite, he was just some normal person but snapped in the Phantom Ruby's presence, going so insane that he screws up during battle and creates a false reality around him, lending merit to Silver's comment about Infinite's lies. It would also explain why he ignores Tails eavesdropping them or not seeing the Prototype the Avatar has. It would also explain why he just... runs away from the Resistance, he's a kid going crazy and not seeing things correctly. It would also not muddy up the timeline.

[@W-2Forms]

So you’re telling me we got robbed from, “so what are we, some kind of Sonic Forces???” 😩

[@bluebuffoon5313]

50:42 I very audibly groaned when I heard that pun. I can't believe someone thought that was a good line of dialogue

[@h208x8]

IT'S BEEN CLASSIC!🗣️💨

[@Josuh]

I'm gonna end it all

[@Robotta]

And people complain about Ian Flynn's references...

[@MegaMaster1021]

@@Robotta drives me crazy that there is still a small group of loud people that are pulling a revisionist that the old stories/writers were actually good compared when this was the type of crap they were cooking

[@MantledMimi]

52:22 They clearly wanted to do something with Null Space based on this concept piece. Infinite as a final boss IN NULL SPACE would’ve been sick as hell. (Even if the gameplay still sucked in this hypothetical, it would’ve still looked cool, as the game’s visuals are pretty good.)

[@SaddieMoon]

What these lines alone implies I guess. 2:39 Tbf, this line specifically doesn’t state if Infinite is fake or not. Just that he was being cloned. 7:58 This line could imply that Sonic was originally in the city. Not in Green Hill.

[@EmboLo777]

49:32 im suprised there are no notes on mephiles inclusion because it makes ZERO sense cause he was erased from existence

[@agentomecha634]

It sounds like Infinite was originally meant to be some sort of robot or android created by the doctor to control the Phantom Ruby. Based off how the early script explains some details. And how there are even some remnants of this plot point still in the final game… for some reason. Before Episode Shadow retconned this to Infinite being a mercenary hired by the doctor and given the Ruby after being humiliated by Shadow. I kind of wish the original backstory for Infinite was kept because it sounds like an interesting concept.

[@justice8718]

Infinite himself has a weird existence because it feels like they wanted him to essentially be a rogue clone trooper in the Final Cut. It doesn’t help that Infinite is perfect for being Sonic’s Mephiles. Who is sealed by the very thing that granted him his power. An object that could’ve been created by the inspiration of Mephiles.

[@ultimatedragon24]

Watching this video and hearing you say Alcatraz with a portuguese accent caught me very off guard lol. Great video though its cool to see what SEGA thinks of the story as it is being made. Btw sempre bom descobrir mais gente assim portuguesa. Continua o bom trabalho 👍

[@Forgeblaze]

1:25 Did you know, the original script writers wanted to keep this in the game SO badly that they instead settled on assassinating Tail's character instead? 🙃

[@CosmicSponge2004]

Sad times 4 Tails

[@blueberyramune]

thank you mario bros... its been super!

[@beyonrandu311]

24:30 did they reuse that bit for the Giganto cutscene in Frontiers? that's kinda neat

[@justalexgaming3462]

21:47 Actually, Sonic does say the first line during the part where Sonic is acting as the avatar’s conscience in the cutscene before the second infinite fight.

[@DetroitInvadesU]

Fun fact: I actually thought that Classic Sonic is from another dimension and that the Modern games aren't canon to Sonic 1, 2, 3&K, Mania due to Classic Sonic being from another dimension. I also thought that the Time Eater ripped through the dimensional fabric because he brought Classic Sonic (whom I thought was from another dimension back then).

[@BMALCINE364]

Forces is a game that suffered a thousand papercuts, i still like it. Even if it is HEAVILY overclocked by automation. Also intresting to see some things that could've helped the game stand, only to be restrained from Sega and fans alike with their symbiotic relationship, amongst other issues. Still fun vid, intresting info too.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I also love Forces!

[@sonicgamer178]

Thanks Alt Sonic, it’s been classic.

[@micahfurlow2624]

"Thanks Classic Sonic, this sure was a classic journey through generations"

[@bowl3864]

Thanks Alt Sonic, your story will be a classic for generations!

[@NoisePilled]

"Thanks alt sonic, it's been classic joining forces with you."

[@fojisan2398]

*Dies from cringe*

[@poymannyng1845]

"What are we now sonic, heroes?"

[@superbowser2715]

17:51 sonic about to meet Gerald and Maria

[@SaddieMoon]

16:00 It’s funny how people says Ian makes really forced and bad references, and make memes that sounds like this line. When I personally think this is worst (quality wise) than like 95% of Ian’s references in the games alone.

[@Okcool12569]

Both are worse and excessive imo

[@GracefulJabberwocky]

both are bad

[@acethehedge449]

Flynn can actually right a solid Sonic story, references and all because he actually respects the characters he's writing. Also people are really blowing out of proportion the flaws of Flynn's stories most of the time imo.

[@dn22pkkdd476]

0:29 lies. Puns always fit the atmosphere. No matter what that atmosphere may be.😜

[@Synergetic32X]

no

[@HatsonicMiku01]

@@Synergetic32Xyea

[@Yujinni0]

i know this might be a long shot but i really hope one day we can have a take 2 on sonic forces i really feel like it has so much potential and maybe with sonic teams new outlook they can do the game justice a 2nd time around its very obvious that the game was rushed and a lot of elements were left in a shattered state but the fragments that we have leave so many questions and so many theories on what a fuller game could have been like and with sxsg we have seen that they are willing to refresh older games and do some rewrites we might never get to fully see what was originally planned but maybe if given a chance we could see a more realized version of forces personally i feel like the phantom ruby and infinite were very underutilized and the final boss was so interesting to me with just how monstrous the heart of the deathegg robo was and how little it was explained

[@jdniscool]

Many of the changes to make the story not-darker by Iizuka’s request’s definitely helped make the game feel like the dark-tone was never fully realized.

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

It really makes one wonder why they even wanted to go in that direction in the first place.

[@jdniscool]

@ right? “Kill sounds too violent” bro; it’s Sonic Forces. The game you marketed as being dark.

[@gonzalot.605]

Iizuka really (really) wanted to go balls deep with the whole "Sonic is meant for kids!!1!" mentality.

[@jdniscool]

@ which is stupid. Glad he pulled his head out of his ass with Frontiers and Shadow Generations.

[@Sanojavi512]

There's a timeline out there where this game released with a Tails with both esquizofrenia and amnessia, with memorable quotes such as "Thank you for helping us Alt-Sonic, It's been classic", "Whoa! You're... really handsome", "Sonic! Sonic! Sonic! Sonic! Sonic!", "Like a dream so real if you cut yourself in it you'll bleed (?)", "and (at the risk of sounding mushy...) love!", "Not now, I need to save Sonic! I guess we'll be together, Sonic", "I said, KEEP CALM, COOOOL IIITTTTT!", where Mephiles appears and destroys every remaining bit of logic in the Sonic canon, and where my brother in christ, Silver, says "DoEs AnYoNe BuT yOu BeLiEvE yOuR B.S?". Outside of the funny stuff (Which I don't think it's that big of a deal, I'm pretty sure there was a lot of misscomunication and bad direction that shouldn't be blamed on the writers), this video does a really good job showing how the writting evolved over time, keep up the good stuff!

[@Howardpower679]

The story and game was doomed by the start LMAOOOOO😂😂

[@2fernandoc1]

The gameplay may or may not have been doomed to begin with, but the idea behind the story (assuming the concept art was made before the script) could've been salvaged. But if we were going off the actual script, yeah this would've sucked to begin with (with iconic moments like "It's been classic") 💀

[@MegaSombra]

37:20 - 37:25 idk abt the other localizations but at least in the spanish one (which is always based on the english script), that line actually came off weird since Sonic is clearly talking abt Metal, but the connection there was completely omitted and the dialogue didn't get any idioms either In spanish, being "(like) a machine" at something already means to be good so it would've worked just fine, but for some reason they focused solely on the avatar as Sonic's partner and went with "We were like a formidable pair(/couple) fighting... another formidable pair...", which ofc makes absolutely no sense in context (...unless you had someone like Infinite on Metal's side instead of recycling his boss fight near the end of the game... but then again, that never happened, making it even more of a missed opportunity)

[@SoranotRoxas]

Been looking forward to this everysince you announced it. Didn't disappoint either 👌

[@sopix7761]

y'know, that "It's not working, Sonic" line would work great for Tails loosing it according to knuckles, like, he lost his mind still doesn't make sense cause in adventure it was a whole story about him needing to stop following sonic and follow his own path but still

[@CC-ks6nm]

Holy sh*t. I didn't think the original concept would be so much WORSE than what we got, but here we are. I wish they stayed with Infinite as an Eggman creation tho, him having a backstory was so pointless.

[@Raincloud5137]

Isuka needs to grow some pants, dude wanted a sonic game with a dark tone but wouldn't allow the writter to use the word "war" or "kill", the game would have sucked regardless, but he could at least not have been part of the reason why.

[@robertlupa8273]

I can get kinda behind excluding kill _IF_ the replacements don't sound forced or silly. "War" should've been used more however.

[@ashuraomega1000]

​@robertlupa8273Sonic said killed in Lost Worlds

[@fojisan2398]

Which is weird cuz Eggman in SA2 straight up says "Sonic, if you don't hurry, Amy WILL die!" And the whole time he had a gat pointed at her head too!

[@chrange9714]

I find it funny how Infinite was originally way worse, just being a mindless drone that rarely spoke and never said anything to Eggman. That would've essentially made him a second Metal Sonic lol. While they definitely still flunked on everything else about Infinite, what they did get right was his design (obviously) and his personality and relationship with Eggman. I love how he gives his opinions and raises his own questions on some of Eggman's decisions as y'know he's a living being who can think for himself. I also love how he is loyal to Eggman, genuinely being grateful for the power bestowed upon him. Yeah he throws some sass at him but he never gives any indication of betrayal and I'm so glad he doesn't, very refreshing to not have something Eggman makes or uses betray him AGAIN. It's still baffling to me that Aaron Webber rightfully called some problems out yet they didn't do a thing to fix them, like yeah why tf is Silver just here. Why not idk at least show Tails trying to fight back and have him get overwhelmed by Infinite or Eggman's new robots, would've been more believable. Thank goodness they didn't throw Mephiles in there as in no point of the early script is he ever even used for anything major. He'd have suffered the same fate as Chaos in the final game and would've just been there for "remember this cool character from this game" bait. I think one part of the early script mentions that Eggman would've used the Mephiles phantom copy for something off screen and that's it. Don't really know why you're trashing on some of the lines in this game that are fine though. I liked Sonic's little Generations comment to Classic Sonic, it made me chuckle. Thankfully they didn't over play it as they did in the early script and even I agree that Tails saying "goodbye, it's been classic" is hilariously awful lmao. Like what does that even mean. Overall though this story really is just a case of trying to do way too much at once, the whole game is that tbh. And with only a year to do it all after spending the rest of the time making HE2 yeeeah this was never gonna end well. After seeing how they did Sunset Heights in Shadow Gens however, I would genuinely like if they just remade Forces. Remake the controls, story, everything.

[@blacknight7559]

The fact that sonic was trapped and tortured for months... And then you just go help him and bro is fresh as a lettuce

[@spsaofficalchannel]

14:31 it would actually if they wanted to lean into the "Tails has lost it" angle...

[@Pufftarot]

You know, having Mephiles in the game makes no sense, but having him kind of 'take over' Infinite like a virus might have been interesting. Maybe Eggman creating something so close to what Mephiles was (powers wise, I suppose) brought some remnant of him conscious again? Good that it didn't, since there's no way Sonic Team at the time could have executed it well, but it would have been way more interesting than the game we got I think.

[@TheAverageLifeForm]

31:19 I frickn’ love it when you throw in a joke or sarcastic comment, it catches me off guard every time 😂

[@slateoffate9812]

2:13 So same storyboards, different writing. Pretty much what I was expecting. Fan rewrites tend to get a little overambitious for the game dev's context.

[@RelicStar]

I find it funnier that Izuka said not to reference Cocoa Island to prevent the impression the game has more areas than what we got, but then somehow Seaside Hill was allowed to get referenced when that wasn't an area in the game either???

[@playbossthebest936]

18:58 sick burn 🔥🔥🔥

[@bolladragon]

My favorite is the fact that some of the crew didn't like the avatar being named Buddy officially since it felt childish in a Sonic the Hedgehog game.

[@thedoglovinggamer5825]

8:51 To be honest, I can see Eggman beating Tails. Eggman can learn from his mistakes and with him acting even more merciless I can see it. Just make it so Tails actually puts up a good fight.

[@BrotelloBB9]

Bro, this is a very cool video! Can you tell me if there is an early Sonic Frontiers story? If there is, will you make a video?

[@Cifesk]

I have no idea. If there is, it hasn't been leaked I don't think

[@BrotelloBB9]

@@Cifesk OK, is there any cut content from Frontiers in the plans?

[@Cifesk]

@@BrotelloBB9 yeah, I'll just wait a little more

[@BrotelloBB9]

@@Cifesk 🥳🥳🥳

[@LTDLetsPlays]

Didnt that game a lot of “leaks” that were bit similar to the released game? Week or two before it’s release

[@notpearl3590]

42:01 It's NUTS that seeing the Phantom Ruby glow is all it would take for escaping Null Space to go from an asspull to an interesting payoff (if still a bit disappointing)

[@jdniscool]

Really hope this mentions Vector’s “dammit! Isn’t there anything we can do?!” That made in the final game. This dialogue takes place right at the start of the Avatar mission where you stop the fake-sun. EDIT: wow, surprised it was never mentioned.

[@ezequielin5058]

46:04 They Really Said "F*ck The Power Of Love", Some Goku (Super) Shit Buddy: I'll Defeat You With The Power Of Friendship(Sonic) And This *Gun* I Found(Wispon)

[@DragonOfTheNorth7799]

This was really intresting, thanks for this great vid man

[@SaddieMoon]

Any corrections I write here 7:18 He never mentions burning Sonic’s world in the final. While Orbot does say the boss does mean buisness this time in the final.

[@Sully-o3q]

I don’t think this is real, why would Aaron Webber say “lol” as a response on the professional level. He was also a social media director and not a writer. Why would he have such clearance on such an early script.

[@dmk_yt]

I think the implication of the game was supposed to be that after Infinite lost the initial fight against Shadow, he wanted Eggman to make him stronger at any cost. Over time, the original Infinite was probably lost through experimentation and trial and error, and what we fight in the final game is a late stage clone of Infinite manifested through the Phantom Ruby that has all of Infinite's mannerisms and memories, but isn't the original Infinite himself.

[@Zinkolo]

I saw your older video on this, but I couldn't help but still be excited for this new one. Forces is such an interesting failure. They had more dev time than usual, yet they still fumbled by overexerting their team on an engine overhaul that heavily carved into their development time only for it to wind up in an artistically bland game compared to generations...

[@spsaofficalchannel]

Makes sense the line about mephiles was cut... canonically 06 never happened so nobody (except for Shadow due to Shadow Gens... the fucker knew Forces was gonna happen but just didn't tell anyone...) knows who that is...

[@NotMyRealName6]

This game is just another of those pieces of media where the writers wanted to push the envelope, but the higher-ups didn't.

[@akiraevangelionultimateali5199]

I just stared re-playing it days ago

[@justsome500yearoldwithsmug2]

At this point I think it's safe to say the development of Forces was just as messy as 06 despite the safe walls feeling around it.

[@CHAOSMAN-kd1id]

So this game was doomed from the very beginning?!

[@SketchiStudios115]

Where can i find the excel file? The link in the pastebin is dead and i really wanted to check out all of Aaron's comments lol

[@FastTheSonic]

Aaron Webber complaining about the friends cheering is hilarious

[@RedNK]

You could say Sonic really *forces* its humour huh

[@hex-r7i]

I actually like this old script over the original its supposed to be a darker sonic game and this actually kinda shows it dark side

[@Cifesk]

tbh I don't really like either LMAO but I can see why you'd prefer the early one

[@john_negs7720]

💀

[@Nighterac]

Forces was doomed from the start unfortunately

[@Callums-Life]

Sonic Forces is such a mess, but I'm still glad it exists because sonic team have learned their mistakes and now we are getting sonic villains an amazing sonic fan-film based of sonic forces

[@Kaybeeguy]

Aaron was thinking the exact shit we were thinking, especially the ending.

[@Lokoloi]

The conversation at 12:12 is so funny because the supervisor makes the point that Vector's large size makes him seem reliable, so they should make knuckles talk to Charmy instead. The crippling irony is that the scene in question has the characters literally talking about how looks can be deceiving. Tracks, coming from devs who knew from the jump that the tails characterization was dumb and just straight up did not care.

[@areakastudios6704]

So, to put it simply, the game almost took the edginess way too far to a laughable degree, and when they tried to tone it down, they took that too far too.

[@Nighterac]

And people say Shadow 05 is edgy, this game is the epitome of edge, lmao

[@spsaofficalchannel]

24:49 so were forces' devs just stupid? Sonic doesn't need to know what's going on with Tails for this line to work...

[@Sonicfalcon16]

32:34 actually did not gain any traction

[@damongambuti]

mob of the dead but it's the prison stage from sonic forces

[@Electrix21]

I get that feedback is always needed on most things, like storytelling, but if I was giving feedback on the JP side, I’d be questioning if the writers even know who these characters are, I’d rather constantly tell someone that the “photoshop” line can’t be added, then constantly tell someone that the characters don’t make sense because of character development.