Cincinnati's Terrible Billion Dollar Sale of its Railroad

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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:31 Nordvpn Ad
1:19 History
2:30 The Lease
3:10 Why is the Purchase bad?
6:13 Mayor Problems
7:28 Vote No on Issue 22
8:08 Outro
Articles & Groups:
www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/...
www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/...
/ 1363324024257214
/ derailthesale
www.railroadworkersunited.org/

[@alanthefisher]

If you live in Cincinnati Vote *No* on Issue 22! Also. Get NordVPN 2Y plan + 4 months free here ➼ nordvpn.com/alanfisher

[@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty]

All sponsors are scams!!! Vote NO on issue 22!

[@robertgross6287]

While I live in Hamilton County Ohio (where Cincy lies) I am unfortunately in the metro area and unable to vote on the issue since it is not for the entire county. From what I see, I have a sinking feeling its going to pass as people have bought into the lie that we can just take the 1.5 billion and reinvest it to returns greater than 25 mil per year on top of the public infrastructure fixes that were promised.

[@MichaelRobertson-ny5ss]

@@robertgross6287 It's not really a lie, that's what they would do. I'm a no vote, but it's disingenuous to frame this as an obvious grift when the truth is that putting $1.6B into an investment fund will likely net us more yearly returns than what the current lease makes, meaning we can use that money without affecting the principal ($1.6B). I'm more concerned that (1), the sale cost is underestimated by a lot, and (2), I don't trust the state government to not change the law and raid the fund for their own purposes as our state government is terrible.

[@b0tanicus]

Thank you so much for making this video Alan! Cincinnati has been plagued by bad infrastructure decisions it’s whole life and this is just another example. Just like our massive abandoned underground metro this rail sale will looked back on with regret.

[@ericr3878]

I voted yes. Your only accurate point was possible pressure for Amtrak, but that would reduce the lease income. The city was stuck in a rough deal, a 3rd party arbitrator determined the lease rate, and the city has only 2 real options to lease it to, NS or CSX. Investing in a 30 year govt bond would instantly triple the city's income. It seems an easy argument the city got a bad deal from the arbitrator, but here's a way out of that issue. A negligible amount of land leased is actually in Cincinnati or OH, so tax incentives to pressure behavior isn't an option without including the two states virtually all the land is in, and again reduces in one way or another income from the line. Is our mayor corrupt? Maybe, but doesn't change the fact the city is better off selling the line. It is a cool part of history but the rational financial decision is sell.

[@Crazy___Ginger]

Chicago made this mistake with its parking meters. Do not replicate Chicago's mistake of selling them off!

[@Alex_catz]

I just saw Climate Town's video on chicagos parking meters before this

[@pex3]

@@Alex_catzso did 48/49 people liking the original comment

[@matt45540]

This is even worse, The meters were leased for 75 years

[@LarryHow]

It's sad that it needs to be said. But stop giving public property to private holders. We need to be going the other way.

[@blakksheep736]

Found the Climate Town watcher. DW, I am too.

[@tobiasknueven9300]

Native Cincinnatian here. Selling the railroad would be incredibly short-sighted and I have no idea why anyone would support this, on either side of the aisle. I haven’t met anyone who supports this, the only support I’ve heard is from the mayor and city council. We have a history of corruption in Cincy, hoping for bipartisan opposition to Issue 22, but since the city usually votes blue and we have a Dem mayor and council not sure what to expect

[@neilworms2]

Cincinnati also tends to like not changing things, so that actually makes me optimistic here.

[@cancerino666]

Problem with a bi-partisan system. Easy to corrupt. You guys need more parties in the US.

[@RailBuffRob]

​@@cancerino666The two primary parties have become so powerful they're basically religions at this point, and there seems to be a lot more red tape to get a ballot in the lower income areas.

[@griffinwagner8577]

Sucks since Aftab is such a poster child but idk if I'll be able to ever vote for him again after this

[@roger5059]

You should go to some kind of city meeting and voice your opinion

[@cobalt8619]

Norfolk southern, doing everything in its power to ruin Ohio 💀

[@liladog4070]

How dare they

[@craigstephenson7676]

Norfolk sabotages Ohio Gyatt. Is this the reverse rizzlord?

[@liladog4070]

@@craigstephenson7676 no clue

[@jtgd]

Ohioans ruining Ohio with the help of businesses!

[@r3d0c]

nah, ohio did this to themselves by voting for idiots or letting them win for decades; you reap what you sow

[@jonathonreed2417]

They also don't seem to have even tried to get a counter offer from CSX. The entire deal is predicated on the idea that Norfolk Southern would be the only interested party for leasing or buying the railroad. A railroad that cuts through Daniel Boone national forest and would likely cost significantly more to construct an alternate route. Cincinnati's politics has always been unbelievably corrupt, a few years ago 3 city council members were arrested on corruption charges.

[@colormedubious4747]

I'm shocked! Just 3?

[@shawnmurphy672]

NS has first right of refusal, so unfortunately they "can't" (read: Don't want to) bring in CSX.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

CSX has its own sht anyway. I know nothing about the contract but I am guessing the city is locked in to what the railroad must pay yearly "adjusting for inflation". They are still far from beating inflation compared to what they could earn yearly on having $1.6 billion now. Does anyone fckng know math or investing anymore? I haven't seen one comment on this.

[@SleventyFive]

Because they ARE the only interested party. Both ends of the railway are owned by NS and CSX has its own route.

[@shawnmurphy672]

@@SleventyFive Absolutely. Didn't mean to imply the railway provides any actual value to CSX, more just that it's clearly collusion on behalf of NS.

[@Spearca]

I had no idea that Cincinnati owned this amazing asset. I try to imagine the equivalent for other cities, and how much it would cost to acquire in the modern context. The contrast between the foresight of Cincinnati's 19th-century leaders, and the lack in the 21st, is really something.

[@Hibuy-]

yeah its called the rust belt look up they city of East Cleveland if you think Cincinnati's management is bad

[@rustyshackleford6637]

And the mayor calls it an "old railroad," to stroke the minds of the stupid masses who never understood how the world works

[@RailBuffRob]

​@@Hibuy-how much can you really trust a city that had a river catch on fire? Seems like good decisions aren't their strong point.

[@RailBuffRob]

@@rustyshackleford6637 Just be happy he isn't trying to turn it into a rail trail or a busway.

[@steemlenn8797]

@@rustyshackleford6637 Never change a running system. Especially if that systems is a well runnign railroad.

[@mdb9523]

I'm a Cincy native. Thank you for publishing this, I can only hope my fellow residents have the sense to recognize what we have here.

[@MarloSoBalJr]

Does it require reading?... Then probably not

[@micklenier6152]

anyway, well sh!t...

[@AMPProf]

@@MarloSoBalJr Why cant they just make Vote no Disney cartoon.. Gahhhh

[@ricardoludwig4787]

This was almost weirdly well timed with the video on Chicago's similarly terrible mistake of selling it's parking meters for arround 1.5 bil

[@th3d3storoy3r]

Which video?

[@icouldnthinkofauser]

Climate town and standupmaths released a collaboration

[@KevinJDildonik]

For anyone who doesn't know, Chicago sold basically all their parking to foreign investors for the next 75 years. So like if they want a bike lane, they have to pay investors 75 years of lost profits. It's insane.

[@rainbowevil]

It was only for 1.17 billion I think.

[@margotpreston]

@@th3d3storoy3r Climate Towns 'Chicago doesn't own its own streets'

[@FrederickJenny]

It is a real shame, it seems that the mayor won his campaign to sell NS the rail line.

[@Pretender1147]

Also, it is very naive to think that the cash infusion is going to fix the most/all of the infrastructure woes in Cincinnati. Any widespread repair program or major project is practically guaranteed to go overbudget, leaving half-finished work behind.

[@griffinwagner8577]

If you look at the actual budget of Cincinnati, you'd realize just how little infrastructure accounts for costs, it's insane compared next to the police funding

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Like the subway that never got finished. An a non-Cincinattian that annoys me but if I lived there it would infuriate me! 😠😡👿🤬

[@Maxime_K-G]

Not to mention in a few decades' time they'll have to renovate it all over again. Where will they get the money from then? Unsustainable deficit spending is incredibly shortsighted.

[@Harold_Blackwell]

Selling off municipal infrastructure to corporations is only good in very narrow situations. My town's citizenry fought tooth and nail to keep their sewage plant system public. It was a crushing defeat for the lobbyists.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Glad to hear you defeated the lobbyists!

[@Skip6235]

BC, Canada sold their public railroad for such a low price and terrible deal that several politicians were convicted of corruption. . .but the judge let the deal go through anyway 😢

[@bradwilles5152]

the railroad is hardly used either and connects to a major tourist destination that can only be accessed by a dangerous 3 lane highway

[@compdude100]

@@bradwilles5152 Oh yeah, it would be great to have some passenger rail service to Whistler!

[@mma0911]

​@@compdude100 or even some public bus service ffs! How hard can it be???

[@eugenetswong]

According to my searches, it is "only" leased to CN for 100 years, and BC Rail is still the owner of the land. It still owns other land as well.

[@compdude100]

@@mma0911 if they wanted to, they would

[@fallenshallrise]

This is one of those mayors who after getting kicked out of office walks straight into a cushy job at the company he just handed a bunch of public money to.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

They are handing money to NS now with the low rent that can't be changed.

[@davidmontgomery8938]

Walking a well-worn path. I remember how people referred to Joe Lieberman as the Senator from Aetna, and sure enough, a very comfy job was waiting for him...

[@cboylan43]

​@@MilwaukeeF40Cnot so. There is a contract negotiation coming up. The new contract does not have to keep the terms the same.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

cboylan43 And NS doesn't have to renew at all. Another guy here says the contract is locked at about $37 million per year until 2050, that the city wanted $65 million at last renewal but no dice. Both 37 and 65 are still underperformance from what the city could do with a $1.6 billion trust today.

[@jmecklenborg]

the railroad is worth far, far more than $1.6 billion. And the way the trust is set up via the new state law, there will inevitably be years or even several sequential years where it doesn't pay the city anything@@MilwaukeeF40C

[@AndyM.]

Harry Truman said it best "Show me a rich politician and I will show you a crook."

[@Maxime_K-G]

If just 1,308 people voted No instead of Yes, Cincinnati would've kept the railroad. What a shame! Short-term gains in favor of long-term profits. My question is: How will they finance all of that infrastructure the next time it will need to be repaired?

[@de-fault_de-fault]

After seeing 40+ years of neoliberalism in action it should be pretty clear that selling off anything the public sector owns (particularly land, which can never be replaced) is in most cases likely either stupid or corrupt. And selling it to a private entity that currently pays to use it anyway under a lease is either fantastically stupid or fantastically corrupt.

[@chrismckellar9350]

The rail corridor is not costing the city government any money plus the income earned from the lease goes into the city coffers. Neoliberal economics is about 'here & now' planning and expenditure.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

$25 million a year is pathetic for a $1.6 billion book. The city is losing money. I would take the cash. That should yield 50-80 million a year. If Fisher loves government passenger trains so much he should have advocated a trust fund from that money.

[@de-fault_de-fault]

@@MilwaukeeF40C how much a year will the city get when they’ve already sold it AND blow through the $1.6B? They’re saying they need it to spend, not invest.

[@SleventyFive]

@@de-fault_de-fault No, they are legally bared from spending down the principle.

[@chrismckellar9350]

@@MilwaukeeF40C - How is the city government losing money when they are leasing the land only not the rail infrastructure?

[@Thej611]

Well. It passed. The city is selling the railroad. That’s a damn shame

[@crowmob-yo6ry]

Corruption at its finest.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

Well Alan you tried, but the short-term money and the politician's lies won out.

[@illiiilli24601]

Nice ad, this is often literally me. Also interesting timing, being released on the same day as two popular videos about Chicago selling its parking meter rights

[@eugenetswong]

Hello from Canada! Thank you for reporting on this. We had a recent mayor that sold off infrastructure that was designated as used for revenue generating. It's ridiculous. Therefore seeing people speak out about this makes me feel better.

[@mdhazeldine]

Just look at UK rail privatisation for a playbook of what not to do. They need to avoid making the same mistake we did.

[@pootispiker2866]

We already failed on that front

[@ElectricNed]

Cincinnatian here. There are obvious parallels here to the insane Chicago street sale that Climate Town just made a great video about.

[@RcSammy]

midwest cities try not to sell public infrastructure 2 seconds challenge.

[@AaronTheHarris]

After watching Climate Town's video on Chicago leasing out its parking meters for 75 years to plug a short term budget hole, this seems like such a bad idea. Hopefully wiser heads will prevail, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like the No campaign is particularly well funded.

[@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257]

why is the government selling their business when it generates 25 million USD every year

[@WVRailroadPapa]

This video almost sounds like a political announcement as much as the one from the Cincinnati mayor. Of course line is not an old line as the mayor mistakenly said. Most people may not know this, but CSX Transportation, the other big railroad in Cincinnati leases from the state of Georgia the Western & Atlantic RR which runs from Chattanooga to Atlanta. There has never to my knowledge been any push by CSX to buy or for Georgia to sell the property. For history buffs, this line was the site of Andrews Raiders during the Civil War which was made popular by the Disney movie many years ago.

[@georgesos]

This video must be viewed by every Cincinnati citizen.

[@zammymaster12345]

What the video doesn’t mention is that the $25m per year lease agreement is up for renegotiation this year. So we can potentially get more per year out of the lease.

[@AllenGraetz]

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Good thing Cincy took it.

[@joecummings1260]

Sell "This old freight railroad" like it's a beat up old car lmao. Next time I buy land I'm going to say it isn't worth much because the land is too old

[@NicksDynasty]

My hometown needs help

[@skyler8460]

Cincinnatian here. Thanks so much for making a video about this!

[@skyler8460]

Just watched it and I loved everything you said these are some of the things that struck me at first too. Each point on its own is enough not to sell. All of them is just so clear what needs to be not done

[@FlightAndTrack]

Yikes 😬

[@dathpo]

A native Cincinnati an here. The Cincinnati Southern has been a steady income for the city for more than a century. The programs to be funded by the city are not what they seem. Pet projects and eventually lining the pockets of a few.. O"Old freight railroad* it is not! Too late. The sale was passed.😪

[@tylerkochman1007]

My bribe detector is ringing like crazy

[@SonicArrow451]

Thank you for this. I noticed railroad signs around cincy mentioning this issues, but didn’t think anything of it. I’ll definitely be heading to the voting booths this year after watching this.

[@mrvwbug4423]

I have a suspicion that even if the sale is voted down, the Mayor will change parties, cry to the state legislature and have them force the sale anyway.

[@TheRealCharter]

NS speedrunning lowest approval rating railroad

[@lietz13]

Lifelong Cincinnati area (NKY) resident. I did not know the railroad sale in question went all the way across Kentucky and into Tennessee. I thought it was the railyard west of downtown and a couple miles up and down, it’s a horrible mistake to sell that much land. I’ll tell my friends to vote, but due to being on a specific side of the river, I don’t get a voice for this highly consequential decision to my well-being.

[@johnclement5903]

Hah, "being on a specific side of the river". On my business travels to Cincy, the hotel always ends up being in Covington, KY. Much cheaper, and the cross-bridge jitney service is great. Same thing happens when someone goes to NYC on business; hotels on the Jersey side are much cheaper, and there's the PATH train or bus to the city

[@Arghans]

Selling an asset for one off purchases is mad. If at least it was being invested into something that would bring returns…you know, like the current asset does.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

It will be invested in a trust and have better returns than the current 1.6%. The video maker gave you almost no pertinent information.

[@DougGrinbergs]

5:33 Amtrak leverage lost with sale to NS 6:06 corrupt mayor Aftab Pureval

[@paulw.woodring7304]

Thank you Alan. I've spoken out about this to try and get All Aboard Ohio to oppose the sale. I didn't get much of a response. I don't think they see the long-term big picture. Even if "The Rat Hole" division is not a prime rail passenger route, keeping ownership of the RoW in the public domain keeps open the possibility that it can become more of a public "turnpike" for freight traffic from other companies to use, not just NS, to get freight trains off of more promising passenger routes. Also, I've been promoting nationalizing the roadbeds for literally decades, pretty much alone as a Social-Democrat. For any followers of this channel, you know the benefits of nationalization. If not, you can find most of the here or other channels. NS doesn't deserve this gift, the way they have treated the citizens of Ohio this year, and the way they lobby and bully our government officials every other year. STOP THE SALE!

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

Likely because All Aboard is not against the sale. The Financials of keeping it make no sense in hopes a few advocates can force safety, electric, and passenger utopia.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

@@jamesmcmahonii8433 When I talked about it at an AAO Zoom meeting, nothing was mentioned about AAO being for or against the sale one way or the other. I just don't think the subject had come up at all at that point, and I've been a member of AAO/OARP for 45 years. Did you watch Alan's video, about the long-term financial implications of the sale? Clearly this is a short-sighted plan with the up-sides just about all in NS' favor, being pushed by a corrupt and bought-off Mayor, who probably has a high dollar lobbying job waiting for him after he leaves office. Again, citizens of the Queen City, reject this deal!

[@eugenetswong]

Nationalisation of all right of ways is definitely the way to go.

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

@eugenetswong it won't happen, so it's not something financial decisions of a city or state should use to make.

[@eugenetswong]

@@jamesmcmahonii8433 They definitely shouldn't bank on it, but strange things do happen. It's not impossible.

[@pootispiker2866]

This is the most Politics thing ever. Make extremely short-sighted move for a little money while giving up a guaranteed revenue stream.

[@kevinw4267]

They also need to recall this mayor

[@ZorenManray]

Sad news: City of Cincinnati voters sold the Cincinnati Southern Railway to Norfolk Southern Corp. Tuesday night November 7th 2023, letting go of the last municipally-owned railroad in the country,. With 98% of precincts reporting, Issue 22 was passing with 51.6% of the vote.

[@tonyg196]

Aaaaaaannnnddd they just sold it…

[@OhioCentralModeler]

Besides Amtrak, the city desperately needs commuter rail and running commuter service between Walton, KY and downtown would be a MASSIVE benefit to Northern Kentucky commuters that spend hours upon hours stuck in traffic during rush hour every week trying to get across one of the handful of bridges over the Ohio River. Most of that portion of the line is already double track and largely grade separated to boot.

[@johnflorance4356]

Finance grad here, While I agree with your point that Cincy shouldn't sell the railroad, the fiance piece of your argument is flawed. $1.6 billion is worth less than a perpetual annual payment of $25mm (PVP=PMT/R). The present value of an asset is never calculated using payback period and cash flows have a present value that is discounted by interest rates (time value of money). It would be better to argue that Cincy is currently being under compensated or is underutilizing their asset if NS is willing (and able to secure financing) to pay this much. Cincy has been mismanaging the asset for a while if NS is able to justify that much of a premium. I like your channel, but I hope you do more research into valuation and finance. Keep up the advocacy and content. Best, John

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

Is a perpetual annual payment of at least $65 million worth less than a perpetual annual payment of $25 million? The actual proposal is to establish a trust with yearly returns. NS's value of the railroad is unique to NS. CSX and other major railroads don't need it at all (CSX is the only one in that region and they have a parallel route), NS has other options including paying CSX for trackage rights to bypass the line or longer routings on their own trackage. However, NS owns the track itself and would lose that investment by walking away. Any short line railroad would offer $25 million per year or less for a lease and much lower than $1.6 billion to buy it (few even have that capital). Without an operator the track would likely rot and fast depreciate as a railroad asset.

[@johnflorance4356]

@@MilwaukeeF40C with current interest rate, yes 65mm is worth easy less than 1.6 B. If NS values the railroad more then Cincinnati should raise their price on the lease.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

That is an equity problem. NS would value the railroad much more in purchasing it than leasing it. If you look at other comments, the negotiations have already been done where the city tried to get more.

[@DarrienGlasser]

This is the first ever good use case for a VPN I’ve seen on an ad

[@FlightAndTrack]

Ns is an a hole towards Amtrak

[@CurlyWolf_]

I'm right across the river and I'm very disappointed that this passed.

[@davidlazarovich]

If the land were to be sold to anyone (which it shouldn't) it should be Amtrak. I don't know how active Amtrak has been (if at all) in acquiring this corridor but selling it to Amtrak would ensure the possibility of passenger rail in the future. My guess though is that Amtrak hasn't been included in the discussion at all because...well...corruption

[@ilajoie3]

Amtrak doesn't own much rail line, they lease the ability to use lines

[@josephfisher426]

@@ilajoie3 Amtrak could have bought it and exchanged it for control of some corridor more valuable to them.

[@SleventyFive]

1) They don't have the money to buy it. 2) there are no routes that they run through that area.

[@qjtvaddict]

@@ilajoie3that’s why they are useless mostly

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

It would not be a profitable route.

[@davidmontgomery8938]

Great video - any kind of a privatization deal like this is vulnerable to kickbacks, and this is no exception.

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

The city gets 2x forever. I wouldn't care if the mayor got a kickback for forever bringing in maintenance revenue.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

Seriously that deserves a bonus.

[@alfredogarbanzo2276]

here after they voted for the sale, it's really sad :(

[@tony_sheppard165]

This makes me wanna cry… it’s that disappointing, I don’t understand how something like this manages to get a vote on yes… makes me lose that one tiny bit of hope for this country

[@gustaveliasson5395]

*STOP.* *THEM.*

[@Urbicide]

I lived near Cincinnati for some years. The Reds & the Bengals used to share Riverfront Stadium. Then the era of teams threatening to pull their franchise & move to other cities emerged. The Bengals hopped on the bandwagon, & threatened to leave, unless their received their own state-of-the-art stadiums & all associated facilities. Cincinnati is in Hamilton County. Hamilton County has three county commissioners. One of them, Bob Bedinghouse, was the biggest proponent of doing everything that the Bengals desired. The Bengals got their stadium, paid for by a sales tax increase in the county. The Bengals get all revenues, & the city gets to pay for all maintenance & upkeep. All of the financial calculations were based off "every day being sunny one", so when projections didn't quite add up, the city had to dip into their coffers to pay for costs that weren't supposed to ever become an issue. Remember that the Bengals get ALL revenues, & they refused to re-negotiate their contract agreement. And former County Commissioner Bob Bedinghouse? As soon as his term expired, he went to work for the Bengals in their front office. Got to love politicians.

[@HowtoBuildtheWorld]

omg 😱... this kind of ties with a video I am making! (if I ever come around to making videos again 😂) Norfolk Southern owns railines going through the center and downtown Knoxville (on prime real estate) we will keep getting screwed here in East Tennessee 😂😅 I will keep praying for passenger railines here some day 🙏

[@bobsmith2637]

CN employee here. If a Class I railroad wants you to do something you shouldn't do it. Not now, not ever.

[@Del_S]

Politicians? Looking at a short term flashy idea that will impress voters now while lining their own pockets, with considerable long term consequences? That's never happened before(!)

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

As a voter would you rather the city keep earning less than 2% a year on today's cash value of the railroad? Inflation is over 2% in a "good" economy. So without selling the railroad voters are losing money on the railroad AND covering more of the city's shortfalls with higher taxes and future debt.

[@Del_S]

@@MilwaukeeF40C It's like selling a kidney. Maybe a good boost of cash now but you'll be suffering the results for years to come.

[@griffinwagner8577]

As a Cincinnatian and a fan of your channel, seeing you raising awareness of this issue is truly the best thing that could have happened to me today.

[@Foxy_AR]

Love your model trains :)

[@kelvintorrence5994]

This country would sell its own mother and father if they could get cash in hand and dont care what happens afterwards.

[@oldbrokenhands]

After Tuesday night, maybe there's hope for Ohio after all. EDIT: Cincinnati just sold its future. Hope they like being the next duped city next to Chicago for giving up public assets to private companies for awful quick cash deals.

[@andreadeamon6419]

Yeah - i think it passed. Cincy just shot itself in the foot!!

[@jspihlman]

Can you imagine extending to Atlanta and making this a HSR line eventually?!

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

There is no likelihood of that, and how many people do you think travel in any city combination on such a route? A plane a day or less for each one probably covers it.

[@ianhomerpura8937]

​@@MilwaukeeF40C and why should planes have total monopoly? Give people MORE options.

[@TechGroupF430i]

There's 17 flights per day, between Delta, Frontier, and American. Even though ATCF puts the distance from Cincinnati to Atlanta at about 600.4 miles, HSR could still compete with those three airlines since it doesn't necessarily have to stop at all seven stations along the legacy route.

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

​@ianhomerpura8937 people had far more options in the NYC and Pensy days. You know what they chose over the 1000s of RRs? Planes. That'll be the choice now except for short haul intracity tracel, say NYC to PHI or DC. No reason to fly.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

TechGroupF430i You ain't ever getting high speed rail on that full route with the terrain. Any passenger train will not break in to half of the plane loads. Most of the passengers are connecting in Atlanta, not going directly between any two cities on the route.

[@liladog4070]

I saw this on tv and yt and i think they well make a big mistake just to fix some issues

[@PlasticCyborg]

Me, literally going into my lunch break, eating leftover pizza. "Oh, new video from Alan." Alan: Literally calling me out.

[@blakksheep736]

7:19 I appreciate the dig at Economics Explained.

[@Nderak]

50/50 whether he means that or wendover "trainman" productions

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Please make an update video after the election to let us know how it turned out please

[@sleepinonmezzz5374]

Hope y'all decide to hold onto that railroad. As a Chicagoan, I find the sale of public assets results in added strain on the populations property tax

[@human962]

Its sold

[@tafisher4495]

Great video. I think you are spot-on with regards to using tax incentives to modernize the rail and get commercial services (Amtrak) in that corridor.

[@tony_5156]

It’s a viable solution Shit that’s how you get big companies to get off their ass for once, it’s that and/or a big loan.

[@AllenGraetz]

CIncy can't tax anything but what little is in Cincy. And even that has it's federal and state limits.

[@celestewilliams5681]

I am voting no on issue 22! I really hope that the issue does not pass

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

You voted for $37.5 million with a lease expiration vs a forever $57 million payout in interest.

[@WhiffenC]

The selling off of any public infrastructure to private corporations (whos only incentive is profit) is just mind boggling. If they dont think they can make money off of it then they wouldnt do the deal.. You're only giving up something important for short term cash to hurt everybody else in the long run.

[@kskssxoxskskss2189]

Yikes! This is about six weeks too late, due to early voting and the slow start of opponents of the sale. My family here has already voted, mostly to sell, and because most of them are not railfans like me, the passenger expansion probably wouldn't appeal to them. However, the part about tax incentives to force safety work -- especially considering the condition of our bridges! -- might ring a few bells. Still, I'll push it as best I can.

[@griffinwagner8577]

It's disheartening. I know where I'll be next Tuesday morning, but if it wasn't for being groups passionate about Cincinnati's inner-city politics I would've been blissfully unaware. NO on 22!

[@Nderak]

i searched up issue 22 on twitter and couldnt find a single person talking about it, hopefully the word can be spread around in time to save it

[@anamariarestrepo1217]

@@Nderak @derekbauman on twitter check my tweets & replies

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

You all should review the comments on the video, and not worry about the sale.

[@bonsmith3026]

Thank you for showing this topic some attention. Would be a tragedy if this sale goes through. This railroad is worth way more than $1.6b. The city and its residents are getting robbed.

[@benchociej2435]

It's not like cities have really awesome options for borrowing tax-advantaged, non-general-obligation dollars secured by municipal assets

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

More institutions will not buy government bonds any more.

[@xparadoxicallyx]

Local government 101: recurring, stable revenue sources are your friend. Selling off something for a one-time cash infusion seems like it will be a huge regret in the future.

[@jesru101010]

This reminds me of the recent video from Standup Maths and Climate Town about Chicago selling their parking spots

[@pavld335]

Me too!

[@regulate.artificer_g23.mdctlsk]

A convergence there

[@seththomas9105]

As a Class One employee, I would say this is a done deal. The only time railroads play the long game is when there is BIG money involved and NS sees EVERYTHING to gain in buying this line. I would agree that something is probably really rotten in Cincinnati city Govt. Just the fact that NS let their stooge... I mean the mayor stand in the middle of their yard and proclaim "selling this OLD FREIGHT RAILWAY" making it sound like it's some broken down shortline operation shows that he is a huckster for the RR. No mention of NS operation. No mention of how much city revinue it generates per year. No mention of how much city revinue has been generated in totol. No mention of how much will be generated in the future, and the fact that in owning the line Cincy has control of their destiny somewhat. I hope the people of Cincinnati are smarter than to fall for this carnival barker, but I doubt it. One thing that you can bet on in modern America is "Show me the money!" Give me a dime today over a dollar tomorrow. Sad.

[@RailBuffRob]

If he wasn't a politician he'd be the top salesman at a shady used car lot.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

If the city can get $1.6 billion now then $25 million a year in rent means the asset is underperforming. Taking the cash and getting $50 million from investments is still underperforming. Stop talking about long game you amateur.

[@RailBuffRob]

@@MilwaukeeF40C Yeah, take the money and completely give up control over a significant portion of your city, that's a true American politician right there.

[@seththomas9105]

@@MilwaukeeF40C By your bluster and KZbin(Nice job there KZbin) degree in banking we can tell you are a member of the Sheeple school of economics. Your mantra is "Show me the money!! and you will choose shiney Nickles over dollars every day. Big screen TV's, Bud Light, Mountain Dew and Cheetos' are your Mana from Heaven. It's not just the tangible, but the intangibles and non quantifiables that matter and have value. But, alas I believe that is beyond your pay grade. Be well.

[@jovic819]

​@@RailBuffRobThe person you replied to is a lolbertarian, they are a living contradiction

[@tunneltrain96]

If the CNO&TP is sold, the lexington commuter rail proposal is screwed.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

Why? Every other government commuter line deals with the railroads.

[@tunneltrain96]

@@MilwaukeeF40C Both NS and even the RJ Corman aren't really favorable to passenger service, it's hard enough to try to get it off the ground.

[@microproductions6]

The funny thing about the city wanting to use to the money on infrastructure is that this is a one-time transaction. All infrastructure needs to be repaired over a certain period of time, and we generally know how long it takes for different types of infrastructure to get to a state which requires repair, as well as how much it will cost. Someone should ask the city how it got to point where they don't have the money they need for repairs, and where it plans on getting that money in the future. Of course the answer to this is what Strong Towns has been explaining and working to change.

[@SleventyFive]

The money goes into a trust that cannot be spent down. It's a one-time transaction, but the money is not expended at one time.

[@microproductions6]

@@SleventyFive Yes I understand, I meant that the sale of the railroad would be a one-time cash infusion, but the infrastructure that they would spend it on would need to be repaired again in say a generation or two.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

microproductions6 Which is why a trust that keeps generating yearly returns is being used. Clearly you did not comprehend the previous commenter.

[@93greenstrat]

Interesting that some of the old subsidiary companies owned by the Southern Railway still survive today under Norfolk Southern. Also, it's hilarious that he refers to the line as "this old freight railroad" in a thinly veiled attempt to hide the fact that the old railroad is an important component of a huge Fortune 500 corporation.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

That line is not THAT important to NS. They can easily bypass it as they have several other lines. Even using longer routes improves operating expense ratio by ditching real estate and having other real estate carry more revenue. People have no idea of the tax burden that railroads deal with.

[@MaxwellWilliams42]

Everybody in these comments is comparing this video to the Climate Town Chicago parking video, but I personally would have liked to see an actual financial analysis of the railroad sale deal. $1.6B up front is worth a lot considering the time value of money, but only if that money is managed properly -- unlikely. I'll probably vote no, but there's always a price at which the vote becomes an obvious yes... and I doubt that $1.6B is high enough, considering that the railroad sale fund would doubtlessly be raided for city council's pet projects. If they were planning on building an actual metro network with the proceeds from the sale I'd vote yes. But instead we're being told that "no" will doom the city financially in apocalyptic terms, which feels like a gross exaggeration when car infrastructure is already a massive drain on our city finances.

[@DiceMaster740]

I'm distressed I had to scroll this far before someone brought up the time value of money. It's counterintuitive, but because the change in the value of money is exponential, an infinite-duration fixed revenue stream will always have a finite present value as long as the future value of money is even slightly less than the present value. I don't know much about this issue (and I'm geographically separated from it, so I don't have much of a horse in this race), but starting off with the argument that it will "only" pay for itself (in nominal dollars) in 64 years puts me on guard against the whole point of view. Would you buy a rental property if it only return the cash purchase price in 64 years of rent? Even though $1USD 64 years from now would likely be worth about 14 cents today?

[@goldenstarmusic1689]

There's also just simply the option to raise taxes, short term money deals are not fiscally responsible, and once that money dries up, Cincinnati is broke again with nothing to offer. Raising taxes keeps long term funding for the infrastructure you don't just need to build, but build and maintain and operate. Other states and cities figured this out, most recently Minnesota and the Twin Cities who just raised taxes to fund transportation infrastructure.

[@bobbycrosby9765]

A one time land sale is just a bad idea. Once it's in private hands the city will NEVER get it back unless it pays some ridiculous multiple of what they are going to be paid for it.

[@Joesolo13]

@@DiceMaster740 For one, it's selling out the city's future for some current road repairs. The value the railroad provides isn't entirely in money. The point about passenger rail negotiating power is important.

[@skyler8460]

I agree with the sentiments here. In theory a 1.6 billion investment in the future of the city right now would be awesome, but money seems to end up in the wrong places in Cincinnati and that’s not the plan. The plan is to put it in a bank acccount and draw less money than we could make from a renegotiated lease. It’s a bad deal.

[@JJRicks]

Your music choice is always on point 👌

[@johnsamoilis6379]

1.6 billion can be put into an endowment that pays 5% per year which is 80 million a year. Much better than the 25 million a year that they are getting from NS right now. It would be smart to sell the rail line and invest properly and use that money to pay for road repairs and maybe actually attempt to complete the Cincinnati subway.

[@MorganAWeber]

This video goes hand in hand with Climate Town's new video. That one details how horrible of a decision it was for Chicago to lease (in essence, sell) their parking meters to Morgan Stanley instead of managing it themselves. This Norfolk Southern deal has a lot of the same red flags, but would be even would be even worse and more permanent considering it's not a temporary lease.

[@jamesmcmahonii8433]

They're not the same. Parking meters are forever income. It was a dumb sale and corruption was 100% involved there. This is 2x yoy return if its sold. Not the same.

[@cunningham-code]

Regarding the ad, your employer couldn’t see the specific page (or in this case KZbin video) you were on, but they can every website you visit. If you connect to your employer’s WiFi, I highly recommend using a VPN. Loved the video!

[@TheKingTheory]

Thank you for talking about this!

[@ogragan3492]

Very informative, factual and a little sprinkle of comedic relief in the beginning(yeah i paused it and read what was on that dry erase board haha clever)Absolutely stellar presentation, well explained and easily digestible for non railroaders/laymen. Ive run this line all the way from Cincy to Burnside and Somerset when i was a conductor at NS,its a gorgeous run especially south of Lexington, be a damn shame for Cincy to sell it. Hope it opens ppls eyes and sways enough ppl to make a difference come the 7th.... Also enjoyed the Old Southern RR stock footage.... 👍🏾

[@jacktattersall9457]

If the city sells the land, won't they still collect property taxes from the land in their city or do railroads pay local property taxes? I don't think Cincinati could collect or govern taxation of that rail line in Tennessee or Kentucky, so am not convinced you are right about using tax incentives as a tool directly.

[@josephfisher426]

Railroads do pay local property taxes, unless they are exempted locally. Cincinnati should be paying property tax to TN and KY through whatever the actual ownership structure is.

[@SomeExistite]

As a Cincinnati resident, I'm excited to see Cincinnati mentioned and I'm anti-excited for the reason.

[@devinlapikas1341]

Our ignorant city LET THIS PASS!!!

[@yelloweyeball]

I live in the cincy area but a part of it where this wasn't on the ballot. Feels frustrating since the adds for it were plastered everywhere. And no adds against.

[@JackGirard1]

Selling the line would be incredibly stupid. You could easily put conditions in the lease concerning passenger access and minimum number of defect detectors required. Fiscal conservatives should hate the loss of steady revenue, liberals should hate the inevitable environmental disaster.

[@warhead811]

love the coverage

[@megab96]

The city of St. Petersburg, FL is essentially donating 86 acres of our downtown to a baseball team if you need something else to cry about

[@justinfowler2857]

Won't someone think of the billionaires?? 😭😭

[@williamhess6877]

Not to mention the land also sits on a freight ROW too lol. It literally runs from downtown st. Pete to downtown Clearwater and then into Tampa.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

That is called stadium welfare. Every economist who studies it concludes that taxpayers always lose money.

[@artistwithouttalent]

So youtube blackholed my comment for some reason, so I'll just say that I'm filled with longing seeing a Conrail unit running on electrification, and am shocked and mad that Amtrak isn't already using the line. Also the fee they charge isn't near enough. Some back of the envelope math tells me that the line costs NS just over $70k per mile, while the cost of building a similar line could be as high as $1-3 million per mile. I'm not saying $300 million is the number, but it feels like Cincinnati is getting ripped off rn, and that would be even worse if they sold the line to NS.

[@Brett-qt7xd]

If Cincinnati doesn’t sell, the lease will be renewed in 2026 and prices will be renegotiated then

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

artistwithouttalent Building is not a yearly expense. NS's walk away point was about $37 million per year.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

artistwithouttalent AND, NS already pays for all of the track expenses itself. The lease is for unimproved land.

[@alixbechard-demers5768]

😢 they didn't listen, but I know you saw it comin

[@JustJanitor]

Thank you

[@robynkolozsvari]

Cincinnati mayor saw Chicago's parking meters and said "how can I one-up this?"

[@cornholeyourmom]

I would love a rail line from Lexington (where I live) to Cincinnati.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

It is there. Grab on, pull up.

[@robo1p]

CHADcinnati, mid-1800s: Yes, we can build a railroad in our -city- -state- -neighbor's state- neighbors's neighboring state! 2023: Car infrastructure is expensive😢

[@vasquen]

25M a year and they can't fund repairs on city's infrastructure?

[@platec4798]

We had a similar situation with BC Rail here in Canada, it got sold under circumstances that weren't explained. It did lead to a police investigation but never went anywhere. There are corrupt politicians everywhere nowadays it seems. Good luck with it all. Plate C