Why I'm Against Anti-Doping Part 2 - Responding to Arguments

[@clarence0]

Another idea that strengthens my "No anti-doping decreases overall harm" argument I made: In a world without anti-doping what if instead, we used all the money put into anti-doping into harm reduction and education. Instead of WADA, we have WADAA (World Anti-Drug Abuse Agency). A lot of people think: being against anti-doping = pro drug abuse. Not at all. "No-anti-doping" means no drug testing, but it doesn't mean pro-drug abuse. If WADAA educated the public about the potential dangers of PEDs, not lies but real nuanced discussions talking about the safest PEDs to use, the importance of monitoring health, showing higher doses isn't always better, discouraging children from PEDs, etc, etc (a lot more points). This organization could also conduct research on existing PEDs for safe use, something which is highly lacking right now. This would not only have a positive impact on athletes but also on recreational PED users (which in this reality is massive. How many uneducated teen bodybuilders are taking PEDs right now?). As for what a no-anti-doping/legal PEDs world would look like exactly (regulations, ban on sales for under 21-year-olds, etc), that's another long discussion/video. Right now WADA's campaign is causing the following issues (in terms of harm): It's halting harm reduction from being more widespread (because of its influence). This is making it harder for recreational PED users and athletes to look after their health (Denmark as an example) It's halting PED research into safe use. A lot of recreational PED users and athletes are relying on bro-science. It's forcing athletes (if they want to win) to take dangerous PEDs since they're restricted on what they can use (contaminated underground lab gear, untested designer compounds) It's most likely influencing laws around the world making PEDs illegal. This increases drug-related crime which you can argue is unnecessary and can involve deaths. It's halting the development of drugs that can improve the quality of people's lives. TRT, HRT is more difficult to go on in some countries because of the demonization of PEDs by WADA. WADA's dishonesty is also causing emotional harm which is not talked about enough (see 7:24 and comments on this video) It's creating a world of fear, shame, and judgment for those who want to use PEDs. Also, I realize that saying "anti-doping forces athletes to take dangerous PEDs" is true, but it only covers one aspect. "No anti-doping decreases overall harm" is a much better argument to make, since there are many additional points. This is a huge discussion.

[@zorg534]

Abandoning drug testing wouldn't accomplish much. Why would that stop athletes to seek and abuse non tested high-risk to high-reward PEDs? Instead, reforming anti-doping, making it more transparent and more consistent, should be the preferred way, in my opinion. Anti-doping should first and foremost protect the athletes health, but then again is it healthy or even naturally possible to snatch 400lbs or breaking a current WR? Your point in your previous video was spot on, awareness should be raised about enormous pressures placed on athletes that compete on the elite level which necessitates the use of PEDs.

[@eternalpassion7347]

Instead of looking for drugs they should look at the athletes health markers and if their health markers are off by a certain margin then they shouldn't be allowed to compete so that would give the athlete incentive to stay healthy obviously this can be skewed by a little bit with other medications to put them back into the "healthy range" but still I think it would be far better than what's happening now.

[@WHAT_1400]

If they focus testing anywhere it should be at the youth and amateur level, and it must be done with the intention of protecting kids from themselves and from dipshit coaches rather than with the intent to criminalise the actions of youth athletes. Every pro athlete starts as an amateur, but testing is almost absent from this crucial part of a pro athlete's development. In my sport you are already salaried by the time they are testing you with any semblance of consistency, if they ever do.

[@mixalis6168]

Stop doping test, to athletes like you can compete !!

[@Gabriel-ib7cp]

19:52 , 20:56 As fas as I understood, his argument is that even if you remove anti-doping, people perception's of PED won't change. Nowadays there is a large portion of the general population that finds modern bodybuilding aberrant, unnatural. If we remove anti-doping something similar may happen with the olympics. Personally I'm not sure.

[@valhogaard8354]

I suggest a better argument for your Part 3 video: "yes, but I squat more so you're wrong"

[@SoLDMG]

“Here’s my source you nerd” *squats 300 ATG for reps*

[@connord999]

Funny but partly true.

[@noahj5250]

What if toshiki joins the debate?

[@abdellahelazhari8127]

He squat more because of drugs so it's a closed loop

[@noahj5250]

@@abdellahelazhari8127 Clarence uses drugs too and still gets outsquatted. Doesn’t this mean toshiki can still use the “but I squat more so your wrong move”?

[@Wayf4rer]

Multiple clarence uploads in a month? I'm dreaming

[@camdendebruin6667]

Or tripping. Idek anymore

[@bebble985]

Me too, and don’t you dare pinch me, Mr. Flamingo with horns.

[@Sealed_Chamber]

Dream on little dreamer.

[@AndreasFunnell]

Just join his patreon.

[@NeuronActivation]

Rents probably due

[@ray.gene.bowner]

I look forward to seeing Clarence’s response to anti-anti-anti-doping

[@xylophoneize]

anti-anti-anti = anti-doping, so is it same?

[@suomixs3506]

@@xylophoneize no

[@xylophoneize]

@@suomixs3506 Yes?

[@suomixs3506]

@@xylophoneize anti doping +anti = anti anti doping (which means you are anti to anti doping movement) but then If you add another anti its anti anti anti doping (which Most likely means The anti doping guys being anti anti anti doping) simple

[@xylophoneize]

@@suomixs3506 Do you know what double negatives are, son?

[@crashyyy4116]

I'm a simple man. I see a 37 minute video of clarence talking, I click.

[@lucksterhd8774]

where is it?

[@Joe-Z]

The only bad thing is that the video isn't longer :(

[@Jackmerius_Tacktheritrix5733]

Your definitely an unoriginal man.

[@naeemsalemi1712]

@@lucksterhd8774 actually it’s 36:54

[@gexwex]

ugh

[@scott_clarke]

Clarence is a gift to weightlifting community. speaks up when other voices are silent

[@theoreticalfitness7701]

And that is what bothers me the most. You have those other fitness guys who will use a plethora of excuses to support the current system. The current system is built on lies and in the case of the Olympics, has been ran like professional wrestling at one time, with bribery.

[@NeuronActivation]

And doesn't claim natty

[@sergueikoaloff4919]

The weightlifting world needs to grow some balls as opposed to the current bum licking culture we have.

[@mrbouncelol]

Follow the money.... a channel that relies on worshipping the sport absolutely reliant on doping is pro doping... lol surprise surprise. Money talks

[@olli77hajnal]

People like Clarence speed up the process of weightlifting being kicked out from the Olympics. Sarah Davies and other clean athletes are the ones who actually fight for the sport.

[@elimaks7784]

what legend actually makes a part 2 responding to arguments

[@TheCooderix]

Many

[@aworm]

I just like listening to his accent and how he says “argament”

[@MrYidester]

Also like “you Rhine “

[@Bacon-King]

@@MrYidester low key thought that was hilarious. Was waiting for one of the big channels to react and notice, but they were being too serious 😞

[@bigsauce1116]

You should listen to the message too. I think that's the best part of the video.

[@aworm]

@@UserName-71234 thank

[@RolandSpecialSauce]

"Atlete"

[@gcal8263]

i love this community because people are able to have a level-headed discussion about anti-doping or other issues that matter greatly in things these creators love to do

[@shavedleggs5390]

Wish politicians could do the same.

[@josiahok6066]

I was about to say this too, if this was in any other fitness community, people would be screaming and insulting each other like toddlers

[@chrisbilling]

Clarence is really sparking some good debate in the KZbin community. Love to see it!

[@WeightliftingHouse]

And there Sally was minding her own business...

[@Kiido11]

I see you.

[@causer_9537]

I never commented on the first video but the comments surrounding the illusion of clean sport being sold to young kids really does resonate with me. At 25 years old I have committed 16 years of my life to track and field reaching international standard as a junior only to push my body to it's breaking point and mentally ruin myself in the pursuit of being the best. Even going to the point of taking a career path after university of a dead end job which I am ultimately now stuck in and hate. All just to allow myself the time to focus on training and chasing my dream of becoming a professional athlete, only to come to the realisation that my life's ambition is essentially impossible to achieve without PEDs which morally I am strongly against. I currently feel I'm at the lowest point of my life and ultimately i am left wishing I was never even talented at sport in the first place so I would have never attempted to chase a dream which was essentially unachievable. I'm really thankful that Clarence is putting high quality well informed content out there which could potentially help to clear up the lies which we are fed as children that sport is clean and all the drug cheats get caught.

[@TheLiftingGamer]

This is something that should be brought up and talked about more :) the unseen side effects of sports at the highest levels and morality

[@guille8756]

I feel you bro i went through something very similar but eventually caved, i was 23 super miserable feeling a failure so i was like ok I'm taking the shit i managed to have a 12 year pro career don't know of it was worth it or not but at that point i think it was that or full blown depresion

[@trilisser]

Since 10 years old I knew that all sport was on steroids. And I don't know how people in their 20+ continue to believe in shit like that.

[@winchesterX1000]

Damn bro. Curious as to how that happens, not knowing that high level athletes are all juiced to the gills.. not trying to be a dick, I swear. Was it coaches or older athletes saying that sports are clean, or did the thought never enter your mind sort of thing?

[@tappajaav]

@@trilisser Because it's not something that's widely spoken about in public? If you don't specifically seek out such information chances are you won't find it

[@nathanstarkey3990]

Nathan Donald Diaz truly is a renowned philosopher.

[@rockyevans1584]

Hes always come across as a reasonable thinker. Especially considering his upbringing

[@sankadill]

Everyone is on steroids

[@hookoffthejab1]

"This is america nobody knows what a gazelle is" - The Philosopher

[@duskplains1235]

I was about to go to bed. Why are you anti sleeping?

[@jmbs9833]

I don't even get the Arguments anymore, i am just staring into space...

[@federicocarnebale]

Clarence le rompio el orto

[@NeuronActivation]

@@jmbs9833 breathing is fun

[@juliawilliams1355]

Underrated comment

[@Relatablenightmare]

Just implement the Chef Rush workout regiment bro, you'll be alright

[@EtienneYT]

Clarence just keeps on giving man. Can't wait to watch this one as well lol

[@jacerox]

Felt the same way about your video this morning :)

[@ZionsStrength]

Love how you have sparked up this very interesting debate and other youtubers have responded in a respectable manner giving their opinion whether they agree or not. Keep up the good work Mr. Kennedy

[@MCalentin]

I thought the internet was all about 280-character discussions with 0 arguments and there you are, starting a great debate with smart people on both sides. Thanks for this treat!

[@tappajaav]

KZbin(and its comment sections) might not be ideal place to look for such arguments

[@lenisemicolon]

As someone who entered the world of academic research somewhat recently and realized how many people make illogical, unsupported arguments (my former self included), I appreciate how thoroughly you justify your position and the quality of your research. Can’t wait for this to be a video essay channel forever now 💯

[@desoaable]

The best part about the arguments between them? No strawman or other bs like ad hominem in their arguments, just straight up opinion that backed up by facts and we all can learn from both prespectives as well. Truly one of the great discussion that I see in the fitness discussion so far.

[@lenisemicolon]

@@desoaable True, the respectfulness of the disagreements is admirable! Love the requests for clarification on points that Clarence doesn’t think make sense. So wholesome and civil 😭

[@fullmetallifter474]

Really nailed this, and the comparison to the war on drugs was definitely where my mind went. Well done

[@clarence0]

More of an analogy than a comparison. But you could say steroids are part of the war on drugs. There's obviously drug-related crime with anabolics. I know nothing on that though.

[@BUFFALO_cougar_slayer]

The war on drugs in the United States was aimed specifically at psychoactive drugs, so technically speaking, anabolics was never a part of the focus

[@juice8990]

Worth every second. Also, does anyone else find it ironic that these gym bros can have a more civil debate than many politicians have in parliament? I say, bravo to you good sirs, jolly good debate 👏

[@mentals555]

People in government can't have real debates because both sides do not have their country's best interest in mind, and their legislature has nothing to do with the betterment of society. Nearly all of their "debates" are for show, intended to create an illusion that the "views" they hold are for some purpose other than the advancement of their own interests.

[@brandonshook9415]

Arguing in a retarded way is more effective at influencing the opinion of the general public.

[@juliawilliams1355]

This video is literally about you

[@rockyevans1584]

@@juliawilliams1355 good eye

[@davesprivatelounge]

You have a suspicious username

[@esaef91]

What you are doing with this series is of great value to the sport community in general. And i respect the way you are doing it.

[@nj2526]

Clarence, only 3 minutes in and need to add that when you say state sponsored doping, you really need to include the Nike doping scandal in that as well, just because it was a company, doesn’t mean the state didn’t know about it, and how quickly it was swept under the carpet.

[@kimborampage]

Yeah it’s really about the institutional sponsored doping.

[@clarence0]

Good point

[@nj2526]

@@clarence0 It's a bit of a tangent but who really gets hurt more when an athlete uses PED's. Is it the athlete, coaches, support staff, or, is it the general public who are unaware until their idol gets popped. If you dope in any form that's up to you! What annoys me, is when athletes only cry about it if caught, or nations with a clear history of doping take aim at other nations, and start firing from the hip with some freedom bullets.

[@davesprivatelounge]

@@nj2526 The Olympics basically a political tool. I do like the idea of having both tested and un-tested competitions though.

[@waiwong7996]

@@nj2526 health wise - athletes take all the risk Coahes and support staff - don't care unless their medals are being taken away General public - generally don't care unless its about spreading false hope, general morals about cheating, selling crappy programs due to 'natty status' or the destruction of a huge role model

[@deficitstifflegzercherdeadlift]

Great response. Not just the topic and the research, but the actual way you went through his criticisms, responded to them levelheadedly, accepted the ones where he bested you, and provided logical counter claims. I plan on using this series in my English classes to show students how discourse should be done.

[@clarence0]

haha go ahead

[@eternalpassion7347]

I'm 19 now I live in the US and it's definitely been quite demoralizing seeing the amount of corruption in sports I really wanted to be at a high level competitively in Weightlifting but I think I'll just stick to doing this recreationally maybe eventually this will get better but who knows again thank you Clarence for doing this stay safe you 200% Natty Vegan Bodybuilder 🤍

[@ronniemillsap]

hes prettie much admitted to not being natty with his videos...

[@eternalpassion7347]

@@ronniemillsap I'm gonna do you a solid and save you the trouble of figuring this out yourself and tell you that you should probably delete that....

[@psylee8687]

@@eternalpassion7347 why? He's not

[@rmmva]

@@psylee8687 It's called a joke

[@eternalpassion7347]

@@rmmva Yep

[@TheAnvilMan]

13:37 based. Another great video and I hope these videos keep inspiring people to ask questions and learn so that we may get a better solution for the future of all sports. The point about being honest about athletes and their use of PEDs and teaching the public, especially children, about this reality is a discussion that should definitely exist more openly.

[@pyguy9915]

Ha! Is that time stamp coincidence or intentional...

[@failvail2399]

This video taught me more about how to respond to criticism and other peoples opinions than I've learned in my life

[@emmettmoore1804]

i love the simplicity, how its not you sitting in front of a camera talking, its just evidence after evidence and your not hiding behind fear its just what you think and why, very professional and i personally believe this is a good, well informed discussion rather than just finger pointing

[@JdSpoof]

Besides the fact that Clarence has put out two solid and highly informative videos, he then opens himself to criticism and engages in civil discourse responding to said criticism. An example for all of us

[@The_Daliban]

Really appreciate the longer opinion pieces💪🏻

[@badwitch5]

I was so naive that I actually believed drug-tested = drug-free. Thank you SO MUCH for both videos!

[@smolmaninthepeakdistrict5069]

Slowly spreading the gospel Mr Kennedy.

[@yd_]

In both videos, Clarence has demonstrated an impressive degree of critical thinking. I appreciate how his analysis is usually well-rounded and draws from multiple fields, including basic science and historical perspectives. Clarence, if you're reading this, hats off to you. It wouldn't surprise me at all if, down the road, you eventually do a PhD thesis or something on this topic.

[@jayaSet]

He's a vegan, & I heard his arguments back then how clear his rationale was and knew his critical thinking prowess.

[@ShinOuri]

The thing that doesn't sit well with me when it comes to anti doping is that, a future where we've made such leaps in improving our everyday lives and activities through performance enhancing medication (if we want to) is improbable in our lifetime because progress in that field is now somehow tied to the legal frameworks imposed by sports entertainment. It's ironic cause we're making so many attempts to improve our lives otherwise.

[@clarence0]

Solid point

[@guidojorgemamanicondori8309]

yep just entertainment not a stupíd war.

[@zeus-ow8li]

I don't know anyone that takes medicine to improve their lives, unless they have an underlying medical condition or illness that requires it. Nothing is free. Improving an aspect of your life with non-essential medication will cause a diminution of another aspect of your life

[@Andy-rp3ee]

@@zeus-ow8li define “medicine”?

[@zeus-ow8li]

@@Andy-rp3ee medication is a drug used to treat disease or a condition

[@pavelcoutino7378]

im a simple man, i see a 279393 minute video of clarence, i click.

[@tappajaav]

Cool 28 weeks of footage

[@zekrinealfa1113]

When you see a six number string posted on the internet. Hmmmmmmm, is it sauce?

[@tappajaav]

@@zekrinealfa1113 Only one way to find out

[@hopshlooken]

One of the poorest guys in my class was a state wrestler. But he was a farm kid and had access to hog and cow steroids. He was huge, and very agressive.

[@crisp-cornflake3016]

That’s actually terrifying

[@GabrielAKAFinn]

HOG steroids?

[@thomasgarza9614]

That’s some anime shit right there. He was raised by the cows and hogs

[@andreylavi111]

@@thomasgarza9614 🤣🤣🤣

[@TheHaKiBa]

@@GabrielAKAFinn Livestock animals are given steroids to increase their muscle mass, so you can earn more money per animal.

[@chrinarai]

"no Sally! Don't take tren" lmao

[@jackdolanbjj]

The roll out of Clarence’s opinions on doping was set up better than the MCU. He drops hints heavily that he’s using more and more frequently, to admitting, to giving his thoughts on Anti-Doping. Next we’ll be finding out the intricacies of his cycle and what his natty limit was before he turned to the dark-side. Maybe I’m wrong.

[@wEbb00123]

Clarence has admitted to using but he just quickly answered it in a Q&A video

[@hurhurhurhurhruhrurh]

I think he just doesn’t want to glorify what he is using. He wants to use them for him. He doesn’t want to be looked at as a guru on what to take.

[@Croissantrophy.meme.channel]

Let them use, like Bill Burr said: "My roided guy againts your roided guy"

[@seanseanston]

The old-fashioned way, like back in '72 :-D

[@manofgod7622]

I don’t want people to have to hurt themselves to compete on high level. What kinda world would be that?

[@AmisTheos]

@@manofgod7622 clearly haven't thought it through a lot, clarence's arguments are bulletproof. PEDs that are easy to test for are safer to use and PEDs that are harder to test for are more harmful to health. If PEDs were legal then people would take the safer drugs and would be able to do proper post-cycle care with the help of their doctor which they can't do when PEDs are illegal.

[@Txb4g]

@@AmisTheos BS. Even if PEDs were legal there would always be athletes who go for the stronger illegal PEDs. They would still win competitions, probably die sooner, but still a win nonetheless. That's like saying if marijuana were legal everywhere, then people wouldn't do cocaine. And you don't even win medals doing cocaine!!

[@pladimirvutin6645]

@@Txb4g so if all peds are legal how are some illegal in your world? Lol

[@Mastercheese-jr3ku]

Philosophically, your arguments make perfect sense to me personally. You apply critical thinking to these issues and set out the debate well.

[@msn769]

I believe in your last list the first question should be, "what problem is anti doping trying to solve?" A good argument can only be made once everybody agrees on the foundational premises and I believe there are multiple pivots like fairness, health, accessibility to Peds etc. Without agreeing on a common foundation you'll only be talking past each other. Once that is established then the efficacy of that system, the fallout from the system, intentional and unintentional and finally alternatives addressing the shortcomings etc can be discussed.

[@inezm8444]

Very underated comment....well said.

[@primelad2696]

feel so blessed rn, multiple videos from my boy Clarence this month

[@sovietunion8100]

Clarence just seems to have thought about this subject longer and harder

[@clarence0]

For the past 8 years

[@Emil-sh6sq]

Yeah most of the other guy’s arguments fall flat once more thought is put in to it.

[@shohikenmv6708]

@Jim Lahey ????

[@shohikenmv6708]

@Jim Lahey oh I thought you misspelled biased LoL

[@justamustachewithoutaguy9370]

He literally just needs a good coach and properly funded doping to be competitive on the world stage. I'm sure this subject is something that he's very much deeply opinionated about

[@timrhodes1]

Loving how respectful this conversation is

[@datsyuk1349]

Clarence uploading a lot lately 🔥🔥🔥🔥 love to see it

[@robs9833]

Clarence has the wisdom to know about this stuff a lot better than the majority. Thanks for the education.

[@snafoofoo]

I appreciate the nuanced discussion

[@samhuard2498]

Love this debate, two respectful gentlemen discussing and giving good examples and recognizing both sides, cant wait for more

[@Unloadonyou]

Remember when Clarence used to post once every 6 months? I remember.

[@Lavabug]

Exploded Knees Arc

[@nathanielkang2397]

I feel like we need a video of Clarence going through different lifters and telling us with his natty or not super eyes whether they are life long natty, currently on the juice, or used juice but currently natty

[@clarence0]

haha, I might do that some time. No one does that for weightlifters

[@thecaptain1772]

I feel like this could be fun but the natty or not market is overly saturated as is

[@user-gc4ds9mu1n]

@@clarence0 yes please

[@makaan699]

@@clarence0 lmao hopping on the natty or not bandwagon?

[@matthewmckee6289]

literally every elite lifter would be juiced.

[@bigsauce1116]

Clarence is smart, in that he separates the moral sphere from the legal sphere. Well done m8.

[@ronniemillsap]

that is not smart. its heartless and wrong

[@bigsauce1116]

@@ronniemillsap so according to you, legality = morality?

[@danielhenderson762]

@@ronniemillsap for the sake of argument. I think it's only logical you separate what can be separated. Especially when the morality and legality asks different questions and have different issues

[@psilocybinenthusiast3695]

@@danielhenderson762 yeh but it’s all fun and games wanting to say well stop ped use but it clearly doesn’t work which Clarence explained. Doesn’t work so it’s clearly not the right strategy to have.

[@danielhenderson762]

@@psilocybinenthusiast3695 what? How is this an argument against anything that I said? I'm just saying it makes sense to separate morality and legality when discussing the issues

[@cartert147]

Thanks so much man. I'm 17, and now rethinking my goal of a 100% natural junior qualifying total by 19, I'm grateful to be educated now

[@wm2357]

Many people who never did sports on a high level just love mental gymnastics so much.

[@Unloadonyou]

29:30 Seb makes the argument that WADA will ban a substance if it violate 2 of the 3 criteria: 1- enhances performance 2- creates a health risk to the user 3- violates the spirit of sport in that it is not easily accessible to all the athletes In his video he made mention of creatine and how even though it does enhance performance, it is not unsafe to use and is easy and readily available to athletes all over the world, therefore it is not banned. My argument is that TRT doses of testosterone will certainly enhance performance, at those doses it is not unsafe to use, and it is easily and readily available all over the world; Yet it is banned.

[@vittocrazi]

all over the world? how cheap are those things?

[@MrAndersson579]

No athletes will use TRT, but "TRT"

[@Unloadonyou]

@@vittocrazi If the average gym-goer can afford testosterone, a world-class elite with support of a team certainly can.

[@vittocrazi]

@@Unloadonyou that in the USA, but really i dont know if anywhere. certainly the average gym goer in my country doesnt use. Ive never ever been offered to buy... And the SARMS i have actually found in market are way too expensive for the average gym goer. like 5x more expensive than whey, and 4lbs whey being about 1/10th of the median salary

[@Unloadonyou]

@@vittocrazi Whether you can afford it or not is irrelevant. Testosterone is readily available. Trust me when I tell you the average user doesn't even look like they use. People think steroids are magic and don't require hard work.

[@james4066]

fuuuuckin hell, you slam-dunked his arguments. GJ Clarence, even better than your first video honestly. I agree with you, as a non-competitive lifter I tried peptides when I was 19 to decrease recovery time. Knowing that it was a legal gray area, I didn't consult with a doctor, and beyond that since it is a legal gray area the fact is very few doctors could give me any actual informed guidance. With PEDs largely being illegal, recreational users ultimately are at the mercy of their own research standards. I waded through whitepapers going back to the 60s to make sure I wasn't fucking with my hormones or creating a time bomb, but I doubt the large majority of users of PEDs do the same level of research, or are capable even to understand that research enough to make an informed decision. I am a college educated scientist, so I have relevant background/training to make a somewhat informed decision, but I doubt everyone using tren can even understand the forward of a whitepaper. With most PEDs being essentially illegal, no doctors are available to give informed advice to users, so it ultimately results in far greater harm. Use without education is the norm, which would happen less often if PEDs were legal and not so stigmatized.

[@inezm8444]

Fantastic point.....

[@31sebman]

It's been nice to hear so much about your thoughts Clarence, it's also been nice to see that you're able to hold fairly controversial views without being dogmatic, and welcome fair criticism and opposing arguments from "the other side"

[@ErikMata]

Such a great video again. Big fan of you talking about this topic 🤝

[@clarence0]

Thanks eric

[@nelson1954]

I really like this long-form format of back and forth debate. Calm disposition and logical arguments without interrupting without emotionally charged language that spirals into fights. The real winners are the viewers - I think we all gain a much more nuanced view of both sides and are able to come to better decisions. Be great to see presidential debates conducted in this manner as well.

[@ItzTrickshotHD]

At the points on 34:50 I almost started crying. The 4th point I almost started crying, I also somewhat agree with the 3rd point aswell. By gloryfying highlevel sports we make people turn something enjoybale into something in which we have to dedicate ourselves fully to, which can be detrimental in the long run as it takes away other aspects of life. Plus being a highlevel athlethe you don't really produce anything worthwhile to society other than the funds you acquire which can in theory are other peoples money. Thereby you can redistribute other peoples money to help like with charities or starting something prosocial for yourself. I really think sports is at it's best when it promotes health, social interaction and fun, and the other things that highlevel sports bring are illusions of what is good.

[@clarence0]

A whole other video

[@BMTmemphis]

Yall need to do a youtube podcast and just talk about all the points together. An hour, two hours, 3 hours. I'm fucking here for it.

[@mikeb8924]

The questions you posed at the end are, in my opinion, good questions to ask when it comes to deciding whether or not the current anti-doping system is performing adequately and, if it is not, whether the solution is to just straight-out eliminate anti-doping (i.e. a free for all) or put in place a different sort of anti-doping approach (say, for example, a system that tests athlete's basic health markers to ensure some sort of "minimal health to compete"). I do have some issues at least one item from list of "things that are possible right now that can be encouraged". Why is it your opinion that "people and parents in particular should discourage children from high level sport"? Sports -- high level or even a few levels below it -- are not risk free endeavors; the "payback" of a gold medal, a shiny $10 or 10-GBP object for winning a regional comp, or a PR that ranks you as the best within a 150 kilometer radius of where you sleep at night is somewhat minor compared to negative things that only COULD happen to you in pursuit of any of these goals. . . but that's kind of the point and kind of the learning experience that make sport beneficial for youth. I've seen a very high proportion of folks who worked to compete at the top of the national-collegiate (Div 1 in US), regional-international, and international-Olympic/professional level go on to then accomplish quite a bit in their post-sporting, professional lives. Did the drive that got them fairly high-up in the sporting world (heck, I'll even allow for the possibility that some of them took PEDs) not provide life lessons that they then took forward to success in their longer-term, definitely-not-in-sports careers? Might the drive that makes Clarence Kennedy want to chase a 200kg snatch and 230kg C&J, even if he's not going to do it on a formal competition platform, also facilitate the development (or just solidify the existence of) drive that will make him successful in other, more long-term endeavors in life? Is it not possible that his acquisition of broader bases of knowledge, and development of an ability to clearly articulate his views on portions of this knowledge, be related to this drive for excellence that most likely had to be, at least in part, fostered by his participation in high-level (or at least higher-level) sport? My kids do participate in sport and are encouraged to pursue it to that highest level. . . they're not lied to and told that it will be easy and that it will only require hard work and chicken/broccoli/rice; but they are told that sacrifices may have to be made as they seek to progress from one level to the next, and that they should move forward only when they've closely considered the reality of those sacrifices.

[@clarence0]

You make good points, but as I said in the video I just didn't elaborate on all of them because it'd be a 2-hour-long video

[@makaan699]

@@clarence0 We need a 2-hour video then. 🥦🥦🥦

[@josefb.6633]

@@clarence0 I would watch this video

[@mikeb8924]

@@clarence0 Understood. Remember, it's all about the children. . . .

[@GandharKulkarni2000]

Clarence's voice is very anabolic, my squat pr went up immediately after this video

[@CJ_Bell]

Imagine how many kidneys livers and hearts would still be functioning today if we didn't have to rely on just bro-science.

[@mattepton5731]

More great points Clarence. Bless you for educating people on the many faults of anti-doping, and the realities of high level competitive athletes...

[@dml00]

In an utopia where PED's are legal all around the world the following would probably happen: - Pharmaceutical companies would see it as a business opportunity - More secure and effective drugs would be developed - Lot's of trials and research in universities would start, benefiting sick people, average joes and athletes - Those studies would be shared across the scientific community, making some substances replicable on other countries, creating competition between labs, lowering price overall (and be fairer as a result) - Creating more jobs / profits on research labs, pharmacies and sports doctors, nutritionists, trainers and fitness business as a consequence - People dreams (about being successful at sports / fitness goals) would not be shattered or be more securely attainable / realistic - Sports would see a revolution both in securing athletes health and longevity on their careers and also on performance peaking

[@TreatSpin]

Great to see someone in the community speaking up about these things and using logical arguments to criticise the status quo

[@Flyingbreadcar]

Looking forward to part 3

[@jajajdjasjdaj3889]

THIS video is godlike. I loved to hear your ideas. You're genius

[@ethanmcdonough5077]

I love the respect between everyone.

[@nononoleavemebe]

I like that you're willing to make the point that we should discourage children from high level sports and stop glorifying them. I feel more and more like sports are best when they're enjoyed with the people around you and when competition can be kept at a healthy level. Idolizing high level sports leads to a culture where a lot more people are interested in watching sports than getting involved with them for their practical benefits.

[@clarence0]

I rather live in a world that's honest and transparent, rather than a world full of lies to increase child participation in sports.

[@Gkuljian]

In 2001, Portugal became the first country in the world to decriminalize the consumption of all drugs. It's still working for them.

[@scottessery100]

can you buy ped's over the counter?

[@juliawilliams1355]

@@scottessery100 decriminalization is not the same thing as legalization

[@davesprivatelounge]

The US: I'll pretend I didn't see that

[@18pluskiddo]

Uruguay, too.

[@luisnunes2010]

@@scottessery100 We wish. Sale restricted. Can't let everyone jump in and outcompete the usual, three letter suspects...

[@karmasource]

So glad to see that you're ready to have this conversation. I love seeing both sides of the argument in such a civil manner

[@mattepton5731]

This was incredible. I personally believe that the money these organizations make on the backs of their top athletes should bar them from testing in the first place. These federations have had their cake and been eating it too for far too long, pretending they want to ban these fighters and play by the rules when it’s a bunch of BS...

[@mssha1980]

So true

[@charlesbowes1451]

It’s so refreshing to see two people on the internet having a respectful and honest debate

[@mattepton5731]

Most of the parents that have their children involved in this already know what will be required for their children to even have a chance to compete. This is a very difficult discussion. It makes me cringe mostly for 14-16 year old kids that are forced to take this. If you’re an adult competitor that’s one thing, but a kid , and young teenage girls!? Man oh man...

[@sukmidri]

At my high school a football players dad was giving his son EQ. Kid went on to be a top running back at his college and a first round draft pick in the NFL, he was #9 pick.

[@mattepton5731]

@@sukmidri That happens a lot more than people think too...

[@piercep2091]

Thank you for expanding on this topic. You do a great job of condensing information and getting your point across.

[@AkhilSwami]

WOW, Clarence! You've started uploading frequently now! 👌🏻

[@guidojorgemamanicondori8309]

cuz he wants another tremboloni cycle to beat toshikis

[@JunJun-pm4vy]

This was great. I would watch everything that you make in terms of doping and its nuances! Please give us more, these are fantastic!!!!

[@Pawn007can]

The argument that I would make for the 13:30 statement around performance being down would be as a matter of the prestige of weightlifting in the current era as compared to the 80s. The best genetics aren’t weightlifting currently as there is more incentive for them to be playing any number of sports which are far more lucrative.

[@22448824]

Thanks to CrossFit, weightlifting is actually more widely recognised and even prestigious in Western countries than it was in the 80’s. The big change was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iron Curtain into capitalist countries. There is definitely less prestige in those countries than there used to be. As far as more lucrative sports attracting would be weightlifters I think that is a faulty argument. In nearly every sport, taller people have an advantage. Because of the weight classes weightlifting has and always had more than it’s fair share of shorter people.

[@Pawn007can]

@@22448824 Crossfit has been good for general gym culture for sure. (barbells and platforms being in big box gyms i think definitely can be credited to crossfit), but it doesn't attract elite genetics during their formative years. Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, Hockey are picking up the best -- (both cricket and rugby can be added to make the list more international). During the 1980's it was the height of the cold war. Competition between USSA and USA was at peak fervor. This was much more important for Olympian in general. Also the amount of money in sport (for the athlete) has dramatically increased. The NFL paid something like 90k on average in the early 80s. Now it is something like 3 million.

[@su3316]

Love the form, Clarence!!! No theatricals, just pure logic and debate! Its rare these days!

[@imitatsiya]

"Is murder unethical? Yes. (unless you want to make an autistic argument on why it's not)" I never realized how truly based Clarence is

[@BUFFALO_cougar_slayer]

Was the murder of Jeffrey Epstein unethical?

[@PlasmaFuzer]

These are great videos, highly enjoyable. Both of you guys did a great job and remained professional and cordial. Bravo to you both! If only we could get this respectable back and forth in other areas of discussion more important than, don't hate me, weightlifting; then I think people would be much better served.

[@Lavabug]

Imho, the worst argument Seb made (that I'm surprised you didn't bring up) was notion that for pro athletes, breaking down your body through training is all good and fine, but dealing with side effects from PED's is just going too far. When in reality we know that PED's strengthen joints and connective tissue and STOP your body from breaking down from crazy elite training volumes. Also, most of the well-known PED's weightlifters currently use have minimal side-effects when compared to the lifelong injuries pro athletes have to deal with.

[@clarence0]

that argument is very strong for natural bodybuilding.

[@hifumiVAL]

Coppletely agree with your point, however you said "i don't think any clean lifter or track and field athlete has broken a world record" but I think Kevin Mayer a french athlete who has a strong stance against doping in sports has broken the decathlon world record. We can't be 100% sure he's clean but given his public positions it would be really unlikely.

[@hemrajsinghgheeseewan3550]

Very good debate Clarence. Really love you are doing more of talking. You should write a research paper and get it publish. This will bring on more professional views and feedback of the topic.

[@clarence0]

Do you know what the scary thing is? That WADA is not having these conversations or questioning their role in sports.

[@hemrajsinghgheeseewan3550]

@@clarence0 Yes. That's what all companies do. You should affiliate yourself with some scholars/university lecturers. Then propose the idea to them.

[@horizonforevergold]

@@clarence0 I think WADA can't risk losing (more) face for that introspection, and it's indeed a long shot they are doing it internally. If powers that be really cared about sport, WADA would be a health organisation for the athletes. Any other pursuit is futile because it's our evolutionary trait to develop and use tools (doping in this case) to prevail against the odds.

[@ahmedsitnic4105]

Hey Clarence I agree with most of what you have said in both parts of these videos. I think the best way tho to prevent doping as much as possible is to strike lifters and coaches with not only permanent bans to competing but also with HUGE financial fines so that lifters would be afraid to even try to cheat the system even if the chance of suceeding is much greater than in failing. I think it would also scare coaches away of promoting or even talking about drugs in the early stages of the development of the lifter that they are coaching. I think in general we as humans are motivated either by fear of something or by the sense of acomplishment, so in order to prevent doping as much as possible, fear of cheating the system must be higher than the reward of winning the olympic gold (which I agree is very hardly attainable but not necessarily impossible). Hopefully you can elaborate more on this if you think that it is a valid argument

[@leetlikelime]

To understand where this approach falls apart, read about the concept of deterrence in the context of penology. The perceived likelihood that one will be caught is far more effective as a deterrent than the severity of the punishment.

[@wildwilie]

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think Seb really knows much about anabolic steroids or PED's in general. How they're used and what they can or can't do. How different drugs are tested for. The general effective dossing of anabolic for various goals which can be vastly different. He's seems to just be a little lacking in general knowledge of the topic.

[@lawrencekdog6243]

A very mature and intelligent response to criticism video, great job Clarence.

[@jodyg.950]

Street philosopher Nate Diaz be wildin😂😂

[@SeliasSonne]

I really enjoy this debate and appreciate your videos. Thanks for having this argument on this kind of level.

[@hopshlooken]

Level the field. Openly share the best drugs, and provide access for all. I am fine with a top fuel dragster class of competition. We all have to balance risk with reward.

[@ronniemillsap]

great, then make sure no kids are ever taught to play sports and look to play for a living etc. i'm, fine with it if sports arent marketed to children if you want to juice everyone

[@pdsm1552]

I’d prefer that and the kids knowing what they’re gonna have to get into to go pro at the highest levels of the sport, than the lie we tell them now about how they can get to the highest levels without drugs- only for them to realise they can’t when they grow up, and have their entire life be a lie. Read some other comments in this section, loads of people have gone through that.

[@hopshlooken]

@@ronniemillsap I am asuming a touch of sarcasm there, but considering all the top (heavy) wrestlers in my high school were on roids. (In a rural school) We should probably only have high cardio / low strength sports (like soccer) in schools.

[@jamesmobility1746]

Really interesting and good arguments. Love the honesty

[@mangoshake]

The problem with equating doping to true immoral activities (theft, murder, rape, etc.), is that the legal system is flawed. A legislator can appoint literally any activity as a crime, pass a bill to a congress or senate and have it approved, if he so chooses under the pretense of democracy. People are automatically equating PED's with evil because of a legislation and not because it's immoral, which already proves one of Clarence's points.

[@but1z]

Legal systems are the real conspiracy, real Illuminati, who says they should have any power to even make laws surrounding non-super immoral “crimes” ... absolute joke, wake up world, same 60 year old frail obese politicians smoking and eating McDonald’s making laws about how us commoner peasants must live our lives

[@domenicobianchi8]

Solid ideas expressed in a solid way. Really useful video Clarence, thanks.

[@JM-tp3ov]

excellent rebuttal to the shoplifting analogy, i hate when people oversimplify things with analogies while ignoring the details

[@BrendanTietz]

This is such a great response. I agree with both the first video and this response video.

[@dogcatdogable]

Wealthy countries = better PEDs is a bit reductive too. That's not really how the politics of doping works. Even poor nations can afford to pump money into doping programs.

[@d0nnerhall932]

Very important topic. I like the transparency of him admitting that he is not natural. Of course he is not. It's obvious when you look at the numbers he is pulling but there are so many athletes denying it..

[@gruba_____717]

Hi Clarence - long time admirer, first time responder here. A lot of what you say in this video, both as new arguments and supplementary arguments supporting your previous arguments seems to hinge on the "allowing PEDs would help reduce overall harm" fallacy. Why fallacy - well, your supposition is that in an untested world, a using athlete may monitor their health or consults professionals with less fear of being demonised. This is not true, for one simple reason, and that is the fact that in an untested world the policy where athletes are encouraged to do as much PEDs as humanly possible would be institutionalised and enshrined as gold standard for training. An athlete being told by their doctor that they have dangerously high BP will more likely think (as per Goldman's dilema) "so I can still increase my dose before killing myself" rather than think "oh, I should take it easy". And its this which actually completely invalidates your NL/SE analogy, as heroin has no endgame other than feeling good - there's no incentive for a junkie to keep upping the dose beyond feeling good. Not so with sports. In sports, there's always the incentive to push the envelope beyond what the guys on top are pushing it, and if you think that recreational PED use is bad now, if you think that "poor little Stacy" can use in the current lay of the land, imagine the epidemic of use if sports overall had the principle of accepting biologically maximal possible use enshrined as a requirement. I'm sorry to say, but you're not even close to being right on any of your points - the social acceptability maximally shortening your life as a prequisite for sporting success is a morally reprehensible idea, and at least in the current situation SOME athletes get tested and kids can have SOME idols in their pursuit of general, life-prolonging fitness.

[@gruba_____717]

Also, on the murder analogy... No. As a lawyer, I can tell you, there's a lot of circumstances under which murder is morally nuanced - self-defence, assisted suicide, euthanasia, war-time situation, sporting accidents, reasonable medical mistakes, provoked reaction with an unintended and unforeseeable fatal consequence (slapping someone on the utter verge of a brain aneurism), etc. The policing of murders is far from effective and causes an incredible amount of controversial issues (for the complaints on policing in general, just look at the BLM movement, the largest civil rights movement in the last several generations). That being said, do we do away with the police? No, we double and triple down on making them better - same should be done with anti-doping. Also, equating doping to murder represents is a bit of mental gymanstics if we're being honest. As a crime, murder is a moral extreme and if you were going to be honest, you could have chosen a more nuanced crime to correspond to the nuanced nature of PED usage - say tax fraud. Is tax fraud morally wrong? There's a lot of people that say that taxation itself is wrong. Is anti-tax evasion policy any good? Well, Apple and Starbucks had their HQ in Ireland for a long time, enjoying a 0% corporate tax rate, unfairly granted by the Irish government, so no, not really? Does anti-tax evasion policy cause difficulties? Heck yes, uneven corporate taxation based on political allegiances is a real thing and has caused untold suffering by destroying smaller businesses and jobs. So, do we do away with anti-tax evasion policies? No. Just no. Grow up, of course we don't. Hell, man. No. We make enforcement better, of course, but give up entirely? No.

[@Tibia795]

Another very High quality video by Clarence. Good arguments..

[@solareiusdeiu]

this TOPIC i probably very important for the entire CENTURY if not more. humans are able to manipulate his body in sport but not only. the problems we are solving argumenting here. are way more important than we think

[@swagmassa6702]

Love the respectful debate. No low ball insults on either side and I see where both are coming from. At the end of the day the only way to find the real answer is to implement and study both sides of the argument. I personally side with clarence though