Coaching In Fighting Games is CHEATING! (ft. Speedkicks)

#Tekken #Tekken8 #TekkenRanked
How do you feel about coaching in the middle of a set at fighting game tournaments? Some people feel very strongly about it and feel as though it ruins the competitive integrity of the game and tournament. I didn't really think it was a huge deal, but some people are really against it. How do you feel? Today's video is a discussion on the topic with none other than Speedkicks! Top 8 EVO Placer, Tekken World Tour Finalist, coach, lab rat, and OFFICIALLY unretired Tekken player. Check out his links below ~
Twitter: x.com/Speedkicks
Twitch: / speedkicksatl
Coaching!: t.co/W16JYUj2gw
NEW Channel! : / @lotustalksbasketball
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[@BigDaddyWes]

From the EVO rules in 2024: "Players may utilize a personal coach during tournament pools. Players may not use a personal coach during Top 6 Finals. A coach must be declared by the player before the start of each tournament match. Coaches may not change during a match but may be changed for subsequent matches in the bracket. Players may only receive coaching for 30 seconds between games." Every tournament needs to have an explicit rule about how coaching is handled and it's a total non-issue. I think the EVO rules are a great baseline.

[@jadenthecommenter]

No coaching in top 6 is huge.

[@russdellapenna]

I can see the point of having be a "pure" interaction one on one let's see who's left standing, but if professional fighters have their corner men in between rounds calling things out, giving advice and everything. I see no problem with doing it for fighting games. Especially when there's money on the line

[@Nofixdahdress]

Coaching as a format, like we sometimes see on Twitch with the Sajam Slam and other similar events, is fine. Everyone participating going in knowing that there will be short breaks between games for coaches to talk their players with the conversations available to spectators to listen too. Coaching in normal brackets? That shit is wack. Give your friend advice before the set, sure, but once they sit down at the setup it should just be between them and their opponent.

[@heavenly_heavenly]

Couldn't have said it any better.

[@lunaradept]

Exactly this. Once you start a match, it should be up to the players to notice what their opponents are doing, and coming up with the best way to deal with it. Pressure is just another part of the experience, and learning to overcome it and keep your awareness up is all part of besting your opponent.

[@implosiveraikou]

On this topic, I'd be curious to see what Speed's mindset on coaching during combat sports would be. Cuz granted it's a game, I see the methods of coaching between fighting games and combat sports being similar. Depending on the sport, boxing and MMA, you get coached every round. The ability to coach between sets seems like it fits, especially with what seems to be a minute standard for said coaching. I do agree with you Lotus, it does still fall on the player to implement what advice their coach gives, just as it would be for a legit fighter. And I can sorta reason with Speed's mindset on the coaching essentially making things a "2v2," but to my eyes, coaching between sets is pretty much equivalent to having Tekken's replay system give you more immediate feedback on how you can fix what's blowing you up; not to say that between set reflection cant do the same, if youre legitimately picking up on what's getting you, i hope that makes some degree of sense. If there were to be any regulation, i guess I'd mostly see it being that players would need a designated coach, not the freeform coaching; but to me that kind of feels stifling to the community, cuz people will sometimes give REALLY good advice even to someone they dont know at all, and that's how you get those extra connections and people to train against. That's just my few cents.

[@TurtleMonkeyGG]

as a spectator i think coaching is good since tekken 8 is a crazy game full of flashy moves, a little break in between for pacing, to build some suspense and yearning for the next game, just like boxers in their corner after rounds. It also gives the spectator some thinking time to wonder what advice is being given? What changes does he/she need to make to win? and a reminder of what's at stake.

[@sauce.k]

Coaching isn't cheating for a very simple reason. No one can explain how to be good at something to you. It requires execution, being able to process what you're being taught. You can have the best teacher but if you don't have a student mentality, it won't matter. Natural talent & hard work are also factors. You can't boil someone's success down to the fact that an experienced person passed their knowledge onto them. You can pass on knowledge but not your gifts.

[@Spawnamvs]

I think coaching is fine as long as theres a time limit in place (15 seconds) and it's a pre-selected person. If you choose to not bring a coach then that's fine Edit: Changed the time from 30 to 15. I feel 30 is too long of a break in between sets

[@vankil5082]

While I think speedkicks argument has merit, we have sports we consider 1v1 that allow coaching, ( boxing, and UFC) That I would not classify as team events now, because while advice is helpful the player still has to perform. There are others like Tennis where coaching is not allowed so its hard to say what is and isnt right?

[@zephune9506]

Its actually allows in tennis now

[@majones117]

Hell in Golf the caddy has stats, map out distances, and coach the player. It's still a solo sport. I think the issue is people are being too prideful and refusing to use a coach and players who take way too much time while being coached. I think players need to start calling officials on players who take too long to enforce that 60sec rule

[@BanditTools]

I don’t agree with the framing that boxing and ufc are 1v1 sports when the corner of each fighter is very important. These fighters are training with their corner 24/7. I highly doubt Tekken players are with a coach at even a fraction of the rate of these sports. It’s incomparable imo.

[@zephune9506]

@@BanditTools what does that matter? These tekken players always train against the people that coach them??

[@daisydolI]

@@BanditTools I completely agree and I have no idea why people keep comparing the both at all..

[@NumbersLetters_]

I was hoping yall were gonna touch on how coaching is allowed in other rl sports. Even 1v1 combat (ala fighting games) sports have coaching between rounds.

[@Shimari1221]

Coaching for sure needs to be limited. Having a coach come in after every set just drags the time, and its kinda unfair to players who decided not to bring a coach plus it's more interesting to have the players try to figure out eachothers weaknesses win real time rather then some person spoon feeding you info

[@Spawnamvs]

@@Shimari1221 A lot of the time, a coach may point out what you already know, reinforcing what you're already doing so saying it's being spoon-fed is kinda disingenuous to me, but I do agree that it's more interesting to see the adaptation from the players I don't think it's unfair if it's allowed

[@TonezWYA]

it really depends like if your gonna claim some gaming scenes as a sport than coaching shouldn't be a problem since most sports let coaches give advice and put faith in their athlete

[@muckdriver]

I see it like sports. Idk why it's an issue sometimes. The time allotted definitely needs adjustment no more than 10-20 seconds maybe? That is if 'ts taking time away between matches, if the character select timer is the factor then goofy ahh gripe. If the coach stands off stage yelling then it's whatever.

[@smartcurry]

Most sports we have that are 1v1 like boxing, ufc, etc have coaches with em to give them pointers or get their fighters in the right mental state but we never say oh they’re cheating or it’s a 2v2 and they do it in between rounds as well and we can’t use the reason of its a mental based sport cuz ur mental can effect u in any sport/competition and if u don’t have the ability to execute everything ur coach is telling u he could give u the whole blueprint on how to win u can’t execute it won’t matter there’s mental mind games in every sport including team based games cuz u could have a whole game plan if the other team sees through it u gotta change tactics on the fly n hope for the best outcome

[@JJdragon9]

Great video loved this, having someone from the outside looking in does seem like a advantage but getting a coach feels like the same as learning match up knowledge and how to punish certain moves and frame data

[@NekMinuteG]

Well it’s subjective, most of you are not professionals and are forced to work out your opponents by yourself and watching professionals getting advice while in a tournament definitely makes the majority people upset, especially if your favourite is losing.

[@MiguelAldanotes]

Subjective to the audience perhaps. But Speedkicks IS a professional and feels that it plays an unfair advantage, especially if it's unregulated. The point of a PvP IS to see if a player can work out the opponent

[@chucklos391]

What are you talking about? Subjective? It’s not. Another argument against it is that it’s utterly annoying for viewership. Some of these tournaments last too long and they could be short by not allowing coaching.

[@Digital.midori]

@@chucklos391coaching has nothing to do with time. You act like they sit there for 5 minutes. When you lose you can go back to character select screen, sit there and then pick your character over again after a loss. Which takes the same amount of time as coaching

[@justin200310068]

It’s basically a sport it’s like saying there shouldn’t be a coaching in basketball same concept

[@chucklos391]

@@Digital.midori weak sauce argument. Coaching is for panzies.

[@SuddenFool]

Looking at the "lower" level of Tekken and how effective coaching mid match can be. I suppose 1 can look at Sajam Slam 2 where most teams had their voice open so their coaches on the teams could live coach doing the matches and how big of a difference it made at times. Personally like Lotus said. In most other sports and even Esports coaching is a thing that's allowed. So maybe just put a time limit on it for how long they can be coached between games???

[@xsmockjrx]

Coaching is not cheating hence why boxers do it, foot ball players do it, NBA players do it. It's part of the game.

[@cryn6519]

Regardless of it being regulated, i like watching tournaments. But the constant coaching interrupts the flow of the match so much, as a viewer, i can’t even imagine that as someone who won a game, getting your flow interrupted by some outsider paragraphing in your opponents ear would feel fair… I’d be way more on board with it, if the tournaments would have like… multiple ft2s, and then coaching between sets… Now i don’t compete cause i’m bad at the game… so this is just as a viewer

[@IamDeftly]

I will add to the TWT rule that says you're allowed one coach for 60 seconds. Even with the rule in place, there were several times during Mixup where the coaching lasted longer than 60 seconds. The longest I saw on stream was nearly 2 minutes in top 64 I think.

[@majones117]

THAT'S the only problem I have. If a player is being coached for too long it should be forced to wrap it up. Repeated offenses should lead to round losses as well.

[@ChristopherWaddelow]

Honestly, the appeal of Tekken for me was the 1v1 aspect. I came from Overwatch, DbD, Souls games, Battlfield , Apex Legends. For Honor was my closest experience to Tekken, and I craved the idea of a 1v1 where everything is on me. If I was to go to a tournament, I don't think I would be a fan of that idea currently being broken down by coaching.

[@MiguelAldanotes]

I align myself with Speedkicks pov a bit more. The second you add a coach, it stops being a pvp cause the ability to analyze and read an opponent can no longer be credited to just the one player. It'd be different if it were a team vs team type tournament or if they BOTH agree to having a coach prior. Another solution would be allowing folk to hear the coach to see if the advice lead to a win, Idk😅

[@DummyChessman]

Yep, coaching is cheating. The ability to analyze & pickup the smallest hints of biases in your opponent's playstyle while trying to actually win that match is one of the skills that makes a 'skilled' Tekken player. Coaching makes it so that we can leave that whole entire aspect of the game to a 3rd party. It's lame. The players must be left by themselves to solve the puzzle their opponent has put for them.

[@Shadowking1304x]

I agree but also as a competitive player, I think it should be allowed in the higher tournaments like evo to some degree me personally I ain’t never have a coach, but I have a training partner and sometimes just having them with you can boost confidence It’s like having a wingman you don’t need them to give u tips all the time but sometimes u just have to have someone say u got this to get that bag real quick

[@nujevad28]

What about in actual sports? Boxing and MMA have coaches, and no one has a problem. Are they cheating?

[@DummyChessman]

@@nujevad28 🤦‍♂

[@Justcoastinnn]

The facepalm but no counter argument​@@DummyChessman

[@DummyChessman]

@@Justcoastinnn The argument is so stupid it doesn't warrant an answer.

[@Videoenjoyer54]

Coaching is fine as long both sides have access to it and notify before match start. But if only 1 side has a coach I think it should not available for neither players for the duration of that particular match.

[@MonkeyDCaleb]

So I watched the full video before leaving this comment. While a good discussion was had, I don't agree. Coaching is there to point out flaws in the other player to help. But it's up to the coached player in to perform. Coaching is for everyone and if you don't have a coach, oh well. Life isnt fair and you can learn without a coach. I can get the down sides of coaching. And definitely don't use the smash community as an example because watching tournaments for that, coaching should be allowed and everyone needs to get better without banning and whining about characters like Steve and Kazuya. (To be fair to smash though, it doesn't have a good team of workers patching the game continuously to make every fighter better) Coaching should stay. 60 seconds of advice isn't that bad. 1 coach per person. If there are any changes, maybe only 1 coaching advice overall. Not between sets but for the entire match?

[@StellarD00d]

During Evo one of the commentators said "Damn man we GOTTA get these coaches mic'd up, we gotta know what's goin on with this..." and if ANYTHING yea totally. But nah I say ban it for sure. Main thing cuz yea it is 1v1... but also like you said getting that momentum buff and then being forced to take a full minute break cuz the other guy wants to talk to his friend is so fucking annoying I'm sure not only as a competitor, but also as a spectator.

[@williamjohnson7087]

Completely random but thank you lotus. You were right. I’m watching the original dragon ball series and it is really good

[@CLO_Rage]

One of the aspects of being pro is being able to adapt mid match if you need a coach to do that you then idk what to tell you if anything it should only be like 15-20 seconds like it’s the same as a water break

[@bigsarge1982]

My issue with it is in between matches... it shouldn't happen.. you are killing the winner's momentum and it isn't pure competition.

[@Quince477]

Im fine with coaching if both players can receive one. Also, 30-60s should be a standard if coaching is continued

[@Lexanvalentine]

Maybe coaching can be limited by having a coach in your tournament registration so only 1 person is able to do it per player (I would say to make your coach have to have sponsor affiliation but confirming that mid tournament for potentially every player would be too much).The duration of coaching needs to go down as well, anything more than 10 seconds is kinda crazy ngl.

[@NemSumeragi]

Big paragraph coming. Really to me the biggest differences between Fighting Game coaching and other sport/esport coaching, is that: 1. The coach COMES with the team. In higher level sports competitions, teams are practically an organization of sorts. Like I'm pretty sure they're paid to be there. Competitors in a fighting game tournament are competing as individuals, unsponsored or not. 2. Coaching time is part of the match. In each match, there's either time included for coaching or there's a limited amount of time outs the coach can call for. And then there are refs to keep time and yada yada. And 3, i think the thing that ties it all together, is that fighting games are STILL ultimately grass roots. And since it's all individuals, you got like 500+ people in a single game. On top of that, tournaments run multiple games, and the tournament only goes on for 3 days. 2 if your game is smaller. 1 if it's even smaller. Like in regular sports it's like, a handful of teams play each day? And the whole tournament goes on for more than a weekend? So realistically coaches just can't work in a fair way in fighting games with how tournaments are run now. HOWEVER, in the bigger invitational stuff, like AWT Finals, TWT Finals, Capcom Cup Finals, Red Bull Kumite, Topanga League, etc. Those events with only like 16 or so players. I think coaching CAN be a thing that can be integrated into those formats. Probably with a once-per-set limitation similar to other traditional sports. I mean hell, there's already evidence of coaching being inegrated in a healthy way with Sajam Slam. Granted, that event is nowhere close to a traditional 16 player invitational format. But the point is still there. Tournaments anyone can enter in? No coaching. Invitational/Finals? Sure, I'm down as long as it's done well. The next issue that arises tho, is *who* you get as your coach. Sure, the team that sponsors the players could hire a coach, sponsor one, etc. But due to the nature of the game, there will very often be multiple players of the same team in the finals. And they can play each other. So like, does the team need to hire multiple freelance coaches? Cause surely they won't hire like, a coach for each of their players. So then what? So then you just don't allow coaching to begin with 😂

[@Nappybara97]

This comment need more likes. This is well thought out and explained very well the situation of FG coaching. I was coming to an conclusion close to this, but couldn't put it into words until I read this comment

[@7thesage853]

Coaching happens in so many sports like boxing, basketball, volleyball, etc. It makes sense that it exists within fighting games as well

[@TheTarek1993]

im gonna compare it to real martial arts (i did taekwondo for most of my life but i think its the same across the board i.e. boxing) between rounds/sets you go to your corner TO YOUR COACH and he tells you what he observes and what you should try doing in the next round or if to keep doing what you are doing. if we consider coaching between sets in tekken cheating than 99% of sports history is cheating. even in team sports coaches give a specific player instructions to bring onto court a lot of the time. live mid game coaching is a part of every sport and always has been and doubt it will ever change. edit: for those saying that "if you dont bring a coach you are at a disadvantage" yes that is true and once again will compare it to my own experience during martial arts tournaments. my coach was sometimes busy coaching a fight from a different participant and yes it is a disadvantage cause you dont see enemy tendancies in the heat of a fight as well as someone from outside the ring. but most of the time its either circumstance or personal choice. sometimes i wasnt in the mental state to receive coaching cause it tilted me harder than going through it on my own but i guess thats ego xD

[@Ph3n9om]

I liken Fighting games to combat sports. I don’t think there is anything wrong having time for coaching. However, just like in combat sports I believe the public should be able to hear what coaching the person is receiving. 🗣️MIC UP THE COACHES !!!

[@sonicandshadowsjunction]

I guess I get what they're saying, but I don't view this sort coaching as any different than boxing. Your cornerman can give you advice and point you in the proper direction for gaming winning plan, but at the end of the day, anything can happen. It's a combination of your own skills and observations with someone who may be seeing things slightly different given their perspective as an avid spectator rather than being in the ring proper. It's not like it'd give you a demonic advantage if someone came up in between matches and said "oh he sure seems to favor the medium version x move or backs off a lot when you use y move", adjustments can be a bit easier with that insight, but there's no guarantee it helps in the end. I think a good example is playing with friends. You can be playing your friend and they COULD just outright tell you why you're losing to them so often, but even with those worthwhile nuggets of advice, the adjustments still have to be made and even then you could get your counter countered or your adjustments readjusted to. Nothing is set in stone (unless the game is like really bad with character balance regardless of skill).

[@SushiBurritoPapi]

Gaming is more akin to chess. If I see a coach appear mid match during chess, then that’s cheating.

[@char-rez83]

If they are going to allow coaching, IMO the format for the fighting games should change. Perhaps kind of a first to 5 or 10 with breaks kind of like boxing.

[@Hellspeth]

This is quite simple to solve I'm not sure what's the problem here... Someone doesn't have one you don't get one!

[@princevegeta3569]

IMO, coaching should be done when you're not in a tournament set. If you're in the back or somewhere not in a tournament setting/environment, coach or get coached all you want. When you're in that setting, you represent yourself and whatever, but play by yourself (at least in a 1v1), so you should just play the set. Win or lose, it is what it is. What would I know, though? I don't compete. Maybe I'm missing something.

[@voltjutsu]

I consider coaching in fighting games not cheating, but an annoyance. It causes delays...

[@Dyleniz]

Your dreams do come true for you right lotus

[@yurazah]

fighting games and say boxing are not the same, if your getting owned in boxing the coaching might help but I doubt it will change much, in a fighting game if your getting owned by some tech or move and you dont know how to deal with it then your buddy slides in and tells you the counter play it could drastically affect the match and not everyone has a coach or wants the hassle of getting one, so its unfair to expect everyone else to get one so you can have one

[@NightFoxZero]

I think the simplest way to breakdown this whole debate is to compare esports game types to official sports and how they’re handled. If it’s a big team game with matches that can go on for a long time, coaches are perfectly fine then because it’s like basketball or football. The coach is there between things just to guide the team as whole. For fighting games, if it’s 1v1 then you shouldn’t have a coach and should fall under similar rules to chess. Both games have layers upon layers of decisions and outcomes but ultimately it’s up to the player with the stronger mental focus to figure out how to win by themselves. Now if it was a team based fighter like 2v2s i think coaching is fine but should be held to only between sets instead of between each game.

[@Rain87166]

my biggest problem with it in tournaments, is that it is ovedone so much like hurry up you lost. damn

[@dorin497]

whether a coach mid-game is acceptable or not, there should be official rules about it so that everyone coming in to the tournament knows and agrees to it. i personally don't want coaching mid-game.

[@HaRu-mu8it]

Book has liked this video

[@aspenaf]

16:04 low-high rolling his eyes is how I feel as a spectator when coaching happens

[@Leequidude]

Lowhigh coached Jeondding in the same tournament though

[@blaximum]

​@@Leequidude yeah he coached Jeondding multiple times. And he wasn't brief.

[@Randomdad.]

Your problem is don't be brief 😂😂

[@ohpeep3723]

Korean players coach each other all the time. And yeah they aren't brief when they are doing it.

[@majones117]

I see midset coaching the same as mid fight coaching in combat sports. As long as people are not taking excessive time to coach, it's fine. Now if people are taking that excessive time, they should be warned and eventually punished with a round loss if they continue to violate the rule. If I was in tournament, I would absolutely call an official on someone slow rolling a match.

[@BlackJustice2637]

I see it as almost exactly the same as boxing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the coach can point stuff out in between rounds. Nothing wrong with that. The only thing that would be somewhat messed up was if one person had a coach and one didn't, but I feel like it's just another part of the list of advantages a player might have, along with a strong local scene for practice mates and an expensive, high quality controller among other things. As long as we regulate it well, it's not a problem. Maybe we do things like the US judicial system, where anyone on trial is entitled to a lawyer. Everyone is entitled to a third party coach's advice? Or maybe keep it to top 8, idk

[@Lurkmaster9000]

Personally, both have a coach or no coach at all while also making the time limit 30-45sec. What y’all think?

[@savageage1177]

i didnt agree with it being cheating b4 this vid but now i do. to make a strange but accurate analogy, its like mortal kombat 1. it should be 1v1 and we should see it as such but them assists are the reason i dropped the game because it doesnt feel like a 1v1 andit takes away some of the mk feel for me. im pretty sure im not alone on this. or mk9 2v2s wouldve been more popular

[@darnell7871]

I feel it would be a bit nice if we could hear the coaching cause it can feel a bit jarring. Hell we can hear the coaching sports even in UFC.

[@elbandito2990]

There is just less pros to coaching than cons. Id be more inclined to be okay with it if its closed bracket, but one bracket is just a bit too much

[@rusty_nl]

Personally I feel coaching shouldn't be allowed during tournaments, including pools, but beyond that it doesn't really matter. Tournaments are meant to test your skill as a player, against other players, and coaches kind of throw a wrench in that. There's also a lot of entertainment value that gets lost in addition to competitors being snapped out of their flow whenever a coach gets brought onto the stage between sets. It's really disruptive, and I feel it's pretty contradictory to the spirit of it all

[@Deadlift4chips]

End of the day if it’s for a bag and it’s competition…coaching is fine. Now obviously if we’re getting 5 minute discourse on your opponent that’s a no. Otherwise think it’s fine.

[@jinnosuke4463]

Only issue i see is holding up the other competitors, the commentators, and the viewers. Its bad etiquette.

[@shs1489]

경기 중에 코칭없는 스포츠가 몇이나 된다고? 이게 왜 논란인지도 모르겠다

[@dudeguyjoey]

Is there a rule where I can talk shit to the coach during the coaching so it mentally throws off my opponent? Mental stack ya know

[@mangoblitz9285]

would be interesting if they let the opponent choose whether or not to allow the coach for the set, but overall think coaching should be banned

[@JonCail24]

It slows the game down and kills momentum.

[@georjira]

controllers with back paddles should be allowed if hitboxs and such are allowed theres no difference between them.

[@isaacwilliams7205]

Well the only other irl sport besides fighting sports that I can think of that is 1v1 is tennis and tennis bans coaching mid-match. Soooo yea ban it why not.

[@Kekkai_]

Coaching should be banned because of several reasons but the big ones for me are: I'll start off with the biggest one for me and it's that it goes against what the community values from FGs and how they are set up. These are open bracket SOLO entry tournaments. Coaches aren't included in that entry and gives influencers and people with money an advantage over a regular person without funds and/or friends in the particular community. It simply is an unreasonable advantage for the standard open bracket tournament format. On top of that, It disproportionately affects longer sets. In a best of 1 coaching will be of little use but as the number of matches increase the strength of the coaching increases and amounts to what essentially is a 2v1 if the other person doesn't have a coach. Imagine deathmatches where one person comes with a coach interrupting between every match. That shit is wack and betrays what a Deathmatch is. I argue it's the same for regular Bo3 sets. People comparing this to combat sports or other physical sports in general need to realize that not all sports are alike or need to be alike. Like imagine arguing FGs should allow players to converse with their coaches through a headset during matches because Nascar allows it. Be forreal people.

[@ZoeLogiiK]

Home boy threw in the GTA San Andreas Cheat Codes.

[@yareyarebankai6841]

I don’t think it’s cheating more so takes you out of the experience. Fighting games are 1 v 1, YOU vs the other. You lock in, distractions go away. Coaching for competitive multiplayer games sure, but if you need advice during a 1 v 1, your mental state needs re-working. Own that L to work for that win YOU strived for. Maybe it’s a cultural thing where the East players can’t handle getting smoked by themselves with no help but that’s fighting games in the competitive scene 🙂‍↕️ Project L is trying to change that with their co-op fighting game where eh…I’d rather have a CPU as my partner than someone local or a random, cause I know the computer won’t fold for me lmao

[@Paul_Frank]

Boxers and MMA fighters will have their corner give them advivce after every round. Unless you think that's cheating, there's not an argument for coaching in fighting games to be cheating To the one guy who keeps replying to everything mentioning this fact with "but the corner is with the fighter so much its not the same", not only is that argument braindead, but the main issue Speedkicks brings up still exists. The coach gets to analyze the match from an outside pov and provide helpful advice, on top of being able to scout the opponent beforehand

[@MAWKY_MAWK]

I literally didn't even know coaching was a thing for fighting games. I'd say it sounds like cheating especially in a 1 vs 2 scenario. I think having a trainer leading up to a tournament are helpful but not coaching between matches

[@leondon7421]

Me personally i don't like it, seems more like a tactic to steal momentum from the opponent. I know some people are going to disagree but it's just my point of view. Players spend months training for comp day, and it should come down to the player and his skills to adapt alone.,

[@azuresaiyan9005]

The losing player can take a minute break without the coach anyway, so it doesn't change anything.

[@zachbell1542]

Funny you didn't say this with afro and rdc

[@LotusAsakura]

That's not remotely the same. We are talking about in an organized, official tournament. That's not in the same stratosphere as a bunch of homies just talking shit and playing the game together. I should NOT have to explain that lol.

[@BanditTools]

What I don’t understand is trying to replicate sports 1:1 and using that as an excuse. Why? Can fighting games not be their own thing and be a strictly 1v1 contest? Most things the fgc adapted from actual sports has been to it’s own detriment anyways.

[@yellowscarlightningscream8347]

This is the dumbest argument. No matter how much coaching you get, the player has to get the job done at the moment. In real sports as well there is constant coaching but the players have to deliver.

[@Counselor-yj8hk]

But Video Gaming isn't a physical sport. Its an E-sport. Its a Mental Sport. Coach in a chess match and its considered cheating.

[@yellowscarlightningscream8347]

@@Counselor-yj8hk Chess and Esports are completely different genre of games. in Esports, the player still has to play the match with their own intelligence and expertise. Every character is different in Tekken and requires execution and game plan. Coaching cannot guarantee you wins. There have been many cases where the player getting coached lost to the player who didn't had any coach.

[@zephune9506]

@@Counselor-yj8hkcoaching in chess is not possible without telling them exactly what to do. E sports is closer related to boxing where you can give instructions, but the person still has to perform

[@katacomi_2767]

To me a coach is cheating its an outside view while fighting someone. Its like getting a cheat sheet on your opponent like when they go for certain combos there way of playing and openings they leave. unless theres a coach for each player it seems like one player has an advantage due to a way of seeing the game that none of the players would have normally.

[@mooodybluez]

There’s coaching in boxing…………..a damn video game is not that serious. Even professionally. There’s coaches for all “sports “ since gaming is being considered a sport. Doesn’t matter if you are being told what to do. You still have to EXECUTE it

[@_illtal]

Need to ban it. Takes too long to finish a bracke nowadays. Also on stages should be head to head and not side by side.

[@frankth3rd]

Seeing people equate physical 1v1 sports to simply having the awareness and fortitude to play a 3D fighting game is very concerning. That's why whenever hop on ranked mode, we see cookie cutter combos that came from KZbin instead of people fighting solely off their own prowess. I feel like you should have some sort of pride in being able to out think someone. If someone has to coach you, you have to ask yourself "why am I really doing this?"

[@c0wboys4life]

*I guess coaching in actual sports let alone combat sports is also cheating since people want to complain about coaching in a damn fighting game* 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@littlejamesdavis]

Coaching isn’t cheating. If people wanna compare esports to actual sports. Professional athletes have coaches and teams to help them perform better. Why should that be an exception for esports?

[@ash17602]

As a person who's switching from Smash to Tekken as their primary game for competition, The 1v1 competition has always been a test of skill but also a test of knowledge. In a roster of 90 characters and having to know what they all do and what to do when youre about to fight them is difficult, but thats a part of the competition and I think Tekken is no different. I think knowing that Reina's 112 string is launch punshible is something that the player should learn rather than be bullied by it for a game just for someone else to come up and tell them.

[@caliber009]

Coaching is a thing in professional sports, from entire teams of coaches in team sports, to cornermen in combat sports. I cant even imagine the braindead logic to equate advice with cheating.

[@SenpaiSketch-a-Lot]

When big money is on the line, things like coaching aren't cheating, it's just an advantage. Boxers have coaches to give them insight between rounds and not at the professional level. Playing in a major tournament at a high level is not like playing online, hell it's nothing like playing at your local tournament. Up until the Grand Finals, these guys are mentality exhausted from playing all-day, and they're not going to play at their best and losing means a loss in money and TWT points. Does there need to be a limit? Yes, just like combat sports have a time limit in the corner, so do these major tournaments, but saying it is outright cheating just sounds salty.

[@doriyahh]

These players be coaching other players during tournament

[@jewelsoflife2810]

In my opinion I look at coaching like how I look at teaching my Nefus about combos when we play. So for short in T8 I’ll whoop you and your coach

[@Bajancheese90]

*Nephews?

[@BigTexas88]

Then don’t call this a sport. Every sport has a coach 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@SeveredWorldLore]

I'm more annoyed at coaching than anything. Seeing some random who've most likely already loss in the tourney run on stage seems detrimental to both players.

[@YrcfYtdcg]

No cap nothing wrong with it

[@Spawnamvs]

Just because someone lost doesn't mean they don't have insight on what may be going on in a match they you may not be noticing in a high stress situation

[@BankaiiLife]

⁠@@Spawnamvsfacts even the best tekken player could lose a match that doesn’t mean they lost their skill or ability to read an opponent so that makes no sense saying someone who lost can’t coach

[@NemSumeragi]

You definitely one of them mfs that be back-seating streamers n shit

[@IWantToStayAtYourHouse]

I bet OP never never competed in their lives lol. Different perspective can be helpful, even from someone who lost in a tourney before you

[@C_H_U_]

Not cheating. Most people who get coached dont even win LOL. Just re0watched most reruns of TWT and i would say 90% of coached player still lost. Its irrelevant. People in the FGC like to cry just to cry. Case closed.

[@kristophermanning3430]

As someone who competes in smash and mains Kazuya in smash, I can unfortunately confirm that this community be on some bullshit about rulesets and whatnot. Two things that I think are good that happen in the community about rulesets is that conversations are started when things look like they need to be changed or fixed, and there is a level of community feedback that does play a role in what the final decision is. As far as midset coaching goes, I think I will have to agree with Speedkicks. I think being able to manage yourself and adapt to what your opponent is doing should be a part of your skillset as a competitor. Anything else kinda takes away from what the game itself measures.

[@BTP271]

Just want to know how many international titles Speedkicks has won btw. NA opinion is as scrub as their players are. People travel from around the world to USA spending a lot of money, they would do anything they can to do well but NA is NA 😂😂

[@zephune9506]

Pretty stupid…. fighters, football players you name it all receive coaching at any breaks. But in a fighting game it’s considered cheating?? Be fr

[@Randomdad.]

This is just people crying they lose after people make adjustments

[@BanditTools]

Yea an adjustment they made after someone told them. Foh.

[@daisydolI]

the fun, and almost the core of fighting games that we’ve all went through is adapting on the fly, seeing your opponents mistakes, reading them and understanding when to apply the solution with our character. That’s how we get better. What’s the point of training to do that for thousands of hours just to have some guy walk up on stage and do it for you?

[@Lucaribrix]

That’s like saying a mma fighter or boxer doesn’t need their coach after doing so many drills and training for months and year for a fight and doing all their analysis on their opponents last fights so they should be in that ring on their own and when it’s time to go in their corner the coach shouldn’t say nothing or even be there.

[@daisydolI]

@@Lucaribrix comparing fighting games where there’s frame data and answers to opponents moves with yours and combos to mma is the dumbest thing ever sorry. Completely incomparable.

[@daisydolI]

@@Lucaribrix Also, you’re proving my point..? us as players, we learn ourselves, we train by ourselves.. we do drills by ourselves.. that’s how we get better. Sure, when we get to a higher level and rank we may have a training partner, but MMA fighters have an entire team to help them reach to the top, nutrtionists, sparring partners, health experts and more. Also, all mma fighters have teams and coaches, when not all fighting game players do, obviously shown by the video where some players didn’t have a coach and had to wait there while their opponent was fed information about their play style, when they had nothing. It’s not fair.

[@Lucaribrix]

@@daisydolI both requires skill, both requires time and practice, both requires some sort of telegraphic read. And most importantly both are competitive. So idk what point of that you can’t grasp other than one being more subjective than the other. And I didn’t prove any point of yours

[@Lucaribrix]

@@daisydolI fighters also train by themselves and do drills by themselves 😂 just like how gamers search up or ask for tips or spar with friends in FG’s. So what point am I proving exactly of yours? 😂 both are competitive, both require skills, both require hand eye coordination and telegraph reading, both take time to craft and some can do it on the fly. Only difference is more SUBJECTIVE to coaching than the other

[@zi0dyne]

If coaching does become more of a thing in fighting games they need to save it for like top 16 or top 8. Not in round 1 pools, if you can't adapt in pools you don't need to be in top 8 anyway. Plus It takes up time, and instead of 2 people figuring each other's play/habits out, now they have coaches just telling people their opponents' habits and how to win. It cheapens the win and its sorta unfair for people who don't have a coach

[@NoWBrian]

imagine coaching in chess

[@plopap]

there is coaching in chess

[@zephune9506]

Coaching in chess is the equivalent of playing for them, thats not the case in gaming or sports

[@diablo_exp9296]

I say it is cheating why does someone who already had there games get to come bk up to whispers tips for someone else

[@zephune9506]

What about boxers, should coaches mouth be zipped during the break?

[@diablo_exp9296]

@@zephune9506 that's literally not the same things, someone at a fighting game tournament doesnt get a fight corner, you are your own coach you bring your bag , your controller, your water, they have had time to practice if they are losing to someone that's better than come bk next year, since you say boxing a actual physical sport 🙄 that's like one boxer having a coach and the other doesnt it's just him because there is real beef sometimes so if your someone that's gonna get up to help someone beat another person you dont like go sit down

[@zephune9506]

@@diablo_exp9296 “they dont get a fight corner?” What does that even mean, if boxing rulemakers decided boxers were not allowed a fight corner tomorrow they also would not have a fight corner??? Bit of a moot point. Exact same thing can be said about boxing, you bring your gloves, your water, and you have time to train in the gym? If you lose you come back next time. By your logic coaching shouldnt be allowed in boxing. As it follows the EXACT same principle Last point also doesnt make sense as both players are allowed coaches Being physical or non physical makes no difference.

[@diablo_exp9296]

@@zephune9506 ok so if your fighting someone in street fighter and someone come up to your opponent and tells them hey if you do this combo or these moves when he does this when it is not there match they are a spectator your just gonna sit there and be like sounds fair so we are comparing apples and oranges boxing is not the same as a fighting game competition theres is a training staff , coaching is not ment for the middle of a match in a one on one street fighter match when your not at home or at a fighter's club

[@zephune9506]

@@diablo_exp9296 then you have to do something different, the exact same applies to other sports, football, boxing, F1 racing you name it, coach sees that you are getting beaten by uppercut so he tells you do something different, manager sees that you keep running out of position, tells you to adjust?? I think you are fixated on the fact its a spectator, would a dedicated fight corner make it any different. Like i said same principle. Why do you think its so different to compare a boxer and fight game player. The only difference you can think of is that one is physical one is not.

[@abnormalskates544]

first let’s goo

[@ravelt101]

coaching should be ban to all kind of sport that are 1v1 or team vs team. why stop on fighting game.

[@hristoangelov9051]

Stop calling video game tournaments sport. Sport is for actual human activity. There is no sport in sitting on your ass and play a video game. And I do them both. Always hated the term esports.

[@LotusAsakura]

I really don’t give a shit one way or the other. It’s not that deep lol.

[@thegoatishere5079]

W vid as always my nigga