White Mage is Bad-- This is Why (Deep Analysis)

[@ColeEvyx]

There are significant problems between White Mage and Astrologian and I feel this pain point will only be amplified as we get future content like Futures Rewritten (FuRe, Furry Raid as I jokingly call it) and more savage criterion content added to FFXIV. White mage deserves these buffs, and Astrologian deserves the buffs I recommend too.

[@SubduedRadical]

ohmigosh!!! I made a WAY shorter post about this on r/ffxivdiscussion a week or so ago and people told me I was wrong and WHM is somewhere between fine to super powerful (because Cure 3 spam apparently is better than anything else any healer can do?), but man, over TWO HOURS?!?! Oh yeah, getting the popcorne for this one! AST is super powerful in healing AND has mitigation and utility on top of that, and it's frankly insane that WHM's current state is considered acceptable compared to that, no matter how "easy" people think it is.

[@hzi88]

It is acceptable since WHM can clear all content and does not lack behind any other healer. Like nothing in this game is really much behind anything since all is tightly balanced and operates in small margins of each other.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@hzi88 It is not, because WHM cannot clear all content. If you are in a PF with people that do not use mitigation, AST can clear and WHM cannot. WHM is not viable and unable to clear that content. And before you say "You can just get in another party", I have done more than a little content where MULTIPLE PF GROUPS in a row did not use mitigation. I got my clears by SWITCHING TO ANOTHER HEALER JOB (SCH or SGE or AST), which WERE viable. This tells me WHM needs this.

[@hzi88]

@@SubduedRadical That is not how balancing games works and is no argument for or against any role. If the group plays so bad it does not mitigate you have normally more problems and you should just leaving the group. Also this is a super rare scenario since even savage outside of week one does not need a whole lot of mitigation for most things. If people do not mitigate in an ultimate it does not matter if you are AST or WHM or whatever.

[@dallasmiddleton7694]

Thanks for helping me get to rank 4 in shared fates in Urqopacha. I also want to say "Cole Bless your heart"

[@MrRamo14]

I am puzzled about this game's balance philosophy sometimes. Because historically for some roles and still seems to be the case for the healer role the comparative strength of a job has been somewhat related to how difficult it was to play and/or how skilled you/your party are. Within the healer role this seems to be the case: AST's healing and DPS contributions take more thought/skill to fully utilize and are competitive/stronger than the healing/DPS contribution of WHM which does not require the same level of thought/skill. SCH's mitigative and DPS contributions take more thought/skill than SGE and are generally stronger than SGE. For other roles this philosophy doesn't seem as pronounced and we have situations like PCT vs BLM where PCT takes less thought/skill and is more flexible but provides the same or in many cases better DPS contribution and more utility. I don't want to necessarily adjust the healer role where it ends up in a situation like that and I still think the healers each have a specific thing they are better at than their direct competitor despite differences in overall strength or things have to be further hooggenized. But maybe that difference in overall strength isn't that important: WHM is still and has always been the most played healer despite being the "weaker" job and AST is currently the least played according to logs. I don't think any of the healers feel so poorly balanced that it feels like you're a detriment the party like PFing on a phys ranged or something.

[@tkhero7045]

*cries in MCH*

[@Xport9]

I love WHM due to how brainded it is to play. You have less buttons to press compared to the other healing jobs.

[@alexmaganda5827]

same sage feels the same both my fav healers

[@shiro12okami69]

Asylum down to 60sec, and add an 10% def effect,then u have a soil every minute,so basically half as much soils as SCH can have. WHM just rly needs more useful utility for the grp.

[@d0tsf0rlife]

Ever since AST was introduced, WHM is only good for prog or dungeons. Not sure why people think otherwise. Proactive healers are always better than reactive. SE needs to move away from the whole "pure healing" aspect of WHM and give it something to make it as desirable as a meta comp.

[@goodsherbear]

The way things are now, there's no reason to pick White Mage over an Ast. With the dps buffs and extra mitigation, Ast is THE healer to choose if you want a good synergy with the barrier healers in raids/trials or just in regular dungeons.

[@auro637]

WHM is brain dead for me, perfect for experts.

[@trentonsax7668]

Yall are actually so unattached from reality you think people dont care about playing games for fun.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@trentonsax7668 If you're playing WHM for fun, why would it be less fun to have a 1 min CD party mit button?

[@trentonsax7668]

@@SubduedRadical are you saying the only difference between the two jobs is a 1 min mit. Thats it? They function exactly the same outside of a one min it?

[@goodsherbear]

​@@trentonsax7668 No one said you can't play WHM for fun, but the class is in a bad state right now numbers and skill wise. I don't know why you're even commenting to me when what you said applies to the entire video!

[@pythiusplaysgames]

Just starting to dive into your video, but you bring up a really good point! Why DOES WHM have a 180 second cd on its Benediction. It certainly doesn't feel like a button that requires such a long cooldown now. And with it being at 180, WHM is the only healer to have 2 180 second cooldowns.

[@cameronkulper7245]

SCH has 2, Dissipation and Seraphism

[@pythiusplaysgames]

@@cameronkulper7245 I totally forgot about Dissipatio 😔

[@Emarrel]

All they'd have to do if add mitigation or a barrier to Plenary Indulgence so it has some sort of parallel to Collective Unconscious and I'd already regard WHM as less of a stinky knuckle dragging job that has surface level interaction with any encounter. It's hasn't even been "good for prog" for a very long time since I can't even remember the last time pure throughput was genuinely more useful over providing more regular mitigation - you know, the thing that actually prevents you from dying to AoEs.

[@JayDayX116]

You had a lot of fun running the numbers on this, didn't you?

[@nararanaraiii2022]

I stopped healing cuz of this, whm is my favorite job but 2 expansions straight with barely anything added to the kit is just enough for me

[@Jhaeros13]

Brother this was an amazing analysis. Me and my friends have also come to the conclusion that plenary should be buffed with mit, but I don't think we thought about the shielding for overhealing during temperance. I would love to have those, and the benison and aetheria shift buff. Talking about the lily system, I know it could be better with a lower cool down for tetra and benediction, but at the same time, having to make the choice of movement/aoe/single target is something that I enjoy. Now, about asylum, that extra healing from abilities is something fast doesn't have , and I wish you you had into consideration that even tho sometimes your cohealer doesn't let the hot cook, it basically means you are also helping your cohealer giving them bigger shields, or sometimes I used it like that I hahe Always loved ast and whm, but with dawntrail changes it was obvious for me that temperance and benison needs work, and your suggestions should sand I hope are implemented. Both of them are amazing healers, but the additional skills in DT made me feel that when got the short end of the stick.

[@SeraphineADC]

Thank you so much for all of this hard work. It's nice seeing the calculated potencies and such!

[@TheOwlverlord]

Thanks for the deep dive. My 2 cents: The design philosophie behind FFXIV healers in EW and especially in DT was/is highly flawed. All 4 healers feel underwhelming below savage gameplay wise. We are living in a time in which Healers are considered deadweight regarding loot priority. I think healers need a complete overhaul as their evolution has reached a dead end.

[@SubduedRadical]

Yeah, but what would that entail? And in a way that works with encounter design...

[@maxmuller6791]

You didn't mention that whm single target lilly fits the same use case as ast's ED. I do agree tho that whm is pretty much undesirable for the top percentiles

[@Druuna89X]

Because ED and AS are not equivalents. ED and Tetra are equivalents.

[@maxmuller6791]

@@Druuna89X them being on the gcd and dmg positive makes no difference. You'll be forced to burn access lilies anyway as to align misery.

[@SubduedRadical]

The problem is it ALSO has to fill the spot of Celestial Opposition and movement tool. It's sorta like SCH with Aetherflow/Energy Drain vs SGE having all that free healing and mitigation since they aren't trying to minimize Addersgall use to dump it on some more damage like SCH does, except the WHM/AST comparison is even worse somehow.

[@Druuna89X]

@@maxmuller6791 tf does that have to do with oGCD heals? Unless there's another spell that ED is short for besides Essential Dignity, they're 2 completely different spells.

[@PilaPlanet]

Crazy I just started FFXIV for the first time and started as white mage already at level 40 T.T now I dont know

[@MrLilven]

Don't overthink it, whm is still a fun and chill experience

[@coaster1235]

huh, now that i think of it, converting overhealing to a bit of shields on whm is not a bad idea at all! but i'd propose putting that effect on plenary indulgence instead, that way it'd be whm's 1min cd answer to collective unconscious, and temperance already has one shield effect locked behind it. speaking of plenary, i'd like its duration to be extended to 15 seconds, or if that sounds too strong to yoshi-p, make it additionally a 3-4 stack action and make the duration 15-30 sec (so that aoe heals benefit from the healing boost as long as the stacks last). given how square likes to put heavy damage into burst windows, ie when whm does not want to use any of the gcd lily heals, i often only really get one boosted aoe heal out of each plenary (and it falls off right as i was going to use a second aoe heal). ive seen suggestions to add a mit effect to plenary (edit: oh you mention this later too), but converting overheal into shields sounds more fun and more faithful to the whm experience, and i dont see how it'd be overpowered (especially how you have to get to overhealing to get the shields), so i like the idea!

[@tikar8982]

I'm still pretty new to the game and was thinking I would take the easy way out and play WHM...... I think I will put the work in and learn AST instead. I'm just now learning to tank with my AI. I'm so afraid of disappointing a group of humans lol there is so much to learn and I'll just need to practice. Thanks for the video!

[@Zoeila]

A lot of times ill pop neautral single rarfet shields if bith dos have multiple vuln stacks

[@mxdusza]

You sound schizo af but make some valid points. Actually watched the whole thing and it was for sure good content

[@losdosage5153]

Ast>All healers ..... saved you all time

[@newdecca]

I main all healers. WHM is probably the “worst” but because it’s the easiest to play I wouldn’t classify as “the worst” I would rank them like this: 1. SGE, 2. AST, 3. SCH, 4. WHM Favorite 1, 4, 2, 3 Most mobile 1, 3, 2, 4 Most difficult 2, 3, 1, 4

[@trentonsax7668]

how can you rate whm as the least mobile of all healers. make it make sense

[@SubduedRadical]

@@trentonsax7668 If it is using Lilies for actual healing, it can't use them for movement. So the only movement it has is Aetherial Shift. AST has Lightspeed for 15 seconds of free movement on the same CD, SCH has Ruin 2 for a damage loss but completely free movement, and SGE has Toxicon and Phlegma, as well as being able to GCD shield someone like the Tank to get a half-refund Toxicon out of the deal, and also has Icarus. WHM is the least mobile of the healers in the same way RDM is the least mobile of the Casters - while it has Duealcast to give it consistent movement options, the other Casters have a lot more free movement tools: Large portions of SMN's kit are instant casts, BLM has Aetherial Manipulation, Between the Lines, and two charges of Triplecast alongside Swiftcast which it can use for movement intensive parts of fights, and PCT has Smudge and quite a few instant casts like Hammer or Holy In White that it can use. WHM is the least mobile of all the healers in an overall sense outside of (a) PoM burst Glare IVs (3 GCDs) and (2) when its using Lilies (and if you use them for movement tools, you only have up to 3 and it takes a minute to restore all three if you do so and you've just gutted your free healing for the next 20-60 seconds).

[@trentonsax7668]

@@SubduedRadical I dont understand why you're giving every job the benefit of the doubt except whm. Your no different than Cole. "If it is using Lilies for actual healing, it can't use them for movement." You do understand you can heal and move with lilies at the same time correct? Thats a free gcd of movement every 20 seconds. But somehow you think Phlegma has more movement even tho your only getting 1 every 2 mins to use for movement if you save 2 for the 2min burst, and you only get a 40 second window to use it. As opposed to lilies where you get 6 every 2 mins and have up to a 60 second window to cast them. Then you get 3 free Toxicons a fight vs 3 Glare 4s every 2 min. So unless the fight is shorter than 2 mins and pom is on cd the entire fight how would Toxicon ever come out with more movement than Glare 4. Oh and then "being able to GCD shield someone like the Tank to get a half-refund Toxicon out of the deal" where whm can legit just use regen to do the same thing.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@trentonsax7668 And you're doing the opposite, giving WHM the benefit of every doubt while downplaying any advantage of any other healer or Job. You're worse than me or Cole are by your own metric. You can heal and move. But if you need to move and the party is at full health, but there's upcoming damage to heal, you can't use the same Lily to deal with both. This isn't rocket science. I didn't say Plegma ALONE gave more movement. That is such a bad faith "reubttal". You can get more Toxicons by shielding during downtime AND you can still use GCD shields for movement at the cost of half a Dosis since you can recoup half that cost with a Toxicon you get from the shield breaking. And SGE still has a dash on a shorter CD than WHM (45 sec for Icarus vs 60 sec for Shift) meaning in a 9 minute fight, you get 9 Shifts but get 12 Icarus. Regen (1) is not refunded AT ALL (not even half) and (2) cannot protect a target from damage greater than its current HP/max HP and (3) takes time to heal meaning if they need the healing immediately, it's not even a functional tool to address that problem. Like in the bee charge phase of M2S, on SGE, I can use shields on the Tank for some of my GCDs and get refunded for some of the damage. WHM can't do that. You get 3 Lilies and that's it, 100% Glare damage loss after that (I don't believe that lines up with 2 min CDs, so you can't use Glare IVs there). Attacking a strawman of an argument someone didn't even make while ignoring the weaknesses in your own argument does not make you a better person nor make your points stronger.

[@trentonsax7668]

@@SubduedRadical Toxicon isnt a "half refund" you're spending 2 gcds to do the same damage of 1 Dosis. The same way if you Regen and Glare you only get 1 gcd of damage. Icarus has a lower cd yes but it comes at the 15 sec cost of being targeted. The skills aren't equal in utility.

[@siinuxxblume5123]

It was not hard healing as whm this tier and it was also easy doing "good" damage. Astro does slightly more damage overall, which you could fix with potencies, but also astro got a huge buff cause the 2 new classes decided its time to make 2 min more important than ever. With this savage tier there is nothing that astro can solve that whm cant solve with proper party Mit, which is just good play from you party. There are some situations where i think Whm can salvage mechanical mistakes from your team where i think astro would struggle a lot (currently have weapon diff in favor of whm) like missing 3 towers on m3s cause one of your idiots walls it. Whm can throw down liturgy and PI + afleatus during knockbacks and its really hard keep up with that when playing astro.

[@SubduedRadical]

Here's the thing: AST can solve it WITHOUT good party Mit. And if you have good party Mit and an AST, AST can make it more comfy/safe. There's no case where "Well, if you have a static of high end players..." is a good counter argument. Even if you DO have that, AST is still better. That's like saying "Sure, you can have a WHM that spams Medica if the rest of your party is great". I mean...yeah...but why do that if you could just have a great party and a WHM that DIDN'T just spam Medica? If your great party with a WHM is good, your great party with an AST would be even better, wouldn't it? Why would you NOT want the "even better" option?

[@siinuxxblume5123]

For this tier specifically after doing it with both: There is no advantage for whm on M1S - bloody scrats oneshots your squishies and astro prevents it sometimes. M2S has rotten hearts first cast where astro mit can help to keep people alive and there is no reason to bring whm. On M3s Whm is a lot better, if people mess up you either get dots/poison or brutal impact following and cure 3 is very useful in some of those cases and there is nothing where you need the mit. Its useless if you know what you are doing on whm. M4s it is very similar. all the "oneshot" hits you can use temperance for and the rest is mostly trickle damage. I didnt have problems keeping my tank alive, i never felt like i needed the mit for people to survive. So i dont understand where this "mit makes it more smooth" is coming from. If Astro was dealing 15k dps and Whm was dealing 18k then everyone would say Astro needs a buff, cause there is no reason to play it.. Thats it. Healing for either was a non issue if you have 1 tank using mits on bloody scratch/rotten heart and first 2 raidwides in m4s.

[@karmaspcs]

whitemage is 5% stronger in dps than astro. playing both in savage and my whitemage is 2 gearscore lvl lower then my astro and does a ton more dmg.

[@SubduedRadical]

Are you including the damage AST's party buffs do? That's why the log average for AST is so much higher. It counts the party damage it is giving out via buffs.

[@Kev96H]

quite frankly, I think the question should be "is white mage good enough" and not "how does whm compare to ast". Analysis for the sake of analysis is pointless. Do you even have a problem to solve here? I don't think a single person has complained that WHM is not strong enough to handle all content.

[@Graymen99]

I did all of last tier and this tier as white mage and I vastly prefer it to any other healer, numbers be dammed. WHM just feels better to play.

[@SubduedRadical]

No, that's the question you want to shift to instead. Everything is "good enough", the problem is if "good enough" is so subpar that anything else is always a better choice, which is what we're close to here. The only time WHM is a better choice is if you need mega burst AOE healing almost all the time to keep your party alive but they somehow aren't making mistakes that outright kill them, only mistakes that cause them to lose 99% of their health over and over multiple times per minute. In short, almost never a thing to the point of NEVER being a thing. In pretty much every other case, WHM is an outright worse option than anything other than duplicate SCH/SCH or SGE/SGE. And even there, the worse duplicate comp is WHM/WHM!

[@helengagliardi7224]

people have been complaining about white mage being kinda shitty compared to other healers since before there were three healers in the game lol it's a persistent issue

[@Stigmaphobia777]

@@SubduedRadical Alright, but to fix this you have three options. A. Give WHM the advantages AST has. B. Nerf AST's advantages down to WHM. C. Make content that caters more to WHM's kit. C is the better answer, imo. A and B make WHM and AST more similar, and that's boring. C could possibly happen (like how this tier has fights that actually cater to physical mitigation), but who knows how common it'd be even if it did. Alternatively, you could just accept that a job will likely always be suboptimal within a role in a game that has 20+ jobs to balance, and that 99.5% of the raid community doesn't optimize to the extent that the differences are worth losing sleep over.

[@Kev96H]

@stigmaphobia777 100% agree like, frankly, if you care that much about opti than yeah go play the stronger more complex classes. But don't come around complaining about a problem that doesn't need solving. If whm couldn't clear all content well then that's a different question. All things DO NOT need to be created perfectly equal. Ast is much more difficult to opti than Whm and you should be rewarded for being able to play it at that level