Woke Racism with John McWhorter [S2 Ep.40]

Welcome to another episode of conversations with Coleman.
My guest today needs no introduction. Joining me in today's episode is John McWhorter. John has a new book called "Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America". This is an excellent book and I highly recommend you to read it. In this episode, we talk about what "wokeness" is, as John defines it, and whether the woke can be persuaded. We also talk about the progress America has made on race, the extent to which actual racism is still a problem, Robin DiAngelo and White Fragility. And finally, we go to talk about what a real program of uplift would look like for Black America.
I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
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[@jtstevenson81]

John McWhorter is a national treasure. He is a lighthouse of sanity in the middle of an ocean of people who have lost their minds.

[@nicholassmith3719]

He is

[@bakerbrown6]

Agreed.

[@jtstevenson81]

@Anya WaleThat's probably because you're a leftist and a BLM supporter and the truth offends you.

[@casebeth]

Absolutely

[@serpentines6356]

Good analogy. Will use it when needed.

[@LP-fr8zc]

I am a British white fella who likes all good people I meet, notwithstanding their race or class. This video reinforced that I am right and happy to do so. Thank you gentlemen.

[@tristancoffin]

Bro virtue signal some more, it turns peeps on

[@MorningtonCrescent]

At the risk of using a lazy cultural expression: "me too"! This race and victimhood lens is also becoming far too prevalent here in the UK.

[@franmeyers9087]

As a recent teacher of literacy skills to mainly adult immigrant women, many of whom had no literacy skills in any language, I set up a phonics-based reading program that worked with all my students, at different paces, but by they all developed reading and writing skills in a relatively short time. Some of them were older and highly motivated to learn. I applaud John McWhorter for advocating a phonic-based approach to teaching reading to young children. Yet, some years ago, phonics was taken out of reading programs in public schools and for the 12 years it was completely removed from the public schools, tremendous damage was done to the kids in public schools. It's been put back, but to my understanding, it's not taught as much as it used to be. The system is failing the kids.

[@bushmg1061]

We’ve cut a lot out basic English stuff out of school, most of it unimportant to most kids but vital to many others, like phonics. Also English noun declensions, verb participles, and other grammar rules are now taught “implicitly”

[@Jopacob]

Great illumination, from a parents point of view I was basically thrown off by the specific emphasis of not knowing the prescribed teaching method , which was further obfuscated by word salad and the suggestion I could my children’s education by reading to them “in the incorrect way”

[@franmeyers9087]

@TASHHHH Have you taken ESL Classes with the Department of Education Office of Adult Education? I taught in that program until recently. I used to teach literacy skills to a class of mainly African women students, some of whom had no previous schooling in their countries of origin. Curious where you went to school. Perhaps we crossed paths.

[@serpentines6356]

​@@Jopacob Oh, gadz. Phonics all the way, and just have fun reading to your kids. Many teachers have gone screwball nuts along with other people.

[@Trishpage312]

Such a wonderful conversation Coleman. I loved hearing the story of your grandparents. My grandparents on my mother's side were from Tupelo Mississippi. Dirt poor Irish. My mother and her 12 siblings were born at home. My grandmother whom I adored and I knew I was her favorite out of 56 grand children... or I at least that's what I felt, which was everything to me. When I was a child living in Kenosha Wisconsin in a trailer park, Maybe about 7 or so, one of my aunts came by and something was said and I remember hearing the N word. My grandmother lost her shit. She was livid! "That word is NEVER to be used in this house! If you want to talk like that get out!" This is a white women from Mississippi. She picked cotton and had 13 children with no indoor plumbing and she was pissed about it. I made a conscious effort to judge people by how they acted and treated people then the color of their shin. I never forgot that. I think she had an artist soul, but her time was what it was. I saw in my minds eye you telling that story about your grandparents. Grandparents are the best. God Bless your grandparents and mine. I love you Fanny (Mason) McClarty. Nov 1906-1988 Thank you for loving me.

[@andrew7008]

A very moving comment, thanks for sharing Trish!

[@HiNi.]

Thank you for sharing, very lovely.

[@adrianl7147]

Great story

[@wescolumbus621]

Touching and teaching comment, Trish: well-informed-minds, wide-perspectives, warm-hearts, color-blindness shall overcome today's regressive, needless and dangerous racial agitation.

[@ASHERUISE]

That's all very lovely, but more importantly did they know what was causing it?

[@syourke3]

It’s pointless to argue with fanatic ideologies. We just have to fight them, we cannot dissuade them. These two gentlemen are doing us all a great service. Much respect.

[@kristinekieswer7058]

You're wrong about one thing. We CAN see the light. I spent the pandemic listening to opinions from this camp (ones I rarely came across in my usual informational circles) and have stepped back from the far left cliff. I question everything now, and always seek out opposing viewpoints before making up my mind (then continue to keep it open). Really appreciate the thoughtful, measured, research-backed approach you take to emotion-fueled topics.

[@TheJustina102085]

Good for you! My moment occurred around 2016 following some people like Sam Harris.. I try to think much more critically now and quite frankly it’s like finding the secret to life! Haha

[@ClearerThanMud]

Wow, what a powerful story @17:54. I'm struck by 1) the introspection required by the young John McWhorter to conclude that he didn't like what he had done, and 2) the honesty required for the older John McWhorter to share that with us. Love listening to these guys chat.

[@davidmerfeld1779]

McWhorter's book is indeed excellent. It was hard to put down, and I may have read it in two sessions.

[@thomasmills3934]

I got thru it in audiobook form on one days roadtrip home from thxgiving.

[@isoutoforbit]

@The Diagnosis The Solution I also listened to the audiobook and I'm very glad I did, there's something about Mcwhorter's voice and delivery that is irresistible.

[@FiremarshalM1]

No concerns that he disengages from conversations with woke adherents? I dislike abandoning people...even narrow framed, misinformed, ill-informed, intolerant ones.

[@FiremarshalM1]

@Andy Mann you seem lonely.

[@FiremarshalM1]

@Andy Mann said the midwit with an ideological bent toward equity instead of equality? lol 😂

[@amarissimus29]

I think maybe before paying for college for everyone we might want to find out how to keep the kids from dropping out in middle school first. Thank you both for consistent rational dialogue in the face of a howling abyss.

[@RamseyRimkeit]

How about both? Can we chew gum and walk at the same time?

[@MrSpying247]

right now the higher education functions as ideological indoctrination centers attempting to radicalize the youth and make every college grad an activist no matter what the do, then those kids go on to radicalize the companies then end up working in and for after graduation.

[@poguelet]

Coleman Hughes is a great and provocative intellectual! He show is always stimulating! As a lifelong hispanic liberal I think his show is so needed. To me the WOKE agenda is as distructive as the MAGA agenda. Both are destroying this country! Professor McWhorter is so right on!

[@basedcentrist3056]

I once went on a date with a black girl, this was probably 2017ish just after trump had come into power. At the time, i was aware of the SJW craze, but i wasn’t aware of how deep it really went. The date went quite well until she brought up politics. She went on a bit of a screed about how racist the right wing is and our country donald trump etc. I asked if she ever read any right leaning sources, she said no. I told her that her attitude of generalising the other side as racists is the exact same attitude she thinks they have about race. She flipped out. I said I wasn’t a fan of trump, ut I don’t think he’s the boogeyman people made him out to be, she told me “you can only say that because of your white privilege”. I got angry then. Bare in mind, i had found out through this date that this girls parents are barristers, high paid lawyers. So she’s upper class (showed in her accent as well). She was quitting a law degree to do photography. An extremely privileged thing to do imo. And i told her so. I asked her when she had ever been held back by her race, she had nothing to say, just squirming. I asked her when she’d ever faced racism. She told me some kids in school called her the nword once. She was now 25 and still holding onto that. I laughed in her face, we all face bullying in school. Its not fair, but you get over it. I could tell this girl had a lot of white friends who blow smoke up her arse, and that she had adopted that personality that you two mentioned, of appropriating the struggles of black ancestors or people in general while actually experiencing none of it. And she had never been called on it or challenged. She banked on white ignorance to race in order to do that. Unfortunately I’m extremely well read on race and could spot her bullshit a mile away. Safe to say we never had a second date haha

[@basedcentrist3056]

@Tracchofyre hahaha I doubt it, she struck me as the type that wants a simp to use and abuse cause her ego was way too inflated. But an extra tidbit, the next day I tried to apologize (mainly because I wanted to see if we could have something like a civil conversation) she sent me several articles from BuzzFeed and MTV to read to "educate" me on race. I'm not kidding. I told her in no uncertain terms that if she's getting her info on race from MTV and BuzzFeed that she was basically a fool haha. Tbh I think I was actually a lot harsher than that 🤣 I was just so insulted that anybody would use them as a source when talking about something so serious. Blew me away

[@chimyshark]

great story. she is part of the cult, there is no hope for them.

[@IceQeen1011]

LOL Similar story. I had a black friend whose dad made a ton of money as an exec, he even had his own security team and private jet. yet she used to complain about being broke and disenfranchised. By her own admission the cops used to stop her car for traffic violations, see her zipcode and let her go. Why play this victim card when it's not needed? Very disrespectful to people who are struggling and to people who FOUGHT their way up for her to speak like this

[@basedcentrist3056]

@@IceQeen1011 yeah it's pretty disgraceful tbh

[@IceQeen1011]

@@basedcentrist3056 And so disingenuous to people who really struggle. Because the way she spoke, she wanted me to know that she was NOT from a ghetto. I was really appalled. I have friends who grew up in extremely violent parts of the city and it made them no less human or worthy of resepct. >

[@ladymortis]

John is exceptional. Thank you for the fantastic conversation!

[@BombasticBayo]

I have been vibing with Mr. McWhorter for the last two weeks. This is the first time I ever felt like there was a black person that shared the same views with me on issues affecting our community. To hell with preaching about racism, let’s start looking at practical ways that we as a community or black individuals can better our lives. I put this KZbin video on while I was driving from work; I like doing that because it’s something about listening while driving that makes everything ten times more interesting. As I was listening, I came to a sad realization; even people from a given community who firmly believe that they do not hold biases toward that community actually do hold biases towards that community. I respect Mr. McWhorter, but I can’t agree that this new wave of anti-racism is a religion. Why? Because it’s extreme and truthfully anyone can be reached when we too are respectful, open to others ideas, and real. I can’t begin to express how disdainful it is for another human to deny another human their own personalized experience. “I’m black and I’ve never had that happened to me,” is a bogus argument that I hope Mr. McWhorter really thinks more about before saying again. Here’s an example of what I mean… I lived in South Korea, and I can’t tell you how many non-Whites (and sometimes white people [here and there]) have told me about (a) racist encounter(s)that they’ve experienced. Though, I have never experienced a single racist act aimed toward me in South Korea - in my entire three years of living there - who am I to say that they are exaggerating? The reason why we cannot convince people to expand their views is because we sit like Coleman and McWhorter and in a way become Gods. We think we are the authors of how other people ought to feel because we have everything figured out. White, black, Asian, Latino, doesn’t matter - - are all people who, no matter how realistic or pragmatic, are driven by emotion. We cannot and should not ever deny a people or a person their right to feeling a certain way. I’m sure a therapist doesn’t tell someone seeking help that, but rather they explore ways that help the individual figure out why they feel that way. Someone who feels like they may be a victim may as well be a victim in their own right. I believe that every African taken into slavery starting in 1444, and henceforth after, were victims of racism. Their offspring and generations down the line were also made victims and continued to be victims through the civil rights movement and even after as those civil rights activists had children and those children grew up and had children their children are also victims because racism never ended. No matter what scale you use to measure the amount of racism in a society, it exists and peoples psyches can be influenced every time even the slightest instance of racism/trauma is experienced. The goal is getting people to say, “Hey, regardless of how much of my life is dictated by racism, racism does not and will not define me nor prohibit me from achieving success.” I still stand with McWhorter. He is on to something and I hope the black community will pivot and listen to his ideas. But, I will say this; if you feel marginalized and their is good history supporting marginalization and disenfranchisement of your community, you have every right to feel upset. We know that marginalized people don’t just wake up and live in the same reality as someone who had not gone through their situation. However, you are capable of doing anything you want. No matter the troubles, America is the greatest country because whatever you want, if you work hard enough for it, you can achieve. Some get their faster, but you’re running your own race and it doesn’t matter how long it takes you to get to the finish line you’ll get there. Just keep on pushing. And yes, it is sometimes harder for little black boys and black girls to get to where they need to be (for a multitude of reasons, and sometimes those reasons are potentially linked to racism) but that can’t stop you and we won’t let it either.

[@aidenmalecky7928]

I also did a double-take when McWhorter said because he hadn't experienced things as a black person that means everyone else's experiences must be made-up or exaggerated. That simply sounds like he's saying he knows other peoples' experiences better than they do, and it comes across as incredibly arrogant to me. I actually like and respect McWhorter, but people tend to put him on this pedestal as the only voice of reason left when he's just a human being who is just as capable of mistakes as the rest of us. I'm white, so what the hell do I know about being black. I just listen to various perspectives to try and glean the truth. Hell, even Trump-supporting Tim Scott has said he's had "driving while black" experiences. I read the book The Black and the Blue by a black cop to try and get both perspectives and I wonder what McWhorter would think of that book because the author details various examples of cops pulling over well-dressed, professional black dudes in expensive cars on a regular basis. I'd have to be wilfully obtuse to say there is no pattern at this point. So yes, I respect McWhorter, but he's just one guy with a singular experience whereas the majority say something different, and I'm not going to simply dismiss every one else's experiences because McWhorter's are different.

[@virgilius7036]

Slavery don't start in 1444, you are blacklisting Arab slavery which is much older !

[@BombasticBayo]

@@virgilius7036 Not black-listing, my comment is in reference to the transatlantic slave trade. I know a bit about Arab slavery (and I know that they didn’t only enslave African people), as well as African slavery (where other Africans enslaved Africans), and albeit all being wrong, European/slavery was a much different beast.

[@caliconservative20]

These days calling someone a racist is an excuse to stop the conversation. It's a cowardly way out of a conversation. It's a obstacle to self-awareness.

[@HelenaBlack80]

I agree with this. I recently called someone out for being quite offensively antisemitic (comments bordering on Holocaust denial) and I was told I was being racist for doing this and called out for my ‘micro-aggressions’ for saying her views were formed because she’s never left her street let alone her country, she also accused me of appropriating black culture because I was apparently using AAVE (I’m from the UK) it was all intended to stop me from highlighting her AS and racism which she didn’t seem to care about at all, it was quite horrible.

[@HelenaBlack80]

@Andy Mann There are no Jewish people who deny the Holocaust, don’t be so utterly ridiculous! And how distasteful of you to say there in order to prove some arbitrary point that a woman you didn’t even speak to wasn’t being antisemitic. The only thing about the Holocaust that we should be studying is what led one group of human beings could treat another so brutally in order that we never repeat it.

[@HelenaBlack80]

@Andy Mann I’d absolutely relish an explanation on how I demeaned someone who was attempting to deny the horrific experiences of the Jewish people!? I called her out on her antisemitism and I was right to do it, I’d do the same for anyone who attempted to deny and downplay the NA slave trade. And you can’t refute fact regardless of what you might think. Now please take your white supremacist apologising somewhere else.

[@HelenaBlack80]

@Andy Mann None of that has anything to do with antisemitism and racism. If you are denying that the Holocaust occurred you’re repeating antisemitic, white supremacist tropes. You say you’re not a WS but if it’s walks like a duck…….

[@HelenaBlack80]

@Andy Mann having white skin and identifying as white in 2022 is different from the racial classification given to Jews by the Nzi’s, in the 30’s and 40’s, they were regarded as an inferior race and certainly not white in the Aryan sense of the word, religion had nothing to do with it as even atheists and Jews who’d converted to other religions were killed. Not to mention that Judaism is an ethnio-religion. I’m not an authority because this is recorded history written and recorded by people who lived it, no some American interpretation of racial division.

[@panushjo]

"I knew the woman wasn't a bigot for reasons I won't share" Someone tapped that

[@hendrixisgod777]

I love the way he said that. The cunning linguist. It’s like, what other possible reason could there be for him to not want to share it whilst simultaneously bringing it up? The more I find out about John, the more I find him to be a very interesting character.

[@papie5151]

I'm glad McWhorter has this book out. I've commented on many of these shows that feature discussions on Racism. My issue has always been when do these media figures get to solutions for these problems rather than intellectualizing the problem and talking to no end. Time for solutions!

[@sportscarman5]

The thing is, with traditional media dying a slow death there're becoming more desperate for people to watch them. And the best way to generate views and clicks it's to say more and more outrageous stuff, not come up with sane solutions.

[@therealmccoyruf]

He offers solutions in the book

[@sportscarman5]

@@therealmccoyruf oh absolutely he does. But the media figures don't, and I think that was the point of the comment.

[@billsimms2511]

Haha you will never hear the media personalities talking about possible solutions to racism.

[@sportscarman5]

@@billsimms2511 hell no, of course you won't lol

[@oliverastankovic7009]

This is a question to Coleman. How would you feel if you were told by your Professor just to listen instead of giving you an opportunity to talk and explain your position? I have been silenced because I am white. This type of injustice I experienced as a PHD student who came from Europe. Thank you for this wonderful interview with Dr. John McWhorter. He is the best example to follow ❤

[@silmaril8989]

Very interesting and necessary interview! Personally I also see this "woke religiousness" in LGBT+ spaces, with a suspension of disbelief and being called a heretic if you dare to question anthing or have a different opinion. Think it's making many that are part of that group, like me, feel quite alienated and I also think it will harm LGBT+ people in the long run which... sucks.

[@godzillamegatron3590]

It depends on how you ask the questions. Are you asking questions out of curiosity or are you asking questions to demean a group of people?

[@silmaril8989]

@@godzillamegatron3590 My question would then be "what is demeaning a group of people"? It seems anything now can be framed that way, kind of like calling anything racist and ending up loosing the meaning of what being racist really means (and loosing the focus on racism that does still exist). I was referring to situations where the intent isn't to hate on anyone but you're still called a bigot, often by your own "group", for not agreeing on every detail or trying to approach a topic from a different angle because you think that might work better or saying that you see an issue with something (like how self-id imo allows people to adopt a real identity other people have, but with the intent to abuse others)

[@amorfati4927]

@@silmaril8989 Well this all goes into critical theory as a whole so you would be correct. People like James Lindsay on New Discourses do a great job of actually going through the literatures (which some of them are hundreds of years old) and breaking it down so people can understand it (also if people just plain don’t have time to go through it themselves). The simplest way to explain it (and this is extremely dumbed down and only part) is to divide and conquer. Take something that has a degree of truth (“minority” in comparison to that society as a whole) and stretch that as far as you can go to turn everyone against each other so that they have warriors SJW even (that is actually not even a new term by a long shot, it is very old) and the puppet masters can do what they want behind the scenes. That includes children because they are most definitely grooming your children in many or most public schools around the nation. A big part of it is just like the cultural revolution and turning the children against the parent. Also, the taking away of the innocents of the child (they call it queering) makes it so all bets are off and they are treated as adults in every way. All this stuff is quite literally in their literature and they don’t even hide it. There are current college professors that has papers and dissertations on doing these things or plans on how to do these things.

[@TCH534]

@@silmaril8989 that still goes back to the intent of your question. Or a better way to phrase it is… are you willing to listen and are you open to being convinced? If you’re not, why ask the question?

[@silmaril8989]

@@amorfati4927 Yes, think the over-arching thing is critical theory. Either applied to race or gender (and probably also other topics). Lindsay is really good at explaining, I agree. Have listened to some interviews/videos. With regards to "queering" children, imo a lot of these... practises take an idea many people would support, like I would've loved to know about "there're other things besides being heterosexual and it's fine to be like that", but they basically over-do it and go into a bad direction. Think it's the previous podcast about trans kids where the guest called 3-5 yo kids "young people", which to me sounds like pretending they're older and more mature than you know... kids. Which can veeery easily be misused. Just as an example

[@kricachula7546]

😂😂 I love how John was like "I just went on and on and on about it..." lol. How great to be able to laugh at yourself, and recognize your own growth from the past.

[@IceQeen1011]

These are the convos we should be having rather than rabbid ideologies espoused and run by activists posing as academics.

[@billmorrison9068]

Or activists posing as journalists..

[@Mark-hc8ek]

John once said it's white people who need to start blowing the whistle on woke. He's in fact motivated me to do so. I'm gay so I have some similar experiences with leftist condescension.

[@BighornShaver]

I thank God for your ability to cut through the wokeness with clarity, objectivity and sanity. This year my wife and I celebrate 40 years of interracial marriage. Our beautiful mixed heritage daughter is 29. I believe the continued insistence on using the artificial binary racial definitions of Black and White is at the heart of the matter.

[@murderoustendencies]

I feel like if we combined Coleman with Ben Shapiro we would end up with someone who speaks at a normal pace. This is said with love HAHA

[@justforviewing2]

I am grateful to have the pleasure of being exposed to both of your works via KZbin/web, and books- your discussions are intellectually satisfying and honest! Please keep having these conversations :)

[@Renwa82]

Coleman Hughes plus John McWhorter makes for a legendary conversation

[@timrhatley]

My point being, that the argument of getting pulled by police and having to get out of the car and go through several walk the line, touch your nose, etc. tests to prove I wasn't drunk or on drugs has so much more factors than race. (like type of car, late at night) I was always very polite, but they still ran me through the obstacles before letting me go. Until I got my pickup truck. Thank you Coleman and John for all your hard work and sensible voices!

[@jackwittenbrink1354]

American discourse is in desperate need of these two voices. We’re luckier to have them when we realize. Watching this in the Ninth Ward in New Orleans, and having to pause for sirens to pass on my street also. Thank you, gentlemen, for everything you do.

[@brianjoyce9040]

Can’t miss with a Coleman/McWorter conversation

[@anyakirby2014]

Got the book already. Loving it, my second book by John, will get the others too. Far too many parallels with the way the Russians view themselves in the world, as ‘ eternal victims of the West’ which excites me as a Russian immigrant living in UK.

[@samenrose]

Ooh interesting, I’ve never heard this about Russians viewpoint. Do you know of any resources or literature for me to learn more about this?

[@bogi18]

To be fair, I think that mindset is very prevalent pretty much everywhere in Eastern Europe (I'm from the region) , being the victim and eternally dwelling on historical wounds. It's eerily familiar.

[@samenrose]

@@bogi18 interesting

[@anyakirby2014]

@@samenrose the first book that comes to mind is ‘Eternal Russia’ by Jonathan Steel. However, if you meet any Russian immigrant in your country, ask him/her if they support Putin in war with Ukraine. More than 50% chance they’ll say yes🥲. Than ask them why, what Ukraine did wrong, in their opinion, they’ll provide you with a passionate illustration of that view, “how unfair the West is being to Russia and Putin”, and how it “made an anti-Russian puppet of Ukraine”.

[@tulip5210]

I never thought of it that way! That makes a lot of sense

[@polarbear4612]

It’s great to see this kind of honest intellectual discussion. As Mcworter pointed out, you’re going to be labeled as racist no matter what so might as well just take the bull by the horns and get on with it. Great talk.

[@sbaumgartner9848]

Coleman, I've heard about you before from listening to Glenn L and Joh; this is the first time I've listened to your KZbin channel and I really like your communication style / calming vibrational level. I think you are the total package and have a great future ahead of you. It's great and essential to see people from a younger generation commit to reducing the tension of race and class in the USA (and as a by product in other western countries like here in Canada. It's disappointing to see where statues and monuments of major historical figures in the USA be defaced and torn down, and then see the same ignorant ripple effect quickly taking place in other western countries. Our MSM and politicans spend no time in reflecting how to best respond.) I'm trying to read and listen to what Ijeoma Oluo has to say. I find it sooo difficult to get through even one page at a time of "So you want to talk about race." I feel so sorry for her 24x7 anger and rage she carries inside of her.

[@debratampone]

Well done gentleman! THANK YOU! Your viewpoints are the reason I have been able to kept my sanity. I am an educator in a public school where I have witnessed the standards of education give way to passing students based on equity as well as the problem of not handling the core reasons for student susspension rates. I am interested in your views on how to handle the drugs that are killing the youth in our communities.

[@BTODNG]

McWhorter has the super power of making Coleman smile.

[@mounteverestoftheobvious1182]

Glenn Loury once called my writing “brilliant.” And when he opened my site last year, he was “blown away” and “signed up.” But when I challenged him on his hero, suddenly he wasn’t so keen on the truth. Based on the claims in this community: You would consider that information on the merits - in a calm, cool, and collected manner. That means you don’t defend before you consider. It means you don’t fuss over tone and website style to deflect from the argument. It means you don't sling snippets of certitude and childish insults for a fix - you show up and act your age. And just for kicks, try showing a modicum of courtesy for once - listening and learning for a change. And if you really wanna go for the gold, come with the willingness to be wrong. You'd be amazed by what you can see with such courage. Glenn said that they had no argument against his “Rebuttal to Brown University’s letter on racism in the United States.” Neither do you on your “National Treasure.” Like Loury, you wanna confine Sowell’s record to a box of beliefs that suit you, and ignore anything that doesn’t. So the rules of argument you espouse on a daily basis don’t apply to you . . . A lot of that goin’ around: onevoicebecametwo.life/2021/12/07/behold-the-legacy-of-your-beloved-sowell-part-i/

[@tbhistoryjunkie]

Coleman, you're young and you give me hope. Thanks for this wonderful convo with Dr. McWhorter. As someone else said here, he IS a national treasure. A voice of reason and true compassion in what feels like ridiculous darkness right now. If the woke anti-racists really did care about helping people as much as they seem to care about their own egos, they'd read John's book with an open mind and heart and get down to the business of actual social change for the better.

[@mattbabb.]

Thanks for mentioning that part of DiAngelo’s book. Full disclosure: I think she is right about white people being fragile when it comes to race. I noticed this as a kid. White people are genuinely nervous about being called racist, and or even having it implied in their direction. And they need to get over it and realize that it’s gonna happen (just like John said). Grow a backbone, and simply fail to take their accusation seriously or refute it calmly and carry on. It’s not the hill to die on. However, when DiAngelo says that white people’s tears are somehow emotional manipulation designed (consciously or not) to reassert power over black people, it genuinely makes me sad. That level of suspicion, paranoia, and unfalsifiable demonization of someone’s expression of emotional overwhelm is cruel, a real kick while someone is down. Only a truly scary person could interpret someone’s tears as a weapon, not in a particular case, but as a rule. I hope I run into her one day and can ask her about this

[@flutebasket4294]

Hang around me and mine, we don't fear being called racists. However, we would be considered the biggest racists of all by the establishment for our fearlessness, and those very real, very threatening social pressures are what the normies are responding to

[@billsimms2511]

I don’t know why people fear getting called racist anymore as the word has completely lost all its meaning

[@flutebasket4294]

@@billsimms2511 Because one can be legitimately destroyed. I don't fear the accusation because I have nothing to lose, but most people have everything on the line

[@saracorbin1152]

What a blanket stereotype, and somewhat sexist as applied to "white women's tears". I'm a white woman and I can honestly say I haven't used tears to get my way since age 5 or so. People with personality disorders do so in adulthood.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

I think the contradiction in that is saying that people should care about racism, and think it a terrible evil, and at the same time, be tough and not feel offended if they're called racist - because to do so is evidence that they're racist. People feeling offended (genuinely, not just making a show of it) by being called racist shows at the very least that they've internalised very deeply the idea that racism is a pretty awful thing. Then you can argue about what is or is not appropriate as "race etiquette" so to speak, but at the very least someone who cares about being called racist is someone who's with you on the core ideas. It's if someone doesn't give a fuck that you should be worried, because obviously they don't think being racist is such a bad thing.

[@a.klarkeheinecke2385]

I am becoming a huge fan of Coleman Hughes, after admiring John McWhorter for years. It was X reports of Hughes' calm response to provocation on "The View" that first drew me. I so admire his presence of mind, thoughtfulness, non-reactivity, curiosity, intellect. I have also admired Thomas Sowell for years, for many reasons, including interest in the issue of relative group IQ. Hughes and McWhorter are increasing my vision on this topic. I am one of the persuadable people. Outstanding. Exciting to see this level of reason and humanity in the youngest generation (I like Amala Ekpunobi, too).

[@gingerjones830]

First I’ve heard of someone specifically call for a phonics based approach to teaching reading! It’s so true. That is exactly what the research says. I’m a reading specialist.

[@karenaenlle8107]

Thank You Coleman!!!! Great conversation! The voice of reason shall prevail! We don’t need new religions, we know how those end when they get too much power……the inquisition was no picnic.

[@tylerwells703]

I have ordered Mr. McWhorter's book and eagerly anticipate its arrival. I agree with all of Mr. Hughes' and Mr. McWhorter's assessments of the popularity of "woke", but I believe that there is another. I believe that there are a number of, potentially, well-meaning white people who genuinely want to improve the situation in the predominantly black inner-cities, but without getting their hands dirty, or to come into direct contact with the denizens of the inner-city. It is very easy to decry racism, and especially to accuse your political opponents of it, but very difficult to be a foster parent, to be a tutor, to coach a team or to be a Big Sister or Big Brother. Wokeism gives them an easy out, a way to pretend to do something while actually doing nothing. Ms. D’Angelo, especially preaches that white people shouldn’t be involved in the lives of the more pigmentationally advantaged as that would be paternalistic and, therefore, racist.

[@theDonRua]

May the seeds of intellectual thought, integrity, rational discussion, and openness spread from these two men to many others. These are voices that need our $ support, sharing on our personal channels, etc. I don't always agree with Coleman, but I respect him greatly. I TRUST him, and in a way that I feel confident that if he finds he was wrong, he will clearly and eloquently describe how his beliefs changed and what the process of discovery was like. These are the types of discussions a new generation needs to grow up with, to cast off the yoke or relgiousity and narratives-over-truth with has passed for discourse on campuses and media lately.

[@jausti2]

Lol at you supporting two race grifters that are employed by a right wing think tank. You need to read some books from ppl with actual subject matter expertise and not support politically funded propaganda. This is just a dishonest narrative that lacks data and research to support it. The generalizations used here are lazy and so transparent.

[@coryb8796]

I wish I could download that intro for a morning alarm!

[@Chim510]

Finally, a discussion between these two great thinkers.

[@Theyungcity23]

They've definition done at least one discussion like this before. Maybe it's on McWhorter's channel

[@hippipdip]

If this was a rap battle I’d be standing behind McWhorter on stage as his hype man yelling, “Talk that bigotry of low expectations shit!!!”

[@valley5617]

Yes!! I was disappointed that he conflated poverty with criminality. That is not fair to all people of limited means who maintain their morals and integrity. I haven’t heard anything about absence of fathers or low expectations

[@hippipdip]

@Andy Mann At a minimum they were assholes, and very likely racist. I’m sorry you had to deal with that. It sounds awful.

[@serpentines6356]

​@@valley5617 I hear poverty being blamed for criminality all the time. Very frustrating. Guess people forget about all the poor people who scraped by but didn't turn to crime because they had valura, and self respect.

[@MsJones-qo2kx]

I really enjoyed this conversation & will be purchasing the book discussed. Coleman, I listen to your podcast regularly and can't believe you have a hard time getting folks, specifically black folks who have different opinions to sit down and chat with you on your show. Blows my mind because your obviously intelligent and extremely professional with great ideas...no name calling or negativity. Love it. I have discussions with a friend of mine regarding the topics you discuss and use some of the info from listening to you as well as my own research and personal experience. Now, not that it's relevant buuuut Coleman you are easy on the eyes... soooo it does make it so much more pleasurable to watch your KZbin channel besides listening to your podcast. Take care.

[@BitchbetterHavemymoney-k1f]

I agree this guy is genius! John McWhorter is breath of fresh air! I don’t agree with everything he saids, but I believe he’s objective! Him and Lamont gill should get together! Both intelligent, I would like to see the intellectual balance between them! They are similar just on different ends of the race speactrum.

[@ForeverYoungKickboxer]

Bless you for giving space for this conversation! 1969 Gen Xer here born Coatesville, PA.

[@rach4742]

Great conversation - I look forward to getting John McWhorter‘s book. I want to mention something John brought up with relation to Christianity. I was raised Catholic, fell away from it for a while, and I’m now revisiting it with the guidance of a very knowledgeable priest and scripture scholar in a Catholic Parish near my home. John mentioned that no one in Christianity can explain why God allows bad things to happen. The Catholic answer to this is that God gave humans free will, because free will is necessary for true love. It’s not really love if we have no choice in the matter. So God gave us free will so that we could choose to love Him and to love each other. The word “sin” means division, and the Bible is ultimately about division among humans and our division away from God, and Jesus coming to unify us with each other and with God. I’m sure my priest, and other theologians could give a more comprehensive view on this, but I felt compelled to share this information, because it was not some thing I had fully understood growing up, and now that I’m understanding much more about the rationale behind many of the Catholic Church’s teachings, I wish I had understood them sooner.

[@bryanb30]

So many things one would only talk about in person with these gentlemen! Commenting is never really a satisfying option for thoughtful conversations regarding such topics. ☮️

[@arip3363]

Vocation schools are a huge part of the German education system. Young people, or even older people, can learn a trade and are getting paid during the duration of their apprenticeship. Mind you, it's not a lot of money but it's much better than having to pay for the training. It's a good option for children who struggle in school for various reasons.

[@galemartin9155]

I finished reading the book. He makes good points but he still has the same fatal flaw as Thomas Stowell and Cornell West when they discuss being black. They believe I need someone's permission and acceptance to be who I am. I do not. Muhammad Ali gave me the best advice through his life. That is "I don't need to be what you all want me to be I need to be who I am". The book is well written but I find no value in it. I will choose my own path regardless of the white Christian conservative power structure, regardless of black culture(which I dearly love) regardless of anyone's gods and regardless of this reality. This is my truth and I live it.

[@01What10]

I've been reading the book, haven't finished it yet, but it's good. Really good. I agree with Coleman it is one of the best I have read on the subject. A great companion piece to James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose's Cynical Theories book. I really think that if you have both this book and that one, you have a VERY comprehensive look at this new ideological, secular religion that is sweeping the western world and burning down our neighborhoods. These will be indespensible must have tools in the battle against this insipid ideology... I mean.... Religion. (Which, I agree, it is.)

[@NeffieJane85]

As someone who’s watched a lot of his and Glenn Loury’s videos and many McWhorter videos, will I be getting to hear any ideas only shared in this new book?

[@matthewharris8819]

Yeah, if you are getting your opinions from a neo Nazi like James Lindsay you're already on the wrong track.

[@01What10]

@@matthewharris8819 A neo nazi!?! Looks as though you haven't read any of the material he and those he has worked with have published, and instead get your information from the mentally ill horde of lunatics on Twitter. You have made a claim that Lindsay is a neo nazi, where is your proof?? Something tells me, you yourself are ideologically compromised by the very religion that John McWhorter and others are discussing in their books and podcasts.

[@01What10]

@@NeffieJane85 If you listen to those guys you have probably heard a lot of what is discussed in his book. The book is a great collection of a lot of the ideas those two discuss on their show. The book is worth reading though, I haven't finished it just yet, but am reading when I have the time.

[@pammonson3036]

@@matthewharris8819 Have you read his book? He’s certainly not a neo Nazi!

[@robertryan1663]

Absolutely fabulous conversation. Love the pragmatic approach offered. The three changes discussed would be beneficial to do vast majority of people regardless of their melanin content. The suggestion that phonics be universally taught took me by surprise but I couldn't agree more. It was the norm when I attended grammar school in the 60s, and it works. We never should have gotten away from it. Going to order the book now.

[@ellenharper6571]

I preordered John McWhorter's book so I could read it the nanosecond it came out. And yet, I have still not read it. It sits (digitally) at the bottom of a pile of other e-books that I'm working through. Most of these have entertainment value, but few have lasting significance. After watching this, I'm moving McWhorter's book to the top of the pile. Thanks Coleman Hughes for an excellent interview and John McWhorter for the, as always, cogent responses.

[@BenWeeks-ca]

13:30 So beautifully phrased that it gave Coleman goosebumps to read: "To black people who have fallen under the misimpression that for us only, cries of weakness constitute a kind of strength. And for us only, what makes us interesting, what makes us matter, is a curated persona as eternally victimized souls. Ever carrying and defined by the memories and injuries of our people across the four centuries behind us. Ever unrecognized, ever misunderstood, ever in assorted senses unpaid." -John McWhorter, Woke Racism

[@markstevenson2492]

Ive just discovered Coleman, what an absolute legend (sorry Im British). Just a brilliant interviewer, allows the guests to speak but also brings a lot of charm and charisma to the proceedings. Just great 👍

[@nancydelvalle7728]

Bear with me a second here. I can hardly concentrate while looking at Colman’s beautiful face! Omg he’s gorgeous. And intelligent too! loved this interview. Once I was able to get myself together and listen to it. My father and his family were cotton pickers who traveled across the southern states. He experienced insufferable discrimination and abuse. He could hardly speak of it without tearing up. He refused to have his children carry his pain forward!! He would not tolerate us speaking negatively about any other race. My father said his job was to suffer so that we wouldn’t have to suffer as much and we’d do the same for our children and so on. We were quite aware of my father’s hardships but they were his. We didn’t take them upon ourselves and carry them into the next generation. All that my father struggled for would have been for naught! Thank you both very for your contribution to this serious dilemma.

[@canopeaz]

If someone tells me "Racism is prejudice plus power", I say "no, racism is a set of attitudes and beliefs, that any person of any level of power can have, and you don't get to change long-standing definitions of words for your own political purposes".

[@metaphoricdirigible1499]

I say that you can recognize that there may be different magnitudes to the practical effects of a given act to different groups of people without ignoring or minimizing the morality or practical effect of the act as individuals. Racism is equally morally repugnant from anybody to anybody, while also recognizing that in say early 20th century USA, a white person doing something racist against a black person disproportionately endangers black Americans as a whole more than the other way around would endanger white Americans as a whole because of the power imbalance. Most people would agree with this, but the wokesters see a magnified influence of systemic racism today and so prioritize class-based analysis that individual actions or morality are moot, not worth considering.

[@DavidRexGlenn]

I am leery to add my opinion because A) I'm white and people might think I'm a conservative B) opinions are the most worthless commodity in the universe but... I agree with Coleman. So much has improved for both women and black people, yet we have these legacy institutions whose mission was to fight disparities and bureaucracies don't dissolve quietly overnight. As long as there is money to be made off of a problem, that problem will persist. It's why the War on Drugs was so ineffective, it became an economy unto itself

[@ryanmullins9339]

There should be a superlike button for viewers. I support all 3 of McWhorter's suggestions💯

[@aswithinsowithout]

It was truly valuable for both of you to share so many of your internal questions and thought processes. Lol. I did pause the podcast to pick up the book. Great advice! This interview was my intro to your channel. What a gem. Subbed!

[@busynessy798]

A conversation between 2 of my favorite people.

[@NM-qo6cd]

John McWhorter reminds me of Tom from the animated TV show “The Boondocks” for some reason. I think it’s the voice.

[@emmanuelboakye1124]

His voice is rich👍👍

[@Survivor-i9h]

That is where it started. I was painted a racist on facebook in 2019, by a women that I was friends with since highschool. She is portorecian (not spelled right), but my spell checker on my phone cuts off on these videos. Idk why it does. Anyhow, it hurt me badly, but I stood my ground. Listen to these youtubers guys. They are very intelligent people. Stand up to bullies like this. Stand your grounds and stick to your gut. I'm white, so this is not a race thing. This is a bully thing.

[@RasaanJ]

I like John.. I do, but I do find that there are various gaps in his positions and arguments. Most of his interviews I've seen are people who are in line with his ideas but pose very little "straightforward" pushback to his ideas.

[@NoahJamesHittner]

Thank you both so much for the calm and objective dialog. So crucial.

[@b_tang]

Just wow. Amazing discourse.

[@AustinNovel]

Thank you for this bro. Much love

[@Doutsoldome]

There is a certain kind of intellectual that gives me pleasure to listen to.

[@josephuia]

Thanks to both of you Coleman and John for the courage to be yourselves in front of everyone’s judgements and Bring sense to a time in the world that needs it so badly

[@jakevincent3057]

Brilliant man.

[@pathfinderwellcare]

It's so bizarre that some people cannot think in a non dualistic manner. The inability to hold the opposites as both being true. It is also so interesting that here we have a conversation about how one group of people cannot be persuaded to change their minds while simultaneously being that same kind of person. Lastly, there is an instance to stereotype people who hold certain beliefs without nuance. For example, I am a feminist and conservative. I don't think cooking for my family, an expression of my love and care, is oppressive. This is just one small example to point out that until we stop judging, stereotyping and scapegoating and actually take the time to listen and imagine together, it will continue being a mess.

[@lemarjewell9713]

We Have Already Proved Ourselves

[@Ok-bw9nr]

This was truly interesting. I appreciate the forum. I learned quite a bit. Thank you for being a rationale medium for a healthy dialog.

[@chuckcpass]

I could listen to these two talk for three hours and then I would complain that the show wasn't long enough.

[@jimpalmer2981]

I'm interested by McWhorter's use of the terms "religion" and particularly "the elect." That's a Calvinist concept. It has often struck me that the kind of "woke religion" he's describing has a lot of parallels with traditional New England Calvinist Puritanism (it may be too glib or facile to note that woke religiosity emerged largely in the same geographic space once occupied by Puritanism and in many of the same colleges founded by Puritans): the idea that anyone who doesn't ascribe to our way of thinking is damned, that there are lots of people who will never get it anyhow, and that we're allowed to use any means at our disposal for the furtherance of the Truth. In contrast, it seems like the kind of messianism that Trump stirs up (and that's a religion too) echoes more closely the tent-revival Southern Baptism of Appalachia and the Deep South. Even if we no longer believe the tenets of the religion, the same religious impulse comes out and takes traditional forms. Anyhow, fascinating discussion. Thanks for having it and posting it.

[@edwinamendelssohn5129]

It's like racism is the cardinal sin, you must confess. The missing part is forgiveness

[@rogerward801]

Trumpism is the child of personality

[@matthewkopp2391]

I like the Calvinist church I was raised In. We don’t believe in an elect. It was and is a very progressive UCC. one can actually call it „woke“ but there is a huge difference from the secularist progressive movement because they have no transcendent or universal concept which relativizes their ego, you might say. The general teaching is The Mote and the Beam of Matthew 7:1 Having an understanding of the transcendent and the universal is what made Rev MLK or Rev Paul Tillich (from UCC) so inspired and effective for social change. IMO it doesn’t have to be religion, you can have that understanding without religion, but the secular woke generally don’t.

[@ryanwall5760]

I too am slow to ascribe bad motive when misunderstanding will do. I have also stopped engaging with people insistent on telling me I’m a Nazi and an evil person. They are clearly not open to any kind of discussion and have decided beforehand that I’m too evil to engage with. Great interview. Thank you both.

[@flain283]

Reading all the comments on this video - wow such a breath of fresh air compared to the rest of the internet these days. It's given me a positive outlook on all things in general. Thankyou.

[@gothmaze]

You are, sir, a genuine genius, and I wish I had heard this a decade ago. Religious freedom means disagreement, not erasure. It means a shift in knowledge, not forcing people to abandon Jesus. Insanity. I am no longer Christian but I would never want someone to give up their faith in Jesus if it makes them happy. We can coexist without uprooting someone's way of life. I just want science protected. 💚

[@russellt.shackelford4968]

"For private reasons I wont share I know she wasnt a bigot." 80s John was gettin' all the ladies.

[@tulip5210]

yeah what i've wanted this entire time is to know what actually does help people.

[@wild62meg47]

thanks

[@chrisxavier1848]

Good for people to see the difference between religion and personal worship of God.

[@Salamander407]

Lol. Last year my work brought DeAngelo and her grifters in for us to attend, most people never went to see her, the auditorium was practically empty. Lol

[@zaxtoy2431]

It is so refreshing to hear intellectuals talk about ending the war on drugs. It causes nothing but pain. The war on drugs seems especially pointless now that so many of the drugs have shown to be useful in many medical situations. We must bring this to the forefront of the political conversation.

[@billabongxbabie28]

Amazing conversation, always love seeing these 2 brilliant minds have a chat. I was in a stage for a long time of trying to better understand all of this, and ended up gravitating towards people like Candace Owens because I just couldn't see the 'anti-racist' movement as something that truly benefited the black community. Then I found people like John, Coleman & Glenn and I realized that I actually have a lot of disagreements with those more right-wing view points & pundits and their 'solutions' weren't great either. I truly appreciate the space y'all have created of open conversation & helping to show me the things that are problems, the things that aren't, and most importantly the ways in which we can create true change instead of just talking about it. (no shade to Candace btw I just don't agree with some of her arguments or her approach to things)

[@Holly-days]

Please also consider reading Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell... All esteemed black scholars in their own rights and respected highly by the two gentlemen here. Some people REACT to events; these men RESPOND. Big difference because while the latter requires understanding from study, the former does not.

[@billabongxbabie28]

@@Holly-days I love Thomas Sowell, haven't checked out Shelby or Walter yet though so I definitely will. Thanks for the suggestions!

[@JoseReyes-rj9zc]

@Andy Mann And here you go again 🤣🤣🤣 And apparently your very intelligent according to you and yet your here commenting on every thread trying to prove something. What exactly? Don't know and who gives a shit 🤣🤣🤣 I'm just saying bro. Do something that's meaningful. I probably should too🤣🤣🤣

[@syourke3]

Please interview Cornell West. That would be very interesting.

[@billearl9394]

Brilliant conversation, enlightening.

[@markustanbeck9149]

Good talk Coleman, really enjoyed listening to your exchange - thank you for making this conversation happen 🙏

[@5th-Season]

These two are top tier thinkers, and doers. Love to hear your thoughts and appreciate your work.

[@sunrae3971]

54:19 From a German perspective i ask myself how you become a high skilled worker in the US - in a trade or craft - without vocational training? Do you have to pay in the US for that? I learned a craft and made a university master degree afterwards. But usually an vocational upgrade would mean you become a Master in a Trade or Craft and visit a Master Vocational Training. In my general opinion on entry level vocational vs. university.i Skills wise the only difference is that one needs more practical skills, while the other shapes you almost 100% in theoretical skills. Yet both are demanding if you want to be the best. Besides that the world needs theory and practice. For me Craftsmanship is also Art without the flashy words. I guess it´s a cultural think that big corporate america does not like the idea, that there is a somewhat independent Craftsmanship culture outside of their control, even thought they would benefit of it. My Respect to all Craftsmen and Craftswoman!

[@Rballjim5]

Truley enjoyed!

[@cjs9859]

Wonderful conversation. Looking forward to diving deep into John's new book

[@GTJ65]

Coleman, can you please give John a few pointers on the quality and use of his audio visual equipment. Your presentation is broadcast quality. Although the discourse is as usual 5 stars.

[@michaelweber5702]

So glad getting to hear you both in conversation , thank you ( I wish that it could of been at least two hours ) ...

[@carladehaas7866]

I wish this could be on "prime time. "

[@vinasel96]

Two great brains!! Thank you!!

[@jeffreyqiu5128]

Thank you Coleman and John! So beautifully and poignantly put. Glad I came across the podcast and John's book.

[@NFTeve]

I was called Karen (again) on my morning walk. It’s so sad & frightening how we are all being played by the media. I love all people but I’m not going to be blamed for anyone’s problems based on my skin tone. Like I have a charmed life. LOL. We are all humans living a human life which is characterized by struggle, difficulties and tragedy.

[@jasongrosser9910]

Very honest analysis, even while there is a storm brewing outside in the other direction.

[@dl6860]

Thanks to both of you!