Debating Race and Incarceration with Vincent Lloyd

[@ColemanHughesOfficial]

Pre-order my book: "The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America" - bit.ly/48VUw17

[@stonecoldscubasteveo4827]

"I'm not a policy person."-- What you say when anyone confronts you with the potential harms of your batshit crazy positions.

[@ulose2piranha]

Exactly. To me, there's a certain level of hypocrisy there. Abolishing prisons IS a policy position. Refusing to have any sort of holding system for people actively harming others IS a policy position. When the obvious problems with your policy position are immediately pointed out, it's not reasonable to hide behind this claim of not being a policy person. You don't have to have all the kinks figured out, but simply refusing to offer anything more than "Cages are immoral" is a cop out.

[@roadventer]

He's not a policy person, but he has policy suggestions, like to empty the prisons. "Wouldn't that be a problematic policy?" "I'm not a policy person."

[@dtgris7291]

“I’m not a policy person” well, saying “abolish prisons” IS a policy. Also I damn near lost it when he said “we should look to the wisdom of the past” with respect to justice without prisons. Oh, the same past in which slavery was universal and sometimes used in lieu of prisons? SMDH 😂

[@anyakirby2014]

A huge thank you to Vincent for speaking with dignity, smile and respect towards his opponent; which is not the case when it comes to people of his views. A great thank you to Colman for highly intelligent questions and deeply thought through arguments of his case.

[@therainman7777]

@whos afraid of ennio morricone The truth is always a great look.

[@willpower3317]

@@doppelclausell said. Get off the internet, people. Most on the political left are reasonable enough in real life.

[@bluengrey1]

Mr. Lloyd seems more optimistic about human nature when it applies to violent criminals than he does for anti-black racists or cops.

[@jackdeniston59]

Guy seriously needs to be robbed.

[@TheMightyWalk]

He’s never lived any where in the neighborhood he’s speaking on

[@maxyuen9175]

And he is right. The cops are based for eliminating the crazy animals

[@brek5]

But I am always frustrated by the lack of friggin examples by these guys. I have a personal one from the Netherlands where I lived for a while. I had been out of a night, drinking, might have smoked, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I fell asleep on my bus, went to my destination and back to the main station in Amsterdam. I was woken upo by a small female cop, and she was stern but feminine, asking me what I was on, why I had slept, etc. I answered, and it was clear I had just overslept and wasn't just some lingerer, mentally ill person, or what have you. I was told to get off the bus, but another ticket, and go home. Now, guess what was behind her. Yeah, two massive Dutch male cops who would have handled me like I was a 12-year-old school girl, haha. She was the first response, the nice but stern face on figuring out what was going on, but she had the muscle to back her up if her approach didn't work. Not everything is cut and dry. It's a mixed approach.

[@josephl9619]

@@jackdeniston59 hahahaha

[@relly793]

Vincent: WE SHOULD LET EVERYBODY IN PRISON OUT Coleman: ***BREATHES HEAVY****

[@brianmeen2158]

Vincent says that because he wouldn’t have to live near the freed prisoners - only poor black, white and brown people would

[@PercyChips]

@@brianmeen2158 Otherwise known as just 'people'

[@walthaley3858]

I think the full count for the interview was 9 heavy sighs😂

[@kcsantos6634]

I am envious of Mr Lloyd’s privilege, optimism and naïveté… Bless his heart!!! As always Coleman is a intelligent, considered and patient guest.

[@brianmeen2158]

I listened to Lloyd on Lourys podcast and he lives in a much different reality than I do

[@brek5]

Can he say "spaces" one more time? I would appreciate it. I love that word, lol.

[@kcsantos6634]

@@brianmeen2158 Just listened to that episode and I could feel the cynicism from both Glenn and John.

[@LeviNotik]

Coleman is the host, not the guest 😉

[@limop20]

@@brianmeen2158 than the vast majority of citizens do

[@mrgeorgejetson]

Coleman really has the patience of a saint. The guy is unflappable. What a piece of work this Lloyd person is. Just amazing.

[@sofvines3940]

I was thinking that same thing. Do you suppose Colemans deep sighs is him channeling his frustration? 😅

[@mrgeorgejetson]

@@sofvines3940 I definitely do, yes. I'm sitting here at home and still finding it very difficult not to roll my eyes at his guest. The guy's a rock.

[@sofvines3940]

@@mrgeorgejetson 🤣100!

[@JoshYenne]

I agree if you ever find it frustrating that Coleman never pins someone down and ask for a follow up question when the person obfuscate and dances around actually answering it or defending a point. That’s my only disappointment. It is frustrating because it doesn’t feel like a real debate because it always stays so friendly.

[@JoshYenne]

Oh, OK. At least the very last part Coleman does this yes!

[@alaryanmobile1476]

You should have asked him if Derek Chauvin should be released and what is the community solution for that.

[@iamdanielmonroe]

Lol I literally laughed out loud reading this 🤣

[@jamarmays8667]

Perfect 😂

[@ianl5882]

💯

[@normanshadow1]

I would sincerely like to hear him answer that one

[@therainman7777]

😂

[@TheGroceryman2]

it's frightening how a professor cannot come up with any objective metrics that test whether his hypothesis would be incorrect or wrong or lead to worse outcomes. he's a true believer that will always think failure of his experiments are evidence of not enough injection of the experiment.

[@jerrymorrow5209]

I thought the same. I don't think he would win a debate against a high schooler.

[@MethodFitness]

And his apparent indifference to who would bear the costs of his "experiments." Invariably it's the most vulnerable in society who have to suffer when out of touch elites practice their luxury beliefs (ht, Rob Henderson).

[@johnnyfive9815]

You just described progressive policies

[@brett6869]

@@MethodFitness One can know a priori that certain chemical reactions will or will not happen given the chemicals, the conditions and the presence (or absence) of catalysts. This guy can't do any causal thinking. He is just like Kendi; they are alchemists, not chemists. This guy is clearly a diversity hire and the professorship is a mask for the vacuum beneath.

[@realMaverickBuckley]

And this is a guy who has experienced first hand the Woke Mind Virus. If you can lose a classroom to, essentially, a student and STILL believe all the woke 'Oh woe is me' race victim BS... Jesus.. all I can say is good luck America. You've got California decriminalised p3dophilia, and then academia being taken.over by single race vultures.. yikes.

[@LeviNotik]

His description about the student's complaints about his aggressiveness lines up perfectly with what we know about wokeness. It is a vindictive, exacting religion bereft of any notion of forgiveness or understanding.

[@ams914]

Also a form of "cry-bullying." You attack, then cry victim when the person you attack defends themselves, or you constantly use claims of "harm" as to extort everyone around you and get them to bend to your will.

[@rfphill]

A religion that accuses you of original sin and offers nothing akin to grace or atonement...

[@andrewjoyner4133]

Yeah ain't that a surprise. Radical ideologues eating their own.

[@50footroman56]

Vincent Lloyd never even paused for a minute to consider how his entire world view is based on the a priori assumption that "systemic racism" is real. Coleman gave him many contradictory scenarios which Vincent effectively brushed off with "yea, but slavery". Even though Coleman warned against the fallacy of disparities, Vincent goes on to make them, "yea but red lining, yea but incarceration". Most revealing of all is at the end when Vincent says, with a straight face, that the police and prisons should be abolished, world wide, and all prisoners should be dumped out into society, even murderers. Unbelievable. He is being led to this asinine conclusion because of his a priori assumption that "systemic racism" is real, so in his mind he thinks ANY thing is better than what we have, because what we have is a matrix of racism. That's a conspiratorial cult-like world view. This man lives in a fantasy world based on his own intuitions. How do adults hold careers based on influencing kids with such world views? The amount of times Vincent was asked why he holds a specific view (after that view was contradicted) for him to defer to various other views as proof of some sort of mountain of evidence was ridiculous. It's like asking a a religious person how they can still believe their religion is true, after you debunk their favourite passage, and they thumb through their holy book and say, "well, just look at all this other evidence". I think I agree with John McWhorter, I don't think someone like Vincent can be convinced that he's in the wrong because he holds religious beliefs.

[@ianl5882]

Thank you! You nailed it!

[@andyn647]

Well said

[@liamwinter4512]

This is a perfect example of a African Ivory Tower.

[@illuminahde]

James Lindsay classification of the religious nature of the woke belief system might interest you. As an atheist, I've often felt as if I was talking to a flat earth creationist when talking about issues of race. Lindsay makes the argument that while unknowingly doing so, the woke ideology is derived from Gnosticism and Hermeticism. I know it's an odd comparison at first glance but I implore you guys too give a listen. James' channel is New Discourses btw. Honestly, it really helped put things in perspective for me.

[@Jopacob]

The guest knows all to well that rejection or examination of the underlying theory (which means an unproven idea, not a cannon of thinking) means his paycheck will be lost. Captured and bought. The sad fact is many "intellectuals" have sold their capacity and potential to the paycheck.

[@frankharvey88]

I was completely blown away by how bad his answer to the prison question was. The prison system has a LOT of issues, but that does not mean we let murderers free. Wow.

[@georgsyphers1437]

Coleman, every argument you articulate is well thought out, inclusive, incisive, and delivered with great patience. I applaud you for inviting debate with someone whose point of view is radically divorced from yours, and Vincent for engaging in it as well, even if I disagree with a wild amount of the ideology over reason driven self-centric thinking Vincent engages in, especially his insanity of no prisons, but I am deeply impressed by his willingness to engsge with both you and Loury & McWhorter, it shows an openness to something other than strict ideologies purity which is currently unusual among progressives.

[@sofvines3940]

Yes....although I feel it may be easy for the good professor to come talk to Coleman and Glen because he manages to distort and not really answer almost every question 😅

[@shamshiadad9878]

Coleman is easily one of the most objective thinkers when it comes to topic of race. He really knows his stuff when it comes to policing and race, and he gives great counter arguments to this guest.

[@Trishpage312]

Holy shit! This is SO CRAZY! This man is in LALA LAND! I’m hearing that term luxury beliefs. He oozes woke university professor. I’m listening to this on Spotify but I think I need to watch this again. I’m glad he agreed to talk to you. I don’t hear the other side really because they are never challenged and it makes me nuts. Thanks!

[@arryospeedwagon]

Damn. He lost all credibility with the "keeping a person in a cage is wrong" but having zero answers for what to do with murderers and rapists. Kudos to Coleman for pressing him on it and saying point blank that he's very unsatisfied with the non answer.

[@terranbiped8358]

I’d hire them as counselors at Camp Telluride.

[@ricodelavega4511]

welll, he then stated agreement that there are circumstances where people will need to be removed from communities. It sounds like his prison is a geographic one.

[@gg_rider]

Justice for .. all of em Charles Murray, Darlene Brisco, Girard Smith, and wounded Brittany Murray A Black woman took her neighbor's parking spot so he killed her grandmother, father & best friend Ak Nation News Apr 28, 2023

[@jeanlukeskye]

Hey! I watch Ak Nation TV too. If you can handle the language, you can learn a lot. I think is very smart with a get twist to it. Much respect to him and the people who come on his podcast @@gg_rider

[@MethodFitness]

And this is why wokesters don't come on Hughes' show. Because they almost immediately are revealed to be comically intellectually underpowered. And I'm sorry to have to put it that way--Professor Lloyd is clearly an earnest, intelligent, thoughtful person, I was glad to hear what he had to say--but like so many others he's captured by an ideology that's incapable of survival outside of a carefully circumscribed bubble. The power of this ideological capture made all the more poignant by his having been savaged by it and yet still unable to see it from any remove.

[@ianl5882]

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. You save me the trouble of organizing, my thoughts, as you just did ;-) truly, though… You nailed it.

[@MethodFitness]

@@ianl5882 🙏🏼

[@TubeDude78]

Very well put.

[@realMaverickBuckley]

Indeed. America and some other Western nations are on the precipice of something terrible if they don't stop this race grifting woke nonsense. So 80% of their time was going to be towards racism against a race that makes up 11% of the country? Nothing for Hispanics, nothing for South Asian , nothing for east Asian, 20% for a race that makes up less than 1% of the nation and nothing about racism that seems to be the only racism that's not only NOT addressed its encouraged. Great balanced plan there. And to think they wanted 100% of the time on racism against only 1 of the 5 main races in the US. God help you guys over there.

[@therainman7777]

Damn man.. you are an excellent writer. That was beautiful and eloquently put. And true.

[@mimetrickster]

It's impressive how Vincent managed to say so much without saying anything in reference to questions or contradictions Coleman pins against him.

[@bluestoehr]

Yes! Exactly! Thank you for saying that.

[@bluestoehr]

This guest lives in books and theory. Not real life.

[@fromireland8663]

The whole point of our criminal justice system was to terminate rough justice and endless revenge killings, which was way worse than incarceration.

[@realMaverickBuckley]

Dud this guy really just say 'We don't imprison murderers or pedophiles and if they kill again maybe we try something else. With a fucking smile on his face??!! Well I hope nobody ever cones after his children.😠

[@dtgris7291]

@@realMaverickBuckley he also said we should look to “the wisdom of the past” With respect to a justice system without prisons. The same past in which slavery was universal and could be used as a form of punishment. I’m pretty generous when it comes to discussing views and entertaining ideas, but his take on abolishing prisons and blatantly…NOT…having a solution other than “I trust local grassroots efforts” (paraphrasing) was hard to take seriously. It screams ivory tower thinking that is detached from the realities of the human condition.

[@scottparker9500]

The problem with these prison abolitionist types is that even if they do spend any amount of time around incarcerated people, they are easily manipulated by their stories of how they are the real victims and how unfair everything is for them. I worked in corrections for 20 years and have seen the manipulation up close. Coleman absolutely nailed it when he talked about how a certain percentage is reformable and a percentage is irredeemable. There was a prisoner I worked with who injured his own leg so he would be transported out for X-rays at the hospital. When his restraints were removed, he disarmed and murdered the officer and fled. He was quickly captured and transferred to my facility where he spend the next few years complaining about everything and to the point where the administration had a special grievance process tailored to him. Not particularly relevant to his major crimes, but his face was also literally covered with prison gang white supremacy tattoos. Where would this professor have an individual like this reside (besides a cage or coffin)? I’m genuinely curious…

[@brianmeen2158]

Vince probably doesn’t have an answer to where the released criminals should live. I have to imagine he’d want them far away from him and his family though . He seems to think that with town meetings and counseling that hardened criminals can be fixed. I disagree with him completely

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@brianmeen2158I’m a former barrister (trial lawyer), and you are absolutely right. Criminals lie about everything, even when the truth would help them.

[@Sam-kp7ti]

Even while I disagree with Vincent on much of what he says, I really respect his willingness to actually discuss the important topic of race in America, to allow ideas to be shaped into better working pieces, which we need!!!!

[@HAMETE]

Unbelievable for a university professor to witness how some activists hijack his course and he can't help it and at the same time believe that a society without authority can prosper. Incredible

[@hudsonharing9484]

I was starting to understand why Kinshasa hijacked his class by the end of the podcast. Just hearing him say well we need to experiment and figure it out but I'm not a policy guy 500 times was maddening

[@davidleicht6302]

I’m astonished by the professor’s vagueness and the inability to meaningfully address Coleman’s arguments. He repeatedly said he isn’t a policy guy yet was recommending radical changes for not just America but the world as a whole. If he’s genuinely confident in his beliefs on these complex issues, he needs to clearly articulate them to at least give us an idea of his vision for society.

[@tatpole99]

A less judicious person would say "Coleman Hughes crushes anti-rascist professor." There was definitely a substantial intellectual imbalance, although I'm glad the conversation happened.

[@trollingisasport]

Colemon was Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. The other guy was Jar Jar Binks.

[@diranshouse7061]

One is a college graduate a d the other is a Professor 😢

[@donproles6654]

It's one thing to be a compassionate and sensitive person, but another to be afraid to call out BS when you see and confidently establish yourself as the expert. Lloyd seems eternally willing to give the "benefit of the doubt" to more aggressive people that are ready and willing to take advantage of him.

[@colinreese]

Coleman told him his perception of police only killing black people was wrong and why, and Vincent just ignored what he said.

[@brianmeen2158]

I’ve learned it is pointless to discuss police violence and other issues with the woke left. They simply cannot register reality like we do. You could show them tons of data that completely deflate their narrative and it won’t matter to them.

[@TubeDude78]

Not just that, he ignored basically everything Coleman said through the entire conversation. Just endless dissembling.

[@holidaytrout5174]

I don't think this guy has ever been challenged on these ideas so this is good for him

[@cks8082]

Most people don’t have the guts that Coleman has. I’ll go as far to say that Vincent has some White Guilt going on. Can you imagine Vincent having a hot take on something….his career would be over. Even when he talks about what happened to him during the seminar he’s treading lightly. I feel bad for these professors. Thanks for the convo gentlemen.

[@lonemoderate9471]

Man I feel bad for Dr. Lloyd. He got kicked around by his students in his seminar and then Coleman outclasses him in a debate. Kudos to Dr. Lloyd for discussing these issues though, we need more conversations like this. Also, no wonder Ibram X Kendi doesn't want to debate Coleman... Kendi has a lot to lose from an open debate if he brings the same arguments to the table as Dr Lloyd does. At this point I think Kendi is ducking Coleman like Floyd Mayweather Jr. was ducking prime Pacquiao.

[@Manducket]

This was hard to watch. It's interesting at first until you realize the true culprit is the professor himself. It's like a Scooby-Doo episode where the kids remove the mask of the tyrant student, and underneath is the professor blaming systems and slavery. Coleman is great as per usual.

[@natashaburke1533]

Keisha is his Frankenstein

[@therainman7777]

😂

[@vickils9571]

As someone who worked in a psychiatric hospital, when a patient becomes violent there is an all-staff code called, if de-escalation attempts fail then a patient take-down is warranted. followed by restraints, and sedation. A take-down usually involves multiple people. If staff is not able to contain the patient, the police are called.

[@mariuspettersen-no]

And we should not forget that those departments are safe in regards to items that can be used to harm others. Mental health professionals being called for a domestic disturbance could face weapons and misc blunt objects.

[@hamm0155]

Thank you for offering this

[@sofvines3940]

How can you claim not being a "policy person" as a reason to not offer a viable solution, while at the same time feeling qualified to criticize policies?

[@vem32]

Really good to see this discussion, my compliments to Vincent for participating. I found a lot of Vincent's replies to consist largely of dissembling. The discussion of abolition of prison's reminded me of a bloggingheadsTV discussion of neoliberalism vs. socialism, where when the Jacobin representative was asked "who will make the smart phones in the new system?" the answer given amounted to "I don't know but I'm excited to find out!" to which the response in turn was "given the history of command economies, I don't know but I'm excited to find out isn't good enough." I felt a lot of the same vibes here. A lot of "Yes I agree that is a concern but...(gish gallop)"

[@therainman7777]

“Yes I agree that is a concern but (gish gallop)” is SO accurate.. my god

[@TheSpinoza43221]

If Coleman had trouble finding people to debate on the left before this, I can only imagine his luck finding them after this will be even worse. Thanks for the great content.

[@gloifti]

I'd recommend that the professor, as a kind of participant observer experience, spend a year living in an apartment in an urban public housing project.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I respect Vincent Lloyd for his dedication to open discussion. He also discussed his experience with Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on the Glenn Show. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aamYp36EaL-Beq8

[@georgiemerry8929]

Love the Glenn show

[@DMHightower]

Mr. Lloyd should take a look at the extreme spikes of violent crime in New York since they have stopped putting bail on people get arrested. There are people that are getting arrested several days in a row for robbery, which is a very serious and violent crime, but they can't be held in jail and so they go out and do it again.

[@jojolina7]

At mental hospitals if someone is out of control, they are physically restrained, placed in mechanical restraints on a bed and then chemically sedated. There is no magic to that.

[@roadventer]

When Lloyd said there are lots of "mental health professionals" who deal with these issues every day, he was correct. But he doesn't seem to know or acknowledge that in many cases, there is no _effective_ treatment beyond their ability to restrain the subject, physically or chemically. He also doesn't seem to know anything about what those "mental health professionals" do, including the fact that most of the people providing care are not "professionals" in any academic sense. (Not that that makes any difference; the professionals are almost as powerless to cure psychosis as anybody else.)

[@craig4320]

I hope that this episode will inspire others who disagree with Colman to come on his show. There is value in having open and respectful disagreement like this. I enjoy seeing people defending their view of truth. I want to see people come to agree on the actual facts of reality. I would struggle to maintain my attention on a two hour conversation with no disagreement and little chance of seeing anyone consider how to improve their view.

[@diranshouse7061]

Sadly, it will do the opposite. Even though Coleman was very respectful. The professor sounds like a child compared to Coleman. I doubt this is an endorsement for those on the college left. They are so far gone.

[@aaronjohnson6261]

It’s amazing how little a professor of race studies has thought through his positions.

[@brianmeen2158]

It is shocking to me! It’s very obvious he’s not only never had his ideas challenged but he seems to have never heard people on the other sides viewpoints . You’d think he’d be the one that has had his ideas challenged the most but nope

[@cyberft]

@@brianmeen2158 it shouldn’t be surprising at all. He “studies” a field that doesn’t touch reality so any answer will do.

[@jessesewell7922]

“It’s not that Johnny can’t think. He doesn’t know what thinking is. He confuses it with feeling.” The Dr Thomas Sowell

[@oladeebiazazi4538]

@@jessesewell7922I don’t know why y’all love Thomas Sowell so much

[@vagabond197979]

Shows which side thinks with logic versus feelings.

[@benephelps]

I love Coleman. I love his rhetorical skill. Such a smart guy who communicates so much while remaining easy to follow.

[@ZagrosŞêxbizin]

Vincent never really addresses any of Coleman’s arguments…

[@nothingreally1234]

The prison segment was super interesting. Vincent danced around everything and i loved Coleman’s challenges because they were completely necessary. Vincent was arguing like I used to when I was writing a paper where I couldn’t really find a good thesis so I would just say “humans are complicated creatures.”

[@WhizzingFish12]

He seems like a genuinely nice person but has no ability to connect his ideology with reality. When pinned down, it was embarrassing how obvious his evasiveness was. This is why most progressives won't engage in debate - because their ideology collapses under even moderate pressure. The idea of trying to run a society along their worldview is absurd - and we see the proof in Portland, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.

[@TheGroceryman2]

@@nothingreally1234 he also never actually admitted to there being any objective metrics that would show to him that his experiment/hypothesis was incorrect. A professor without metrics to show failure...frightening times we live in.

[@tonycatman]

At one point, Vincent reverts immediately to slavery, and asks "What would it take to treat a person as property". He is right. You would have to think of that person as something less than human. However in order to apply this as a way that other people look at black people. we would have to be living in a world where only black people were enslaved by non-black people. It is a childishly simple thing to consider as a counterpoint, but a skill which the professor does not seem to be able to master.

[@anonymouscrow5849]

I just started this podcast, but THANK YOU BOTH for HAVING CONVERSATIONS. We need this so much.

[@sofvines3940]

How did you feel at the end. 😅 I was tremendously frustrated by the professors dodging nearly every one of Coleman's points

[@PavelHenkin]

What an incredibly polite way to not engage with reality..

[@therainman7777]

😂

[@stevecaststringtheory8691]

Vincent seems like a nice person who has been brainwashed into a way of circular thinking. Credit to him for coming on for the conversation, even though he was evasive with his answers and sometimes nonsensical, I got the impression that he legitimately listened to Coleman (even if the message never truly penetrated) and he never devolved into shouting or name calling or any of the other tropes that likeminded people have followed. His views on prison were exasperating. I saw him speak with Glenn Loury and John McWhorter not long ago, hopefully he will have enough conversations with people who disagree with him and some daylight will get through.

[@saracappello6805]

Professor Lloyd is a master of the word salad.

[@nirvanachile24]

A close second to Michael Eric Dyson

[@AlteraLin]

@@nirvanachile24 No one can beat MED at using the most syllables to say the least.

[@cattenborrow]

With croutons 😂

[@Michael-cb5nm]

The professor is a gentleman and comes to his beliefs sincerely. I give him credit for coming on and allowing his beliefs to come under scrutiny.

[@lonesomelooch5661]

Toxic empathy. His need to bend over backwards for his students is hurting them. Having said that, kudos to Mr. Lloyd for engaging. We need more conversations like this.

[@ianl5882]

Toxic empathy - I like that idea. You got me thinking…

[@killa3x]

Good term

[@williambarlow4632]

Pathologic/toxic empathy has over come this man. Letting the children dictate the rules will only lead to a Lord of the Flies situation. A firm hand would have given much better results.

[@spifflord308]

Coleman: makes a beautifully elegant point Vinny: thank you.

[@limop20]

😂 - maybe that is what you call a polite „out of touch with reality“ ideologist

[@JonathanRossRogers]

1:50:45 Coleman is describing exactly what happened to Lloyd in the class he was supposed to be teaching. Administrators were unable or unwilling to stand up against the tyrant Keisha.

[@tfustudios]

It's a great respectful discussion as usual Coleman, and as Vincent is eloquent in his responses, I find them a chilling example of the odd delusional bubble that academia has become.

[@TriteNight1218]

They are completely detached from reality.

[@brek5]

The idea that indigenous people have no prisons is absurd. I've been to them, haha, in both Africa and Asia, and the past? Coleman's response was spot on. God, this guy lives in a dream world (although I'm not arguing against prison reform in the West and the US specifically).

[@tfustudios]

@@brek5 I wonder how he'd treat white collar crime, or tax evasion!

[@corbini157]

Coleman is so well thought through and articulate in his responses. It amazes me that the alternative narrative can still be the prevailing one

[@stewstudboy]

The professor’s description of “the community should decide what happens to criminals ” is exactly how it works now😑

[@stewstudboy]

@XvonPocalypse the justice system 😑

[@edwinamendelssohn5129]

Do nothing

[@dkennell998]

Exactly - judged by a jury of your peers. So funny that if you push these tear-downers on how their system would work long enough, eventually they'll just reinvent the wheel we have currently plus maybe a fancy new name.

[@basedcentrist3056]

I knew you were always trying to get people on, never once thought you were creating an echo chamber. but debate is sorely needed so well done for bagging this one man, hopefully more to come!

[@brianmeen2158]

Yes but don’t you realize by now that debate really isn’t fruitful? I mean when it comes to debating the woke left .

[@basedcentrist3056]

@@brianmeen2158 I thought it was pretty fruitful to show how utterly insane his ideas are tbh

[@EBurstyn]

Lloyd completely lost me at letting the local communities decide what to do with murderers. Infinite horrible trajectories for letting small groups decide on their own laws and practices. Basically the wild west for cults.

[@roadventer]

If "local community" handling of crime is to be anything but vigilantism, it will have to have strict rules and protections for the accused as well as the community. We'd call those rules "laws." And as he proposes shutting down the State's criminal justice system, he offers no critique of, or alternative to, the existing laws. His is a perfect combination of blind unbridled optimism and "Burn it all down."

[@eric1138]

I think this is what Thomas Sowell might have meant about some intellectuals not being accountable for their ideas. .

[@kham6006]

Agreed

[@asisiphoguga195]

I don’t know if I am evil, but I am always happy when a woke person receives backlash from other woke people. He deserved everything he received from the Keisha person.

[@nancy6487]

At 29:56 I laughed out loud at your brilliant & witty description of what happens when “no one is in charge “!!! 84 y/o woman immigrant here to the most wonderful country to live in, where millions have found a safe haven here. I didn’t say’Perfect country’ - but the best there is to raise a family…. Coleman you are doing a wonderful fabulous job!!! Again thank you !!

[@onepartyroule]

I wish prof. Lloyd had engaged with Coleman's points more, but good on him for having the conversation in such a punative environment. The way he was ousted was shameful.

[@deborahtaylor4798]

I think this was a debate - two opposing views.

[@therainman7777]

@@deborahtaylor4798 He’s talking about the seminar.

[@kkampy4052]

This guy should do a ride along in the inner city neighborhoods and see what the police deal with.

[@DDD-yr5os]

All he really needs to do is watch several of these police traffic stops without the media editing the interaction to suit their narrative. How many videos are out there of cops being shot for simply pulling someone over for driving on a suspended license, driving a stolen car, or even fleeing from a crime? I don't love everything about my job. But at least no one is trying to shoot me for doing it.

[@storytellerdavis]

This was great. Made me think a lot. Will definitely read the prof's book. The prison thing definitely fell apart for me, though. A lot of wishful thinking. Awesome episode. Glad I found your channel.

[@tonyfubu]

Vincent is looking for us to accept a situation in which the Salem Witch Trials are a viable option, because the community wants them, and the communities obtains security by ridding itself of "witches"... c'mon man

[@therainman7777]

This is just so, so embarrassing. I can barely finish it. I feel sorry for the professor; he seems like a good guy who just genuinely doesn’t realize that _he himself is in a cult._

[@Jopacob]

true believers like him are the most dangerous. I was chilled watching the nonchalant way the cops had their knee in George Floyds back seemingly disengaged to the fact he was actually dying. I get the same feeling from Prof. Vincent Loyde. Quite happy to let everyone out of Jail and the masses of blood from innocence is inevitable. To their family he will say "well we can't be afraid to try stuff, a new way, more moral" And they let this guy lecture at University? Good grief! No wonder we have such a huge percentage of maladjust's and 25 year old infants.

[@teelurizzo8542]

19:54 - A 19 year old counselor giving advice to 17 year olds. That's part of the problem too. In any event a very nice and interesting conversations. Now some notes of astonishment in regards to the first part if I may.... 16:33 - In essence 'Keisha' highjacked the whole camp, going behind Vincent's back whenever he wasn't around and essentially working as sort of ultra woke infiltrator, and ultimately leading a mutiny against Lloyd's Seminar; against the whole objective of the camp...that amounts lack of ethics and total betrayal of hierarchy on he part if you ask me. 23:37 - I wonder why he seems to cave in to most every student demand? Also 'Keisha' threatens to leave if he doesn't present a lecture - when he was not supposed to give one , nor did he feel that was that the best way to approach the Book's discussion. Is that the plan? Their preferred modus operandi and default behavior seems perennial activism confrontational stance where everyone including the professor has to cater to their demands. Essentially strong arming him in the end, I see why he tries to appease them; 'the administration' will side w/ the students and essentially against him, so saying 'no' and putting limits is a no-win situation...If he doesn't comply they accuse him of harm, present a list of grievances, try to cancel him. Madness. Now to the second part. 52:50 - I don't think anyone is 'ignoring' the problems, no one in their right mind will deny that a police brutality exist. Same w/ racial profiling. The problem is how do we deal w/ them? 'Defund the police'? No. The solution lies in 'reform'. Not defunding and abolition of police force and prisons. 'Defund the police' has lead to a major increase in violent crime in many major cities . There's data and numbers showing that.

[@TheCurlyW]

He still believes in this ideology despite having first hand evidence of how horrible it can go.

[@jackdeniston59]

Perfect example. Keisha angry with her mother for shitty childhood, and because we cannot confront Women, esp Mothers, on their appalling evil selfishness, she has to misattribute the pain to........white men.

[@teelurizzo8542]

@@TheCurlyW Yes I can see that. In fact, he doesn't really counter much, if any of Coleman's criticisms or arguments w/ actual evidence or detailed counter arguments, but instead more or less defaults to CRT/Identity politics/woke general 'bullet points', as he does around 1:35:58. And 1:39:34 - 1:41:05, in regards to him being in favor of the abolition of prisons, what he says in that segment is simply beyond me, a mix of naivety and historical ignorance and wishful thinking, justifying letting murders and rapists go free....'The grassroots communities will find a solution'. Hanging, stoning to death, burning at the stake... How is incarceration not a more humane punishment? Also 1:55:20 - 45 : The 'Metrics' according to him are all subjective, if people 'feel' they are safer. No statistics on actual crimes are needed. That is prime woke think.

[@DMHightower]

If Vincent thinks cops aren't trained to de-escalate, he's badly mistaken. As Coleman correctly points out, sometimes de-escalation is impossible. If you want to educate yourself, go on multiple police ride-alongs and see for yourself. Most cops are good at talking to strangers, and most don’t want to get into a violent encounter. There are exceptions.

[@TheCurlyW]

It's literally in their job description. They want to calm people down and keep the peace.

[@michaeltorrisi7289]

I used to date a girl whose parents lived in a very upscale suburb. I had read an article about schools in LA for children who were young enough to still be in school but so violent that they couldn't be in regular schools. The children had desks that were each surrounded by a cage to prevent the students from harming each other. My girlfriend's dad was convinced that letting the children out of the cages would solve all their violence problems - that they were violent because they were treated as threats. It completely ignores that we're talking about serial rapists and serial killers who ended up in a cage because they were violent long before they were caged. At the time, I was shocked that anyone could be that divorced from the experience of the average person that they would believe such a load of horse shit. Now, I understand that there is a significant social stratification in the country and that he was simply an example of what is actually a common belief.

[@SereneBobcat]

I am not surprised that he can't attract woke activist to his show for debate. Their ideas are harmful, but emotionally charge and most of all non-sensical. Once put their ideas under scrutiny they crumble. I've had the pleasure of dismantling their arguments in conversations and the reaction is always as if I peed in their breakfast cereal. When you are in a cult or captive to any ideology, there is nothing more painful than to have it challenged and broken right before you eyes.

[@markstuber4731]

"Rely on ancestors and past practices before there was prison" That involved generational blood feuds and after that, state sponsored execution.

[@iamdanielmonroe]

Coleman’s calm yet clearly perplexed “why?” at 1:52:43 caught me off guard 🤣 You can tell he was trying to have a good faith discussion but some of this guys ideas fall a bit on the looney side lol

[@motameus1]

He's so patient throughout the last half hour of lunacy.. damn, I would've cracked much earlier than he did

[@TubeDude78]

Some? More like all.

[@stephenc9999]

That whole sequence was hilariously terrible for Loyd. How can you be this outspoken and not be able to take your own hypothesis to their logical end?

[@jbrooks75]

This guy is gonna wake up one day and realize he's hurt the black community and not help. Part of dignity and not making excuses for bad apples and being a perpetual victim. His identity and income is locked in wrong think, dignity is admitting you're wrong and starting over. Great job Coleman. I am black.

[@brianmeen2158]

How does he not recognize it already? Youd think common sense would tell him Ideas are faulty to begin with .Tbh I think he’s the type that even after he sees the damage his policies have done - he’d just say that we didn’t implement his policies correctly.

[@user-nk6oj1lv8m]

Coleman does a masterful job as usual, people like Lloyd already have their conclusions drawing and reason with their emotions and not their critical faculties

[@safetythirdified]

Coleman, you should do a master class on calm argument. Not because of this episode, but the ability to formulate arguments void of dramatics would seem boring, but is exactly what draws me in.

[@eightpoint58]

Family of victims are far more punitive to those who harm their loved ones. Families of criminals are likely to excuse their crimes even if they would be harsh at home.

[@TorBarstad]

When striving for a better world, we need to combine positive intentions and staying sufficiently in touch with reality. And when it comes to policing, I feel as if Lloyd only succeeds at the former, while Coleman succeeds at both. But Lloyd seems likable and well-intentioned, and first and foremost I want to give him kudos for participating :)

[@sarahmcbeth9156]

Coleman: you obviously record in two audio channels. Mute your sniffings.

[@scottsherman5262]

This is a pet peeve of mine...& I see my own kids doing this, which is the origin of my peeve. Most young people these days are AV experts...it's just a sign of the times, & it's turning a good chunk of them into AV snobs. I don't mean that as an overt pejorative, more of a playful jab...in my mind, I'm just so happy to have the KZbins/Interwebs at all. I'm 47, & literally had 5 channels for my entire childhood. I had a B&W TV until I was 25. We had to deal with rabbit ears. Rabbit ears were shaped antenna that one could purchase at a Radio Shack. Radio Shack was....never mind, I get it...I'm old, ya ya, but I'm not an entitled AV snob. That last bit lost the playfulness, I'm sorry. I like the sniffings, it humanizes him...and saying "you obviously record in two audio channels" screams you wanting him & whoever reads your comment to think that you're supper learned in the ways of podcasting, then you end with a command. No flowery language to soften the blow, just a command to mute your sniffings. No. I say no.

[@solarnaut]

Sarah, since you are apparently the boss of Coleman, why don't you just use one of those old fashioned yellow post-it notes, and place your directive on it at his editing desk ? There's no need to flex your authority over him in this public comment channel. B-)

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@scottsherman5262 - I object to your objection. Sarah just as well might mean it in a playfully stern way. Or just in a blunt manner as concise feedback. It helps improve Coleman's show. Knock off the sniffling. "Flowery language"? LoL. Constructive Feedback by Sarah FTW. Yes. I say, "Yes".

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@solarnaut - "Flex your authority". Haha! Put that on a bumper sticker and sell it to the Woke. You might make millions. Then again they will want Equity in Distributions. Be prepared to make a lot less against your will.

[@ianl5882]

I kind of enjoyed it. More than sniffling what I heard was deep breathing and sighs, which seemed to correspond to some of the low moments of Professor Lloyd’s explanations.

[@adrianl7147]

I'm so grateful that I have discovered a book (and author) I need not read. Coleman has the patience of a saint

[@brek5]

The craziest thing about all of this is the admin response. I taught, ages ago, at a university in the US, and my case was nothing to do with race, but let's say it was a very intense program, and I had students yelling at me because they (erroneously) disagreed with the teaching methods (which were decided upon by the school and not by me, although I thought they were best practice), and I told the students to take their grievance up with admin. I knew I'd have full support, and I did. (It was an elite school and very much like you make it, or if you can't hack it, go somewhere else.) Now, it seems like they just cave to the whims of any student.

[@bxmuscle6757]

I just finished listening to this episode of Coleman's conversation with Mr. Lloyd. Colman opened it by saying that Mr. Lloyd is one of the very few people with whom he had disagreements who agreed to debate with him. I now understand why. Mr. Lloyd is an intelligent, thoughtful person but Coleman really gives him a run for his money, challenging Mr. Lloyd with powerful, factually based arguments and evidence. It's no wonder that figures like Ibram X. Kendi would avoid such a conversation at all costs.

[@gagillion]

Agree, but im still perplexed at why he would avoid it? If his positions are strong (and many would support that they are), then why won't he?

[@TomPerkinsCountry]

Also…. GREAT podcast. And, good on the professor. Most in academia with views like his would NEVER subject themselves to this scrutiny, as they prefer to mold the minds of students seeking a “cause” in the privacy of their institution

[@ulose2piranha]

Vincent: Makes bold and wildly impractical claim Coleman: Points out problems in claim Vincent: "Thanks for that really valid question. Um, yeah, so I'm not a policy maker. We just need to open up to some conversations." Yes, sir... that's what you're doing. This is the conversation. Right now... you're having the conversation. If you don't want people in cages, what is the solution for really violent people? If you don't want police being run by the state, who is supposed to be in charge? If you're calling for radical, global changes on a bunch of policies, you better have at least some fucking idea of what comes next. I don't necessarily disagree with his diagnosis of certain issues, but I think completely destructuralizing many pillars of our society without having some sort of concept how those roles should be replaced is nutty.

[@niceprofile-k6i]

I appreciate the professor coming on to your program. I think he represented himself well. I also really like when you bring on people who disagree, Coleman!

[@TheNextFreud]

I think he went with the "plural of so-so anecdotal evidence adds up to a strong case" argument. It's very common in religious people's epistemology as well.

[@MrValentineMusic]

I'm just content this discourse is happening with such prevalence; premise conclusions premise conclusions. Luv it

[@stevenborncamp6675]

2:03:35 …”yeah… they have chemicals to sedate you…”…. It took the guest 30 seconds to get the spin restarted.

[@dkennell998]

"I mean yeah thats certainly a real worry and there are definitely concerns about the myriad of ways it can go and theres a lot of factors regarding all sorts of possible outcomes including all sorts of potential ways of addressing those possible factors amd we can imagine a host of various possibilities with regards to the plausible outcomes which have actually been addressed before on many different occasions and there are opportunities to explore and experiment with the different approaches that can be taken in a way that" Jeeeeeeeeesus. This guy and straight answers are oil and water.

[@chriszel695]

I appreciate his efforts to be civil. Most people with his views are angry and accusatory toward the rest of us. He’s as wrong as he can possibly be, but respectful to Coleman. I also bet he’s never had anything stolen much less been assaulted or had a loved one killed. He missed a good chance to be gay too.

[@steveonkeys]

I agree that it was great that Vincent was willing to engage here. He’s clearly living in a fantasy world, though. I wonder what he’d think if someone he or someone he loved was the victim of senseless violence. Would he really support a psychopath being allowed to live next door to him? Kinda doubt it. It all sounds great until someone punches you in the mouth.

[@andreprice9234]

Have you read the introduction to Dr. Lloyds dignity book? It may speak to your wondering about what he’d think if he were harmed.

[@yazzyyazyaz]

​@@andreprice9234nobody should subject themselves to that level of nonsense

[@andreprice9234]

@@yazzyyazyaz It’s cool if intellectual curiosity or rigor isn’t your thing. But Lloyd tells some personal stories that get at his thoughts about the hypothetical question above. Instead of making assumptions about what is/isn’t nonsense you can go straight to the source.

[@steveonkeys]

@@andreprice9234 I went and read the intro to that book but not sure I got the context you suggested. Certainly possible I missed it. Can you suggest a particular section? I am genuinely curious how an intelligent, thoughtful person could suggest something that, at least to me, seems preposterous. There are a lot of very scary people in prison who should not be walking freely among us. No?

[@r3771-n2r]

Vincent simply never refutes a single point Coleman makes. He just skips to a new argument then Coleman refutes that argument and so on.

[@rajahalwani8995]

I found his answers evasive and many employ false dilemmas, e.g., prisons or no prisons.

[@lorileifer613]

Coleman, how did you say “I don’t get an aggressive vibe from you” with a straight face?? 😂 This guy seems like one of the most gentle souls on planet earth, lol... Idk whether to laugh or cry.

[@TheCurlyW]

His demenour is betray by his vision where people would inevitably be hurt.

[@carolblume5073]

Ikr. I feel sorry for him. He's the absent-minded professor. And a group of aggressive students with an insubordinate TA ruined it for everybody else.

[@playnejayne5550]

The assistant and the students sensed vulnerability in Professor Lloyd. Keisha may have deeper problems but, in this context, she grasped power by disrespecting and dominating him. Typical of bullies, she was uninterested in going one-on-one with Lloyd.

[@fromireland8663]

Keisha should have got the boot! Telluride fail.

[@danepaulstewart8464]

WOW. Mr. Hughes’ intellect is extremely impressive. It’s piercing yet encompassing. The good professor seems indeed to be a nice and well intentioned man, but over and over and over again, his positions were taken apart in a calm and reasoned manner, yet also a devastating manner. This rendered him woefully unprepared to really defend them beyond the first introductory volley of basic and/or surface level information.

[@russelld2925]

Victim - My 6 year old daughter was raped and murdered by a serial killer. I demand justice. Vincent- Let’s name that harm and come together as a community to create a path forward. This level of callous disregard for justice is obscene. His reductive conclusion that cages are bad dramatically increase the suffering in our society.

[@colinreese]

It was amazing hearing Coleman try to contain his rage the whole episode by inhaling through his nose.

[@natashaburke1533]

I think that was poor sound setup but also he did well to contain himself.

[@brianmeen2158]

I think Coleman is as equally as baffled by Vince’s belief system as most of us are

[@diranshouse7061]

😂😂😂😂. I laughed so hard hearing it.

[@birtaudabraham5943]

I thought I was the only one who noticed it. LOL!!!

[@jackspecs5389]

Oh man… a question for any other engineers in the crowd. So I always thought that to obtain a BA from Princeton, and especially a Phd from anywhere requires having great depth of analysis in thought. Not to toot the horn here but I have a degree from a university that’s pretty darn good and am finishing my masters in aeronautical engineering in the next month. What I’d expect from a scientist/engineer/ thinker when Lloyd makes claims about not needing prisons, the massive effects of anti-black racism etc. is to see some studies! The first thing I’d ask might be: ok are there communities who’ve tried not reprimanding people for crimes, what are they like? How big are those communities, are they small enough where everyone can personally know each other? How successful have they been? Is there a way to predictably translate that success to other/ larger populations? What we got was just kinda “well, it’s complicated and grassroots communities…” the depth of analysis, amount of evidence and precision needed for proving my thesis, and most of my scholarly endeavors has been monumental compared to what this guy puts forth. All this is to ask are there any other engineers who have interacted with sociology PhD’s and if so how rigorous is their thought process/ dissertation defense? I hate to be that guy, but the lack of thought and evidence Lloyd puts forth actually disgusts me for someone holding a doctorate degree. Am I just completely missing the boat here?

[@PlasticMachines]

Anti native-american racism has been at least as strong as anti-black racism historically. It seems like this is always overlooked in the modern conversation. America's original sin was not slavery. Slavery was common everywhere in the 1700s. The original sin was killing off those who already lived here.

[@WhizzingFish12]

100%. I've long said that the mistreatment of blacks is second to the mistreatment of Native Americans. But as a gentle reminder, such crushing of a weaker and less advanced proximal group has occurred throughout human history and all over the world. The Americans were in no way unusual in this way.

[@Clem62]

Agreed as in Canada. If any people should get reparations it's the indigenous population. These people should all be millionaires considering how the land they lived on has produced so much money for the governments as they have. Resourses, oil, pipelines etc.

[@ams914]

Which was also common everywhere. There is literally nothing unique in the founding of American history. Killing the inhabitants of whatever land you conquer, slavery, etc, was the way of doing business. Believing otherwise, I am convinced is motivated by guilt. Guilty of the inheritance that is American citizenship. All our gains must be ill-gotten. I'm bored of that, frankly.

[@ams914]

@@Clem62 Canada was way worse, apparently, in the treatment of the indigenous. I'd say it's not a competition, but it really is, these days, isn't it?

[@havesomemilk4336]

No one owes reparations to anyone. We are enjoying the fruits of labor of American generations past who built an amazing economic and communications system which is the best avenue to build wealth for anyone!! To this day one can go from rags to riches by sheer determination. You can network and find all manner of help from others. No one is discriminated against. If you choose to separate yourself from the best system in the world you have no one to blame for your woes than yourself.

[@philipmason5547]

Another great interview. A small clap for Vincent for being one of the only people to take up the challenge. Another clap for being open to a difference of opinion and for being able to have a civil back and forth. And a final point for maintaining his composure as Coleman’s teeth came out. Coleman’s scrutiny revealed the generally obtuse, clueless, uninformed, and ignorant reflexes that compose most of the identity politics fad. It becomes clear in this discussion who has and who has not thought clearly about the topic. Would be great to see one of the more famous figures leave their cowardice at the door and come on his show, since it almost hurt to watch this agreeable and well-meaning gentleman’s position get turned so completely inside out.

[@Sam-kp7ti]

How can you not love a conversation like this? It is so constructive, and actually brings the ides of race to the marketplace to be discussed freely, unlike the many who want to stay in their silo to protect their propaganda

[@wmlanza]

Enjoyed the back and forth. Mr. Lloyd has some good insights. I would have liked to see Coleman push back more, especially when Mr. Lloyd’s response doesn’t really answer the question but more or less answered with vagueries.

[@brianmeen2158]

I think Coleman was being kind - he wants to treat the guest well and not try to “bully” him or play the gotcha game . More discussions need to be like this

[@jeeed6390]

At 20:20. Confused. Are you telling me people signed up for a course and chose not to do the prescribed readings? Am I missing something? Also I would love to experience a play-by-play timeline of what occurred; possibly a book. Despite the prof’s excellent description there’s still too much left unsaid.

[@dmr6390]

This guy you interviewed literally said nothing of any substance. I’m astounded of how ignorant he is of history and human nature

[@briedirks5794]

I would argue that Tony Timpas death was much worse. He was ridiculed and scorned, laughed at while dying. Whereas the officers in Floyd’s case had to deal with crowd control and new officer trainees all while being a bad part of town.

[@TubeDude78]

Many of Prof Lloyd's positions were utterly without substance, but being that he couched them in so much academese and dissembling it was sometimes hard to see that. But I think his position on prison abolition exposed very clearly just how hollow his viewpoints are. Once you get past the catchy slogan, he has nothing to offer that is in any way based in reality. Even his position that "putting people in cages is a moral failure" is so disingenuous about what we're talking about. Murderers and rapists and criminals have harmed people! They've destroyed families and wreaked untold damage on society. Isn't that also a moral failure!? His naïve utopian vision that would allow for more innocent people to be hurt by violent people is a far worse moral failure. Even if it were true that putting such people in cages is a moral failing (highly debatable), by doing that we are choosing the far lesser evil option of two moral failings.