Debating Race and Incarceration with Vincent Lloyd

[@ColemanHughesOfficial]

Pre-order my book: "The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America" - bit.ly/48VUw17

[@anyakirby2014]

A huge thank you to Vincent for speaking with dignity, smile and respect towards his opponent; which is not the case when it comes to people of his views. A great thank you to Colman for highly intelligent questions and deeply thought through arguments of his case.

[@therainman7777]

@whos afraid of ennio morricone The truth is always a great look.

[@willpower3317]

@@doppelclausell said. Get off the internet, people. Most on the political left are reasonable enough in real life.

[@kcsantos6634]

I am envious of Mr Lloyd’s privilege, optimism and naïveté… Bless his heart!!! As always Coleman is a intelligent, considered and patient guest.

[@brianmeen2158]

I listened to Lloyd on Lourys podcast and he lives in a much different reality than I do

[@brek5]

Can he say "spaces" one more time? I would appreciate it. I love that word, lol.

[@kcsantos6634]

@@brianmeen2158 Just listened to that episode and I could feel the cynicism from both Glenn and John.

[@LeviNotik]

Coleman is the host, not the guest 😉

[@limop20]

@@brianmeen2158 than the vast majority of citizens do

[@TheGroceryman2]

it's frightening how a professor cannot come up with any objective metrics that test whether his hypothesis would be incorrect or wrong or lead to worse outcomes. he's a true believer that will always think failure of his experiments are evidence of not enough injection of the experiment.

[@jerrymorrow5209]

I thought the same. I don't think he would win a debate against a high schooler.

[@MethodFitness]

And his apparent indifference to who would bear the costs of his "experiments." Invariably it's the most vulnerable in society who have to suffer when out of touch elites practice their luxury beliefs (ht, Rob Henderson).

[@johnnyfive9815]

You just described progressive policies

[@brett6869]

@@MethodFitness One can know a priori that certain chemical reactions will or will not happen given the chemicals, the conditions and the presence (or absence) of catalysts. This guy can't do any causal thinking. He is just like Kendi; they are alchemists, not chemists. This guy is clearly a diversity hire and the professorship is a mask for the vacuum beneath.

[@realMaverickBuckley]

And this is a guy who has experienced first hand the Woke Mind Virus. If you can lose a classroom to, essentially, a student and STILL believe all the woke 'Oh woe is me' race victim BS... Jesus.. all I can say is good luck America. You've got California decriminalised p3dophilia, and then academia being taken.over by single race vultures.. yikes.

[@georgsyphers1437]

Coleman, every argument you articulate is well thought out, inclusive, incisive, and delivered with great patience. I applaud you for inviting debate with someone whose point of view is radically divorced from yours, and Vincent for engaging in it as well, even if I disagree with a wild amount of the ideology over reason driven self-centric thinking Vincent engages in, especially his insanity of no prisons, but I am deeply impressed by his willingness to engsge with both you and Loury & McWhorter, it shows an openness to something other than strict ideologies purity which is currently unusual among progressives.

[@sofvines3940]

Yes....although I feel it may be easy for the good professor to come talk to Coleman and Glen because he manages to distort and not really answer almost every question 😅

[@mrgeorgejetson]

Coleman really has the patience of a saint. The guy is unflappable. What a piece of work this Lloyd person is. Just amazing.

[@sofvines3940]

I was thinking that same thing. Do you suppose Colemans deep sighs is him channeling his frustration? 😅

[@mrgeorgejetson]

@@sofvines3940 I definitely do, yes. I'm sitting here at home and still finding it very difficult not to roll my eyes at his guest. The guy's a rock.

[@sofvines3940]

@@mrgeorgejetson 🤣100!

[@JoshYenne]

I agree if you ever find it frustrating that Coleman never pins someone down and ask for a follow up question when the person obfuscate and dances around actually answering it or defending a point. That’s my only disappointment. It is frustrating because it doesn’t feel like a real debate because it always stays so friendly.

[@JoshYenne]

Oh, OK. At least the very last part Coleman does this yes!

[@stonecoldscubasteveo4827]

"I'm not a policy person."-- What you say when anyone confronts you with the potential harms of your batshit crazy positions.

[@ulose2piranha]

Exactly. To me, there's a certain level of hypocrisy there. Abolishing prisons IS a policy position. Refusing to have any sort of holding system for people actively harming others IS a policy position. When the obvious problems with your policy position are immediately pointed out, it's not reasonable to hide behind this claim of not being a policy person. You don't have to have all the kinks figured out, but simply refusing to offer anything more than "Cages are immoral" is a cop out.

[@roadventer]

He's not a policy person, but he has policy suggestions, like to empty the prisons. "Wouldn't that be a problematic policy?" "I'm not a policy person."

[@dtgris7291]

“I’m not a policy person” well, saying “abolish prisons” IS a policy. Also I damn near lost it when he said “we should look to the wisdom of the past” with respect to justice without prisons. Oh, the same past in which slavery was universal and sometimes used in lieu of prisons? SMDH 😂

[@shamshiadad9878]

Coleman is easily one of the most objective thinkers when it comes to topic of race. He really knows his stuff when it comes to policing and race, and he gives great counter arguments to this guest.

[@50footroman56]

Vincent Lloyd never even paused for a minute to consider how his entire world view is based on the a priori assumption that "systemic racism" is real. Coleman gave him many contradictory scenarios which Vincent effectively brushed off with "yea, but slavery". Even though Coleman warned against the fallacy of disparities, Vincent goes on to make them, "yea but red lining, yea but incarceration". Most revealing of all is at the end when Vincent says, with a straight face, that the police and prisons should be abolished, world wide, and all prisoners should be dumped out into society, even murderers. Unbelievable. He is being led to this asinine conclusion because of his a priori assumption that "systemic racism" is real, so in his mind he thinks ANY thing is better than what we have, because what we have is a matrix of racism. That's a conspiratorial cult-like world view. This man lives in a fantasy world based on his own intuitions. How do adults hold careers based on influencing kids with such world views? The amount of times Vincent was asked why he holds a specific view (after that view was contradicted) for him to defer to various other views as proof of some sort of mountain of evidence was ridiculous. It's like asking a a religious person how they can still believe their religion is true, after you debunk their favourite passage, and they thumb through their holy book and say, "well, just look at all this other evidence". I think I agree with John McWhorter, I don't think someone like Vincent can be convinced that he's in the wrong because he holds religious beliefs.

[@ianl5882]

Thank you! You nailed it!

[@andyn647]

Well said

[@liamwinter4512]

This is a perfect example of a African Ivory Tower.

[@illuminahde]

James Lindsay classification of the religious nature of the woke belief system might interest you. As an atheist, I've often felt as if I was talking to a flat earth creationist when talking about issues of race. Lindsay makes the argument that while unknowingly doing so, the woke ideology is derived from Gnosticism and Hermeticism. I know it's an odd comparison at first glance but I implore you guys too give a listen. James' channel is New Discourses btw. Honestly, it really helped put things in perspective for me.

[@Jopacob]

The guest knows all to well that rejection or examination of the underlying theory (which means an unproven idea, not a cannon of thinking) means his paycheck will be lost. Captured and bought. The sad fact is many "intellectuals" have sold their capacity and potential to the paycheck.

[@MethodFitness]

And this is why wokesters don't come on Hughes' show. Because they almost immediately are revealed to be comically intellectually underpowered. And I'm sorry to have to put it that way--Professor Lloyd is clearly an earnest, intelligent, thoughtful person, I was glad to hear what he had to say--but like so many others he's captured by an ideology that's incapable of survival outside of a carefully circumscribed bubble. The power of this ideological capture made all the more poignant by his having been savaged by it and yet still unable to see it from any remove.

[@ianl5882]

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. You save me the trouble of organizing, my thoughts, as you just did ;-) truly, though… You nailed it.

[@MethodFitness]

@@ianl5882 🙏🏼

[@TubeDude78]

Very well put.

[@realMaverickBuckley]

Indeed. America and some other Western nations are on the precipice of something terrible if they don't stop this race grifting woke nonsense. So 80% of their time was going to be towards racism against a race that makes up 11% of the country? Nothing for Hispanics, nothing for South Asian , nothing for east Asian, 20% for a race that makes up less than 1% of the nation and nothing about racism that seems to be the only racism that's not only NOT addressed its encouraged. Great balanced plan there. And to think they wanted 100% of the time on racism against only 1 of the 5 main races in the US. God help you guys over there.

[@therainman7777]

Damn man.. you are an excellent writer. That was beautiful and eloquently put. And true.

[@HAMETE]

Unbelievable for a university professor to witness how some activists hijack his course and he can't help it and at the same time believe that a society without authority can prosper. Incredible

[@hudsonharing9484]

I was starting to understand why Kinshasa hijacked his class by the end of the podcast. Just hearing him say well we need to experiment and figure it out but I'm not a policy guy 500 times was maddening

[@Sam-kp7ti]

Even while I disagree with Vincent on much of what he says, I really respect his willingness to actually discuss the important topic of race in America, to allow ideas to be shaped into better working pieces, which we need!!!!

[@sofvines3940]

How can you claim not being a "policy person" as a reason to not offer a viable solution, while at the same time feeling qualified to criticize policies?

[@tatpole99]

A less judicious person would say "Coleman Hughes crushes anti-rascist professor." There was definitely a substantial intellectual imbalance, although I'm glad the conversation happened.

[@trollingisasport]

Colemon was Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. The other guy was Jar Jar Binks.

[@diranshouse7061]

One is a college graduate a d the other is a Professor 😢

[@colinreese]

Coleman told him his perception of police only killing black people was wrong and why, and Vincent just ignored what he said.

[@brianmeen2158]

I’ve learned it is pointless to discuss police violence and other issues with the woke left. They simply cannot register reality like we do. You could show them tons of data that completely deflate their narrative and it won’t matter to them.

[@TubeDude78]

Not just that, he ignored basically everything Coleman said through the entire conversation. Just endless dissembling.

[@holidaytrout5174]

I don't think this guy has ever been challenged on these ideas so this is good for him

[@cks8082]

Most people don’t have the guts that Coleman has. I’ll go as far to say that Vincent has some White Guilt going on. Can you imagine Vincent having a hot take on something….his career would be over. Even when he talks about what happened to him during the seminar he’s treading lightly. I feel bad for these professors. Thanks for the convo gentlemen.

[@craig4320]

I hope that this episode will inspire others who disagree with Colman to come on his show. There is value in having open and respectful disagreement like this. I enjoy seeing people defending their view of truth. I want to see people come to agree on the actual facts of reality. I would struggle to maintain my attention on a two hour conversation with no disagreement and little chance of seeing anyone consider how to improve their view.

[@diranshouse7061]

Sadly, it will do the opposite. Even though Coleman was very respectful. The professor sounds like a child compared to Coleman. I doubt this is an endorsement for those on the college left. They are so far gone.

[@spifflord308]

Coleman: makes a beautifully elegant point Vinny: thank you.

[@limop20]

😂 - maybe that is what you call a polite „out of touch with reality“ ideologist

[@scottparker9500]

The problem with these prison abolitionist types is that even if they do spend any amount of time around incarcerated people, they are easily manipulated by their stories of how they are the real victims and how unfair everything is for them. I worked in corrections for 20 years and have seen the manipulation up close. Coleman absolutely nailed it when he talked about how a certain percentage is reformable and a percentage is irredeemable. There was a prisoner I worked with who injured his own leg so he would be transported out for X-rays at the hospital. When his restraints were removed, he disarmed and murdered the officer and fled. He was quickly captured and transferred to my facility where he spend the next few years complaining about everything and to the point where the administration had a special grievance process tailored to him. Not particularly relevant to his major crimes, but his face was also literally covered with prison gang white supremacy tattoos. Where would this professor have an individual like this reside (besides a cage or coffin)? I’m genuinely curious…

[@brianmeen2158]

Vince probably doesn’t have an answer to where the released criminals should live. I have to imagine he’d want them far away from him and his family though . He seems to think that with town meetings and counseling that hardened criminals can be fixed. I disagree with him completely

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@brianmeen2158I’m a former barrister (trial lawyer), and you are absolutely right. Criminals lie about everything, even when the truth would help them.

[@jojolina7]

At mental hospitals if someone is out of control, they are physically restrained, placed in mechanical restraints on a bed and then chemically sedated. There is no magic to that.

[@roadventer]

When Lloyd said there are lots of "mental health professionals" who deal with these issues every day, he was correct. But he doesn't seem to know or acknowledge that in many cases, there is no _effective_ treatment beyond their ability to restrain the subject, physically or chemically. He also doesn't seem to know anything about what those "mental health professionals" do, including the fact that most of the people providing care are not "professionals" in any academic sense. (Not that that makes any difference; the professionals are almost as powerless to cure psychosis as anybody else.)

[@aaronjohnson6261]

It’s amazing how little a professor of race studies has thought through his positions.

[@brianmeen2158]

It is shocking to me! It’s very obvious he’s not only never had his ideas challenged but he seems to have never heard people on the other sides viewpoints . You’d think he’d be the one that has had his ideas challenged the most but nope

[@cyberft]

@@brianmeen2158 it shouldn’t be surprising at all. He “studies” a field that doesn’t touch reality so any answer will do.

[@jessesewell7922]

“It’s not that Johnny can’t think. He doesn’t know what thinking is. He confuses it with feeling.” The Dr Thomas Sowell

[@oladeebiazazi4538]

@@jessesewell7922I don’t know why y’all love Thomas Sowell so much

[@vagabond197979]

Shows which side thinks with logic versus feelings.

[@davidleicht6302]

I’m astonished by the professor’s vagueness and the inability to meaningfully address Coleman’s arguments. He repeatedly said he isn’t a policy guy yet was recommending radical changes for not just America but the world as a whole. If he’s genuinely confident in his beliefs on these complex issues, he needs to clearly articulate them to at least give us an idea of his vision for society.

[@saracappello6805]

Professor Lloyd is a master of the word salad.

[@nirvanachile24]

A close second to Michael Eric Dyson

[@AlteraLin]

@@nirvanachile24 No one can beat MED at using the most syllables to say the least.

[@cattenborrow]

With croutons 😂

[@EBurstyn]

Lloyd completely lost me at letting the local communities decide what to do with murderers. Infinite horrible trajectories for letting small groups decide on their own laws and practices. Basically the wild west for cults.

[@roadventer]

If "local community" handling of crime is to be anything but vigilantism, it will have to have strict rules and protections for the accused as well as the community. We'd call those rules "laws." And as he proposes shutting down the State's criminal justice system, he offers no critique of, or alternative to, the existing laws. His is a perfect combination of blind unbridled optimism and "Burn it all down."

[@lonemoderate9471]

Man I feel bad for Dr. Lloyd. He got kicked around by his students in his seminar and then Coleman outclasses him in a debate. Kudos to Dr. Lloyd for discussing these issues though, we need more conversations like this. Also, no wonder Ibram X Kendi doesn't want to debate Coleman... Kendi has a lot to lose from an open debate if he brings the same arguments to the table as Dr Lloyd does. At this point I think Kendi is ducking Coleman like Floyd Mayweather Jr. was ducking prime Pacquiao.

[@Michael-cb5nm]

The professor is a gentleman and comes to his beliefs sincerely. I give him credit for coming on and allowing his beliefs to come under scrutiny.

[@TheSpinoza43221]

If Coleman had trouble finding people to debate on the left before this, I can only imagine his luck finding them after this will be even worse. Thanks for the great content.

[@vickils9571]

As someone who worked in a psychiatric hospital, when a patient becomes violent there is an all-staff code called, if de-escalation attempts fail then a patient take-down is warranted. followed by restraints, and sedation. A take-down usually involves multiple people. If staff is not able to contain the patient, the police are called.

[@mariuspettersen-no]

And we should not forget that those departments are safe in regards to items that can be used to harm others. Mental health professionals being called for a domestic disturbance could face weapons and misc blunt objects.

[@hamm0155]

Thank you for offering this

[@lonesomelooch5661]

Toxic empathy. His need to bend over backwards for his students is hurting them. Having said that, kudos to Mr. Lloyd for engaging. We need more conversations like this.

[@ianl5882]

Toxic empathy - I like that idea. You got me thinking…

[@killa3x]

Good term

[@williambarlow4632]

Pathologic/toxic empathy has over come this man. Letting the children dictate the rules will only lead to a Lord of the Flies situation. A firm hand would have given much better results.

[@ColemanHughesOfficial]

Thanks for watching my latest episode. Let me know your thoughts and opinions down below in a comment. If you like my content and want to support me, consider becoming a paying member of the Coleman Unfiltered Community here --> bit.ly/3B1GAlS

[@illuminahde]

Have you heard the direction James Lindsay has been going lately when discussing the modem progressives' religious adherence to these topics? James has related their philosophy to that of Gnosticism and Hermeticism. While most are likely unaware this is where their ideals are rooted, they nevertheless continue to follow the same path. It's an idea I think you'll find intriguing. Take it easy homie. ✌️

[@rmv4646]

Amazing conversation. Thank you for the great discussion

[@garyjohnson8327]

Is somebody keeping you from talking about Native Americans? Is Prof. Lloyd unaware of their existence?

[@Lilies_Inc]

Always interesting!

[@gg_rider]

I wanted to, in the middle, criticize both Coleman and Prof Vincent but Coleman both pushed through and held back .. effectively I think. In 2012, Trayvon Martin got in a fight with (launched an attack on) George Zimmerman, and was ultimately shot and died. (Zimmerman was a Democrat activist and had a prior history of anti-racist actions, launching defense of a black homeless man homeboys sucker punched by a white frat boy son of a city official.) BLM was launched or came to prominence in 2012. The number of black murders that year was 2600. Since that beginning of Marxist woke influence on policing the Black community, annual murders steadily risen hitting 8000 in 2019, 10000 in 2021, and 14000 in 2022. Leftists like Vincent do not care.

[@anonymouscrow5849]

I just started this podcast, but THANK YOU BOTH for HAVING CONVERSATIONS. We need this so much.

[@sofvines3940]

How did you feel at the end. 😅 I was tremendously frustrated by the professors dodging nearly every one of Coleman's points

[@PavelHenkin]

What an incredibly polite way to not engage with reality..

[@therainman7777]

😂

[@tfustudios]

It's a great respectful discussion as usual Coleman, and as Vincent is eloquent in his responses, I find them a chilling example of the odd delusional bubble that academia has become.

[@TriteNight1218]

They are completely detached from reality.

[@brek5]

The idea that indigenous people have no prisons is absurd. I've been to them, haha, in both Africa and Asia, and the past? Coleman's response was spot on. God, this guy lives in a dream world (although I'm not arguing against prison reform in the West and the US specifically).

[@tfustudios]

@@brek5 I wonder how he'd treat white collar crime, or tax evasion!

[@nancy6487]

At 29:56 I laughed out loud at your brilliant & witty description of what happens when “no one is in charge “!!! 84 y/o woman immigrant here to the most wonderful country to live in, where millions have found a safe haven here. I didn’t say’Perfect country’ - but the best there is to raise a family…. Coleman you are doing a wonderful fabulous job!!! Again thank you !!

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I respect Vincent Lloyd for his dedication to open discussion. He also discussed his experience with Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on the Glenn Show. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aamYp36EaL-Beq8

[@georgiemerry8929]

Love the Glenn show

[@DMHightower]

Mr. Lloyd should take a look at the extreme spikes of violent crime in New York since they have stopped putting bail on people get arrested. There are people that are getting arrested several days in a row for robbery, which is a very serious and violent crime, but they can't be held in jail and so they go out and do it again.

[@iamdanielmonroe]

Coleman’s calm yet clearly perplexed “why?” at 1:52:43 caught me off guard 🤣 You can tell he was trying to have a good faith discussion but some of this guys ideas fall a bit on the looney side lol

[@motameus1]

He's so patient throughout the last half hour of lunacy.. damn, I would've cracked much earlier than he did

[@TubeDude78]

Some? More like all.

[@stephenc9999]

That whole sequence was hilariously terrible for Loyd. How can you be this outspoken and not be able to take your own hypothesis to their logical end?

[@eric1138]

I think this is what Thomas Sowell might have meant about some intellectuals not being accountable for their ideas. .

[@kham6006]

Agreed

[@stevecaststringtheory8691]

Vincent seems like a nice person who has been brainwashed into a way of circular thinking. Credit to him for coming on for the conversation, even though he was evasive with his answers and sometimes nonsensical, I got the impression that he legitimately listened to Coleman (even if the message never truly penetrated) and he never devolved into shouting or name calling or any of the other tropes that likeminded people have followed. His views on prison were exasperating. I saw him speak with Glenn Loury and John McWhorter not long ago, hopefully he will have enough conversations with people who disagree with him and some daylight will get through.

[@SereneBobcat]

I am not surprised that he can't attract woke activist to his show for debate. Their ideas are harmful, but emotionally charge and most of all non-sensical. Once put their ideas under scrutiny they crumble. I've had the pleasure of dismantling their arguments in conversations and the reaction is always as if I peed in their breakfast cereal. When you are in a cult or captive to any ideology, there is nothing more painful than to have it challenged and broken right before you eyes.

[@asisiphoguga195]

I don’t know if I am evil, but I am always happy when a woke person receives backlash from other woke people. He deserved everything he received from the Keisha person.

[@steveonkeys]

I agree that it was great that Vincent was willing to engage here. He’s clearly living in a fantasy world, though. I wonder what he’d think if someone he or someone he loved was the victim of senseless violence. Would he really support a psychopath being allowed to live next door to him? Kinda doubt it. It all sounds great until someone punches you in the mouth.

[@andreprice9234]

Have you read the introduction to Dr. Lloyds dignity book? It may speak to your wondering about what he’d think if he were harmed.

[@yazzyyazyaz]

​@@andreprice9234nobody should subject themselves to that level of nonsense

[@andreprice9234]

@@yazzyyazyaz It’s cool if intellectual curiosity or rigor isn’t your thing. But Lloyd tells some personal stories that get at his thoughts about the hypothetical question above. Instead of making assumptions about what is/isn’t nonsense you can go straight to the source.

[@steveonkeys]

@@andreprice9234 I went and read the intro to that book but not sure I got the context you suggested. Certainly possible I missed it. Can you suggest a particular section? I am genuinely curious how an intelligent, thoughtful person could suggest something that, at least to me, seems preposterous. There are a lot of very scary people in prison who should not be walking freely among us. No?

[@JonathanRossRogers]

1:50:45 Coleman is describing exactly what happened to Lloyd in the class he was supposed to be teaching. Administrators were unable or unwilling to stand up against the tyrant Keisha.

[@user-nk6oj1lv8m]

Coleman does a masterful job as usual, people like Lloyd already have their conclusions drawing and reason with their emotions and not their critical faculties

[@markstuber4731]

"Rely on ancestors and past practices before there was prison" That involved generational blood feuds and after that, state sponsored execution.

[@sarahmcbeth9156]

Coleman: you obviously record in two audio channels. Mute your sniffings.

[@scottsherman5262]

This is a pet peeve of mine...& I see my own kids doing this, which is the origin of my peeve. Most young people these days are AV experts...it's just a sign of the times, & it's turning a good chunk of them into AV snobs. I don't mean that as an overt pejorative, more of a playful jab...in my mind, I'm just so happy to have the KZbins/Interwebs at all. I'm 47, & literally had 5 channels for my entire childhood. I had a B&W TV until I was 25. We had to deal with rabbit ears. Rabbit ears were shaped antenna that one could purchase at a Radio Shack. Radio Shack was....never mind, I get it...I'm old, ya ya, but I'm not an entitled AV snob. That last bit lost the playfulness, I'm sorry. I like the sniffings, it humanizes him...and saying "you obviously record in two audio channels" screams you wanting him & whoever reads your comment to think that you're supper learned in the ways of podcasting, then you end with a command. No flowery language to soften the blow, just a command to mute your sniffings. No. I say no.

[@solarnaut]

Sarah, since you are apparently the boss of Coleman, why don't you just use one of those old fashioned yellow post-it notes, and place your directive on it at his editing desk ? There's no need to flex your authority over him in this public comment channel. B-)

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@scottsherman5262 - I object to your objection. Sarah just as well might mean it in a playfully stern way. Or just in a blunt manner as concise feedback. It helps improve Coleman's show. Knock off the sniffling. "Flowery language"? LoL. Constructive Feedback by Sarah FTW. Yes. I say, "Yes".

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@solarnaut - "Flex your authority". Haha! Put that on a bumper sticker and sell it to the Woke. You might make millions. Then again they will want Equity in Distributions. Be prepared to make a lot less against your will.

[@ianl5882]

I kind of enjoyed it. More than sniffling what I heard was deep breathing and sighs, which seemed to correspond to some of the low moments of Professor Lloyd’s explanations.

[@eightpoint58]

Family of victims are far more punitive to those who harm their loved ones. Families of criminals are likely to excuse their crimes even if they would be harsh at home.

[@russelltimmerman3771]

Vincent simply never refutes a single point Coleman makes. He just skips to a new argument then Coleman refutes that argument and so on.

[@TomPerkinsCountry]

Also…. GREAT podcast. And, good on the professor. Most in academia with views like his would NEVER subject themselves to this scrutiny, as they prefer to mold the minds of students seeking a “cause” in the privacy of their institution

[@TorBarstad]

When striving for a better world, we need to combine positive intentions and staying sufficiently in touch with reality. And when it comes to policing, I feel as if Lloyd only succeeds at the former, while Coleman succeeds at both. But Lloyd seems likable and well-intentioned, and first and foremost I want to give him kudos for participating :)

[@lorileifer613]

Coleman, how did you say “I don’t get an aggressive vibe from you” with a straight face?? 😂 This guy seems like one of the most gentle souls on planet earth, lol... Idk whether to laugh or cry.

[@TheCurlyW]

His demenour is betray by his vision where people would inevitably be hurt.

[@carolblume5073]

Ikr. I feel sorry for him. He's the absent-minded professor. And a group of aggressive students with an insubordinate TA ruined it for everybody else.

[@rajahalwani8995]

I found his answers evasive and many employ false dilemmas, e.g., prisons or no prisons.

[@stevenborncamp6675]

2:03:35 …”yeah… they have chemicals to sedate you…”…. It took the guest 30 seconds to get the spin restarted.

[@MrValentineMusic]

I'm just content this discourse is happening with such prevalence; premise conclusions premise conclusions. Luv it

[@dkennell998]

"I mean yeah thats certainly a real worry and there are definitely concerns about the myriad of ways it can go and theres a lot of factors regarding all sorts of possible outcomes including all sorts of potential ways of addressing those possible factors amd we can imagine a host of various possibilities with regards to the plausible outcomes which have actually been addressed before on many different occasions and there are opportunities to explore and experiment with the different approaches that can be taken in a way that" Jeeeeeeeeesus. This guy and straight answers are oil and water.

[@toffotin]

This was a nice conversation, but that last part about prisons was just bonkers! We need to let all the violent criminals out and just trust that communities handle it somehow? I mean, I guess I'm over simplifying what he said a bit, but not a lot.

[@solarnaut]

Perhaps even more perverse . . . this is coming from someone who was apparently run out of his own seminar by an aggressive TA, even though he seems to imagine the failed institutional structure of his course may have victimized and traumatized many of the young students that were meant to be in his ward ? Stockholm Syndrome ?

[@TheCurlyW]

@@solarnaut Critical consciousness. I would suggest go listening to NEW DISCOURSES podcast to understand how this man got here and why we're so baffled.

[@fromireland8663]

So true. He is a sitting duck for the social justice warriors. He reminds me of the head of Evergreen college during it's week of woke madness.

[@safetythirdified]

Coleman, you should do a master class on calm argument. Not because of this episode, but the ability to formulate arguments void of dramatics would seem boring, but is exactly what draws me in.

[@philipmason5547]

Another great interview. A small clap for Vincent for being one of the only people to take up the challenge. Another clap for being open to a difference of opinion and for being able to have a civil back and forth. And a final point for maintaining his composure as Coleman’s teeth came out. Coleman’s scrutiny revealed the generally obtuse, clueless, uninformed, and ignorant reflexes that compose most of the identity politics fad. It becomes clear in this discussion who has and who has not thought clearly about the topic. Would be great to see one of the more famous figures leave their cowardice at the door and come on his show, since it almost hurt to watch this agreeable and well-meaning gentleman’s position get turned so completely inside out.

[@bxmuscle6757]

I just finished listening to this episode of Coleman's conversation with Mr. Lloyd. Colman opened it by saying that Mr. Lloyd is one of the very few people with whom he had disagreements who agreed to debate with him. I now understand why. Mr. Lloyd is an intelligent, thoughtful person but Coleman really gives him a run for his money, challenging Mr. Lloyd with powerful, factually based arguments and evidence. It's no wonder that figures like Ibram X. Kendi would avoid such a conversation at all costs.

[@gagillion]

Agree, but im still perplexed at why he would avoid it? If his positions are strong (and many would support that they are), then why won't he?

[@danepaulstewart8464]

WOW. Mr. Hughes’ intellect is extremely impressive. It’s piercing yet encompassing. The good professor seems indeed to be a nice and well intentioned man, but over and over and over again, his positions were taken apart in a calm and reasoned manner, yet also a devastating manner. This rendered him woefully unprepared to really defend them beyond the first introductory volley of basic and/or surface level information.

[@playnejayne5550]

The assistant and the students sensed vulnerability in Professor Lloyd. Keisha may have deeper problems but, in this context, she grasped power by disrespecting and dominating him. Typical of bullies, she was uninterested in going one-on-one with Lloyd.

[@fromireland8663]

Keisha should have got the boot! Telluride fail.

[@heatherchapman1984]

No doubt many a young impressionable person has gained a great deal of wisdom after experiencing a "Lord of the Flies" scenario made possible by radical experimentation with democracy, such as this seminar over which the young and stupid were put in charge, turned out to be; but it's highly debatable that the cost of probably more of those developing minds and psychies harmed by this experience was a reasonable price. I hope the parents got their money back.

[@wmlanza]

Enjoyed the back and forth. Mr. Lloyd has some good insights. I would have liked to see Coleman push back more, especially when Mr. Lloyd’s response doesn’t really answer the question but more or less answered with vagueries.

[@brianmeen2158]

I think Coleman was being kind - he wants to treat the guest well and not try to “bully” him or play the gotcha game . More discussions need to be like this

[@dejue]

You have to have more control over the classroom. They don’t know what’s good for them. They should have been redirected to know their role and if they didn’t like it they could leave.

[@armandgallanosa]

Liberal leftists are consistent with avoiding debates. Moreover, when left to their own vices likeminded teens with well intentioned goals easily transform to lord of the flies, ie CHOP/CHAZ 😢 love your work ❤

[@ulose2piranha]

Vincent: Makes bold and wildly impractical claim Coleman: Points out problems in claim Vincent: "Thanks for that really valid question. Um, yeah, so I'm not a policy maker. We just need to open up to some conversations." Yes, sir... that's what you're doing. This is the conversation. Right now... you're having the conversation. If you don't want people in cages, what is the solution for really violent people? If you don't want police being run by the state, who is supposed to be in charge? If you're calling for radical, global changes on a bunch of policies, you better have at least some fucking idea of what comes next. I don't necessarily disagree with his diagnosis of certain issues, but I think completely destructuralizing many pillars of our society without having some sort of concept how those roles should be replaced is nutty.

[@ellenmaniago8472]

This professor's experience is a good example of the woke "eating one of their own". Do these professors not understand what they are creating? Young people in a developmental phase of "being right about everything " who run with their "victimization " indiscriminately. I would hope that these students would look back on their behaviour once they are in their late 20's or 30's and view their actions as cringe worthy or at the very least reflect on what theories/life experiences influenced their world view when they were 17.

[@karinak09]

Abolishing prisons is a WILD take

[@TriteNight1218]

It’s insanity and it speaks volumes about the person who suggests such a thing. He obviously lives in a bubble, detached from the reality of violence.

[@rg1q84]

I'm happy Mr. Lloyd came to debate and discuss these issues. Typically people with his point of view would rarely debate with someone openly with Coleman's POV. No need to lambast him. There should be more of this.

[@nancydupuis8083]

Mr Lloyd seems like a very nice man and at least took up the invitation to be on the show. That said , he didn't seem to have any concrete answers to Colemans questions and his thinking is so incredibly naive it borders on magical

[@basedcentrist3056]

You have to respct the guy for coming on, but that was somehow the most brutal yet gentle demolishings I've ever seen. Lloyd has existed as an academic and professor for so long because his point of view is the mainstream point of view in universities. This should alarm everybody because these people are clearly extremely far removed from reality. Not to mention they are shaping society, their research and literature informs policy, and they're teaching impressionable young adults. Just listen to those remarks about prison. Or his attitude to spikes in homicides "oh we'll just try our social experiment of no police again! But better this time!" These are peoples lives and families yet he speaks so flippantly. He could barely handle a rouge teaching assistant let alone a hardened criminal. Yet he just expects society to deal with it. Incredible, in all the wrong ways. I hope Coleman gets to do this again. Coleman could be quite a serious debator if he got some more experience. My suggestion is to debate Destiny, Vaush, Noah Samson, FD Signifier, professor flowers, if possible Hassan would be incredible just for visibility. But unlikely to happen. The others are absolutely possible though 👍

[@gojira2892]

I was able to take him seriously right up until he suggested that we let 2 million criminals out of prison.

[@ab-hx8qe]

Mad respect for this debate. We need more of this.

[@brek5]

The craziest thing about all of this is the admin response. I taught, ages ago, at a university in the US, and my case was nothing to do with race, but let's say it was a very intense program, and I had students yelling at me because they (erroneously) disagreed with the teaching methods (which were decided upon by the school and not by me, although I thought they were best practice), and I told the students to take their grievance up with admin. I knew I'd have full support, and I did. (It was an elite school and very much like you make it, or if you can't hack it, go somewhere else.) Now, it seems like they just cave to the whims of any student.

[@Sam-kp7ti]

How can you not love a conversation like this? It is so constructive, and actually brings the ides of race to the marketplace to be discussed freely, unlike the many who want to stay in their silo to protect their propaganda

[@donproles6654]

I'm literally amazed at proponents of extreme restorative justice. This incredibly intelligent professor spends his life thinking about this issue and he has absolutely no idea how to improve the problem, he just wants to remove the current system because it's imperfect. Every time he is confronted with the absurdity of his position he claims that he's "not a policy person" and talks about how issues are really complicated. How can anyone take this seriously?

[@trollingisasport]

"Institutions" What a convenient swiss army knife of a word.

[@CodyvBrown]

this episode felt like it was in an uncanny valley between interview and debate. Was this setup to Lloyd that this was a debate? If it was a debate, it felt all over the place and there was a lot of monologuing. I read Vincent Lloyd's piece when it came out, appreciated it, and It was clear that he took professional risks publishing it. I feel like this could have been better if it was an interview where you were trying to get to the root of some of his beliefs here, then press with some challenges that bring things back to his own experience teaching the class at Telluride (which he was massively frustrated by). Otherwise, he defaults towards a defense where he thanks you for the points, talks about complexity, then doesn't engage with the substance of your arguments. You mentioned at the start that you've had a hard time bringing people on with different views, a clearer format (of either debate or interview) might help.

[@jackdeniston59]

The point , I think, is that this guy hasn't thought at all. So the conversation is maybe to have him think, rather than just repeat what he has been indoctrinated. This is how he is academic.

[@relly793]

same analysis i thought. i think coleman didnt want to push him against the wall and make it seem like a gotcha thing

[@jeeed6390]

At 20:20. Confused. Are you telling me people signed up for a course and chose not to do the prescribed readings? Am I missing something? Also I would love to experience a play-by-play timeline of what occurred; possibly a book. Despite the prof’s excellent description there’s still too much left unsaid.

[@r.hudsonmadeo5745]

Coleman Hughes leans usually a little Left for my personal tastes, but he is spot on here. What I so love about his conversations is his almost preternatural ability to have calm and collegial discussions with people whom he disagrees with. He really is a credit to the medium of debate. If you watch a couple of his videos you are likely to see Glenn Loury and John McWorter pop up in your KZbin algorithm. Both Mr Loury and Mr McWhorter have both lost their cool on occasions, but among the videos I have listened to from Coleman Hughes he is always cool. Other than his occasional deep sighs, which can be a bit of a tell. Amazing to listen to and something to aspire to in my own interactions with others.

[@jackspecs5389]

Oh man… a question for any other engineers in the crowd. So I always thought that to obtain a BA from Princeton, and especially a Phd from anywhere requires having great depth of analysis in thought. Not to toot the horn here but I have a degree from a university that’s pretty darn good and am finishing my masters in aeronautical engineering in the next month. What I’d expect from a scientist/engineer/ thinker when Lloyd makes claims about not needing prisons, the massive effects of anti-black racism etc. is to see some studies! The first thing I’d ask might be: ok are there communities who’ve tried not reprimanding people for crimes, what are they like? How big are those communities, are they small enough where everyone can personally know each other? How successful have they been? Is there a way to predictably translate that success to other/ larger populations? What we got was just kinda “well, it’s complicated and grassroots communities…” the depth of analysis, amount of evidence and precision needed for proving my thesis, and most of my scholarly endeavors has been monumental compared to what this guy puts forth. All this is to ask are there any other engineers who have interacted with sociology PhD’s and if so how rigorous is their thought process/ dissertation defense? I hate to be that guy, but the lack of thought and evidence Lloyd puts forth actually disgusts me for someone holding a doctorate degree. Am I just completely missing the boat here?

[@benjnorris57]

1:41:13 I cannot stand this way of reasoning. “Experimental treatments are happening that I can’t describe but I believe in it.”

[@dancewomyn1]

I've always appreciated Coleman's unflappable, emotionally balanced way of discussing subjects of all kinds. This is such a revealing interview. Coleman's questions are respectfully posed, insightful and backed with concrete examples, historic and statistical reference. Lloyd unfortunately brings very little substantial reference points, and speaks mostly in the vague language of the hyper-woke. (not that he offered nothing, he presented a few valid points) Overall though, he's had a direct experience and example in that seminar which essentially fostered a utopian concept of a class with no singular leader, no structure and what happened? His assistant turned against him, there was a power play where the black students shut down the voices of other non-black students in the class, demanded that the professor focus only on anti-blackness, refused to fully engage in the reading materials, stopped coming to class, a full blown mutiny! Still, he stands by the idea of a society without leadership in which we will all come together and "dialogue" to make things better. I'm blown away.

[@therainman7777]

Yep. I couldn’t say it any better myself.

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

Let‘s put it shortly: That is called Anarchy and never works.

[@niceprofile-k6i]

I appreciate the professor coming on to your program. I think he represented himself well. I also really like when you bring on people who disagree, Coleman!

[@TubeDude78]

Many of Prof Lloyd's positions were utterly without substance, but being that he couched them in so much academese and dissembling it was sometimes hard to see that. But I think his position on prison abolition exposed very clearly just how hollow his viewpoints are. Once you get past the catchy slogan, he has nothing to offer that is in any way based in reality. Even his position that "putting people in cages is a moral failure" is so disingenuous about what we're talking about. Murderers and rapists and criminals have harmed people! They've destroyed families and wreaked untold damage on society. Isn't that also a moral failure!? His naïve utopian vision that would allow for more innocent people to be hurt by violent people is a far worse moral failure. Even if it were true that putting such people in cages is a moral failing (highly debatable), by doing that we are choosing the far lesser evil option of two moral failings.

[@simonsayso7948]

I love that these two opposing sides can have this conversation. Bravo to you both

[@GingerDrums]

Props to Lloyd for debating. Its so rare to find leftists willing to debate publically. It makes his ideology instantly more palletable, even if I would disagree on the utility of his framing. Even center left debaters like Destiny are unable to secure academic leftists to defend the Critical Social Justice position.

[@TubeDude78]

To me, the most impressive thing about Coleman is not his always calm demeanor or his ability to bring nuance and clarity to a complex topic or his incisive questions that cut through the bullshit, but rather his ability to maintain a look of utter equanimity when faced with hearing the most inane responses coming out of the mouth of the person sitting across from him. For that, he truly deserves a medal.

[@michaellemos6053]

I think Mr Lloyd is sincere, but he really had no answers. I totally identify with Coleman’s views and was really looking forward to some insight to those who don’t see these issues the way I do. Very frustrating. And then he gave his views of the prison system! Wow! And he is so intelligent, at least I think he is. But I really enjoyed all 2 hours! Thanks Coleman!

[@JonathanRossRogers]

1:40:35 I wonder if Vincent Lloyd recognizes that families and communities have been dealing with murder for many thousands of years. Quite often, a murderer was dealt with by murdering him right back, leading to generations of inter-tribal warfare. Remote tribes in places such as the Amazon lived like that within living memory.

[@truthstarved]

Excellent exchange! The failings of Professor Lloyd's Woke perspective only truly came to light when his views on prison and police reform were interrogated. As someone who ran with a very rough crowd when young, I can personally attest to the fact that criminal behavior in general is driven by selfish desire and an utter lack of social conscience. Coleman was on point when he cited serial murderers as a rhetorical means of pointing out the weakness in the good professor's community based social justice remedies, but the example of gang culture would have been far more encompassing as poor black communities around the country are plagued with gangs who prey on, and corrupt, their children as an essential component of their "business" model - this while their parent(s) harbor a race centrist, anti-establishment mindset that inhibits them from cooperating with law enforcement. Most conspicuous by its absence was any direct reference to the sociopolitical philosophy of Wokeism itself - which is an amalgamation of postmodern and postMarxist ideology that is consciously constructed to incrementally undermine the social fabric of western society via a vilification of "White, CIS, Patriarchal" power structures.

[@annamironova9990]

Coleman has an amazing amount of composure for the non-sense of the guest and patience to still give Lloyd a benefit of the doubt by keeping probing. I heard Coleman"s deep breaths in the mic 😅. I had a difficult time listening to the inteview at times. Despite Coleman's good efforts, Lloyd's answers were mostly a flow of simplistic statements, a lot of the time I had a difficult time distilling any meaning out of them, to be honest.

[@dylanshearsbyart]

Amazing job in this interview Coleman!

[@fred321cba]

[Listens to story] Wow, I feel bad for those students that got kicked out. Crappy treatment. [Listens to interview] Wow, I feel good for those students that got kicked out. Lucky escape.

[@natashaburke1533]

good for them for not giving in

[@therainman7777]

@@natashaburke1533 Seriously. If I knew who they were I would write them a letter commending their behavior.

[@therainman7777]

This is just so, so embarrassing. I can barely finish it. I feel sorry for the professor; he seems like a good guy who just genuinely doesn’t realize that _he himself is in a cult._

[@fred321cba]

@@therainman7777 I feel the same way.

[@sigmundfried3838]

There seems to be scant appreciation of the fact that humans are limited in their ability to solve problems, particularly self made problems. Thus the Professor seems not to notice advances achieved over time in the treatment of prisoners, as well as progress made in dealing with mental health issues. In short, he appears ro reject a ' tough love' approach to the challenges of social cohesion. He seems to be possessed by woke compassion, which creates more problems than it solves. Yehuda.

[@JoshYenne]

People need to stop having this guy on. He’s not having a discussion. There is no actual back-and-forth. He just spouts platitudes. And grand sweeping things that do not have anything to do with an actual conversation going on most of the time I was so happy when Coleman actually pushed back and talked about how slavery has been in essentially every society in the world at some time. Both ways as in slaver and enslaved. It was a great point. Granted as a soliloquy more than a conversation, but it did not matter because Vincent’s response was basically to give another little speech on how slavery is BAD. And somewhere in that little speech drop the phrase “anti-blackness.

[@skipfluck4299]

What’s even more impressive, this dude has made a career out of this nonsense.

[@brianmeen2158]

You know what’s scarier? Is that he’s teaching our young people.

[@wrongthinkminority7421]

An interesting prompt for Mr. Lloyd would have been his thoughts on proper recompense for an atrocity committed against a black person. He mentioned bringing in the family, but in what way, and how would you stop that family member from seeking extrajudicial retaliation in that moment or thereafter?

[@galaxytrio]

Every time Coleman issues a challenge to one of Professor Lloyd's claims, the professor responds with broad general statements and slogans. He is unable or unwilling to provide evidence his central claim of an anti-black culture, presumably in the US.

[@paulsetti9484]

What's entertaining is how Coleman brings it full circle at the end with Vincent's criminal justice ideas and points out how he just experienced the tyranny that comes with the lack of structure and he's shockingly learned absolutely nothing from it. He seems like a nice guy though and it was an interesting talk.

[@petemccutchen3266]

When I read Professor Lloyd’s article, I felt sympathy for him. After listening to him talk, I think he rather deserved it.