Combat: How To Beat Radar Guided SAMs | DCS WORLD

[@kukulkanlordofcas4931]

I'll be honest, I'm also interested in the realistic video, at the very least just for learning about ballistics and real tactics.

[@s2korpionic]

You'll need dedicated jamming aircrafts like Prowlers/Growlers and aircraft that can utilise AGM-88s like the Hornet or Viper. You'll also need extensive planning on where the threat circles are, so to avoid the threats as much as necessary. Check out Falcon BMS videos on how they do SEAD missions.

[@fluxtubes]

I want both Cap! Realistic too.

[@grimreapers]

rgr

[@skatterpro]

I want the other video too! Realism is neat, and I would strive for realism, but knowing how to 'exploit' the game not only leads to more options, but a way of putting the realistic ways into perspective.

[@firmanpandi9666]

For me, whatever your radar and how well your radar equipment are, in 2019, 2020s, 2050s, you will never ever get lock on by enemy radar as low as 15ft, 10ft Why? Because the curvature of Earth, they are 8 inch per mile Except if you try to beat a flat earther SAMs operator, no luck for you, whatever you tried, he will tell you the earth is flat somehow....

[@mrjava66]

Firman Pandi a SAM can overcome the curvature of the earth by being tall. The fact that height overcomes the curvature of the earth problem is WHY awacs exists. If your Sam had datalink with an awacs it could see the enemy plane from far away. If the Sam had a dedicated awacs drone this getting low stuff would not work. IR seeker heads would also be needed in that scenario.

[@firmaneffendi2801]

@@mrjava66 did he got any AWACS airborne during this mission?

[@cavecanemsuecia8041]

I was in triple A in eighties with in Swedish army and had an exercise against "viggen". That was exactly how the Swedish pilots fly against oss. It was amazing to be in ground and see it.

[@Pulkz]

And here I am, trying to beat a S-300 at 19k feet

[@grimreapers]

lol good luck with that...

[@skatterpro]

@@grimreapers how about a lofted JDAM and turning cold as soon as possible?

[@abdulrafay1509]

Lol good luck

[@firmanpandi9666]

Both Cap, I'm excited about it!

[@manuelrdz.2246]

Argentine pilots used this tactic during the Falklands Campaign

[@grimreapers]

Awesome

[@Bellator151]

and British pilots too e.g. Sqn Ldr J Pook, see his book 'RAF Harrier Ground Attack: Falklands'

[@oneworld9071]

I'm a bit surprised that a search on "radar" AND "floor" yields nothing....... in lieu of a more accurate term, "floor" is what I'm used to, having seen it in other older flight sims...... 50' AGL was typical, and this guru said it, so...... I suppose 50' would be close enough for rule of thumb. Thanks, Grimmest of Reapers, as more than usual, this episode clarifies plenty else :)

[@csdigitaldesign]

Flying low is a legit tactic irl to avoid radar. I don't know why you'd say they don't teach that to real pilots because they do. Mostly irl it does depend on terrain, however some of those radars have a real life lower limit. As far as flying low like that, they DO actually do that. I've heard plenty stories of pilots flying 10-15 ft off the ground.

[@MrSnakedHD]

Because the risks are insane, even if you have a pilot that has perfect control over his aircraft. There’s FOD everywhere, the risk of a birdstrike is extremely high and many other things. So any kind of mistake (and pilots do them, trust me), malfunction, or FOD would be catastrophic. I think you’re mixing up flying under terrain, and what combat doctrine considers flying low and actually doing this. Because some aircrafts like the aardvark and B-1 are specifically designed to fly very low.

[@Power5]

"Its really easy." Proceeds to fly 10 feet off the deck for a few miles at 400 knots....

[@namedperson1436]

It is realistic, but the doppler shift makes it possible to filter out. When the radio-wave bounces from a fast approaching object it will compress the wavelength a little bit, ie shift the frequency a little. This means that the radar can ignore all "static" returns and only look for phase shifted ones. This however means that hovering jets like the harrier, or jets moving perpendicular to the radar would be filtered out. Long story short. I think it is realistic for old systems, but as they get more digitalized the radars will be more than capable to handle this.

[@Citizen_Snips1]

Perfect for JDAM lofting in the Hornet!

[@anonymous17367]

Going low isn't entirely unrealistic, I live near the Ambala air base where the IAF Rafales are operated from, so 2 days after the induction ceremony, at around 9:30 PM, a Rafale went whizzing over my head no above than 30 feet, it was so low (and so goddamn loud) that the lights from my house literally reflected from its canard

[@mariushusejacobsen3221]

13:40 You can set a sam site to fire only at a fraction of their normal range. Though the only way I've seen to do that right now is CA. Probably doable by script. If some SA-10 fires at 30% range it'll break your assumptions.

[@Bellator151]

handy video (and actually a realistic tactic, at least as far as RAF doctrine during the Cold War period is concerned) although I can't help wondering, are there really DCS players who can flawlessly maintain

[@grimreapers]

agree

[@SpypilotSR-71]

Modern SAM radars track the change in position and would ignore the radar cross section. Also many older SAMs have a manual mode which allows the operator to shotgun fire the SAM.

[@grimreapers]

thx

[@vytisagafonovas3887]

i think they can filter it out easely. Radars in these days uses polairized waves, back in the day they coudnt shoot radar guided misiles downwards becouse of all the clutter, radar just coudnt look downwards, they bypased this issue using polarized waves so they can definately filter it out, everything that is unpolalized is just ignored, so radar does not see the grownd. The flying low tactics work now, i assume, is just becouse of earth curveture. If radar is at 10m height, at 20 km from radar, everything below 6m is hiden from radar. further you are higher you can go undetected, with same parameters you can fly as high as 480m at 90 km distance and be undetected. What i dont know if all or at all ground based radars use polarized waves, sincet they mainly look up. Also its just agame and earth curvature may not eaven existin it.

[@sixpack595]

Good stuff, now how about the other one too? Thanks!

[@jonathaniszorro]

I'm probably wrong but I think I read somewhere that even the S-400 can't engage targets below 50ft. Not sure about the minimum altitude, but I also read the S-500 currently in development is supposed to be able to shoot down low orbit satellites!

[@grimreapers]

I agree. Whatever you do, there is just no was to process that ground noise out. So it's always going to be a weak point for SAMs.

[@firmaneffendi2801]

I think the curvature of Earth also help it

[@Nails077]

Flying it like a Viggen pilot. You are Viggening in an Eagle. Also speaking of flying that low IRL I don't have any ways of verifying so all I have is anecdotes from RL viggen pilots who stated he was flying so low over lakes that when he had a fuel tank on, the tank took some damage from touching the water. Another one claimed his tank got ripped clean off when it dipped into the lake, and some service technicians claimed occasionally a Viggen would return from a flight with treetops stuck in the airframe. I don't know if theese are all just stories, or all or some of it actually happened, but they did use to fly very low.

[@Nails077]

@Rick O'Shay True it is possible, even likely that those specific stories are exaggerations. They come from the people involved in working with the viggens themselves and we all know how people tend to exaggerate their own achievements. But there were a lot of damages from low flying back in those days, mostly bird strikes, but there were plenty of other incidents, including wingtips touching the water when doing sharp turns at very low altitude. They had permission to fly 10 meters above water and 20 meters above land, but often went lower than that.

[@skatterpro]

The drag of actually dipping a tank in a lake would likely cause a very rapid disassembly of the airframe. That said, the Viggen pilots flew LOW. There's footage of them buzzing canoes out there.

[@larsgottlieb]

Awacs should be able to track you - they can track individual trucks trundling down roads ..

[@lordsqueak]

I did not expect to see individual blades of grass.

[@X8X8X8X8X8X8X8X8X8X]

This will come in handy during my Vietnam holiday.

[@grimreapers]

lols

[@bmw540i]

I would love to see 1, a nice jammer a/c in DCS Growler/Prowler etc 2, have some way you can control the SAM sites and awacs as a GCI via CA. Also can you terrain mask from radars or AWACS in DCS or does it see you through hills etc??

[@bmw540i]

I fact, someone just make an A-6 Intruder with the Prowler variant. Love the A-6

[@grimreapers]

Radar in DCS must have LOS. You can currently control SAMs and AWACS via CA. I'm not sure a jammer plane would work at moment, reason being that currently DCS only simulates white noise, no other jamming methods that a Growler would use.

[@bmw540i]

Grim Reapers Cheers Cap

[@alchemicalanarchist]

If a SA 300 is shooting at me I will risk a bird strike.

[@hunterbruyere5052]

Laughs in Harrier

[@kwilliams3161]

Someone please help .i just recently downloaded the a10a from steam. Dcs asks for the a10 activation key whenever I start it up.i wasn’t given an activation key when I bought a10.when I start the game I’m able to select a10 mission and start it but not able to fly the aircraft.

[@eagle3307]

click on keys from steam main page when you highlight DCS

[@johannesfff743]

A guy in the military said they have equipment to see on the ground low flying planes and nothing would help you, not even stealth.

[@grimreapers]

Yes he may very well be correct. I think the guys I spoke to was speaking about older cold war sams

[@timcornwell2955]

Thanks Cap!

[@dixievfd55]

I suspect the A-10A and C are the best jets for this kind of defense as well as helicopters.

[@grimreapers]

agree

[@thundercrosssplitattack2064]

So in the F18, there is this blaring tone when I hear Sams firing at me, then the warning is gone, does it mean the missile lost track and I can proceed on my route until I hear the warning again?

[@grimreapers]

Assuming that you have not put the hostile in the Hornet's RWR blind spot, yes.

[@mrjava66]

An airborne radar could see you. A tall radar mast could see you. A lofted Sam with active radar could see you. So, yeah, there is lots of ways this would not work in real life. Even over the blue ocean where obstacles are not and issue. A typical tall radar mast can see the surface of the ocean for 50 to 75 miles, so they could see you for a long long way.

[@mrjava66]

Place the SAM better, like on top of a hill that has a good look through the AO. That would make it easier for the SAM to over come these issues.

[@mariushusejacobsen3221]

See the tall masts of the sa-10 in this video. There's another couple factors that may be at work here. One is the resolution of the radar. www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Range%20Resolution.en.html The radar is unable to tell two objects (here aircraft and ground) apart if they're too close. In fact, being low, more parallel to the ground, could help this. The other is the apparent lack of doppler filter for ground clutter. Ground clutter is doppler neutral, which is why you turn sideways to fade into it. If the SAMs employed doppler to enhance a signal, you'd remain visible as long as you're closing.

[@svmik]

"Don't think you are. Know you are"

[@Hardmetal1993]

Cool vid cap

[@MongooseTacticool]

15 feet?! F111 pilots: hold my beer

[@grimreapers]

lols

[@firmaneffendi2801]

any link about it? I wonder how low the Ardvark can go 😂

[@MongooseTacticool]

@@firmaneffendi2801 haha search "Jeff Guinn aircrew interviews" he was a 111 pilot. I was exaggerating ;) , but he has some good stories.

[@MongooseTacticool]

@@firmaneffendi2801 kzbin.info/www/bejne/d17Lo6WDodCmhKM

[@Kevin-yh8ol]

Is this flat plane over Crimea?

[@grimreapers]

it;s well into Russia

[@philipkirwan3844]

the RAF trains there pilots to fly ultra low to evade SAM's i worked on jaguars in the 80's and they flew 50' and below all the time

[@grimreapers]

awesome

[@garrettsoash4527]

That low a tor or SA-15 will get you

[@grimreapers]

yes fair point

[@BrianCinSpruceGrove]

Love your stuff always Cap but I have to ask the question now. WIth your comments on the people asking for stuff and the real low level stuff, is this an arcade game? It just became a little less SIM for me. I guess they need to make a g ame that appeals to the masses not the hard core sim people, which I am sure the number is getting smaller year by year.

[@tread140]

This 'simple' technique would work in real life....but wondering if you watched the video? He states the reasons why this is not something that is actually used. Unless you want a sim cockpit that actually kills you if you hit the ground, people will do this in a sim because we get unlimited lives.

[@grimreapers]

I expect it is perfectly accurate, but this method is too dangerous to ask real life humans pilots to do.

[@Yjana89]

Guess what were the Russians / Ukrainians doing all Day during Cold War and still do...? :] Mh, that sounds a little rough... So, I added a Smiley.

[@dimitrispatsiaouras713]

Is the Nike Hercules in dcs it is pretty old

[@skatterpro]

Nope.

[@dimitrispatsiaouras713]

@@skatterpro I hoped it would it is really interesting

[@lucasrayo1]

argentina air force¿

[@AugustoCabrera]

When he says "This is unrealistic": Pablo Carballo intensifies

[@kman201399]

3 min of B.S. just to say fly low

[@azisandwich]

Yes

[@akisakis7980]

Just stay away...between 15 or 20nm and keep running in circles...gg ez noobs missiles lol

[@maximme]

hahaha You are a combi havesting the grass

[@grimreapers]

lol

[@mariushusejacobsen3221]

I've been referring to the viggen as the supersonic lawnmower.

[@Aeronaut1975]

In real life, you'd have the curvature of the Earth on your side, but in DCS the world really is flat :/

[@kanagawakenji7]

I thought the DCS world was visually flat but modeled as curved.

[@Aeronaut1975]

@@kanagawakenji7 No, I'm 99% sure it's modelled flat, hence co-ordinates being slightly stretched.

[@kanagawakenji7]

@@Aeronaut1975 does that mean that things like radar are coded to simulate the curvature?

[@manofcultura]

Laughs in f22.

[@anonymous17367]

Laughs in IR SAM, as Até said

[@manofcultura]

@@anonymous17367 in a real war they’d have burnout pods. Pulse chemical lasers that blind IR seekers. So still laughs in F22.

[@anonymous17367]

@@manofcultura what's a burnout pod?

[@manofcultura]

@@anonymous17367 just because you can’t google it? Can you not read, moron.