Rob Liefeld disses the X-Men some more, but what do you like?

[@beallztronics5344]

I think that Rob Liefeld is just voicing his opinion like everyone else on Twitter. I understand where he's coming from. The current Run of X-men can't decide what it wants to be and has lost sight of what the original concept for X-men was. Chris Claremont introduced new ideas but never lost sight of what the concept or idea behind it was. Even when the new Giant -sized X-men was introduced the concept still was there and it felt like an X-men comic. Now most of the X-men titles feels like its mainly for Gratuitous Posturing and Theatrics. Also instead of fighting for a better world, The X-men have become selfish and almost villainous with the exception of some characters such as Sinister who is still well written and Colossus who may feel the X-men are not the same as well.

[@casualgamerreed]

Love his passion for comics

[@AL-ws5yi]

Liefeld is entitled to his opinions. I don’t think he’s wrong. I really liked the 90’s cartoon. I thought they really captured the feel of the original comics.

[@nicolekoch1332]

"Hickman is tapping into that long time continuity" I guess I missed where CYCLOPS and WOLVERINE became "bedsheet-buddies."😮😂😂😂😂

[@ThW5]

What made the X-men great were the people working on them BEFORE Rob Liefeld. I mean, the Dark Phoenix Saga, God Loves Man Kills, the New Mutants era...

[@mcpics4448]

It ironic really, Hickman pull form his era as well with Phalanx and made them a universal threat and a big deal more than he did lol

[@richmcgee434]

Too true. Robby didn't contribute crap to the golden era of that line of books.

[@INFERNO95]

All I here is the same story from the 80s when it comes to the x-men. I don't here any other story from that era. Just how much about 80 X-Men do people really remember or like?

[@ThW5]

@@INFERNO95 Oh the Brood Saga which more or less explained the New Mutants, the Morlocks kidnapping Angel, Storm just walking in Harlem (the one in NYC) and being NOTICED enough to let Luke Cage trail her, just to ask if she needed some help, Wolverine patching up his relationship with Alpha Flight (with flashback to his first appearance), Kitty's story, Wolverine's first limited series, Cyclops trying to find a new role in his life after Jean's death...

[@recursivecoin359]

Yes, people are bitching too early. The problem with X-Men is same problem they've had since the mid 90's. Too many titles. There's an expression in writing, “Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler's heart, kill your darlings.” I don't care how good a writer you are... if you don't place some restrictions on yourself... your stories will get spread too thin, too wide or too weird. Too many books means too much space to screw up continuity and get distracted with nonsensical side characters and side quests. Too many books also makes it ridiculously expensive. In 1989 when I spent $1 per book on a few issues of X-Factor and X-Men for Nanny and the Orphan Maker stories I was forgiving. But if I'm spending $5 a comic for 9 different titles every month, I'm going to be far more critical. That's a bad formula. Too many cooks in the kitchen, too many darlings running amuck and more critical readers.

[@sketchasaurrex4087]

Late 80s, 90-92 ish, I can't remember when it changed but that's my favorite run

[@PhantomHarlock78]

Liefeld podcast is great. Lot of cool backstage histories.

[@randalldowling1068]

Totally agree.. He talked a lot about "macho" comics in the 90s. I think that and getting back to basics is what he was referring to.

[@anthonyhill2537]

Why can't the X-Men comic books be uplifting and have a message of unity between humans and mutants and say that not every human is bad racist or a bigot why can't it be like that where everybody gets along and have some good humans and show that mutants and humans can get along.

[@superthorc6894]

Anthony Hill the problem with that is the inherent nature of humanity potential foe malice Besides this is a practical It’s not an ideal but it has more merit than going into in specific species domination

[@Catpower99]

X-men comics are written now with the vision of a cinical white men, so for him minorities will never be welcome by majorities. The writer also needs a justification to segregation, so he made every human a bigoted

[@superthorc6894]

Catpower99 inside every cynical is a disappoint idealist And with x-men the question has alway been asked why continue to bargain with people who are alway want to kill you Humanity in relation to mutant made that pretty clear with the kill list on a Industrials scale And outside the point of the murders various Mutant that don’t have a glamorous power are not welcome And even accounting the exponent rate mutants are growing, integrated would not exactly actually last if you think about it The definition of insanity is doing the same old thing and expecting a different result

[@ThW5]

Oh they can, but the mutants are different from other minorities. 1. On average they are very powerful, so the majorities have a reason to fear them. 2. They come from all kinds of religious, financial, ethnic, racial or philosophical backgrounds (in that they are similar to the vowelless shorthand people), which means that the people who like Magneto have experienced the worst of group relations, just imagine what a longlived, powerful mutant with the run of life of Icon would do, born a slave on a cottonfield, not instructed by the life experience of a basically immortal negotiator... That they are potentially powerful makes them feared and attractive for exploitation. Imagine Wolverine and Magneto on a trip in the forest with teen mutants telling them about humanity from their own experience. Beyond that, it would be unrealistic, the Marvel Universe tends to keep resembling ours, in spite of superfights, monsters and about two alien invasions a year. Interesting stories need to be told and the 9999 New Yorkers who are fine with sharing their state and city a two-tailed telepath are not a story, as much as the 13 bigots who want to murder said telepath.

[@jamesfinch14]

That's what it's been for sixty years. You guys aren't tired of that?

[@RockandrollNegro]

The original Giant Sized X-Men to the end of the Liefeld/Lee/Claremont era was the best era for the X-Men. When they jumped ship to Image, all of the excitement left the Spider-Man and X titles and they have never recovered. I personally don't think the X titles can be salvaged. They ran their course by 1994 and there is absolutely nothing new that has been done since in the interim, just rehashes of Days of Future Past, Dark Phoenix, and other beats from 30-40 years ago. They gave Wolverine a beginning and an end, so his character is finished. Maybe they can do more "Wolverine adventures in the 1800s" stories or something, but his appeal has been lost since his past has been revealed. When I started reading X-Men, it was a reprint title. When they rebooted the team and got out of the reprint cycle, it was a fresh, bold take. Then for about 15 years, you had a compelling sustained narrative. It has all been downhill since then. You get the sense that Marvel has accepted that the X-books are toast, and they don't care what goes into the current titles because the X-Men are a comatose property being kept alive for film and licensing opportunities. When publishers don't care about their properties, neither should the fans.

[@anibal5845]

I’d say Morrison attempting to develop a mutant culture and then the Utopia era were great for what they were.

[@Catpower99]

@@anibal5845 H escrew up badly with Beast and Jean. so I don't care about his shitty mutant culture

[@Cincinnatijames]

Liefeld on X-Force was the beginning of the constant hotshotting of the X-titles stories. The cul-da-sac of storytelling where they would throw a big question out there but never have a satisfying resolution. With Claremont you had a steady hand steering the ship and even if he hadn't thought out the resolution before going down a path, he was competent enough find the direction.

[@cultfilmvideo6936]

Imagine giving your entire life to an art form and then being told to relax... it's just comics.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

After Claremont's departure, I stayed with it for about a year and gave up. The XMen titles were still decent but I noticed the stories became more run in the mill X Guys v. Baddies but the urgency of the Mutant Cause seemed to shrink, month to month! In other words, The XMen were morphing into what would become WILDC.A.T.S! I think Liefeld. was right, the 90s cartoon almost perfectly condensed the look and feel of The XMen from Claremont's entire tenure, including the later additions of characters like Bishop and Omega Red (I think)!

[@Relugus]

It's been speculated by some that Hickman hates Kevin Feige because of WandaVision.

[@burne27]

Hickman's X-Men was so intriguing after HOX/POX.I feel like the "problems" some fans have with it is exactly the shot in the arm the x-men needed. I love that the X-men seem "off". I really want to see what happens next. The major problem is that Marvel is milking it. there's no need for like 10 titles out there. You really only need 6, and X of Swords should be a 6-12 parter. A tighter line makes the story move better. We're a year in and they've already worn out the resurrection angle.

[@nickjanecke6688]

I’m enjoying Hickman’s X-Men run because it feels so different from much of what has come before. I’ll admit that I’m not a long-time reader of X-Men comics, but I try and keep up with what’s happening in that corner of the Marvel Universe even if I’m not reading those books. It seems to me that for the longest time now (especially in the modern era) the X-Men and mutants in general have been on the defensive. Lots of storylines seem to be focused on introducing the next big threat to mutants and (especially post-House of M) they’ve been closer to extinction than they’ve ever been before. I think what appeals to me about Hickman’s run is it puts the X-Men and mutants in a position of power and sees what happens with that. That early issue of “X-Men” where Charles and Magneto tell the world leaders “this is how it’s going to be from now on” is powerful stuff. I think the recurring theme of “No more” (in regards to how mutants have been treated up to that point) is what makes this so compelling for me. It feels like they’re taking a stand in a way that they haven’t before, at least based on my knowledge of X-Men continuity. I do see the criticism that some fans have in regards to feeling like the X-Men are behaving like villains now. But even that has real world parallels for me. I’m not trying to get into the politics of this particular issue but just look at the state of Israel. That nation was founded by people who survived some of the worst persecution and genocide that we’ve seen in the modern age. Yet I think you could make the argument that they’ve now become the thing that they once had to fear. They’ve done to the Palestinians what was once done to them. And again, I’m not trying to say they’re 100% wrong in defending themselves, I’m just saying that it’s a complicated issue and both perspectives have merit. I’m also just trying to make the point that it’s not impossible for people who’ve been victims for so long to become the oppressors. That’s basically my take on Hickman’s X-Men in regards to whether or not they’re “villains” now. Mutants have been victims for a very long time and I don’t think it’s too far-fetched for them to be acting the way they are now given their newfound position of power. All that being said my biggest complaint about the current era of X-Men is simply how greedy Marvel seems to be in terms of wanting us to feel like we need to buy every X-title. X of Swords epitomizes this particular problem. I don’t have anything against interconnected narratives, but it was bad enough with 6 Dawn of X titles at the start and they’ve since added several more to that number.

[@Eyrrll]

I’m one of the few that generally stopped liking X-Men shortly after Byrne left. I have read many X story arcs over the years, and generally liked them... but the only stuff that I consistently loved was (roughly) that issue 100 to 140 era.

[@spaceknight793]

I read up to about 229 (Fall of Mutants). I got sick of it by that point. Aside from the Paul Smith issues, I was only reading it because everybody else was. Dumped everything back to issue 150, the last issue I actually enjoyed.

[@Eyrrll]

Spaceknight79 it’s a similar story for me. I continued to buy them until around 213 (Mutant Massacre). I was a bit irritated that the crossover event fell pretty flat in the actual massacring of mutants... if I recall correctly, the only real casualties were Morlocks, and even then only ones that you never heard of. I used to joke that the event should have been titled the “Morlock Massacre”. I also sold off my collection back to 150. It was just a nice round number after the Byrne era more than anything else. I would eventually sell the Byrne (and earlier) stuff too. The prices got so high that I couldn’t resist.

[@itcamefromthenerdcave1669]

Amen brother! First half of the 100s was amazing!!!

[@superthorc6894]

For me Hickman use of x-men and the greater marvel landscapes really does help me want to look for it And that look that the pull list of back issue help out my order in comic shop In a way a win win situation here

[@ExplodingPrinny]

I can't say I know the history of the X-men all that deeply, but I can still appreciate what Hickman is doing. I do think that something is wrong the X-men, though. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. (The comment Leah Williams had a character make in X-factor #3 really summed it up.)

[@Ash-ep1nz]

DAWN OF X titles suck though. Many who loved Hox & Pox have almost given up on Dawn Of X. And I am not making things up. Most readers I meet genuinely don't care what is going on with X-Men. Marvel ruined Hickman's vision by quickly capitalising on the success of HOX / POX. And Hickman himself RUINED Dawn of X by introducing polyamorous relationships. Hinting wolverine and Cyclops are boning each other. None of the main X-Men characters in Dawn of X are acting like themselves. That's the biggest turn off and why the interest has waned off after HOX POX. I agree with LIEFELD here, 90's X-Men and Claremont's run will always be SUPERIOR.

[@piratekingcz]

@@Ash-ep1nz 1k times this I wholeheartedly agree and I've been saying the same thing. I loved the hox/pox at first but when dawn of x started it immediately went to shit. X-men #1 was the first flag with the Scott/Logan/Jean room diagram and hints at their open relationship. But then it goes beyond that they got greedy and put out multiple books with multiple shitty writers none of which understand these characters. I've pretty much dropped this entire hickman run. I just keep tabs on it every now and then.

[@Ash-ep1nz]

@@piratekingcz IKR! They should leave Emma/Scott/Jean alone to settle their differences. Not hookin' them up with anyone else. Also Havok is basically a sex slave to Madelyne Pryor, his own brother's ex wife. CABLE being in a relationship withall 5 of Cuckoo sisters. I am like WTF!!

[@SamGuthrie1977]

I'm with you. Nothing wrong with the 90's X-Men cartoon -- it was indeed an great cartoon. But I think most life-long X-Men fans will agree that Claremont's era in the late 70's - early 90's was the peak of the franchise. It's just odd that Rob would mention the cartoon over that.

[@2ndstreetmarvel]

I like Hickman’s X-Men. It’s doing a new storyline that reaches back into the mutants rich history. I just got back into reading again a few years ago, plus I’m not really familiar with all the history, so it prompts me to read back issues. Another thing it does is some of those fans who do/don’t like it will come watch some of my reviews and help illuminate some of that history by either explaining it or telling me what to read. So it’s been great for that. I do also see why it would turn away people who’ve been around for awhile. In the end of this Hickman run I theorize that it won’t matter in the long run when Moira dies the last time and things reset back to the (somewhat) regular X-Men continuity.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

I would think being locked in a room with Claremont's issues would be more effective. I enjoyed the cartoon but it couldn't really explore the themes like the comics did. As for Liefeld, while I did enjoy X-Force as it came out, he was partially responsible for the model that comics had to be 90% testosterone fueled action scenes and 10% people posing while arguing about things.

[@andrewduitsman3918]

I really like one of the points you made. I personally liked Messiah Complex through Second Coming, it felt like a good change up. Then they blew it up and put Bendis on the book and all the auxiliary and side books went everywhere. I think had the X-Men had a year or two to do something with Hope Summers instead of bam AvX and scrap that Bendis do your thing the line would have been cleaner. In alot of ways I feel like Krakoa and resurrections protocols to bring back X-Men is kind of the direction they would have gone with Utopia. Except editorial was like lets blow up lines change everything up and leave a decade of half cocked plot threads,

[@horace2358]

What Hickman is doing is definitely the best the line's been since Second Coming in my opinion.

[@calvinbethea3369]

In all honesty I've stopped collecting the comic. One of the things about Grant Morrison's run that made it so great for me is he distilled it down to its roots. He focused on the fact it was a school and cleaned out a lot of the dead weight. I've been reading the comic since Giant size and I will always have a fondness for the Claremont run. I just don't recognize the comic anymore.

[@thebluewind5733]

I think the idea of hickman's X-men but the execution is the problem along with excluding the original fans. It feels like a lure to reel us in then chucks us away creating a wedge between fans.

[@PorcelinaTheQuiet]

I've never really seen the 90s cartoon, but I have to say I'm not really into Hickman's run. There is just something off about the whole thing and the characterization of the mutants. Which I do think is a bit of the point, but if these are the "real" X-Men doing these actions in the books, they are doing damage to these characters that you'll never be able to repair. I'm caught up on the main title X-books since getting back to school, but I haven't read a lot of the side titles. As it was paying for the books I've had on hold since the March shutdown and the newer ones, it was too expensive as it was. So maybe I'm missing something as a lot of what I know about the side titles I'm just hearing from online reviews. I will say this, people are talking about the X-books again. For better or worse. We had a discussion about them the other night and the theories went everywhere from pod people to multiverse combinations to my one friend who thinks timelines are being blurred. So, if they wanted people talking, they've done that.

[@bt3779]

I think what he is saying, probably poorly...is get some writers to have a long term plan for your characters...and give the writers the expectation that they will be on there for a good while. We are all familiar with Claremont...but the the tenure of folks like Jurgens, Dixon, Giffen, Dematteis, Wolfman on various titles is astounding.

[@thebirdofbludhaven8647]

I think this era of X-men should try and be its own thing it seems like too many modern comics try and imitate older eras which in some cases is good but they can never truly become there own thing

[@luciferfernandez7094]

I get that at certain age one may care about continuity; I was. But then it’s like, dunno, hard to swallow? I like Morrison’s New X Men as it’s own thing, also Claremont-Cockrum-Byrne’s run as it’s own thing- trying to believe these stories tell the fictional lives of characters who have aged 10 years since 1963 seems silly to me.

[@brandonperlow9091]

Hm, to me what took the wind out of the Hickman run sails, was the X-of -Swords crossover. There are some really cool pie-in-the-sky ideas(not all I agreed with, but lets see where it was going) , and I was looking forward to an epic run with the core books. I feel that its going to be muddied by the crossover, and was hurt by Empyre too. I pretty much stopped getting the books. X-Men is really a series that had its best days behind it. Grant Morrison had the last interesting run of the line. I think the 90s animated and Wolverine and the X-Men did a great job of distilling the great classic claremont runs, and making them memorable for some younger millenials that never bought comics. Perlmutter really put the knife in the franchise (as with FF) when Fox had movie rights. That was 20 years of the title not seeing its potential. Marvel used to have X-Men as its flagship selling title in the 80s-90s. Its not anymore. Power of X gave it a boost, but I sense its going to lose momentum. Marvels multiple events at once and after are really going to hurt the company. Im really turned off even with the upcoming King In Black event. I think Marvel's sales need to tank before we see a strong editorial and creative fix. Im actually more positive on DC fixing things in '21.

[@jbrisby]

The current X-Men run is lacking in warmth, lacking in fun, and lacking in plot. I've read every issue from the start, and I still have no idea what's going on. I can't imagine how someone coming in at the middle is supposed to figure it out.

[@killerred9690]

what our dawg rob seems to forget is that kids have to grow up. the cartoon was great for what it was but an intense action comic doesn't have to be dumbed down to that level to revive the fanbase. the current x-force and hellions have a good balance of action and writing, if they can steer the plot and characters into the right direction with the same blend of those titles then that will help a lot for non purists and those who quit the hobby and are interested in coming back to the X-franchise.

[@bronzeagekid8223]

In terms of 1975 and up, there is no question in my mind that the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne/Austin run is the pinnacle of this property. Having heard Liefeld’s podcast, I know that he agrees with that as well. So it confused me a bit for him to reference the cartoon as the gold standard when I know that he doesn’t think that. Perhaps he means in terms of commercial success? I don’t know. In any case, it’s a pretty innocuous comment from a veteran creator and not that big of a deal. Just like what you like and don’t worry about what others like or dislike, as you say.

[@edwardhipkiss281]

Kind of agree with Rob and I certainly admire his honesty. Enjoying X-Force and Wolverine, the rest isn't really working for me. Personally I don't think there's been a truly great X-Men run since Grant Morrison's New X-Men. That's not to say there hasn't been some good stuff since, just not consistently or where I can point to a "great" era that I can recommend to someone new to comics. Carey, Bendis, Lemire and even Rosenberg had their moments, but nothing to stick long in the memory.

[@TheMagnificentMongoSlade]

You have a massive task if you're arguing Liefeld is wrong here. The cartoon created new fans, did the movies--is the current run? I've said X-Men is a dead franchise and I mean it. Only the die hards are still reading it.

[@ThW5]

Come on, what person can ever stop rereading "God Loves Man Kills" when alive in a time like this?! Oh, you mean reading the NEW books, yeah, cannot argue there... though it is still moving too much to be dead, but it seems to be soulless and to have lost all its life, could we agree on "undead" franchise?

[@TheMagnificentMongoSlade]

@@ThW5 A zombie franchise? Yes. There's still enough people mesmerized by 80s and 90s X-Men holding on beyond all hope that this series will finally be great as what they used to read.

[@thechinchillachannel8457]

I have read several of Hickman's titles. At first, I thought he was "great", but I have had this feeling growing for a while now, which is being solidified during "Dawn of X" - that he often writes a bunch of pretentious, meandering, boring nonsense. I have had to skip reading several of the tie-in titles because they were becoming painful to read. I just read X-Men #12 today and it just felt like someone trying too hard to write some grand story. I am going to give "X of Swords" a chance, but , if the story does not really grab me, I may have to just drop this stuff. You nailed it when you talked about the price of collecting this run. This story could have been told in half as many books and been better for it. This is decompression at its worse. They have gone from writing for the trade to writing for the omnibus. And, yes, it is pretty much incomprehensible unless you read almost everything at a minimum.

[@Launchpad05]

I would hardly can the 90's 'X-Men' the peak of the franchise. Maybe it was how alot of people who never followed the X-Men discovered them during the 90's, and did 'The Dark Phoenix' story better than the movies, but it cane at the tail end of the X-Men's peak in popularity. Plus, the animation isn't as good as you remember it. Akom was terrible at animated super heroes. (Especially Jim Lee's X-Men designs) Marvel should've went with Toei, or TMS because they do superhero animation alot better.

[@piratekingcz]

I agree with liefeld the current hickman and company does not understand these characters that have been around for so many years.

[@jbeihl1]

90s X Men is where it’s at

[@giorgiomarte9131]

Personally I’m loving the new X-men era. I started out only reading 3 of the titles and now I’m buying every title. Everyone has their own taste in comics, but I just don’t agree with or can get down with someone constantly just being negative even tho it’s his opinion. That’s just me 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@masonmcdixon9294]

My mom hot me FF 5, and X men 7 as my first 2, liked them but for some reason ( probably age) I found them just ok. I love Avengers, JLA, Teen Titans, of course Batman . They drew your été with the uniformes, many colours and made To work with their namesakes. Then Gen 2 of X Men came and this time many uniformes, many countries, a real Tower of Babel thing, those where the years i was into them. Then Man !!! X Force, X Factor, New Mutants, Amazing XMen X anything.Like Spidey, Bats ,Supe. But even young i did not bite for the endormis. The only comic i looked that did not multiple des LSH. I hot To choose. Imagine buying all the comics every month when you 12,13 or even 16. X Men had some great story lines like in the underground in Warloks, of course Phoenix sans that for some stupid reason they cant get right in movies, the Shiar ones, the skrulls, them Vs everyone lol. Now i watch what you explain the comming comics Will be basés on and decide where my $$ goes.

[@illithidlore]

I love Hickman's run but I think two major things have really hurt it: 1. Covid and the months long delays on comics. 2. Empyre. I haven't seen a single person tell me this was a top 10 event for them. It was largely a forgettable event like Fear Itself or The 12. It also happened right at the start of the X-Men relaunch and really pumped the breaks on all of the momentum that Hickman had been building up. Stop and go momentum from Covid and Empyre have done tremendous damage to the run that I don't believe will be fully appreciated for years to come.

[@TheMrgreenblade]

Gotta ask Perch what is your favorite X men run? Just curious

[@ComicsPerch]

Well, likely the timespan between #105 and #250.

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

Up front, let me say I'm not reading the current run, so I'm basing this on reviews I've been watching on KZbin. I just don't see where they're going with the current take. It feels like they wanted to do an Age of Apocalypse level shakeup, but doing it as the new status quo instead of a limited event. It's like House of X and Powers of X created this interesting scenario and everyone is just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[@doomedhuh]

Rob's right. The excitement is not there in the current comics.

[@spaceknight793]

I would extend that to ALL current comics.

[@anthonypacino716]

I'm sure I'm going to get yelled at for this. And let me say first that I'm a casual X-Men fan, the last run I collected was when they brought the original team to the present. But I think they have run into the same problem that the Legion of Super Heroes have...too many characters, too big. The premise of comics is the characters dont age...but you put them in a school where people grow up and leave, They try to revamp it, fine but then they want to throw 150 characters and all the backstory into it.

[@richmcgee434]

That is certainly one of the problems. How one would go about fixing it without alienating the fan base is beyond me, though.

[@AgentMorgan2010]

Couldn't say, because Joss Wheadon's Astonishing X-Men is where I cut myself off. But I think all X-Men books should try to be Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne's seminal 70s/80s run. Doesn't get any better than that for my money. And the lion's share of those issues were written long before I was even born, so.

[@michaelmorgan7954]

Lob-Hell is the worst it's ever been. but you are right when not good enough is what ruin Claremont's amazing return in 2000

[@rudigerkipferl4479]

Hickman did a good job in those two Minis. Problem is that now that the regular series have started, you just don't get a coherent story any longer if you're just reading X-Men. But the X-books are just not good enough to buy 4-8 of them every month - so I'll just quit. Liefeld is always welcome to stir the pot - he's a comic book celebrity after all and entitled to give his opinion - and isn't he always entertaining 🤣?

[@LsElite4210]

Can’t rly disagree with rob tho that 90’s cartoon was dope imo yeah it had its issues but it still hit the core of those characters and the x line now doesn’t feel that way to me like Wolverine has been good but everything else has been hit or miss

[@itcamefromthenerdcave1669]

Rob is my spirit animal.

[@mightyjoe7149]

He's not wrong. I think they need to destroy the 616 and start all over and reintroduce characters from a fresh start. It would make sense to push the character arcs to more resemble the movie and tv series

[@lukejohnson3715]

I disagree. To drop comparisons to New 52 a lot of problems that Marvel has in the current day would only be cemented in a reboot. Case in point: 123 Spider people occupying the universe. If Marvel rebooted, Spider-man would become the IDW book co-starring Miles and Gwen which I don’t think Spider-man needs. I’m admittedly looking more at comics than film or TV but I also believe that shouldn’t always be the end goal.

[@cray-seacoral]

If anything, they should do something like the Ultimate Universe again and make _those_ characters reflect the movies more. After all, the Ultimate Universe did heavily influence Marvel movies, so they should just do it again. Some people may not like it, but having is separate might let people have their cake and eat it too.

[@31altair]

But the real question is.... Can he draw feet?

[@spaceknight793]

Crazy part is, he didn't need to. Somehow he got away with not knowing how to draw.

[@leejones2113]

I like Hickman's X Men I think it's interesting. I still like Clairmont's X Men better and for me the old testament of the X Men for me. Hickman's is more like the NT.

[@samt5911]

Rob Liefeld is entitled to his opinion as is anyone else. But his words carry more weight because he worked at Marvel during the Claremont/Lee run. He worked on X-Force. Those books were some the best selling comic titles of all time when there was no movie franchise to push fans to comics. That is the era that inspired the X-Men Animated series. It had never been done before and no X-Men Animated show has been received as well since. That X-Men run also led to a long over due toyline and video games. So a very good argument could be made for the commercial success as well as critical success of that run. Marvel is a business after all and money is essential. No one goes into business to fail. I think what Rob is getting at is the writers and artists of the animated show seemed to know the source material and were respectful of it. The Claremont/Lee era was so good that Marvel tried to reintroduced it with X-Men '92. It's beyond opinion really. The newer writers/editors don't seem to be interested in showing any respect to what came before. Claremont showed great respect to the previous era of Len Wein and improved upon it. Likewise Wein respected and improved the X-Men as well. The new stuff doesn't seem interested in that at all. It seems like they want to throw everything out and reinvent X-Men into a ambiguous, gritty, dystopian DC copycat. Now they aren't heroes, they aren't even good guys. They're just mutants for the sake of mutants. It's like the folks at Marvel have been reading too much dark, emotional, personally tortured indie stuff. Stop resetting the universe, stop trying to get darker and darker. It's not working for DC and it's not going to sustain the X-Men. I would not be surprised if Marvel is seeking to dismantle the X-teams completely so that people will no longer associate them with the older, more successful stuff. Take a lesson from the X-Men Animated series. It's okay to change things for a modern audience but don't mess with the essentials. The Animated series appealed to long time fans as well as helping find new ones. Thats how you make money, stay in business, and grow. There are millions of fans out there saying, "Hey, Marvel, I want to give you money but you don't make anything I like anymore." The problem with today's comics is that they don't resemble the movies much. When people watch older X-Men movies or cartoons they could also go to the comics and find many parallels and similarities. Now they can't. That goes for comics in general of course. A kid who is a fan of Thor from the MCU cannot find him in the comics. That's why comic sales suffer. In the old days (even before my time), tv shows, movies, radio dramas, and comic book writers took their cues from one another so that the characters and stories were not drastically different. So when kids listened to the radio drama of Superman at home they could find pretty much the same characters and characteristics in comics even if the stories were unique or not the same continuity. Everyone could make money. The same could be said for the early animated shorts and TV show.

[@jbeihl1]

They fucked up a good formula. Go back to the 90s. Old fashioned philosophical battles and trippy time travel stories

[@shanezielinski7418]

Well there was a cute little reboot by a returning writer - one previously talented bloke who did INCREDIBLE with the Fantastic Four before he stepped away from the Big Two for a number of years. Then the regular series came out and made it absolute crap and everyone was a Ghola (clone of a dead personality) with next to no risk and nothing worth reading, except for that assassination crew that took out Xavier. Or in simple terms, Rob Liefeld is right - but lets be honest, it has been TWENTY FIVE YEARS, that's a quarter of a century, since its been good (actually Age Of Apocalypse was its last hurrah!). That hasn't anything to do with politics.... When Claremont decided to finish up, he should have written a conclusion to finish it all off for good. Yep. Finish it up, instead of leaving in a vegetable state (sums up the Pod People concept). If Marvel decided to bring it back then whatever, but he should have ended it - because everyone would have gotten their end, and it would be a definitive break. Missing 4 issues of the entire volume 1 and volume 2... X-MEN is dead. Let it die.

[@Ash-ep1nz]

DAWN OF X titles suck though. Many who loved Hox & Pox have almost given up on Dawn Of X. And I am not making things up. Most readers I meet genuinely don't care what is going on with X-Men. Marvel ruined Hickman's vision by quickly capitalising on the success of HOX / POX. And Hickman himself RUINED Dawn of X by introducing polyamorous relationships. Hinting wolverine and Cyclops are boning each other. None of the main X-Men characters in Dawn of X are acting like themselves. They are also acting villainous which is not the X-Men we grew up with. They are heros in every sense and their relationships back then had meaning. Now they are acting like prostitutes. That's the biggest turn off and why the interest has waned off after HOX POX. I agree with LIEFELD here, 90's X-Men and Claremont's run will always be SUPERIOR.

[@eetretsim]

I remember when Byrne said the original 5 X-Men were “the real” ones. It’s always a generation gap.

[@eetretsim]

Also, I take exception to saying that only casual/ non-lifelong X-Men readers think X-Men is the best it’s ever been now. I am a lifelong reader and I love the attention to detail & continuity that Hickman gives. If he retcons something (Moira, The Technarchy, Apocalypse, Krakoa, Sinister), he will point it out obviously, instead of ignoring inconvenient continuity. I get that lifelong readers like myself generally idealize their “peak” of comics, which honestly was probably at a formative or leisurely part of life, when escapist literature added to a maturing young life, rather than simply being a release from adult worries.

[@ghettoninja82]

It seems kind of unfair to compare Claremonts X-Men run (or really any X-Men comic book series) to the 90s cartoon (or really any movies, or any medium outside of comics). I mean yeah they can be compared of course but I just mean in context of what u talking about in this video. The cartoon was like a halfhour Saturday morning series aimed at children, a different demographic from the comic which was primarily target for young adult. It was great for what the creators had to work with and deal with.

[@panthergod]

I've read nearly every X-Men/Mutants comic ever published in chronological order and... Hickmans run is magnificent IF you appreciate foward story progression, Hard Futurism, and thematic resonance.. over the same repetitive storybeats and replays if old storylines and Nostalgic fan service over everything....

[@MrGabeHernandez]

Liefeld lacks tact but it's hard deny his place in comics history and the weight of his opinion. That said, X-Men (and nearly every other title) suffers from the problem of not knowing its audience. Once again: "Who is this for?"

[@richmcgee434]

I deny his place in comics history and the weight of his opinion. Guy's a hack artist, a lousy writer, and a bloviating ninny. That wasn't hard at all.

[@johnebejer]

Agreed Age Of X-man was the worst.

[@MrPonytron]

Hickman's run on X-Men is just kinda blah

[@ferrarriohh]

This whole Hickman X-Era comes off as an Age of X or Secret Wars 2015 micro event. I agree with Rob 100%

[@dannycruz5446]

Is there some kind of animosity between Liefeld and Fabian Nicieza? On his podcast, Rob almost never refers to him by name, always as the scripter.

[@fmc291]

I mean, he’s not wrong.

[@masdox27]

I agree with Rob

[@ronerbman22]

90's X-Men are the best.

[@cruddddddddddddddd]

Tt. X-Men Red was better than Dawn of X? Lmao. Ridiculous. I wouldn’t say this is the best the x books have ever been-the run isn’t finished yet, and it’s how it’s ends, not how it begins. This is leagues better than the hammer-fisted trash of two years ago. Not even in the same ballpark.

[@Catpower99]

I really prefer X-men Red than Dawn Of X comics, only Wolverine and x-force are good and they are violent/cinical.

[@sensei-lr4cj]

Rob is such a tool, he's pissed that Major-X isn't part of the current Summers family line. 90's era sucked balls with a few exceptions, post 90' era writers are much2 better than those overrated has been hacks. The animated series sucked especially after watching Batman TAS. Lastly, Chris Claremont is overrated as hell, hard to read his works with speech bubbles popping up everywhere. The only people who love the Claremont-Byrne era are the people who grew up reading those books, the best X books for new readers now are Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, Morrison's New X-Men and Hickman's. Most of all, where was Rob when the X books were all over the place a few years ago, he didn't say shit back then. Now that the X books are popular again he had to chime in lol. Old man yelling at clouds meme.

[@richmcgee434]

To be fair, most things from that era (and a fair amount of later stuff) look pretty goddamn terrible when you compare them to Batman TAS.

[@INFERNO95]

Only batman fans think batman TAS great. Two face and freeze were the only well written villains. The other villains were treated as lame villains of the week. Joker appear in way too many episodes and Harley Quinn was so damn annoying. X-men TAS had better stories, more interesting characters and the villains were treated better too. Magneto was a more developed villain then all the villains from batman TAS put together. Even spider man TAS and superman TAS were better then batman TAS. 80 comics were not perfect, some of the stories from the 80 are overrated like the killing joke. 90 comics were good until the late 90s when things went downhill. I doubt people who take shot at 90s comics read most of the books. They just trash that era of comics cause it the popular thing to do on the net.

[@INFERNO95]

@@richmcgee434 And what cartoons did you watch that were so bad that made batman TAS so god like?

[@sensei-lr4cj]

@@INFERNO95 xmen TAS has the one of the worst voice acting and amimations, I was 10 when I watched Batman TAS and even I could tell the voice acting and animation was much2 better than X-MenTAS. Also, Jim Lee's costumes haven't stood the test of time.

[@lukejohnson3715]

Rob just reminds me why I’m not an X-men fan and why I never want to be. I’ve read all the Dark Phoenix and Days of Future Past and all the other big storylines and they never really got past “it’s fine,” for me. I enjoy X-men stuff fine but I don’t think it’s the be all end all of Marvel or the comic equivalent of the Holy Bible. X-men fans seem way too rabid and I don’t like interacting with them because it’s X-men’s the best thing ever or you’re wrong (I say this as a Transformers fan and they’re bad too). I just don’t understand this idea that X-men is the true backbone of Marvel and everything else (including Spider-man) is just fodder. I agree X-men writers should learn what made the franchise great, but I think that of anybody taking the reins of any franchise. I don’t want some boob who never saw Superman TAS to be writing Action Comics. This has been overall nonproductive so I’ll conclude with this: 90s X-men isn’t even the best X-men cartoon.

[@ThW5]

I do, it's quite simple: The X-men are of the important teams Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-men and maybe Defenders, the only team which (at least when written well) has an ideological backbone, the Avengers, Defenders, Runaways, Heroes for Hire just seem to be thrown together by fate(editors) and the Fantastic Four is a family, but the X-men are an action group fighting fantasy racism associated with a school for people with special abilities, special powers and special needs. They have a dream, wether they have to move to a new country or slowly see their original members fall and be replaced several times, they have the potential to withstand the centuries as the X-men, ever changing, generation after generation of the same team. The team and the school have to be open for people of all backgrounds and other identities, in a way they live (or at least try) MLK's dream in a purefied, platonic version, not limited to a country or a language or a common culture: They are heroes with a dream, a cause and a mission because THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY, and they are heroes. Their message is EVERYBODY has the right to be one's self, and that is worth fighting for. If you remove that ideological backbone, Marvel past the Silver Age is basically just DC with other characters, the X-men with their characteristic trait being having been born that way, are essential to the Marvel feel of the Marvel universe, as is, in a somewhat lesser way, the Fantastic Four. Spider-Man is a flag-ship character, sure, but set a new series in Austin, Texas and Spider-Man becomes unimportant, much more so than the FF or the X-men...

[@lukejohnson3715]

ThW5 This sounds like the most interesting X-men book I never read. Sounds like it would be a great Life Story book like Zdarsky did with Spider-man.

[@ThW5]

It's to a degree in every book written by anybody who understands the X-men... They are often hard to find, but if you were lucky, you have to care for those characters.

[@BiggestDawgEver]

As if Rob Liefeld has the credibility to critique anyone. What exactly did he accomplish in the X-office during the 90's anyway? He came in on a flailing New Mutants(under Louise Simonson) when the book was creatively at the mercy of editorial decisions made on Uncanny X-MEN and X-FACTOR. His contribution was badly recycled plot elements from Terminator and Highlander movies and terrible artwork that got worse when inkers stopped correcting him. Literally everything he has created has only gotten better when left to people with actual talent to fix. It's not really surprising that even now, his paper thin personal depth thinks that the watered down, rushed narratives of the cartoon are the pinnacle of X-Men greatness.

[@Justice4All1983]

Get out of the 90s, Liefeld.

[@ItachiUchiha-ut6xj]

I agree with Liefeld. The 90's cartoon is not the pinnacle ofthe X-Men but it is fantastic. Hickman's run has none of the charm, interesting team dynamics, character authenticity and fun of the cartoon. What a waste!

[@aaronanglea]

Rob isn't wrong

[@UelCarter]

don't take this so serious. just dumb. People make their living on this stuff. People spend their money on this stuff. People spend their TIME on this.

[@zerozaku1468]

Rob Liefeld is the problematic Drunk uncle or The Drug addicted relitive that no one likes at the family cookout

[@superthorc6894]

Idk Rob I know some x-men fans who hated the 90s cartoons mostly because it was dated Kind like you are Expect one had an excuse while the other is you

[@ThW5]

Well, I sort of liked it, in the "Oh they use Jubilee as the Kitty in Pryde of the X-men, oh that's how they do the Juggernaut," it was a fresh adaptation of old stories, a feast of recognition, looking for cameos in group scenes and all that, and as such I liked them much better than either the movies or Rob Liefeld's scratchings" But they were ADAPTATIONS of good stories... Not that I disagree that giving the X-men team a severe X-men-ology training camp wouldnoy be a bad thing, but they should not start in the 90's. That's way too late.

[@alexandrebelinge8996]

I think Rob is a bit of a diva ! Always good for a laugh on twitter.

[@gardnerunderhill3661]

For a man who can’t draw feet and has a piss poor grasp of basic anatomy, Rob is full of himself. I watched the 90’’s cartoon during its original run. It was ok. X-Men Evolution was a better cartoon in my opinion. (My opinion is many things, humble it is not.) It was not the greatest example of the X-Men. For me personally, the greatest example of the X-men was the Claremont run. All the different variations of the X-Men mentioned in this video are one reason I don’t get into the idea of unbroken continuity. Each new X-Men title was just that. A new version of existing characters placed into new situations and environments. There is a meta continuity that is carried over from series to series. But each new series has a new continuity unique to that series. When that series ends, it’s continuity ends with it. Like shampoo - Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

[@DevaNeeramanii]

Imo... 1: The cartoon was trash and did not age well, at all. So... 2: Thank the Goddess HiX-Man and Co. while referencing the past, they're not living in/beholden to the past. 3: Liefeld is just looking to "ride the coat-tails" of this current era, trying to hold on to some semblance of relevance and..."winning?"