The Time Aquaman Comics Went Too Far

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In the 1970s, writer David Michelinie briefly took over the Aquaman comics. This episode discusses Michelinie's work on books like Iron Man and Amazing Spider-Man as well as his Aquaman run. It examines his techniques and how he worked in more adult themes for superhero comics but how what he did with Aquababy and Black Manta was probably too depressing.

[@temmere]

I've got this storyline in trade paperback and it's honestly shocking even on the second or third read. What makes it even worse is that, in subsequent issues, Mera goes on a little quest that makes it seem like they might be able to get Arthur, Jr., back, and in the end she just fails. They give you that little bit of hope and then it's dashed, like hitting you with the tragedy all over again. Whether the storyline is "too" dark is hard to say, but it's definitely one of the darkest.

[@MultipleMike-tl2ty]

It is one of the darkest Aquaman stories for sure. It is also one of the very best.

[@jonny9884]

I believe it is one of the best as well, and great artwork, too. I had it in a color trade, but up-graded to an Over-sized Hardcover Deluxe Edition.

[@juniorjames7076]

@@jonny9884 Jim Aparo was my favorite artists (Brave & the Bold, early The Outsiders), and his art looks fantastic no matter who inks him. I always looked forward to seeing how a guest inker would make Aparo look.

[@jonny9884]

@juniorjames7076 One of mine as well back then. His Spectre were the first comics I ever bought.

[@qty1315]

@@MultipleMike-tl2ty The bar isn't set that high for Aquaman stories, though. Daredevil has Born Again, Spider-Man has Kraven's Last Hunt, Batman has The Killing Joke, Superman has All-Star Superman. Aquaman has the story where he's too late to save his son from suffocating as the 'definitive' Aquaman story amongst casual and hardcore fans, to the point where the first thing people assume whenever they see his son is involved along with Black Manta (like with the new movie) is "Yeah, the kid is gonna go bye-bye." That's pretty depressing when you think about it. People aren't even aware if he had a redemption arc or not. As far as people know, the son went bye-bye, he was sad for a while, and then eventually got over it or something. It's not the best legacy for a superhero amongst mainstream comic fans. Almost every other popular superhero is defined by their triumphs, Aquaman is defined by his greatest failure.

[@calvinkatt662]

The Bronze Age really was the "Kill you loved ones" era in comics. On top of Arthur J.r. , you mentioned the biggest death of the age - Gwen Stacy. In addition to those two, Wonder Woman's boyfriend Steve Trevor was killed in 1969, Namor's love interest Lady Dorma was murdered in 1971, and there were no less than three significant death's in 1979 alone - Captain America's girlfriend Sharon Carter, The Flash's wife Iris West-Allen and Batman's former love interest Batwoman (Kathy Kane). I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple.

[@tylerthell4957]

It's not just your nostalgia for Michelini. Last year I challenged myself to read every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, and Michelini's run was the most overall enjoyable. Which is saying something when he had nearly 100 issues

[@Gatorade69]

While I haven't read his entire run I really enjoy that era of Spider-Man.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

It has also been my plan for a while now to read every ASM issue. I plan to stop at issue 700, right before Superior, to not overwhelm myself. Will you continue further than that?

[@saidi7975]

Well, Michelinie's Spidey is really where I loved the webhead, his wife and his foes !

[@novadeaf]

I think the main issue with Michelinie is not that he goes too dark but the fact that he goes dark and then thinks he can solve everything in a couple pages "cause it's comics!". He did write the Demon in a Bottle story and yes it was groundbreaking but the problem with that story is that by the end of its 22 pages Tony seems already recovered from the addiction. I think Dennis O'Neil made a much more in-depth and realistic and intriguing representation of alcoholism when he began writing Iron Man right after Michelinie left and turned Tony back into an addict and then slowly brought him back to sobriety in something like two plus years worth of stories. Same with Ms. Marvel. Michelinie really thought he could give her a misterious pregnancy, something that would violate her own body and shock her to the core and then solve it within a single issue?? That's crazy.

[@Woodclaw]

It would be interesting to discover if this was a foible of the writer or an editorial mandate of the time.

[@SimonMoon5]

To be fair, almost everything back then was handled in one issue (or occasionally two or three). The strangest things would happen to Superman or his supporting cast and they'd be completely over it by the next issue. Of course, the Superman comics were excessively silly so nobody expected lingering plot elements. Like, Lois Lane would decide to marry some random guy... and then she'd find out a reason not to marry him... and she's still emotionally fine the next issue (or as emotionally fine as she ever was) and Superman would never harbor any ill will towards his girlfriend who keeps trying to marry other guys. But certainly the Marvel titles were different than that and as for Aquaman... well, usually Aquaman didn't have such drastic things happening in his stories other than permanent things (like, oh, now Aqualad exists... and Mera exists... and Aquaman is marrying Mera).

[@Nightman221k]

He sounds like he just plays with his toys and gets bored at the end and is like “and then Carol … eh, whatever. She decides to live happily ever after with the rapist baby she birthed!”

[@Woodclaw]

@@Nightman221k if you look at Shooter's writing career, he had something of an obsession for the idea of a person with god-like powers slowly starting to ignore morality and either doing some soul-searching while causing havoc or progressively ignoring the consequences of their own actions. He did so with Michael Korvac on the Avengers, then this whole thing with Carol's son, the Beyonder during Secret Wars, Starbrand in the New Universe and Solar in the original Valiant Universe.

[@davidbjacobs3598]

I don't know that it's fair to blame Avengers 200 on Michelinie. IIRC, there are like four credited writers and they all say it wasn't their fault. The idea from up top was that the Avengers was too big a team now, and they wanted to cut someone out, and Carol was the most recent addition so that's why she got the boot. As for who came up with that God-awful story... I have no idea. I'd wager it's the result of a bunch of writers spitballing off each other and writing by committee.

[@jamesbezecny7745]

In my opinion, Michelinie did the whole "super heroes as soap opera" schtick the best out of the bronze age writers. He didn't go so melodramatic on the character work that I was wondering when people were going to start punching each other again, but still hit the watercooler gossip/discussion point where people would theorize about where the drama was going. I'm kind of surprised he's never worked on X-Men.

[@Robocopnik]

As grim as it is, having him get knocked out by a hammerhead shark is kind of hilarious.

[@fusionspace175]

I would say that it did pay off, in long term character growth. I first knew Aquaman on Super Friends, but in the comics the version I knew best was the Peter David hook hand one. Even in Time and Tide, before the hand loss, his Arthur is awkward and grumpy, nothing at all like most bland heroes of the time, and that made him interesting. I love the burned-out cop persona he has, who cares little for manners or even the law of the surface world, and I always thought that gruff version truly began to grow with the death of Aquababy. He has been worn down by a life of tragedy, and I don't think his journey would work as well without that horrible event. Just as Green Arrow didn't truly distinguish himself as a character until his life was destroyed by losing his fortune, I don't think the modern Aquaman began to form until then.

[@juniorjames7076]

I agree. To me, he was always an "understandable" asshole. I started reading DC in the early 1980s and discovered Aquaman through various backups. The storyline about his son dying was still fresh and being mentioned frequently. In the JLA, Superman was the goofy boyscout, Green Arrow cocky and smug, Batman grim and dark, and Aquaman arrogant king who could be sometimes rude. When the JLA temporarily broke up and relocated to Detroit, Michigan (damn, that storyline actually happened!?!? Man, I miss the 1980s!) his personality was the perfect fit for that era.

[@fusionspace175]

@@juniorjames7076 I first got really interested when Peter had him attack a naval base to rescue dolphin. Not only his personality but his loyalties were unique, and set him apart. I didn't dig the aliens under Atlantis so much, but I can admire what he was going for with the whole arc.

[@TevyaSmolka]

I think killing off aquaman baby was a kind of a bold move but the follow ups stories really didn’t help sadly.

[@user-be7tc2bd6e]

Thanks for bringing Michelinie's long career to our attention,100 issue run is awesome and shows consistenty.I also LOVE that old school art-work of Jim Aparo ( RIP: Mr Aparo )good stuff,another old school artist forgotten about,no one ever does a segment on his work/history.Sorta like Dan Jurgens,a very solid artist who's been working in comics since the 1980s,penciled the Death of Superman which sold 6 million copies.

[@JamesBurrTV]

Aparo did the definitive Batman, IMO.

[@user-be7tc2bd6e]

@@JamesBurrTV AGREED.He's not talked about much at all ( RIP: Mr Aparo ) there're no books dedicated to his art and personal history.But,he was a very good draftsman.

[@juniorjames7076]

@@JamesBurrTV Absolutely!! Jim Aparo was a God, and his artwork looked fantastic no matter who inked his work!! Brave & the Bold immediately became my favorite title because of him, as did Batman and the Outsiders later. Aparo did a better job drawing the Titans than Perez did drawing The Outsiders when they had a crossover. Damn, I miss comics in the '80s!

[@Blackbird2004]

I am so happy that you have made a video about this topic. I agree that it is a VERY dark topic for Aquaman, but I have two disagreements. First, it is arguable that losing parents, girlfriends or a child are all equally dark. Secondly we would never get Peter David's Aquaman without the death of Aquababy. But excellent video! Thanks for posting this!

[@Mokkari77]

I mean the Carol thing was because Jim Shooter nixed the original story where her pregnancy with a Kree hybrid was caused by the Supreme Intelligence because it was too similar to a recent WHAT IF.

[@notavailable2590]

Now she is a Kree hybrid.

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

And we also don't know who wrote what part of that story. I don't think it's fair to pin on Michelinie. The editor had final say and let it go.

[@LowellLucasJr.]

Michelini may have written some of the darkest Aquaman stories, but thanks to you I now appreciate what he did for Spider-Man and what I loved about that era so damn much! Thank you for this wonderful video and have a happy holiday my friend❤

[@belgiumcomics2537]

Once again Chris i praise you for how well informed your video's on comic book history are.

[@ericnolen-weathington7919]

Aquaman was one of only a handful of characters published continuously from the late ’40s through the ’60s. During his first solo title, Nick Cardy drew 32 of the first 39 issues, never missing more than two issues in a row. Jim Aparo took over from him and drew the series until it was cancelled at issue #56, despite decent sales. The series was bimonthly, so you’re talking a nearly 20-year-long run with just two artists and a handful of fill-ins. That’s the model of consistency. The second solo title was cancelled because of the DC Implosion, so you can’t really fault that one, and even then Aquaman was immediately shuffled back into Adventure Comics. As for the story itself, personally I think it was a Paul Levitz decision, not a Michelinie proposal. Levitz had been writing and then plotting the series for other writers until just a few issues before this storyline began, and he was still being credited as “Story Editor” rather than assistant editor when this issue came out. Considering this, as well as Michelinie being so inexperienced at this point, I'm pretty confident this was the case.

[@davidknight2423]

Hard to prove, but workable assumptions.

[@DrPluton]

I read this TPB a could years back. One of the worst bits is that Aqualad heavily implies that Aquaman could have saved Aquababy (never had a name until he died as Arthur Curry Jr.) if he hadn't immediately given chase after Black Manta for revenge.

[@shoresean1237]

He gained nothing from this save a loop of stories wherein Mera goes increasingly yandere, Manta taunts him about it absent Joker immunity, and he grieves while grieving. So here's a question: Given the umpteen (and for once the fictional number actually fits) reboots and restarts DC has had over the over four decades since that issue, why oh why has no one undone this, except JL Animated?

[@jefftonsman]

It happened who cares. And the jl cartoon didn't do anything shut it

[@sethleoric2598]

I think one of the things about this story is how almost out of left field it was, like all of it happened in one story, i think the death of Aquababy could have worked very well (or better depending on your taste) if it was a whole "arc" no phonecalls or anything.

[@nickdirienzo2849]

Merry Chris-mas and a happy new year to all the Tropes out there!

[@kylecarter1599]

I guess I'm the only one who wanted Aquaman 2 to go this far...

[@P0rk_Sinigang]

Petty dickhead Black Manta is just so fun. Like, greeting the surviving parent of the infanticide you committed with, "How's the family?" is WILD. So cartoonishly evil, so disgustingly spiteful, so damn hilarious.

[@jonath1982]

You're the only one who wanted Aquaman 2, lol

[@zenoblues7787]

I have never seen a movie where they kill the baby. I never feel any tension when a baby is threatened. They're not doing it. Nobody ever does it.

[@kylecarter1599]

@jonath1982 I didn't want Aquaman 2. But since we got it the kid should have died.

[@P0rk_Sinigang]

@@jonath1982 No, that's me. I wanted Aquaman 2. James Wan makes really entertaining stupid movies.

[@MintHunterComics]

One of favorite arcs tbh - thanks for covering this! shoutout to my fav youtube channel for like 5 years running now

[@Nightman221k]

Thanks to Casually Comics spotlighting the story where Arthur and Mera fought so hard for their baby before he was born, I feel even sadder about Aquababy dying. 😢

[@darrellludlow]

I don't know about any other comic book channels, but I have learned so many interesting backstories about the industry and the characters from your videos. Keep up the good work.

[@dmonvisigoth1651]

I don't think it's too far. I love the juxtaposition of such elements as dinner with an Octopus with the death of a child. That's the kind of shit that makes comics so multifaceted and nuanced. Life is much the same way. You never know when things will go from peachy keen to tragic, and I like to see this reflected in all forms of literature, from comic books to proper literature. It allows one to relate to the character as though they are a real person who deals with things that we all must from time to time. And while it does seem so much darker in the context of a character like Aquaman, the point is made nonetheless and things like this is what led to Arthur Curry being such a badass. Relatability.

[@MacPhuck]

I really enjoyed this story as a youngster in the 70's. Looking at the breadth of his career, seems to me Michelinie doesn't shy away from difficult truths, like the fact that losing a child is something that a couple might just not get over. It also makes me think that the Avengers being cool with Carol's kidnapping might not have been something he would have gone wtih. Feels like Shooter, to me.

[@Shinmsl]

I remember finding out about Arthur loosing his baby in a very roundabout way , I think it was referenced in a flashback in "Identity Crisis" , and was very shocked that happenned , specially to Aquaman, that due to his appearance in the Super Friends cartoon, and even later by Cartoon Network sort of turning him into a meme (before that was even a thing) , like he was the goofiest character of the JLA you could imagine specially pre-crisis that he was so weak and cookie-cutter. Michellini does like to go dark sometimes, some of those Carnage stories had Peter Parker a bit of emo XD Like I understand he went to add a bit of melodrama, but to me it didn't always work. Makes me wonder how much influence the work of his collaborators like Editors and artists influenced his work. I think the best of his creativity was his contributions to Iron-man, because as much as I love Spidey, I think Iron-man was in need of much development, both the character and his supporting cast, and all of his work became a staple on the character's story. Iron-man went from being sort of a boring, aloof and unrelatable character , to basically the basis of everything the MCU used to create their super popular version of the character.

[@drewgeraci8434]

Just to nitpick, the different armors were Bob Layton's ideas and designs. He compared it to different cars for different races, like Nascar and Formula race cars.

[@ChimBrouer]

Have a nice Christmas and I am looking forward for your upcoming videos in 2024. Yours is the best comic art KZbin channel I follow. Wish you all the best and a healthy new year.

[@seenthefuture86]

I recommend the Steve Skeates Aquaman run, collections-Deadly Waters & Search for Mera, sort of a bridge between goofy silver age Aquaman and dark bronze age Aquaman.

[@PeculiarNotions]

His run on Spider-Man was one of my favorites.

[@vincentimbesi3947]

Very enjoyable video. I always felt the death was uncalled for as well. There wasn’t any type of major payoff afterwards just like you mentioned.

[@AmicusRyelei]

I'm not overly big on Fish-Man's stories but doesn't this dark character development lead to an amazing zinger much later on when Black-Manta reappears out of nowhere and asks "How's the wife and kid?"?

[@antshield]

Merry Christmas to you and your family Chris!

[@timnoble1385]

Maybe Aquababy had it coming. Black Manta just did what everyone else wanted to do!

[@davidknight2423]

I was a kid, just a few years into reading comics when this story-line was the talk of the spinner racks. It was comics catching us off guard, something happened beyond the normal super-hero formula. Me and my friends actually FELT something for a comic character. We dug it immensely. It was going somewhere. For the time, it was groundbreaking, it was cool, and for the time kids reading Aquaman were getting non-Aquaman readers to read them. And it made sense, Batman had returned to a certain approximation of 'realism' after all that camp, Green Lantern and Green Arrow had dealt with issues, and finally somebody was taking Aquaman seriously. I don't think it was too dark, or too far. Looking back it WOULD have been nice for there to have been an ongoing follow-up, but for how comics were written at that time it was good. When Red Ryan was killed in the Challengers Of The Unknown (which I read in used copies, missing it in real time by a few years) there were some fans who were outraged, most were impressed, but again, how comics were written then, it was referenced on occasion but it wasn't dwelt on, as modern comic writers would write and modern comic readers would expect. Of course when they brought him back a year later, a lot of readers gave up on the book as too hokey, even for comics. That's what we got from peoples' older brothers... The prime time cartoons making fun of Aquaman were making fun of the Superfriends character; no way they were making fun of the comic character. We HATED the portrayal of Aquaman in the cartoons. As much as we disagree I liked your video and how you delivered your views, as well as all the respect shown to Micheline.

[@thomasreynolds3805]

I started reading comics around the time of these stories. Jim aparo was never better and my favorite all time Aquaman artist. I loved the story because for me it was super unique at that time in the 70s.

[@CliffordNY]

Michelini's work has always been groundbreaking. This was some EXCELLENT comic book history once again sir. 👏

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

I don't have anything against the story with the baby being killed. It's awful for sure but I think, especially for the time, it was interesting to show actual consequences of solving so many issues with violence. For as much as I enjoy superhero comics, very little is done in that vein even today, or even much discussion of the fact that most of the heroes solve their problems with violence. If it were the Punisher that, at least in the 80s, showed that extreme violence was a legitimate solution, then I'd say it was too dark.

[@Sammmmmmmm617]

Great video as always. I always heard about Aquamans son being killed by Black Manta, but seeing it is honestly crazy.

[@gregdavidcraft]

David Michelinie’s run on Star Wars bridging the time between Empire and Jedi was fantastic. He knew exactly how to expand on the lore without stepping on Lucas’ toes. I actually prefer that run to Return of the Jedi. They’re still some of my favorite Star Wars stories of all time. Having Walt Simonson on art duties didn’t hurt.

[@redarrow884]

I recently got a bunch of adventure comics and I loved the Aquaman stories.

[@armandmuniz97]

One of my favorite authors! Thanks for this!

[@MultipleMike-tl2ty]

I vehemently disagree with you on this one. Death of the Prince was and still is one of best Aquaman stories of all time. It is incredibly sad, dark, and tragic. It is an example of what could happen to someone who was King and also a superhero. Family members of these people, including infants, are always in danger of being targeted by their enemies. The story had serious lasting consequences for Aquaman’s marriage and it showed readers just how frightening Black Manta was, establishing him as Arthur Curry’s mortal enemy. This makes it one of the singular most important arcs in Aquaman’s history, and essential reading if anyone asks me to give recommendations. You might think DC went too far with killing off the baby, and many others might agree with you. That is fine. I commend DC for having the guts to do this with Aquaman and the end result is a very memorable storyline that still resonates with me today.

[@MyFirewing]

thanks for the pre christmas video chris! you’re the best dude i love these videos. been a fan since the brat pack video

[@davidmoran2296]

Geez I love comics from the 70s! Anybody could die and the stories were off the wall.

[@reichen609]

Off-tangent: Hmm, I like this guy. He seems like a very wholesome superhero enthusiast. So refreshing, especially with all the toxic, heinous fandoms everywhere. I just clicked on this video as it was recommended in my downloads tab. Nice! _Kind people are so underrated._

[@kilgoretrout413]

Merry Christmas 🎄 ❤Chris and everyone else ❤ This channel has helped me through some rough times this year and I know I’m not the only one ❤❤❤❤❤

[@lemonherb1]

I heard some test screenings from earlier versions did feature the death of Arthur Jr and test audiences walked out of the screening. That supposedly led to some of the many reshoots for the movie. Considering how often they did reshoots and changed the story, I'm curious if the movie felt like it made sense from beginning to end

[@Rabbitlord108]

Remembering that there was a comic storyline where Tony dealt with alcoholism is why it's irritating to remember that during a scene in Civil War II. He & Carol Danvers (Another Marvel character that's dealt with alcoholism in the past) talk about getting drinks.

[@Tony-oh]

CW2 pissed me off given that Tony was the one who tried to help Carol with her struggles with alcoholism

[@Rabbitlord108]

@@Tony-oh Yeah that's one of the biggest reasons why that scene is wrong on so many levels.

[@jefftonsman]

​@@Rabbitlord108why is it wrong lol

[@Rabbitlord108]

@@jefftonsman Because after dealing with something like alcoholism. Hearing them talk about getting drinks makes me feel sick.

[@tomyoung9834]

Loved his work back in the day!

[@JW666]

Merry Christmas, Chris 🎄🙂

[@juniorjames7076]

The 1980s was the LAST Golden Age of mainstream (Marvel & DC) comics. By the late '90s, Marvel, DC and Image had declined to garbage, while manga, independent and foreign published graphic novel titles took over.

[@15aia5]

I love your work and this channel my fav video this year had to be the talk about the guy from fornite, happy new year everyone, there's is hope in kindness don't give up

[@wells5150]

Cool. I was unaware most of my favorite arcs were written by the same person! I love this arc of Aquaman!

[@SKIP-yj3xp]

I have all of these issues plus the hardcover. This is my favorite Aquaman storyline, because it made people stop thinking of Aquaman as a C-level hero. The Jim Aparo art was a major selling point for me, he also did great work with Batman and Aquaman in a team-up in the Brave and Bold.

[@SigmaSal9]

I was just discussing this Aquaman event with my family this morning.

[@expressoric]

I remember David Micheline on "Swamp Thing" with artist Nestor Redondo. I thought his scripting was very good and it was still one of the best DC comics away from Marvel at the time, which were my favourites then.

[@giversinner971]

You’re such a gem on YT. Please never stop.

[@dominusfornax]

I'll bet that the octopus' name "Topo" was an homage to Topo Gigio, the puppet made famous in america on the Ed Sullivan show.

[@BingBingTheClown]

I feel like I haven’t seen your channel in a minute. Great to see you on my feed again, I love this channel

[@Arrowdodger]

I do agree it's a little much. Like, had they just had Arthur Jr. harmed, maybe comatose even, would have probably been plenty, but yeah, this is still a touch too far.

[@jessepearson557]

Great episode thanks for highlighting the amazing work of Michelinie - absolute genius writer! 😎👍

[@Impulse725]

Great episode Chris! It’s something that the Justice Department League animated series adapted this by having .aquaman cut off his own hand to save his son and that was lightening up the story.

[@bryanconnors333]

Still think that the late '60s Flemation...ahem....Filmation cartoons are what put Aquaman into the general conscience. Don't get me wrong, I always liked the character. It's just the DC writers and editors really seemed not to be able to put a thumb on him until the '80s (More savage, lopped-off hand, etc). And what's so wrong with having the power to command all sea life, anyway? (we've all seen the memes). Anyway, just some thoughts. Cheers, Chris.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Excellent stuff Chris

[@skatemonk]

I haven't seen the second Aquaman movie yet, but the first one bothered me a bit in the way they move and throw things around underwater, with most of it seeming like it's moving through air. You just can't throw something 30 feet in water and have it move the same. Sub-Mariner's appearance in Black Panther 2 on the other hand, really looks like it's underwater. The lighting and motion is just different, and looks much better I think.

[@rodmoore1577]

I enjoyed your video and whether he went too far is an opinion that is different from person to person BUT here we are STILL TALKING about this story in 2023! Comics were changing in the 70s. Books were getting away from the goofiness of the 60s. They were starting to become darker and dealing with various issues that the 60s books wouldn't think about touching. I got the hardcover version a few years ago. I had a few of the books back in the 70s but the hardcover put all the books together and made it an interesting read. Thanks for the great video

[@JamesBurrTV]

It's funny, back when I was reading these comics in the 80s. Michelinie was a name I was familiar with but I couldn't name you a comic he wrote on. He certainly wasn't a superstar like Claremont or Byrne.Yet I have so MANY of those comics that you show. It's just odd that I clearly enjoyed a lot of his work but not enough to learn "Who wrote this?" and then keep an eye out for them.

[@MariaVosa]

Maaaaan, I didn't think a Michelinie story could get worse than the Carol Danvers one, but hoooo boy! I'd say one of the worst consequences of that decision is making Black Manta, that was only just before revealed as a Black man fighting for his oppressed people - making him an interestingly complex villain - into completely irredeamable. It was a stupid deicision. But it is interesting to see the seeds for the edgier 90s DC/Marvel comics being sown in the 70s.

[@MelMelodyWerner]

honestly, I think it also paints Aquaman as being pretty monstrous in his own way. for the same reason that recent attempts to counter critiques that Batman just goes around beating up poor, desperate people (I'm looking at you, New 52 run) just end up drawing more attention to those aspects of the character-and how the reworks are just obsessed with impotently defending this fictional character from critical analysis. now I'm wondering, "okay, why isn't this dude helping give these people shelter? he's the king of the seas and can talk to marine life, he could be solving this issue." I respect a big swing, but the lack of thematic follow-through makes for a miss.

[@eddiejoewalt7746]

the Carol Danvers one from Avengers 200 was done by JIM SHOOTER! UPDATE: i didn't know he was one of the writers!

[@Woodclaw]

@@eddiejoewalt7746 according to some sources Shooter penned the outline and I can see some of his obsessions with transhuman morality bleeding into that story. It's also interesting that, in the issues that followed, Micheline strongly implied that the Avengers were actually mind-controlled into agreeing/ignoring to what amounted to the rape of Carol Danvers.

[@kingbeauregard]

@@MelMelodyWerner"for the same reason that recent attempts to counter critiques that Batman just goes around beating up poor, desperate people" It's a dumb critique anyway. I've never seen Batman go after someone whose crime was stealing groceries; more than anything he goes after violent street criminals. They aren't "poor, desperate people"; they have chosen violence, emphasis on the word "chosen". He'll also go after violent wealthy people and violent supervillains too, so the common denominator is violence, not poverty. And as for poverty, that's more Bruce Wayne's department. The charitable works of the Wayne Foundation, the good jobs and convict-friendly hiring policies of WayneTech, and Bruce's efforts to influence Gotham's high society are all documented at length in the comics. Anyone who is actually reading the comics knows that Bruce is doing what he can to fight poverty, but even he can't fix it all. I know why people go for that critique though, even though it doesn't begin to hold up. Time was, people would read fictional stories about heroic characters, and they'd think to themselves, "maybe I should be more like them". But these days, people look at heroic characters, and perceive them as a slap in the face. Rather than try to aspire to heroism, they get mad that they've been reminded of how little good they've done. And so one way they cope is by reinterpreting the hero not as a hero, but as a psycho who does what they do out of mental illness. Thus, the reader has neutralized that pesky voice suggesting that they could be a better person.

[@jefftonsman]

​@@MelMelodyWernerbatman gives money all the time

[@Harpoquondrax]

Sounds intense. Good video, thanks.

[@rickytoddbotelho9555]

Merry Christmas brah. But I disagree , never read Aquaman story,but Dave's work is for intellectual, intelligent comprehension. It's for stirring the imagination into thinking of situations. Unlike a lot of current things I can't bring to mind 😕🌲⛄❄️🎄👀

[@jonathangoode546]

I like that ocean wave looking costume he had for a short time . I even bought an Mattel action figure of Aquaman wearing that suit

[@fiaschampion3379]

I have these issues, I thought that the cover was misleading and as I read them I was shocked.

[@RX552VBK]

Chris, thanks for this vid. I'm a big fan of his work. I had most of Iron Man issues, loved the idea of different armor for different environments. He was ahead of his time imo.

[@BlackburnBigdragon]

Oh my god. I HAD this comic when I was a young kid. I had to have been about 7 or 8. I hadn't read any of the other previous comics at the time, and I DISTINCTLY remember that first panel you showed of Aquaman looking at the screen with the octopus kidnapping Aquaman's son. And I distinctly remember that panel with the octopus throwing the sea urchins at the purple diver guys. I remember this issue. I don't recall reading it that much though. I don't think the story entertained me very much. For some reason, seeing this brings to memory another comic I had at the time. It was a Superman comic with Superman sitting in front of this massive pile of hamburgers and he was stuffing his face like there was no tomorrow. I seem to recall that the story had his super powers going out of control, and he was just building up energy to the point where he was going to explode with enough force to blow up the Earth or something like that. I remember his eyes were glowing constantly like Cyclops's eyes, and he may have not been able to turn off his heat vision. Occasionally, I'll see a comic on here that I had in the 70's and it will spur all kinds of childhood memories. At that time in my life, I REALLY was into Spider Man comics, and I absolutely INHALED the Harvey Comics stuff. I LOVED the Harvey Comics characters. Richie Rich, Hot Stuff, and Spooky, were my favorite characters. But I absolutely loved all of Harvey's characters and comics. I liked the occasional superhero comic, but there was something just.. fun about the Harvey characters.

[@devonmckenna7588]

Chris you're looking amazing and Im always excited when i see a new video from you. Great insight to comic history

[@thewilhelmscream7912]

This reminds me of a proto version Animal Man from a few years ago and the building block that got us to the darker 80s comics and ultimately leading us to death of superman and such, seems like a good tragedy, alah the greek tragedy, but good vid, happy new year!!!

[@GreenGoblet22]

Lest we forget the time when Rick Veitch (who I normally admire) retconned Blank Manta to be autistic, which was somehow justification for what he does to Arthur's son. And then Aquaman cures his autism with sea magic. No, I'm not joking.

[@kanna-san.]

haha WHAT

[@joe3019772008]

good video, bro. happy holidays and merry christmas to you and yours.

[@Woodclaw]

I'm a big fan of Micheline's Iron Man, which I often think of as my favorite version of the character, in particular thank to the great supporting cast. As for this story... perhaps it went too far, but it also became one of the few definitive moments for Aquaman.

[@juniorjames7076]

Your comments bring memories of me going to the newstands or spinner racks at my local grocers. I still remember seeing that shocking cover of a drunk Iron Man. Sigh, the 1980s was the LAST Golden Age of mainstream (Marvel & DC) comics. By the late '90s, Marvel, DC and Image had declined to garbage, while manga, independent and foreign published graphic novel titles took over.

[@Woodclaw]

@@juniorjames7076 I don't think the 80s were the last golden age, but I agree that after the comic bubble burst of 1994 something broke in the publishing industry in general.

[@LUFlamesFan01]

Chris, I love your videos man. It reminds me of when I used to collect comics, thank you!

[@gechoman44iwantahippo]

I was SO worried the movie was gonna do this the moment it was revealed Aquababy was in it. So glad they didn’t.

[@MrMokeyMokey123]

Glad to see your video on my feed as always man

[@ItsOver9000Productions]

i'm sorry but the reveal of Black manta is fucking hilarious. That entire interaction even before he unmasked himself is ridiculous and then it just gets so fucking dark so quickly.

[@anthonyfamularo8875]

I dunno, I was 10 when I read that issue, and I remember thinking that killing the kid *really* ratcheted up the story's excitement-factor. And feeling kind of ... satisfied? ... that they did something so unusual for a comic. It's why I remember the title at all.

[@michaelwilson2340]

My favorite version of Aquaman was when he was in charge of the Detroit Justice League in the mid 80's. He was much tougher and a bit of a dictator with his team.

[@nicholaschapman6763]

i met him. he was cool. got him to sign several of my favorite avengers issues. also got him to sign armor wars iron man #225, iron man vs dr.doom #150, also got him to sign demon in a bottle #128. plus amazing spider man #300 and #361 the first of venom and carnage. like i said taskmaster and so many others he invented

[@takkun169]

This is the first time I've heard of this story. It seems like it should have been one of those moments that gets talked about, but I guess not.

[@Nono-hk3is]

Thanks Chris

[@JazGalaxy]

I love the idea that black manta had to explain that he named himself Black Manta because he’s a black man. Awuamam should have been like “ yeah… I… put that together.”

[@Rechargerator]

I was surprised I did remember that Michelinie wrote this tragic tale. I was a fan of the earlier Aparo-Skeates run and although I liked the more adventure-oriented series I thought this story was a huge cop-out. I think the guy who started this trend was Archie Goodwin who killed off Tony Starks second girlfriend at the end of his - otherwise classic - two-year run on Iron Man's solo title. And I think he also pulled off the first baby cop-out on taking over FF from Stan Lee and putting Franklin Richards into a coma when his reality-altering powers manifest. Comic book writers had no clue how to incorporate family life into the soap opera-style storytelling they were developing.

[@JohnAquariusPodcast]

Interesting Jim aparo was the artist for the death of Aquamans son and Death in the Family aka the Death of Jason Todd

[@MarioUcomics]

Let's be honest. Aquaman from the comics isn't known for much. The most memorable things I've known comic book Aquaman for before the New 52 is the baby storyline and his hook hand. callous person but I don't mind this story at all

[@fledglingbodhisatva4821]

I remember being 13 or 14 and making the switch to Marvel because of the realism and more adult themes in his writing in Spider-Man.

[@capnmo6718]

Merry Christmas and all the best in the New Year, Chris!

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

Very interesting, another great video

[@christopherjudge1138]

The Aquaman cartoon of the 1960's, produced by Filmation's the one that went too far! Let's hiope Vol. 1 of the Sea King's Sliver Age Omnibus is announced in March!

[@matthewschwartz6607]

They almost did this in the new Aquaman movie. Like, The Manta was legit trying to stab Arthur Jr.

[@steveg7000]

There's a major detail missing from this discussion, and I don't see any commentary from others, but this storyline is pretty obviously influenced by Namor stories of the time. What happens to Aquababy is overtly similiar to how Lady Dorma is killed, and Michellini was obviously going for some of that edginess. But as Chris says, there's no payoff here, whereas Namor actually does exact vengeance and kills Dr. Dorcas.

[@dfailsthemost]

Looking and sounding good, brother.

[@Whyexes]

Chris: This is way too dark. Berserk fans: Surpass your limits. Right here, right now.