Commander 2015 Review - Black/White & Blue/Red | The Command Zone 87

[@stratoincendus3869]

You forgot about Extinguish All Hope - the ideal replacement for the board wipe in Daxos's deck ;) . It will be one-sided most of the time, killing only Daxos himself, who you can easily get back via Phyrexian Reclamation etc.

[@DeliciousMorsels]

Hey guys, just thought I'd point out you were reading Karmic Justice wrong, lol. It only allows you to target a permanent controlled by the person that destroyed one of yours, not a permanent owned by any opponent. "...you may destroy target permanent *that opponent* controls." :) Also, I was running Starfield of Nyx in my original build so thanks for pointing out that it'll kill all the dudes made with Daxos, saved me a bit of a yikes moment, lol. Ended up with a TON of Curses in my build, gonna be so fun....Curse of Misfortunes for days :3

[@Tyveris]

+DreamersImperial Thanks for pointing out the Karmic Justice thing. It was killing me.

[@goldbergbrain]

Love the Mizzix deck. Played it vs. my wife with the Meren G/B deck. 1 and 1 W/L. The first game, Meren ran over me, literally, she killed with an Ovewhelming Stampede/Eldrazi Monument ... and she just gained insane value throughout with recurring Shriekmaw, Phyrexian Ragers. Second game, I went big with Mizzix Mastery + Charmbreaker Devils + Rogues' Passage. Unblockable 40+ damage creature. My issue with this R/U deck playing it - it's too unfocused. I had Melek and Mizzix out, but for turns and turns, I had nothing but creatures in my hand and lands/enchantments on the top of the deck. This deck needs MORE spells. Way more game-affecting spells.

[@ValanceJ]

D: Unfortunately I completely lost track of time and wasn't able to make a Kalemne deck. Admittedly it probably wouldn't have been worthy of mention anyways. Artifact ramp into big stuff, get unblockable on the big stuff and Kalemne, then double damage with stuff like Dictate of Twin Gods and extra combat steps.

[@hewhogoesbymanynames]

Archmage ascension seems really good in Arjun, you can get a counter on each person's turn by just casting an instant, then you can just get an ideal hand whenever you cast a spell.

[@mythoughtsonblank5769]

I don't think you guys mentioned how grasp of fate says "up to", so if you want to team up with someone, you don't have to exile something they own

[@joshleekwai8895]

+My Thoughts On Blank This is a really good point and something we didn't talk about. Thanks!

[@LightpressNet]

Daxos: put in as many enchantment creatures as possible (your tokens are enchantment creatures too), add Extinguish All Hope (destroy all non enchantment creatures ), and throw in a few more return enchantments from graveyard spells. Also, Heliod God of the Sun drops enchantment tokens.

[@HavocTheWendigo]

And ethereal armor and/or helm of the gods for some extra beats lol

[@ThePhantomphan11]

Two things, Mizzix gives you an experience counter even if the instant or sorcery gets countered because it's whenever you cast it. Also Epic Experiment with x as 5 wouldn't give you a counter because the CMC is still 2 even if the casting cost is 7. Great Podcast though, definitely keep doing these reviews!

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Timothy Pifer We've had this come up a lot. It's obviously a complicated interaction that's tripping up a lot of people. The thing about X spells is that X=0 everywhere EXCEPT on the stack. On the stack the CMC of an x spell is whatever amount of mana was paid for the spell. Since the stack is where Mixxiz's ability checks for CMC and is triggered, X spells would indeed work as we stated.

[@giancarlomaschietto6510]

That time when the Kalemne player made the Kalemne's Captain mounstruous to make the daxos player cry Really nice idea by winner of the contest

[@lucasmartin9611]

Hmmm Karmic Justice can only target the opponent who hurt you, not anyone.

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Lucas Martin Whoops - you're absolutely right. It says THAT opponent...my bad.

[@lucasmartin9611]

Haha no problem

[@jacobdachauer4377]

I am very pumped for these new commander decks!! Thank you for the in depth look at all of them. Looking forward to the rest of them!

[@moxperidot1012]

A lot of the Commander 2015 cards seemed mismatched to the deck they were in. Warchief Giant in the Mizzex deck is a prime example. Staff of Nin seems a bit weird in the Kalemne deck, and Scytheclaw in the Ezuri deck fits in Kalemne with Anya way better.

[@joshleekwai8895]

+SuperCradily6400 I agree - although I think the Ezuri deck is actually a Kaseto deck so the Scytheclaw makes sense there.

[@stratoincendus3869]

Red-white needs Staff of Nin desperately due to Boros's lack of card draw ;) . So the Staff actually fits into the deck very well.

[@empurress77]

The Vow cards are terrific with "Akroma the false god". She passes to each opponent every turn. If you throw in 'creature must attack' effects, then your gold. As you say "Not in the deck as is". Great cards though. ;)

[@Tinycuber1]

I know a guy that says fireminds foresight wins your next turn by getting high tide, epic expiriment, counterflux or fabricate, so you either have a huge epic expiriment with counter backup, or you can just tutor for sphinx bone wand and then expiriment.

[@bassbutter22]

Arjun goes so well with Library of Leng :D

[@elaineanspach4278]

firemind's foresight is great with X spells

[@DarkShadowDragon48]

A little late, but both Red and Blue Sun's Zenith are also pretty awesome for Mizzix, and can be reused since they shuffle back in! :D

[@JulTeb]

Well, tried the izzet deck for the first time yesterday, just added a reiterate before the match... drew it early, it was incredibly fun to cast it with Fact or Fiction and Steam Augury, only to go for a 25+ spells Mizzix's Mastery the turn after with a Sleep in the graveyard and a Charmbreaker Devil on the board

[@markphelps3704]

42 minutes in for izzet

[@nwestgart]

note: when you activate Arjun's ability, the Psychosis Crawler will die, as you will have no cards in our hand before you draw our new cards, and it its power and toughness will be 0/0

[@lassekokholm4392]

+Nicholas Westgård (MTGgeek) This will not be checked before the resolution of the triggered ability from Arjun, like how Adamaro survives Wheel of Fortune. But you should still take it out!

[@DCAMM720]

Mizzix is the hardest to trigger? What? Lol it's one of the easiest. The only slow one is Kalemne really. Others are butts easy to trigger.

[@gianniguiliana155]

I have a question. When should I play Draxos? If I want to ride under the radar when? Or preparing to explode, when.

[@darkrayaccel]

Firemind's foresight usually just gets you an infinite combo, something like read the runes, the untap X permanents and reiterate, and with mizzit free mana all this stuff is even easyer to go infinite and just outright set the game on the back of 1 card, Fireminds foresight...Red blue is usually crazy in commander anyways, way to underrated.

[@darkrayaccel]

I usually see teysa on combo and synergetic decks where teysa is there just to stop ppl from aggroing you since her ability if pretty good for defense. Having a 4/4 for 7cmc for voltron is just bad, You usually want fast hasty and cheap generals for voltron, so you can start equip/enchant asap.

[@hewhogoesbymanynames]

You guys did the Glissa the traitor infect deck, it seems the Throne of Geth and Dross Scorpion would be awesome in that too, if you could get a poison counter on everyone you could just proliferate 9 times and win, and that deck already loves artifacts.

[@HavocTheWendigo]

Lol true but after that your deck is instantly put down every game cause of its power

[@joshleekwai8895]

+John McCormick Its an interesting idea. I think the problem there is if you put in a whole ton of artifacts then you've got less chance to draw your infect cards to get some poison counters on them in the first place.

[@penderrin1637]

Karmic justice only destroys to the person who destroyed your permanent

[@darkrayaccel]

I made a deck few weeks ago, mono red, i wanted max draw, so i put mindmoil and archive and milled myself in 2 consecutive games, so you better be carefull, it works great with teferi puzzle box tho. If your looking for draw in mono red, which he has plenty if you are creative.

[@ShroudedBlade]

hey I'm not the best at rules her but in an X spell's cmc X is always zero, and mizzix's exp trigger is based on cmc. so if you have 5 exp counters on you and you cat a XRU spell for 7, it's cmc is still 2 because x=0. right?

[@HavocTheWendigo]

From what I hear it's cost is determined when you cast it but when it's not being cast x defaults to 0

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Shrouded Blade For x spells, x=0 everywhere EXCEPT on the stack (which is where Mizzix ability is triggered and checks for CMC).

[@ShroudedBlade]

+Josh Lee Kwai thanks man, did not know this!

[@VitorJTekkRodrigues]

+Shrouded Blade If you pay 7, the cmc will still be 7. But you're paying just the RU (since the cost reduction only affects the casting cost, not any type of trigger involving the mana cost of the spell/permanent). So, in that case, it would trigger her first ability and get you an experience counter.

[@vagamorth]

Yay excited to see what they think of them, Keep up the great work. Been looking forward to this since I bought all 5 decks friday.

[@anguishedsmurf5104]

firemind's foresight- reiterate, desperate ritual, and lightning bolt for the win

[@gammie6062]

I don't like how some of the decks have lightning greaves and some have swiftfoot boots...

[@HavocTheWendigo]

I hear that's because of shroud vs hexproof if you want to target ur creatures a lot in the deck then it came with swiftfoot boots

[@ThePhantomphan11]

What ramp artifacts do you guys think are good enough to play in EDH? I run Sol Ring obviously, Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, and usually Gilded Lotus and Darksteel Ignot. Generally I don't like to play green, so ramp is a little hard to come by. Are there any others you'd suggest? There are a bunch that cost 3 and tap for 1 that seem fairly good and I can't make up my mind about the Signets. Also some times I'll run other ramp stuff, like Burnished Hart, Solemn Simulacrum, and Gem of Becoming in my Grixis deck, what's your opinion on them?

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Timothy Pifer All the stuff you mentioned is great. Thran Dynamo is also good. I think all of the signets are playable. Chromatic Lantern, Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot can be great. Myriad Landscape is another one.

[@manuelaguilartirado8674]

Arjun deck with sphinx tutelage as a posible win condition xD full of cantrips!! "I mill you for 16, then I mill you for 16!!"

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Manuel Aguilar Tirado Nice - this does seem sweet!

[@manuelaguilartirado8674]

+Josh Lee Kwai Flavourwise yeah, but would it be good...only testing and brewing will tell. As always great episode guys, thanks :)

[@allanmenzies8668]

I've been toying around with this and it works pretty solid. even if you are playing five color with cards like arjun and jaces archivist it is surprisingly potent of a win con.

[@crypticmrchimes]

Question: What happens when your facing a Nekusar?

[@apeofjustice7109]

My favorite 3 cost for Firemind's Forsite would probably be Intuition.

[@fidelcassio4210]

Do you know that Mizzix doesnt removes the colorless mana from Falshback costs?

[@sevosberg]

I believe your wrong about experience counters with [x] spell when having Mizzix of the Izmagnus. In the text it says "whenever you cast a spell with higher converted mana cost than the number of experience counters you have, you get an experience counter." They key part being "converted mana cost." When calculating converted mana cost you don't use the number of what you may pay for it, but what the mana symbols on top say. As well [x] has the converted mana cost of zero. So [x][U] has the converted mana cost of 1.

[@Cangaroombi]

+sevosberg No, when you declare the value of X, its converted mana cost now includes X. It is not an additional cost (as, for example, kicker X). Obviously if the spell is still not played (for example when it's in your hand) X is 0.

[@Crinson_typhoon]

I've found that the white black is very voltron. I've won with commander damage while playing daxos, and I'm sure teysa could do the same thing

[@Pyoromo]

I noticed Thief of Blood can remove counters from Dark Depths 10/10 and 20/20 for 6 mana? value

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Pyoromo I agree - pure value!

[@MagicUzer]

Hmm... can't you use the Vow cards on your own creature..like Daxos.. so you don't have to worry about those take control of cards like izzet has to make your own cards attack you? Me no sure --great vid btw

[@RedDragonFlayer]

wait what starfield doesn't kill them because of there effect making there power and toughness not 0 or is there small print on this because I started in origins so I don't know much

[@aliconvoy]

Cast Epic Experiment into Mizzix's Mastery. Living the Dream!

[@MrCannibalMan]

Hope you're not casting it off the epic experiment :P but afterwards

[@brianwise5850]

how would that work? I play doomwake giant in say 4 person game. then next turn play blade of selves, and equip then swing. creating 2 more copies. so each copy then cause -2/-2 for a total of -6/-6. is that correct. because if your playing 6 persons...-20/-20???

[@PierreMarcMazerolle]

+Brian Wise Each copy also triger itself. 3x3x2= -12/-12

[@VitorJTekkRodrigues]

+Pierre-Marc Mazerolle Yup. And 5x5x5x5x4 = -2500/-2500 for a 6 players match. Because constellation says "Whenever this card or another enchantment enters the battlefield", so the only one who's not triggering the constellation of all Doomwake Giants its the original one, since it was already on the battlefield. +Brian Wise The math might seem wrong, but its just the combo that its op.

[@emmanueledwards6018]

What about Follow the Path? Its like 3-5 cost red/blue card (I forget how much) with the text. "Draw a card, then deal damage to target based on how many cards you have in hand" Thats pretty big card draw payoff, especially when combined with all the card draw

[@emmanueledwards6018]

+Emmanuel Edwards Whoops, its called Master the Way, and costs 5 (3, then 1 blue and 1 red) When combined with mizzex's Mastery and something like Arcbond it can be a win condition

[@Jaksonbaus]

Can I send you guys a deck list that i have made using Arjun as the commander? I think its a rather different and Chaotic take on him.

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Jakson Baus You can certainly send it in for consideration for our Deck Doctors series. Just put it up on tappedout.net and email us a link.

[@benk7112]

I was wondering if clone legion would be go in the blue red deck

[@anonofyesterday4650]

Should I rather buy one of this decks or Power Hungry 2013 if I am looking for a fun deck that can be upgraded to a very competitive build? I want to star playing commander, but at my local meta there are mostly Narset/Oloro/Animar and I don't like loosing 20 times in a row. Btw. I really enjoy the show.

[@anonofyesterday4650]

+Filip Tryhuk Oh, and there is this Kaalia-Tutor-Ionia guy.

[@elaineanspach4278]

firemind's foresight is great with X spells and mizzix

[@DankJesuz]

when you guys are talking about Karmatic Justice at around 26-28min you seem to be under the impression(and I think you even said it, I can't tell if he uses the word "does" or "doesn't") that you can target any opponents' creature-it HAS to be the opponent that destroys your creature(s)... Thanks for the Video though! just wanted to point that out for you and the viewers

[@TravisWizard]

great channel! thinking I should get more into Modern

[@mahamoomoo13]

A silly question, what is the card of the woman with the bleeding face?

[@joshleekwai8895]

+mahamoomoo13 Not a silly question at all. The card is Angelheart Vial. For some reason we get asked about that card art more than any other. I wonder if it's because the card is more obscurbe or because the art is so arresting?

[@teajaywalter]

Josh Lee I'm a new listener and love the show but you live I'm magic wonderland lol

[@baadThe]

It seems like every colour got a creature with Myriad on it, and they decided to shove them into every deck. That's why the Izzet deck has the out of place red 5/3 haste guy.

[@joshleekwai8895]

+the baad Izzet also got the 3/3 Snake, myriad + draw a card for combat damage which is waaaay better.

[@andrewmoore7014]

Oh, you don't just grab value off of Firemind's Foresight. You grab Reiterate, Reset, and any 1 mana instant you feel like casting an infinite number of times. Draw your deck, Lightning Bolt people to death, etc.

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Andrew Moore Yeah I've had that done to me a few times but going infinite with a tutor is not really our style.

[@andrewmoore7014]

Josh Lee Kwai That's fair. It is a little bit of a bummer for members of your audience who like that sort of thing but I understand it. Your podcast is awesome anyway and I always refer people new to the format to it, but maybe you could do an episode dedicated just to infinite combos sometime. I'd be psyched about that! Anyway, how about this idea? You grab Polymorphist's Jest, Fork (or any two mana copy spell, but I know Jimmy especially loves Fork), and Street Spasm. Then you can turn the two scariest opponents' creatures into frogs, and then into roasted frogs. Even if they have something like Ulamog or Avacyn, it turns into a frog and then dies to the burn. Plus, there's an X spell with Overload; two things you mentioned as being great with Mizzix!

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Andrew Moore I'd say we'd certainly be open to doing an "Infinite Combos" episode in the future. We're not actually against going infinite - in fact we talk about that type of thing quite often - it's just not something we're likely to suggest as the first thing you should add to the new precon decks.

[@andrewmoore7014]

That makes perfect sense. I'm impressed as always with how much thought you guys put in to this.

[@joaovictortavares4330]

hey I'm a really newbie mtg player. I don't really get how that goes infinite. If you don't mind, could you please explain it to me?

[@HavocTheWendigo]

It's funny if you read the flavor text it seems like karl is related to teysha lol Also wasn't he the guy on the exile search card for black white back in original ravnica

[@explodingbarrel2]

Is there a decklist for the proliferate kalemne?

[@TheLightindarkness2]

I was playing with this deck yesterday and i adding in pyromancers goggles and cast epic experiment for 17 doubled and it's actually really underwhelming it was insanely fun but not as effective as id hope it yo be

[@coltinyancey3671]

When is the plunder the graves review comin?

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Coltin Yancey Next week!

[@OutOfOuts1]

I threw in whip of erebos and had some fun. Thoughts?

[@VitorJTekkRodrigues]

+dalton kelahan That's a pretty nice idea. I guess Pontiff of Blight might as well work with Karlov.

[@VitorJTekkRodrigues]

And also Angelic Accord for some more feathery pleasure.

[@OutOfOuts1]

Ya it would, I enjoy the daxos deck quite a bit, animate dead is a fun thing as well and if you try to skew more towards the zombie theme endless ranks of the dead is a good inclusion.

[@missingno.5597]

+dalton kelahan I guess it can be used to bring back enchantment creatures and proc cards like Ajani's Chosen, Mesa Enchantress and Constellation effects. The thing that sucks is you will no longer have access to those resurrected creatures. Erebos Whip seems like a last resort only after you've used Replenish or gotten use from Starfield of Nyx. Unless you're mid/late game and still haven't gotten either of your recursion cards yet and need to start summoning attackers.

[@snowcoveredplainswalker442]

The Starfield comment, according to 3 judges I spoke to, is wrong. All tokens that existed before Starfield came into play, die, all tokens that come in after, live because they already have a set base power and toughness that is determined after the Starfield. So in short, tokens in play before, die. Tokens that come in after, live.

[@King-fo3kj]

no all tokens die, any enchantment creatures that enter after get effected by starfield so why would the tokens get special treatment?

[@snowcoveredplainswalker442]

Kyle McHale Take that up with the judges, not me, I'm but a humble player.

[@King-fo3kj]

SnowCoveredPlainswalker I'm a level 1 judge, my friend at my locals is a level 2 I'll ask him about it

[@Stormraven96]

The tokens will all die regardless if they came in before, with, or after Starfield's entry. This is much like the rules interaction of Humility: the tokens come into play with their own _characteristic-defining ability_ to set power and toughness, but Starfield's static ability _setting power and toughness to a specific value_ overwrites it due to the rules of layering (cite M:tG Comp Rules 613.3., 613.3a and 613.3b). The tokens enter the battlefield and are innately set to base power and toughness of 0/0 via Starfield, and will die as a state-based action unless you have an anthem or something. This isn't me being a judge or any shiny title like that, just having passion for the rules. -Afjak

[@TheOriginalBoman]

+Stormraven96 Ooh, now talk about Opalesence and humility! AND the gods!

[@DeadSerious98]

I don't think they die because they become 0/0 creatures but keep the ability "this creature power and toughness are equal to the number of experience counters you have" so they will always have P/T equal to the number of experience counters

[@xxPenguinKnight7xx]

+Tiago Santos creatures with toughness of 0 always die. Even with indestructibility. You need to get at least one experience counter before you even think about putting one of these tokens out.

[@DeadSerious98]

+xxPenguinKnight7xx well if you have like 4 experience counters the tokens will be 4/4 and even with starfield if nyx making them 0/0 the tokens text says that their thoughness is 4 so they won't die

[@Stormraven96]

A Daxos token's ability is categorized as a "characteristic-defining ability". Due to the rules of layering effects, you first apply characteristic-defining abilities, _then_ abilities that set power and toughness to a specific value. No matter whether the tokens come into play before or after Starfield does, it will overwrite their ability due to layering and automatically set them to base power and toughness of 0/0, killing them as a state-based action unless you control an anthem or some likening.

[@Starfury117]

I hear you shouldnt need more than 2-3 board wipes because if you're constantly being pressured by other players forcing your play boardwipes then the power level of your deck is not as high as the other players. Of course, some strategies would want more board wipes (non-creature decks)

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Starfury117 I totally disagree with this. Commander is a singleton format so the consistency of decks is not going to be ideal. Often times you simply get off to a slow start or your opponent gets off to a fast one. Board wipes are the great equalizer. In addition, there's the multiplayer aspect to consider. Sometimes you have gotten off to a reasonable start but there are too many threats from the combined 4-5 other players. Again a boardwipe can be a great answer.

[@Starfury117]

+Josh Lee Kwai I agree that consistency is difficult in multiplayer and that sometimes One person gets a head start (ie sol ring turn 1). But I find most times people get ahead with one card (phyrexian alter for draw, animar for animar, black market for mana, prophet for win and etc). So I always pack more single removal because instant speed is necessary (aka prophet) and single removal doesn't hurt yourself. Again in the right deck where you want more board wipes are non creature based decks. So I've never put in more than 3 board wipes. I'm sure this vary from play group to play group but in my experience I think 6 is a bit much. Especially when someone pulls ahead, everyone has boardwipes so you don't have to always have one ready.

[@joshleekwai8895]

Starfury117 Could definitely be a play group thing. I find single target removal to be gimped quite a bit by the fact that nearly everyone plays stuff like Swiftfoot Boots and Lightning Greaves, etc.

[@Spckeck]

If I sac Burnished Hart to Blasting Station do I still get the mana?

[@joshleekwai8895]

+SerOrion No unfortunately not.

[@ThePhantomphan11]

With Karmic Justice it does have to be the same player that destroyed your noncreature permanent

[@joshleekwai8895]

+Timothy Pifer Yeah you're absolutely right. My bad on that one.

[@blackcandymensshop7691]

I want this thief as my Pauper EDH Commander ^^

[@HavocTheWendigo]

Lol I'm gonna toss ethereal armor in Daxos just in case I need some extra beats

[@HavocTheWendigo]

Origins actually had a nice equipment version of it lol

[@thomasmerry3207]

you guys realize you can cast vow of mailce and vow of duty on your own creatures right.

[@regirex4418]

Basically the Orzhov Deck is spirit tribal

[@dakotahilliker3873]

Hope I won the kalemne deck,y friend just got back from a rode trip and all his cards got stolen, I'm so gonna give him this deck, especially since the kalemne deck had some good cards in there for him to trade if need be

[@fatpanda8717]

the luminarc is real

[@scifoncra6376]

Mizzix is NOT the hardest commander to trigger experience. Believe me.

[@sumcate8168]

Which one is it then?

[@scifoncra6376]

I'd say Kalemne is.

[@HavocTheWendigo]

+Scifon Cra agreed lol Meren I had something like 50 counters on me I could reanimated any creature at that point. However with the Boris deck its so slow to get counters on your self useless you use tons of proliferation

[@thomasmerry3207]

Just noticed taht gideon looks like Hugh Jackman. Also holy cow Im early

[@thomasmerry3207]

+thomas merry That*

[@thisislesbomaya]

yay the two decks i bought in 1 vid well imma watch the other ones anywasy anyways

[@michaelcarriaga2843]

polymorphic jest

[@missingno.5597]

The Big D is mah nigga.

[@missingno.5597]

I forgot I wrote this comment, let alone watched this video already. STILL FUNNY LOL