Cards That Are Too Strong For Our Group | Commander Clash Podcast #48

[@erikbraun473]

Prediction: Crim's most hated and overpowered card is "Forest"

[@natejablonski]

My prediction: Snow-Covered Forest

[@alaraplatt8104]

@@natejablonski power creep is a plague

[@oinkytheink1228]

The land type or the basic land?

[@felipeguidolin1055]

He is not wrong

[@metagrossle]

I know it's my least favorite. i call that shit every time I cast demonic consultation. I'm just like here let me search this good grixis deck for a terrible card. oops, can't find one 😶😶😶

[@bryanleblanc5648]

You really have to give Crim credit--the man plays control in EDH, always gets attacked, always gets cursed, never gets salty or tilted, doesn't even think curses are annoying even if he knows they hurt his archetype the most. Absolute chad.

[@Alan-wp9yn]

Fr, competent stax pilots are some of the most chill people you'll ever meet

[@Windows98.]

@@Alan-wp9yntheir game plan is literally patience, they’ve gotta be chill

[@BBreal818]

They have to be chill because they know THEY are the annoying player at the table hahaha especially Crim! This dude plays the worse cards in the game lol I love watching the tables reactions when he plays x. Crim I didn’t like you until I liked you dude!!

[@Malstrx]

I want to be Crim when I grow up haha

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Nah, he always tricks the others into attacking or targeting someone else. The only one aware of his tactics is Tomer, who gets salty when the others won't listen 😂

[@andyspendlove1019]

I’d be very interested to see WotC design and make a commander that has Eminence as a downside. Like every time you cast a spell, lose life or something. And the commander has some other appropriately powerful ability that counterbalances the downside when it’s actually in play, that incentivizes you to actually cast it.

[@Ixidora]

This! This is the perfect balance to Eminence's inherent power!

[@wolfspirit12223]

I think that would be an interesting idea, but i think that would basically be repeating companions. it's just not something that would be easy to balance because it has to be good enough to want to deal with the downsides, but not good enough that it just overtakes the game because of it.

[@qubingjianshen8210]

Both its downside and its upside would have to be part of its Eminence for this to work out the way you want. If the downside was in its Eminence but its upside while on the battlefield where enough to outweigh that downside, then people won't play it as their commander, they would play it in their 99.

[@bryanleblanc5648]

I think that the variety in EDH would balance it, if you did it right. For example: Evil Imp Guy. 2+B to cast. Creature Effect: X. Eminence: lose 1 life whenever you cast a spell. Now, consider two options for X. Maybe X = whenever a creature dies, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life. That would be pretty good in battlecruiser metas, probably awful in cEDH. But the downside of his eminence is much much lower in cEDH fast metas. So if X was something that benefited cEDH more (like, say, whenever an opponent draws a card you gain 1 life and they lose 1 life), he would be pretty weak in lower power levels but busted in cEDH. All this to say, I think if you considered what the different power-levels want to do, you could balance it to best in one of those power-levels but not Korvold/Chulane/Golos-level where they're (maybe a little too?) strong at any power level.

[@chasm9557]

Or, make the eminence effect a marginally beneficial ability, like the first time you do X on your own turn, draw 1 card, or gain 1 life, etc. Then, make the effect better when it's in play, like draw 2 cards instead of 1 or gain 2 life instead of 1.

[@alexhunt1775]

I think it's funny that the discussion around insurrection is "does this person deserve to win the game" where in other podcasts you all more or less agreed that if you cast an 8 mana spell it should win you the game.

[@brandondrake4609]

This is what I was thinking as well

[@MatchaDough]

The discussion about mana crypt was also a contradiction to their usual take on cedh cards being played in casual games.

[@wolfspirit12223]

Agreed. I think though It probably doesn't help the card is that they are valuing it at it's worst potential. At worst its like playing against some one who plays all lands except for one card that says "i win" on it. Sure a lot of the time they are not going to win, but when it gets to those points where it's like a stale mate, and every one is just trying to either draw the right card, or leverage there pieces to close out the game and then out of no where lil timmy who has been chewing on the furniture all game finally draws his "I win" card it makes the entire experience unbelievably cheap, or anticlimactic.

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@wolfspirit12223 You take that back, furniture is delicious and I will continue eating my couch until the game has ended or the couch is gone!

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

On a serious note, did no one else listen to their takes? It being on this list has nothing to do with it winning the game. They even said it’s not a power reason at the beginning of that section, just an easy button reason. Which I think is oversimplifying it a lot, and I disagree with it being here, but they’re not just self-contradicting and saying it’s bad because it wins the game.

[@marcellofranceschina3690]

59:20 listening to this 9/27/24 just hits different...you guys were ahead of your time. Calling out mana crypt and dockside haha

[@Rnar_]

2:30 Deadeye Navigator (Seth) 9:05 Curse of Opulence (Richard) 18:00 Rhystic Study (Tomer) 28:00 Inalla, Archmage Ritualist (Crim) 38:15 Craterhoof Behemoth (Seth) 43:15 Insurrection (Richard) 52:00 Mana Crypt (Tomer) 59:00 Dockside Extortionist (Crim) 1:08:35 Thassa's Oracle (Seth) 1:17:30 Avenger of Zendikar (Richard) 1:24:07 Expropriate (Tomer) 1:32:10 Necropotence (Crim) 1:39:00 Closing Thoughts

[@nathanmontgomery7865]

SMH my head they really need to ban the card ""Closing Thoughts"

[@starmanda88]

@@nathanmontgomery7865 fr what is the rules committee thinking on that one!

[@nathanmontgomery7865]

@@starmanda88 They really should take action. We have Closing Statement as a viable alternative.

[@Hedgemonkey5]

I have a Dockside, and the only deck I play it in is my Vazi deck, where the point of the deck is to make tons of treasures for every player, and then play effects which punish them or benefit me when they use them. Giving an opponent 25 treasures, which burn them for 1 and draw me a card for each one they use, is exactly what I play Commander for.

[@Mehwave]

It's kinda funny how everybody sees Rhystic Study and agrees that paying the 1 is the way to go, but when Curse of Opulence hits the field they all go:"Oh no, we can't attack anyone but the cursed player and there's literally no way to stop the guy who played Curse of Opulence from creating massive amounts of treasure." The actual risk and reward in this card is that the table should focus the person who played Curse of Opulence, because it is quite literally a "Tempt with..." card. You don't get tempted. The player who played the card always profits more from it than you.

[@johnlaremy3592]

Curse of opulence only makes 1 treasure per combat tho

[@matthewpopow6647]

Imagine if Rhystic gave the person a benefit if they DIDN’T pay. Would you still always pay the one?

[@another_jesus1867]

hottake the right play with opulence is to enchant yourself so you wont get attacked and it turns into a earlygame propaganda/ghostly prison.

[@timolebeck6405]

@@another_jesus1867Never thought about that! xDD I always cut it from deck, cause it makes my playgroup focus on me if I curse another player. But THIS is a great way to play it^^

[@AxillaryPower2]

Idk about other people's pods, but the person with the Curse of Opulence doesn't always get attacked. Sure, it's "free value" for my opponent when they attack the cursed player, except it's not because the Curse's owner gets the value too, and all players see this. I've had games where the only person the whole game triggering my Curse of Opulence is me. That's still good, it's still red ramp, but it's not the death sentence that Richard is making it out to be.

[@bennettwadekamper8238]

Yeah. Usually they put up blockers like anyone normally would in a game. So you get some hits in early. But after board states are established, a lot less.

[@GreenLightningHood]

I don't know, it works exactly how Richard says in my playgroup. If there is anything at all to be gained for attacking a specific player, Malachi and I will just destroy them. Maybe it is a playgroup difference, but I've had a very different experience.

[@Ixidora]

I laugh at those curses, I straight up put Curse of Opulence in my Werewolf tribal deck to enchant myself, it suddenly functions as a Ghostly Prison/Propaganda effect as nobody wants to give me mana with all the cards I draw, I'm always short on mana. P.S. I'm short on mana because I have so many Werewolves that the more I play, the more I draw and it just keeps spiraling from there. Druidic Repository is the best mana generator in the deck outside of nykthos and Gaea's cradle type effects(I run all three, Gaea's cradle is a proxy)

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

Well that’s why you keep an ace up your sleeve to deal with the Curse owner. Let them get all the value they want while you do the same, but hold up a counterspell or whatever for when they try to go off with all their free mana. Regardless, even if it only triggers two or three times, that’s still way too much value for a 1-drop that has no real risk attached to it.

[@skykur]

Came here to say this. The treasures aren’t free. The owner gets catapulted ahead massively if they’re getting 3 treasures a turn cycle. But the card doesn’t work like that, people don’t want to put you ahead that much. It’s actually a fair smothering tithe, it’s one they have control over.

[@lordsoth-en4nb]

Tomer's face when Seth says he never pays for the Rhystic Study 😂

[@Friendofsquirrel]

Tomer is right tho, I don’t think Seth is that dumb to never pay I think he’s just a troll

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

At this point I mostly don't pay because seeing how tilted it makes Tomer is pretty funny. If it didn't bother Tomer so much I'd probably pay, at least sometimes.

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Which I guess means I'm a troll ;)

[@AnExercisInThought]

@@MTGGoldfishCommander It's a bridge worth dying under

[@Friendofsquirrel]

Yeah it makes great content and keeps me watching haha you’re a funny dude

[@BickSnarf]

I think people dont like extra turn spells because normally theyre there to have a game of magic or socialise and not watch their opponent play solitaire

[@kyleellis1825]

I'm fine with the older 5th-10th edition extra turns. PAying 10 mana for 2 extra turns in mono blue back then was fine. PAying 5 for 1 turn was also a lot more fair.

[@Graatand]

What if Wizards made inverted curses (blessings?) I.e. “Whenever enchanted player attacks one or more of your opponents, you and enchanted player each ________”?

[@pistolpete7422]

Great idea!

[@brandondrake4609]

They have one card like this called tenuous truce. As long as you and the enchanted player don’t attack each other you each get an extra card every turn

[@Tvboy777]

There are many cards like that, including Edric, Spymaster or Trest and Breena, the Demagogue.

[@somedudeontheinterwebs45]

There's wedding ring! That's a start lol

[@NeilBFormy]

Crim out here still having the most inconsistent things he’s okay with 😂

[@samkeefer4747]

Would love to see the opposite of this, 3 new cards since the pandemic we love in the format. There's been a lot of mistakes in the format over that time frame so some introspection on newer cards you like would make for some interesting discussion I think. Edit: Not simply strong cards but rather cards that you enjoy playing specifically in commander. You could even split it up between commanders and 99s.

[@fenixiliusstrife1253]

Crims logic is flawed with sol ring/ mana crypt. With his logic it would be ok to have 20 different sol rings type cards as long as sol ring is in the format. Having 2 different types of sol ring cards is way worse than having 2. Not only does it double your chance but it also now allows u to play 2 on your first turn. That would be impossible if only one sol ring card existed.

[@nulljaeger3850]

Not to mention that Sol ring is extremely accessible with a million printings and costs $2 while mana crpyt is over $150

[@soleo2783]

​@@nulljaeger3850 if mana crypt was also 2 dollars its still broken, doesnt feel any better to lose to a proxy mana crypt

[@LuKo3x5066]

Commander crew: "If you play something costing 8 mana it is fair that you win". Also commander crew: "First card that is too strong for our group is 8 mana, blink a card".

[@fosterdawson7339]

I mean with peregrine drake/similar cards it is a win so… idk. I think Seth took it out due to his love of Panharmonicon

[@Frostgiantbutsmall]

TBF you do get to split up the cost, it's instant speed to activate, and goes infinite with a shoelace.

[@fosterdawson7339]

@@Frostgiantbutsmall a shoelace and a ham sandwich!

[@peytonmillner6417]

Its because its an 8 mana win card, disguised as a value piece and protection piece. Its honestly not op as a win but it is if its used as a value.

[@fosterdawson7339]

@@peytonmillner6417 that and you can also win with it so it’s value + win = good

[@alecolson8360]

Dockside is my most annoying card because it is always the best card for your engine, if you reanimate,blink, or have any strategy it’s always the best thing to abuse

[@CaptainJosephus89]

34:53 I love when no one remembers Oloro because it doesn't say "Eminence" on the card. >:) Just let my resting giant gain life with his paradox haze

[@Greatskykatana]

I think the thassa's oracle conversation is a good argument towards playing some amount of hand disruption in commander and if your playing thoracle in a self mill deck there is a chance you could just lose the thoracle to your graveyard and get it exiled by any number of graveyard removals.

[@Jidayun]

First card was definitely something that hit me. My brother plays it in his Riku of Twin Reflections and just infinites me with a dockside or etb damage effect.

[@OGTahoe3]

My friend uses Inalla but it's his high power deck. I can't really complain though because my high power deck is Narset

[@MasterBigJoe83]

Why not make a house rule with friends or have Wizards errata Eminence like they did the companions. Something like, 'The first time your commander enters the battlefield you get an emblem with Eminence.' Then you can continue using it even after your commander gets sent back to command zone. At least this way you have to successfully get your commander out at least once.

[@tankiegirl]

Great idea.

[@leonjakobsen272]

The only way way i could see eminence being designed well, is if it only gave you information. Like if you had a commander like elsha of the infinite that can cast cards from the top of your library, it could have an eminence ability that allowed you to always look at the top of your library

[@51gunner]

I feel like it could do something useful, but would need to be only printed on pretty weak commanders. Eminence feels like a free guaranteed enchantment your opponents can't remove. The only tradeoff I can see being fair, is if the commander itself is profoundly mediocre. After all, having a Commander in the command zone is functionally an eighth card in your opening hand that you're guaranteed to have. If that card is guaranteed to be meh, then MAYBE it makes up for the "free, impossible to remove enchantment" effect.

[@jordanlawlor89]

I feel the same way about rhystic as Tomer. I literally can’t talk about it reasonably cause it makes me so upset. 😂 Doesn’t need ANY synergy to draw 10 for 3. Then it taxes the whole table AND it takes up so much time deciding whether or not to pay for it. THEN it causes issues between players when people can pay it but don’t. Aaauugh!!

[@faperito2389]

You just always pay, that's it. Basically it taxes every spell until it's destroyed.

[@kyleellis1825]

@@faperito2389 No. Get the other 2 players to agree to cast cheap stuff and make the one with rhystic study self mill. But maybe this is because In my pod, I'm the guy who has the "everyone draws" stuff. Or the everyone gets a land/creature spells. It's really easy for me to give the other 2 players enough cards to finish of the one with rhystic. No one has palyed rhystic for over a year at my store (at least the nights I go).

[@asmodean7239]

Behemoth, Insurrection, Coalition victory, - they all cost 8. Consultation/oracle costs 3 in total. And nothing that happened before mattered.

[@Chuubii]

They named 90% of what Game Knights decks have :D

[@tribalmattersmtg5532]

If you’re playing Svyelun, you can play Paradigm Shift and Thoughtlash to combo with the Thassa’s Oracle. Also Thassa Deep-Dweller helps use the oracle firstly to search for your combo piece, then bounce to win!

[@bodaciouschad]

Rhystic Dissertation 6U: Enchantment Whenever an opponent casts a spell, draw a card if they do not pay 2.

[@josephpayton7522]

No way. 3UUU is better. not seven and not easily splashed and unconditional (no tax). I would prefer it to be printed in a cycle as UUUUU. That would be a cool cycle. Green one says your creatures get +X/+X where X is the number of lands you control. Lol.

[@bodaciouschad]

@@josephpayton7522 that wouldn't be a Rhystic effect. The Rhystic cycle involves doing something unless any opponent pays to prevent it.

[@josephpayton7522]

@@bodaciouschad Yeah. I don't want another rhystic cycle. Just a 5 pip cycle.

[@Frostgiantbutsmall]

@@josephpayton7522 at that point you might as well just run the magic mirror instead, UUUUU means only mono-blue, treasure decks, and people with expensive manabases get to cast it.

[@uandubh5087]

Love the name!

[@fishmelon7049]

1:08:05 This is funny to hear now due to the recent news about the mana crypt ban

[@shinobu-39]

I think the team finds Insurrection boring because of the usual problem people have with theft. It's deemed "easy" because they're winning with other people's resources. But it's actually not that easy to have that many creatures on board if the pod is playing responsibly and actually wiping the board. If the problem with it being boring is that you just do nothing until you cast Insurrection, that's not exactly the safe play. This would mean you're waiting for the board to have a lot of creatures. If you were doing nothing, those creatures were probably attacking you for being open. But maybe I'm a little biased because I play Marchesa theft and there were too many times when I had nothing good to steal.

[@daniellopez3463]

seeing these pop up in my feed make my lunch breaks 1000x better

[@atevalve]

Goldfather is definitely the best version of that name though

[@DarkusMagus]

Crim - " So I can attack on two fronts" .Me - Yeah, emotionally and emotionally.

[@Ixidora]

I love how at 16:00 they almost perfectly described Jolene, the Plunder Queen: "Whenever a player attacks one or more of your opponents, that attacking player creates a Treasure token.", she also makes sure you benefit the most with her second ability: "If you would create one or more Treasure tokens, instead create those tokens plus an additional Treasure token." It really exemplifies the just immense number of new cards being created.

[@DrSwole12]

Love the videos and discussions. If y’all could in post add the cards you mention on screen it would be really helpful because not everyone knows every card of course, especially newer players. I know it’s more work but would definitely up the quality. Thanks!

[@brushwagg7735]

One thing worth noting about Curse of Opulence: gold doesn’t have to tap to for its ability which can be relevant sometimes.

[@DylanHunter64]

"These 4 Eminence commanders are all broken!" Oloro: 😢

[@bongzong9824]

Five. Never forget Oloro.

[@starmanda88]

Its so funny because he used to be one of the most hated commanders. Now he seems quaint in comparison to the other eminence commanders 😂

[@Kryptnyt]

@@starmanda88 I still know better than to think an Oloro deck isn't going to try to play fair Magic though haha

[@jaygiemtg7511]

Don't forget Derevi. Basically anything that messes with the command zone is bad, I think.

[@baconsir1159]

@@jaygiemtg7511 I actually don't mind Ur, just because Dragons tend to be overcosted

[@HurjaZac]

I think cards that win the game for the person way behind are fun as long as you don't play tutors or too many of them in same deck they keep the interest in the game even if you are far behind. if you don't run them you can get a feeling so easily that "there is no way I win here" and this feeling leads me to bully the player that made me loose

[@weeklyweeks7545]

This video aged like a fine wine!!

[@dennissteubing909]

Richard is the Gold Token punch bag of the Goldfish edh grp. The only reason he does not like curses, because he´s the one always gets cursed.

[@jaygiemtg7511]

And he still wins anyway.

[@jackhemsworth7515]

@@jaygiemtg7511 With a Bird

[@oORoOFLOo]

I wouldnt say the only. Curses are miserable. Good flavour, but who wants to feel miserable in edh game

[@soleo2783]

​@@oORoOFLOo we have 3 of the 5 colors in mtg, black, white and blue, where half the good cards from those colors are miserable cards.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

The way Richard talks you’d think the curse players has them in their hand turn 1. I might see the point if curses had a commander that can really bury you consistently early game and that certainly isn’t what that grixis lady is doing.

[@RyanEglitis]

He's just salty because his biggest creature is a 2/2, so he can never block.

[@TransformersBoss]

Instead of banning Dockside Extortionist, they decided to reprint it in a high-cost premium set for whales. Man the harpoons! Thaaaaar she blows!

[@Kryptnyt]

Same with Mana Drain

[@RyanEglitis]

Shipside Extortionist!

[@alexandrebelair4360]

@@Kryptnyt Mana drain ain't worth a ban tho. It also was reprinted often.

[@RyanEglitis]

I don't play Deadeye most of the time because it's bad, not because it's too good. If you know what you're doing, you can just remove it in response to the soulbond trigger when the player tries to use it for value or to combo. And it's six mana, plus two to even use it.

[@petersteiman2443]

Having Crim in your playgroup is the real curse of friendship.

[@MrGrovak]

One thing to note about the Curse of Opulence as well is the fact that the tokens aren't required to tap so that tap artifacts on ETB (authority of consuls) doesn't matter.

[@shadogiant]

Crim crushing the Prof in commander makes sense now.

[@patrickwills1033]

I have two decks with Curse of Verbosity that I actually cast on myself. One is a Minn deck with the goal of drawing two cards on each player's turn. The other is a monarch/initative deck. It's nice to get some extra value when someone takes the crown.

[@peytonmillner6417]

Interesting part of curses is you can cast it on yourself and punish being attacked.

[@jamesmoore1317]

Did you guys watch Game Knights w/ the Baldur's Gate precons? Lexi Drew like 20-30 cards off of Josh with her rhystic study and sealed the deal with expropriate and dockside...

[@damnjekyll]

Tomer's giant smile while Richard complained about Opulence made my day. xD Every week Richard has some new weird card he wants everyone to stop playing cuz he got absolutely wrecked by it 🤣 Didn't even lose the game because of it n he still hanging on ahahahha

[@hungrybasss]

You can interact with thoracle by making the person draw a card if their library is empty or by lowering their devotion via removal if they tried to play safe, and that can be done in most colors. Mikokoro, center of the sea is a good colorless utility land.

[@lukestorm4566]

It's less than or equal too, so normally lowering devotion does nothing

[@marshallscot]

Pathbreaker Ibex is basically a repeatable Craterhoof for less mana.

[@durandalbbcom]

Hey gang! Another excellent episode as usual. Just wanted to give you a heads up that the stitcher podcasts are not updating anymore. We haven't gotten one in several weeks. Thank you!

[@theSHELFables]

1:11:52 Green is one of the best colors for dealing with Insurrection since it has fogs. Same for white. More people should be running fogs in general imo. They also deal with the Craterhoof swing too :)

[@reachingforthesun]

Richard lol Curse of Opulence is totally raw though, right haha. Attack with ornithopter 😃🔥✔️

[@obsidiansiriusblackheart]

16:00 Curses should either be instants that last for like one/two turn cycles (ie "until your next turn") or they should move around the board to "player with most life" "player with most mana among lands/treasures" etc. WAY more fun/fair mechanically

[@thickpickles2325]

Fishfather is cool but Goldfather sounds better!

[@jaygiemtg7511]

*Deadeye Navigator:* I feel like it's somewhat comparable to Recurring Nightmare in that once it hits the battlefield, as long as you're playing it correctly, it's EXTREMELY hard to actually deal with it. Obviously Recurring Nightmare is harder to deal with being an enchantment and returning itself to your hand before passing priority, but they end up playing very similarly for your opponents once they actually hit the battlefield. *Curse of Opulence:* I pretty much agree with Richard, but I still play it in more aggressive decks like Saskia where the extra damage helps a LOT. *Rhystic Study:* I don't play this card at all anymore. It's just sooooooo strong. I hate having to be the person asking "do you pay the 1" every time anyone plays a spell. *The 'Eminence' ability:* It's absolutely busted, and a mistake. That said, Inalla Wizard-Reanimator is one of my favorite decks I've ever built, and I've also had an Arabho deck in the past and it was really fun. *Craterhoof Behemoth:* I don't think this card is too powerful. I'm just tired of it. It's been the go-to win condition for green creature decks that can go wide in any capacity for a little over a decade(over 1/3 of this game's existence) and it's just gotten old at this point. *Insurrection:* I hate anticlimactic wins. I agree with Seth's question "does that person deserve to win." Yeah they picked a good time to cast Insurrection and end the game, but losing because you played your cards and your opponent resolved a single spell isn't what I think commander should be. *Mana Crypt:* I just hate all fast mana. If I could theoretically recreate the banned list, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Moxen, Jeweled Lotus, and maybe Grim Monolith would all be on it. *Dockside Extortionist:* See Mana Crypt. *Thassa's Oracle:* I think the other wincons in your deck matter a lot with ThOracle for me. If you're playing it as a value card in something like Kumena or Thassa Deep-Dwelling, then I think it's fine. If you're playing a control deck with ThOracle as your ONLY wincon and you're doing it every single game, then I absolutely hate it. In general, it's really hit-or-miss. *Avenger of Zendikar:* I think this card is beyond okay in commander. In fact, it's almost a perfect card to demonstrate everything great AND wrong with commander in my mind. Good ) it's a really cool, splashy spell that doesn't win the game immediately but is still a big threat when it comes down. Bad ) it highlights everything wrong with Ramp in the format by doing exactly what Richard said - it makes late game ramp very strong, which reverses the downside that normally comes with playing ramp spells. *Expropriate:* The only problem with this card is when your opponent values their single permanent more than giving you an extra turn. Any time you cast Expropriate and you take 2 extra turns, you will win. It's still very strong only getting 1 extra turn, but not necessarily game-ending. Time Warp + Blatent Thievery is a really cool effect for 9 mana. *Necropotence:* Less annoying, more powerful Rhystic Study. Rhystic Study is a 3 mana draw 10? Necro is a 3 mana draw 20+. Even the "fair" play where you just refill your hand every turn is super powerful.

[@RyanEglitis]

Not really - you just have to use removal _after_ they use deadeye, when the soulbond trigger is on the stack. It's very fragile, just not a lot of people realize they have a chance to respond after the blink. Agree with most of your other points though.

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

@@RyanEglitis if they have the mana to activate it again in response to the removal spell then they could still protect it, but that's still a LOT of mana.

[@RyanEglitis]

@@jordangroblewsky2087 No, they can't, because you wait until the creature comes back in, when the soulbond trigger is on the stack. At that point, 0 creatures in play have the ability to blink. Of course, you can't choose when to try to kill it - you need to wait for them to use it first on their own. But if they never use it, then you've neutralized it without even spending a card.

[@adamrobinson6951]

I feel like there are straightforward ways to balance several of these cards/abilities. Curses: Give them an equip cost that can be activated at sorcery speed by the cursed player. That cost could be roughly double the original cost of casting the curse, and cannot target the player who cursed you. Eminence: As stated, have the eminence ability only active after the commander has been in play, as a permanent emblem. Eminence abilities are powerful, but generally not as powerful as static abilities on similarly costed commanders so keeping the ability despite the commander being removed feels balanced. I still don't see the issue with Craterhoof. You have to have a substantially wide board presence, as it's almost a wasted card if you control 0-4 creatures, and also have 8 mana minimum plus any left open to protect it/yourself. Otherwise, it's a dead card in your hand. I put Avenger of Zendikar in this same category - it's good but isn't single handedly winning games - the spot 7 mana cards should occupy. Similarly, Insurrection is only valuable if your opponents have enough creatures on average to deal lethal and have no sac outlets. It doesn't win the game for a player who's behind unless their opponents over committed to the board, which wipes already punish. Realistically, if you're in last place on the board your Insurrection is probably getting you second place after you take out two opponents, leaving yourself tapped out for the third. I'd be content with Coalition Victory if you had to have an untapped basic land of each type, plus an untapped creature for each colour (minimum 10 permanents). However, I'm not a fan of alternate win cons that come out of nowhere and would prefer this to be an enchantment that triggers on your next upkeep. This is the same issue with Thassa's Oracle, where players have no opportunity to interact with your win con. Ban Mana Crypt. And Sol Ring. And Chrome Mox, Jewelled Lotus, Lotus Petal, Moxes and any other card that generates more mana than it costs for immediate use. This would include things like Dockside too. If I had my way, all free to cast spells would also be banned, as I feel they do more harm to the format than good since their downsides or requirements are never harsh enough to discourage playing them for free. IMO, a free counterspell that dealt 10 damage to the caster or required you to discard a card with equal CMC to the countered card would be close to appropriately balanced - in that I could see certain decks choosing to run it while others wouldn't.

[@nheimi99]

Tomer! Adapt your tribal tribal to a Moritte of the Frost build? Could be a fun play on it with only two colors and no eminence.

[@CraigLoos]

I have seen Thassa's Oracle/Demonic Consultation combo in non-CEDH decks several times. It has caused me to put Jester's Cap and Extract in my decks.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

That sucks, you see these type of decks at locals or online?

[@CraigLoos]

@@Blacklodge_Willy at the local game store. I also tried Null Chamber once, but all it did was slow them down until they got rid of the enchantment. Granted, it does not happen every week, but enough for me to add cards to my decks on the off chance they can show up.

[@atevalve]

I play Dockside Extortionist in my Goblin Artifact deck, and honestly the only deck where I think it's more appropriate is probably Pirates, and I still take it out depending on playgroup.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

May I ask sense you seem to be playing it more for theme, do you feel like it's busted, do you feel like you get a absurd amount of treasures? Are you playing with groups with early turn mana rocks where this gets you so much value?

[@atevalve]

@@Blacklodge_Willy Depends on your definition of absurd, I usually get 5-ish. The problem is how easy it is to abuse compared to Jeska's Will and other rituals which make similar amounts of mana.

[@EdBurke37]

Someone on Reddit gave me the best argument for Coalition Victory remaining banned, way better than the RCs reasoning. It's not that it ends the game, it's what it does to play patterns. Specifically the play patterns of people playing against it. If CV is unbanned then every 5C deck would be better for running it. Which then means that the correct play pattern when playing against ALL five color decks would be to blow up their lands and kill their 5c commander so much they can't play it. It makes it miserable FOR THE PERSON PLAYING THE 5C DECK.

[@73nickson]

… good? 5 color decks are inherently uninteresting, they essentially sidestep the commander color restrictions that every other commander in the format has to play by, and with how wizards prints dual and tri lands these days they are no longer even limited by color fixing. If the default play pattern of most commander players was to attack the mana base of 5 color decks at least there would be an actual downside to them.

[@richmondlau5945]

tomer doesnt like chaos week, but doesnt mind taking 50 mins to go off while everybody else sits and watches

[@matthewpopow6647]

Cool idea for a curse cycle. Cheap, same wording, then an activated ability (either just mana or maybe somehow related to the curse) to give it to attach it to a different player other than the owner

[@ankleshot9622]

I love my Arahbo deck. And the eminence ability is actually just too good. Yes it's "safe" in that it's pretty much impossible to combo with, but a free +3/+3 is still really good. It changes all the combat math in my favor and makes the green card draw (Rishkar's Expertise) really good.

[@starmanda88]

I love mine too! He’s so much fun. I get why people hate it though.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

Considering that my lone commander deck is a voltron deck that needs to bash someone in until they die one at a time as soon as possible, color me unsympathetic toward cards that cause one person to be dunked on. As far as Rhystic Study, it is super good, yes. I still remember one game where my friend managed to play it on-curve and drew a grand total of one card off of it, and it was on the turn where they were dead on board.

[@adamgarcia5616]

Every play group has a Crim…and everyone wants their Crim to go home

[@KingQuetzal]

Did 14 mana Enter the Infinite, Thassa's Oracle the other day in my mid tier deck after a Black Market and Boardwipe. Felt good.

[@peggle09]

I love playing my Goad deck so much. It creates interactions and faster games. The Rani from Dr Who is very good for this.

[@AlaricHeiss]

I feel like I should cut Seedborn Muse. It makes me feel guilty for hogging time on everyone's turn. With all the Winding Canyons effects avaliable, it's very low effort to turn it into the rightfully-banned Prophet of Kruphix. I was hoping it would make the list so I could hear what the crew thought about it. I almost think of it as the green Rhystic Study.

[@m4l4kan]

So half this list should be "cards we are jaded on, since we have played commander for so long".

[@TheSmartCinema]

Richard's analogy of the younger brother getting cursed to get rid of him, damn that hit home way too hard XD

[@Starkipraggy]

Rhystic Study exemplifies everything wrong with blue, blue is just allowed to constantly steal from other colours' colour pie AND do it *better* either through asymmetry or cheaper mana costs. And other colours aren't allowed to steal back, there are like 5 counterspells outside of blue and none of them are "counter target spell period". All of them either give your opponent something back or let them recast it eventually.

[@DoomGuyDestructotron]

Richard complaining about Curse of Opulence is hilarious to me. "Too powerful" is the wildest take on this card.

[@Friendofsquirrel]

I know lololol

[@tankiegirl]

I really like it but combine it with Goad

[@lokifeyson]

Love it, my main deck is bant Derevi and I run all these, I love that deck cause it literally has so many win cons, loops, combos and synergy. But it loses just as easy as any other deck at the end of the day

[@josephwebster2319]

For eminence seems easy to fix though, turn it to a triggered ability so cards that can interrupt those work and add things that directly interact with eminence cards

[@sophiepedigree7139]

''6 years ago, WAY back in the day'' Thanks, I feel old now

[@cyrus1380]

I really wish they used Eminence as a way to 'balance' playing strange tribal decks - creatures types that don't have a lot of support already so they need a bit of a buff to be usable in Commander as a theme.

[@DeathEatsCurry]

Gotta love the fact I've seen like 75% of these cards at "casual" tables at my LGS.

[@Beledroski]

Jolene the plunder queen is a new version (somewhat) of Curse of Opulence. Whenever a player attacks One of your opponents (any opponent) the attacking player gets a treasure. So it incentivizes attacking but not just one person, it’s pats to attack any of your enemies.

[@supranova7594]

Sames been true for edric spymaster and drawing cards, only difference is he's been around long enough for people to know better

[@jaygiemtg7511]

*Before watching the video* My philosophy is "Lead by Example." If I don't like playing against a card, or think a card is too powerful, then I shouldn't put it into my own decks. Dockside Extortionist, Necropotence, 'efficient' tutors(Demonic, Vampiric, etc.), Fast Mana, etc. Now I won't refuse to play against a person who DOES play these cards, but I want to advocate for not being "required" to play them to be able to have fun and win your share of games. Not playing these cards gives me extra slots in my deck to play those interesting, less efficient cards that always get edged out otherwise. That's really what makes commander interesting to me long-term.

[@ArtEPersonal]

Flame blitz is one of my most favorite one drop red spells.

[@robertmitchell8052]

Seth, you mentioned Arahbo is at least OK and powered down, it's surprisingly still very strong, we have a player in our group who loves it...

[@themoakman]

Add something along this line of text to Curse of Opulence to help fix it. “At the beginning of enchanted player’s upkeep that player may exile curse of opulence, if they do, return curse of opulence to play enchanted to another target opponent.”

[@vicioushellsing]

This whole "game continues for another hour" thing is so rare in the groups I play in. Games end between turns 7-10. And those turns just get faster once people start dropping out. I wonder if that is more of an MTGO thing. Because I find games on there are like 50% slower than in paper.

[@RyanEglitis]

People need to learn to yield properly, but yeah, it still takes a longer time on MTGO for a lot of games. And it sucks when you can't yield because you have to hold up an effect.

[@madskillswills]

@@RyanEglitis I've removed viscera seer from decks that could definitely use it for this exact reason

[@itskmillz]

Because you have to actually physically click one land at a time, the game stops for every time a player gets priority unless they auto pass it. Lot of things are clunky in MTGO.

[@kyleellis1825]

@@RyanEglitis It's not just the people who know they lost (unless they draw that one "key" card). It's also the players with a winning board state who will just sit back and not push for the win.

[@SithOnix]

I know this is old - but I only run rhystic study in decks where I have access to blue but only by accident. Like grixis demons, where I'm playing this and sign in blood as card draw.

[@marshallscot]

I don't even play red, but I don't see any issue with Insurrection. If you can survive that long to cast an 8 mama spell then you deserve to cast it.

[@michaelroy1175]

Someone deadeye navigatored me with a Craterhoof. It was amazing

[@Lenny_IRL6790]

I'd like to see curses come with a duration attached or a way to end it, kinda like curses work in fantasy anyway. Curse of Opulence could have "limited gold" aka time counters, etc. Or Imagine if you became "rich enough" that the curse broke (acquire 5 treasures or 6 land, etc) something that signifies wealth. Dunno... just another way to think about making curses more interactive/dynamic

[@uandubh5087]

That's a neat idea!

[@RyanEglitis]

Could be cool if you could sac a permanent at sorcery speed to move them to an opponent (probably not the owner).

[@thebrbninja]

Do you think that Curses could be better if they had an option for the cursed player to pay some type of cost to shift the curse to someone other than the card owner?

[@ciaran.downey]

I think that would be a great improvement. Sort of similar to the new Hold for Ransom card from SNC, except it reattaches instead of sacc-ing. Would probably have to be at sorcery speed too

[@thebrbninja]

@@ciaran.downey would definitely need to be at sorcery speed

[@FidoPhilanthropist]

I've seen evidence to the contrary, but I still can't truly believe that Richard has ever played a game of Commander.

[@shadowmyst9661]

I’ve had a copy of Dockside Extortionist since it came out basically and I’ve never played it once. Not because I was against it, but because I either never drew it, I lost it or the game before I could cast it, or I only drew it in games where it would produce so few Treasures that I was better off playing something else. Somehow I actually managed to never resolve a Dockside Extortionist a single time from its release all the way to its banning.

[@davidbain7629]

Curses/political cards and mechanics in general are funny how different they are per playgroup. For my play group, curse of opulence is not enough to encourage people to swing at them.

[@skykur]

Same here. I’m the only aggro player in my group. I play almost every single “Attacking gives you stuff!” cards, and it still doesn’t incentivize my playgroup to attack. It’s sad

[@Aburaishi]

I think I'm with Crim and Richard on Thoracle - obviously Demonic Consultation should be banned, but if you're fairly self-milling in a 100-card format you earned the win dude. Someone should've done literally anything in the meantime to break up the engine you were assembling, or to interact with your cards in some way (discard? shuffling graveyards?), or to just straight up kill you. The fact that it's difficult to interact with Thoracle (or any ETB for that matter) really doesn't scream "bannable" to me

[@SxTheBo]

In my group we play with rystic, necropotence and smothering + wheel plus some big enchantment as finisher so to balance that we fill the deck with as much enchantment removal as possible and it's kind of okeysh...

[@rainmaker709]

To be fair to the Eminence mechanic, it was made at a time where the tuck rule was still in effect. If you played it, there was real risk of your commander getting either shuffled into or placed on bottom of your desk with a variety of cards. Now the only answer is Darksteel Mutation style effects. That said, most of the cycle wasn't that bad but Edgar and Inalla just giving free creatures was to much even back then.

[@Zakading]

Even back then, the tuck rule really wasn't relevant for it, since neither Eddy nor Inalla care much about ever being on the field for 99% of their decks' wincons.

[@zacharyklewin3603]

I agree with everything on this list except avenger of zendikar. I think it's still a strong card, but there are just more impactful options in even many green decks

[@marshallscot]

Yeah, they quickly shifted to, "Oh it's not THAT powerful it's just boring." Like ok, that's subjective, but there's clearly way more powerful green cards out there for 7 mana. They just hate landfall I guess.

[@diogomoraes6790]

really like the discussion. noticed it evolved over the course of the episode and hopefuly to a better place. #crimforpresident

[@bryanstokke6566]

I comboed off with my blink deck his week using deadeye, perigrine, and agent of treachery on turn five. Didn't feel as satisfying as I had hoped. Might remove deadeye too.

[@mitchellmiller5064]

In my experience a lot of times curse of opulence keeps the cursed player in longer. You're better incentivized to swing with only one creature their way. The longer that Player lives, the more ramp everyone else gets and that player is also lagging behind on Mana production so they won't develope into a threat as quickly as the other players may be able to. It can be a bit of a feel bad, but it's not *too* powerful in my opinion.