Commander Cards that are (Basically) Banned | EDH | Unwritten Rule | Magic the Gathering | Commander

[@werbearjack]

"The Rules Committee can't stop you from playing any banned cards." That's what they want you to think - until a SWAT team storms your LGS because someone tried to cast Lutri in a game of Commander.

[@francisoboyle6136]

Lutri did nothing wrong. We should ban the rules committee,

[@KokoMakesThings]

But what if... LUTRI IS MY COMMANDER? :DD

[@MarcosAntonio-fl5ox]

A ban is a ban. Try to cheat it and soon you will be finding your way into immediate execution. :)

[@faerie7dragon]

No, an Otter can't be your commander, they are icky and ugly.

[@AntipaladinKent1]

gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74314

[@mulldrifterz6469]

These types of cards being "unofficially" banned is the reason green is the most powerful colour in Commander.

[@VexylObby]

Mulldrifter Z Nope. It’s the lack of basic building blocks that white and red do not have as much. Dockside extortionist and Land Tax are a good start.

[@GollyGoshSensation]

@@VexylObby You know what beats those basic building blocks? The stuff on this list. Everything in magic has a counter and the reason why Green is the best colour in EDH is because you can't play the cards on this list without looking like a duck.

[@VexylObby]

@@GollyGoshSensation I would (kinda) agree in a two player context. Balance is a valid response, especially as it doesn't turn off the rest of your friends at the table. There hundreds of other cards you could be using.

[@Jkuchenbrod]

ramp decks in general- I built a deck to show people that its time to play landdestruction and that its totally ok

[@Gwinnmusic]

Notice how many of these stuff are also in Boros - the so-called weakest color in EDH.

[@frostybag]

Here’s the thing though: we as a community complain about white’s power level, while at the same time denouncing the kind of stax/hate/mld effects that white is good at (eg armageddon, land tax, etc).

[@Failbl0gpwn]

@@XCodes but if you play Armageddon on turn 4 it's your own fault for making the game suck. I play it in my avacyn deck and people just learn how to deal with the commander.

[@VexylObby]

Nah, we expect white to have the same kind of basic tools blue and green have, not some radical other feature like mass land destruction.

[@Failbl0gpwn]

@@VexylObby but then that takes away from having a color pie. If every color can do the same thing the same basic way playing that color is not special. Also red has land destruction both single and mass. Black also has land destruction but it hasn't been done since the beginning of the game

[@Failbl0gpwn]

Scratch that. All colors can do land destruction.

[@VexylObby]

BlueSaltz I’m not saying all colors need the exact same mechanic. They just need advantage and synergy on par in their own mechanics. MLD is extreme and not a good solution for a 4 player format.

[@lordofthemound3890]

I’ll stop playing Armageddon in white when everybody stops ramping.

[@muroderepolho69]

If you're monowhite i think it's kinda fair really Just remember to talk about it

[@JRPKeller]

"I will stop making the game take thirty extra minutes when people stop making the game take forty minutes less"

[@smolclips5996]

Smothering tithe into armageddon is a 2 card mono white win combo

[@sam7559]

@@JRPKeller mass land destruction is there check for mass land ramp. It's the reason why green is considered the most powerful color

[@victoralencar7150]

There are better ways to stop this without screwing the game, like using Aven Mindcensor effects.

[@JaneDoe-tz8tw]

I'd argue Armageddon is one of white strongest commander cards due to its ability to swing things in your favor if you have a better board state at a very effective rate. This list is mainly anti-stax which is super effective against green's current dominance right now imo

[@durge12]

as someone who has an armageddon deck, i think armageddon effects are hated for two reasons. one, the salt. two, there is a concern that when someone casts an armageddon, they dont have a way to win afterward and they're just casting it for the meme. the "but it stops the green player going off" falls on deaf ears. personally i like to drop an armageddon while i control avacyn so my lands are fine and i have a decent clock onboard to slowly win the game while people struggle to find an answer. i do like to remind people that avacyn dies to a swords to plowshares, which you only need to hit one land after an armageddon to cast

[@JaneDoe-tz8tw]

@@durge12 It does feel like there is a divide when Armageddon is one of the most hated cards yet one of the most played cards is cyclonic rift which isn't symmetrical and has probably won far more games. There are plenty of videos hating or rift sure but far more hating on armageddon and stax pieces in general.

[@wD945]

I run armageddon in my avacyn angel of hope deck and it's basically a win con. I don't feel bad for using it when my commander Is 8 mana and mono-white.

[@Alessandro-vv2fh]

@@wD945 Fair, you sold me.

[@wobblefoot7607]

Amen brother. Stax is my favorite deck archetype. Green must pay for its sins

[@jayhenry2197]

The thing I always take away from conversations like this: Boros isn't weak, it's just been nerfed to Hell and back.

[@Angela1111122222]

I tied lately to brew some Zirda deck because she's hella cute and thought that it would be cool to have a boros that's not an aggro stereotype and generally get out of my color comfort zone Yeah I had to make most of the deck artifacts to equalize some aspects of the game and ended up with the whole deck trying to do the minimal of what other decks do in fancy ways rather than doing a thing of their own and ultimately resigned :

[@Jkuchenbrod]

unnecessarily and unjustified nerfed, to be honest. Boros is incredibly strong when you embrace your colours to its fullest

[@freerunner1953]

Nah, still weak

[@SWAT6809]

I dislike the stigma around those cards as being "not fun to play". Dont let the EDH community pressure you into not playing cards youd like to try. And Armageddon especially is a fine answer to Green Decks doing nothing but ramp the first 4-5 turns.

[@crovax1375]

I agree. The only answer to big ramp white has is land destruction. So not playing land destruction really hurts

[@haeilsey]

Yeah like why can the green player get 7 extra lands but if I get mana rocks that's fair game to destroy

[@danielbretado7660]

Learning the lessons of social play, rule 0, what is fun, these have all been painful lessons to learn. I choose to address this by having the right deck for the job. Some jank here, some high power there, some policing decks. Nowadays, I just enjoy playing and being with friends. I only play cutthroat to even the odds.

[@VexylObby]

At the same time, we are o my 25% of the table, and the group experience matters. Also, there are hundreds of other card choices to even the odds that do not involve stopping the table from playing magic. Additionally, one should ask themselves what their ideal experience is in the first place, and find groups that are like minded.

[@wobblefoot7607]

Slapping down an Armageddon after you’ve stuck a smokestack and a token generator might as well be GG in a lot of cases. I think these cards can be played just not “for the memes” I think bad pilots have probably put Armageddon in a bad light because they had no plan after.

[@MekanikKommandoh88]

Exactly. You play Armageddon when you have other pieces in play to secure a game, not just for the “lulz”.

[@turtelboy123]

Yeah nothing tilts me more than when someone establishes a decent board then uses cyclonic rift with armageddon to end the game pretty much

[@damo9961]

People that get peeved at armageddon can GTFO. Nothing wrong with resetting the board. If you cant deal with it find a new game. Or I can stop playing my mono white and play my fully kitted out Urza or Food Chain Prossh

[@wobblefoot7607]

@@damo9961 Amen brother. Thats what I do when people complain about my mono-white Isamaru. No Arma? Fine I'll play Animar.. or food chain Korvold.. or COnsultation Kess.

[@chickenwyngs3646]

The longest game I ever played was a 7 player game, 5.5 hours long. Armageddon was cast twice, Cyclonic Rift three times. Maybe it’s because I won, and I wasn’t the one that cast Armageddon or Rift a single time, but it was the most fun I ever had in a game of Magic

[@___ooobodybagooo___]

Imagine bring a loser to that game. I feel bad losing a 2 hour game. But I love the game. But 5 hours.

[@wiimotecactus3124]

I've play a 7 hour game before with 5 players, 4 of which were playing control

[@unbanrofellos5786]

Kroxa discard tribal and Zurs Wierding make for a long game

[@Jonathan-qk5ed]

Should I even tell you about a 14 person pod I once got into... To sum it up quickly: It took a little longer than usual... Just a LITTLE ;)

[@Jonathan-qk5ed]

@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 It was everyone for themselves.

[@gluttonne]

The social contract thing is starting to feel like bullying. "I don't like that aspect of MTG, so you're not allowed to play it!"

[@PraetorGix]

Completely agree. Fuck the social contract, it's not ok for others to tell you that you can play however you want as long as you play like them.

[@longhairhiggins]

like, I came into commander from an entirely unmagic background, being from serious aspirations in yugioh. I kind of hate this whole unwritten rule nonsense. The line between what is fun and not fun is arbitrary for each player, and it's a slippery slope into an uninteractive game. It feels like some of these players just don't want to deal with anything that impedes their strategy or makes it take too long. I think games have to have metaphorical value in order for them not to be a total waste of time, and that kind of whiney, no this is too hard or no this makes things take too slow is an unhealthy mindset. If my guy wants to play hard stax land hate, then why not figure out how to play around him and win instead of just pouting and whining about it?

[@damonlouis6536]

are you triggered bruh? Karen's need to do ther research before playing Sheldon's format.

[@breezyday10]

It’s borderline narcissism.

[@ashutoshmadhu9821]

@@longhairhiggins I'm so glad that someone has stated this. It's annoying to deal with people who simply DON'T want to adapt to the changes in the Meta as the game is being introduced to new cards as time goes on.

[@rafaelribeiro1871]

Won't lie. I auto put Decree of Annihilation in my Gavi deck. Cycling it + Boros Charm, my playgroup simply accepts as an 'alternate win condition'.

[@ms.aelanwyr.ilaicos]

I run Sunder+Cyclonic Rift as a "Win Condition" in my Patron of the Moon list. The cards are both individually powerful, but in tandem they are game-ending.

[@danielbretado7660]

As long as you win, I dont mind MD.

[@MarkusKohl-cv5mj]

That's why narset's reversal is my favorite recent card :D

[@Cyberium]

Good for you, and good for your group.

[@tylerrowe596]

I used to run Armageddon into Teferi's Protection or Heroic Intervention as a wincon in my Roon blink deck.

[@Jude_R_]

I have a deck with all these cards I only got to play it once

[@crovax1375]

I play a lot of the chaos cards in this video in a Ydris deck with Eye of the Storm

[@Mike-kb5sl]

Is it because the other players burry you in a shallow grave afterwards?

[@matthewradabaugh1635]

Five color pox stasis prison land destruction?

[@senoreverything6366]

@@matthewradabaugh1635 so just better death and taxes?

[@matthewradabaugh1635]

Señor Everything DnT is monowhite, maybe splashing a color, to increase consistency to play a game where you attack with 2/1s 3/1s and 2/2s because those creatures facilitate the game plan. Which by the cant work in commander because it plays a bad aggrieved game and a good tax game. Taxes in commander don’t work because of the overly large amount of land based ramp. That is why land destruction is typically quite good in commander.

[@NetGhoul666]

Mitch: "Commander is a social game" Also Mitch: Plays *14 boardwipes*

[@lracseroom8286]

Yeah, when he was bitching about Armageddon near the beginning of the video and saying "it takes a game that takes 45 minutes and makes it into a game that takes 2 hours" I was thinking "Um, like playing an excessive amount of board wipes does?". Seems like he suffers the all too common bullshit mentality of "What I play is fair, what you play is unfair."

[@mangohub3252]

Lrac Seroom I mean tbf to Mitch he’s said that it was unfun to have 14 broad wipes and swapped several out of his decks

[@deelight6022]

I mean, you're welcome to play anything you like, but I get more worried about how many games you'll actually get to play with it once you've gone through the whole ordeal of buying or building it. I could be the king of stax, but what does it matter when most of your playgroups refuse to deal with you?

[@nuhuhnope7579]

Land destruction does not deserve the hate it receives. It's an important mechanic from targeted to mass and anyone running it should have a way to capitalize on it. Any deck can just spin its gears and not win, not just land destruction. Cards like keldon firebombers and even armageddon push a win in an aggressive strategy or any strategy good at recovery. TL;DR if land destruction isn't winning games and only stalling them, it's a player problem not a card problem.

[@ROMANTIKILLER2]

I would start questioning what is a "casual" EDH game nowadays, with WotC printing more and more broken cards every new set (especially in Green, which imo is going out of control) as well as a general increase of power level in decks one may face. In any case, I do not see any issue with Stax or Land Destruction when facing those ramp decks that are quickly able to producte triple the mana other players can. I think even Stasis is fine as long as there is an actualy winning strategy behind and it's not just there to slow down the game.

[@bobby45825]

I play Nyxbloom ancient in my 4 color goodstuff deck and I'd totally understand if the rules committee said "We have to ban him as he's immeasurably better than prime time and significantly stronger". I HAVE to play him though and I don't ramp into him.

[@mikki429]

I've only ever seen Stasis in an Estrid stax deck. We scooped.

[@Drewbe821]

My group usually has a 1st time rule in place. If you are testing out a new deck, no matter how many edh hate cards are in it, you get to at least take it for a spin. Afterwards, it's on a case by case basis agreed upon by the pod.

[@jakx2ob]

Nobody expects mana dorks to stick around for ever, mana rocks get destroy a lot as well. Why should people get a pass for land ramp? People complain about the predominance of green and that white doesn't do enough. MLD is the great equaliser.

[@HeirophantCarneus]

Agreed.

[@victoralencar7150]

You don't need to ruin the game because of that. Try to use Aven Mindcensor or Ashiok from WoS, it stops land ramp AND tutoring.

[@HeirophantCarneus]

@@victoralencar7150 yeah but if the ramp has already happened (like in the first 3 turns) white needs land destruction to equalize.

[@MekanikKommandoh88]

Victor Alencar Or we can use all of them because they’re legal and people should just stop being so sensitive about it. It’s hilarious that these types of players MUST HAVE THEIR LAND RAMP but everything else is fair game to destroy and disrupt.

[@jakx2ob]

@@MekanikKommandoh88 I wouldn't completely disregard social contracts, my playgroup is based around social contracts as well. Nobody is playing Thassas Oracle combo.

[@waynefeller8824]

I think the most important thing you said is that it is up to you and your playgroup. I have 14 decks, ranging from cEDH to pretty casual. And I play in three different playgroups. Before pulling out a deck, we always talk about what is, and is not, OK. Sometimes people don't have the time to play against Stax. Other times, they are testing a new deck, and want to try it against specific decks/interactions. But by talking to each other, we can reach a level we are all OK with. Just last night, I wanted to play my Merieke theft deck. This one gets a lot of hate, because it has multiple outlets to steal or copy other people's permanents. The Emrakul, The Aeons Torn player asked if he could make a quick switch, and put Emrakul in the 99, and play Kozilek as the commander. We all agreed. (Yes, Emrakul is banned. But we allow it in this group.) But, in another group I play in, they asked I play something else, because they hate having their commander taken. So I played a Lu Xun, Scholar General control deck, instead. In my third playgroup, I play whatever I feel is most competitive, as this is an LGS weekly tournament with prizes, and there is not time/outlet to discuss deck levels beforehand. And this is also why I feel people should either build multiple decks, or modular decks. Building a Gitrog cEDH deck, when the rest of your group is playing Elfball, or Morophon everything tribal, is a bit unbalanced, and likely to be less fun for them, unless they are OK with it. And if they have options when you pull out your pubstomper deck.

[@___ooobodybagooo___]

I have a "rub the player the wrong way" tribal deck.

[@Cyberium]

Bless you.

[@marcusthompson7229]

Zeddruu?

[@goretoriumgaming8600]

I like being rubbed the wrong way

[@noahrebecca7929]

I would love to see a decklist

[@tylerhoffman4251]

You can rub me the wrong way ;)

[@GStreetEntertainment]

Just seeing the colour of the sleeves of my "Brago, King eternal" Deck with Stasis in it, makes them sigh in disappointment. I'm allowed to play it once every time we meet to play. ;-)

[@julianhugen8760]

Oh boy, Mitch really don't like chaos. Perhaps because of the mental overload that causes. But is so nice create a Possibility Storm deck and be able to calculate every scenario to be ahead everyone else with this messy card on the table. Sadly wizards don't print more light chaos cards like Possibility Storm.

[@Vaderi300]

A little chaos can be a good thing, chaos for chaos's sake sucks.

[@tandyo]

That's why you play chaos deck only on modo, you might not win but at least you don't have to think how to target every card on the battlefield at random

[@BladedChampion]

I never understood the hate for chaos it makes the game more interesting and dynamic and forces people to think on there feet

[@Jonathan-qk5ed]

@@BladedChampion It takes away most of the "skill/planning" from the game... If whatever I do is almost completely determined based on luck then are we playing a strategy game anymore?

[@Jonathan-qk5ed]

@SirScrodoTBaggins Saying it's fun is completely opinion based. Me: I enjoy playing against Stax since I have to find interesting unique lines of play of work around Orb effects, but fact has it most people hate playing against Stax. < Same can be said for Chaos.

[@herbhaley5895]

I used to play a Winter Orb/Icy Manipulator deck back in the mid to late 90's. It didn't go off many times, but was effective when it did. Land destruction should be a staple in Commander. No permanent should be sacrosanct. A player has 100 cards to start with and if they don't have an answer for one strategy, then too bad. BTW a player shouldn't have to say their playing with Armageddon or have to announce any other card they're playing with unless everyone is going to give a copy of their deck list to everyone else (that sets up a whole different, often hostile, dynamic). Currently I don't play mass land destruction in a deck, but I definitely include spot removal to get rid of an annoying non basic land.

[@CommanderReplay]

Everyone loses their shit over land destruction. But why is discard your entire hand off of narset and friends ok?

[@SeasOfCheese929]

I do like Thieves’ Auction as a win condition in Omnath LOR. Use your first pick on Omnath, and then just grab lands from there to get a ton of landfall triggers.

[@stormycat0905]

Some of the most fun games of EDH I've played were playing and playing against chaos decks.

[@FatJoeDeluxe]

The biggest problem is, if you forbid land destruction in your playgroup, everyone who is not playing any kind of green is at a big disadvantage. Ramp spells basically become unmatched spells and enable you to get a never ending resource. I play lots of land destruction in my mono red deck for example. Nothing like kill all of em, but nonetheless a good amount.

[@matthewradabaugh1635]

Only issue with the social contract is that it doesn’t disapprove of counter spells and green is too good if the best counter-play is frowned upon.

[@facelessgames94]

I use land destruction in my Jhoira (suspend) deck. Suspend obliterate and some other spells like a Etali or Eldrazi. Watch the panic on people's faces. Lands gets un counterably destroyed and I wrap up the game quickly with my free spells or annhialator triggers, keeping me way ahead, or my opponents way behind. It's only okay if it's your win con

[@facelessgames94]

@Volrath They don't have to be cool with it if they're dead

[@andrewamann2821]

Hot take: if your edh deck lacks tools to play through, over, or around stax, chaos, or mass land destruction, it's trash. If you lack the foresight in your deckbuilding to include insurance policies to protect your win, you're bad at building decks; if you can't identify your outs ("none" can be, but is rarely, a correct answer...), based on the current board state, you're bad at playing Magic; and if you don't allow yourself to learn the lessons these cards have to teach you, you will never get any better than you are, presently.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Learn your outs have interaction exactly ( :

[@ericpetersen6343]

Almost sounds like a deck tech for a deck called "jeskai salt mine"

[@crimson90]

Thieves' Auction makes my inner troll smile 😊

[@ModelOmegaForReal]

I dont subscribe to any social contract, but if someone shows up with a deck full of like 10 armageddons, omen machine, statsis etc. Im always going to target that player first because i hate games being slowed down by stuff like that.

[@danielbretado7660]

I am the same. Play what you want. But understand going foward, that deck will warrant a more stronger response.

[@VexylObby]

Keep in mind you are only 25% of the table.

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

i did play global ruin in a domain deck, but i only casted if i would win, or to stop someone with a loads of lands sometimes land nukes are just needed to stop a green player from winning

[@JB-sc3fr]

First game ever at my LGS I played against a smokestack deck. The game was fast and lame. I thought is this what it's like playing commander? It just encouraged me to build to stop that from happening

[@forgottenone5843]

Exactly you have 99 cards. If there is an archetype or something you dont like run interaction.

[@bastionunitb7388]

I have to ask Why do so many cards say "he or she?" sometimes this has to be said 3 or 4 times on a card Just say them or they it would streamline so many massive textboxes

[@mikki429]

"He or she" was standard / politically correct typography from I think the 60s or 70s through mid 20 teens. Oracle text and new cards from Dominaria forward use "they".

[@Angela1111122222]

I mean it's kinda heartwarming to see "she" on a card even If it's just a little thing. But I guess "they" is more socially inclusive now and I'm fine with it.

[@spot6532]

neither of these cards break the social contract on their own, but the fastest way to end a commander game by just having everyone scoop is casting Fractured Identity, then casting Radiate on it

[@firsthalthor]

How does this work?

[@catoticneutral]

That is so chaotic i love it

[@catoticneutral]

@@firsthalthor Basically, Fractured Identity takes a permanent from one player and gives every other player a copy of that permanent. Radiate basically makes a spell that would normally target one thing target every possible thing it could target. Therefore, if you play both of these cards, everyone loses all of their stuff but gets copies of everyone else's stuff, which causes a very chaotic board state that takes a long time to set up, since you have to get tokens to represent copies of every single land (most of which probably aren't in your decks colors, meaning you might not even be able to cast anything for a couple turns, plus none of the things on your massive board synergize with your commander)

[@firsthalthor]

Wow

[@brandonvoice8941]

@@DarkEinherjar this guy knows what he's taking about!

[@GamerdevilPro]

The main issue with powerful effects like these is if they are used "randomly". Example of that would be casting an early armageddon when nobody has anything going on yet "just because". Casting an armageddon is different if you have a commanding board presence and then can win from there or you have ways to make the effect assymetrical (like a boros charm). Possibility storm for example can be super annoying if it's just there to cause chaos. If you combine it with Mishra, artificier prodigy you can use it to get a huge advantage and if you combine possibility storm with Teferi, Time Raveler or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir you have a combo that hard locks your opponents out from casting spells, essentially winning you the game on the spot. Often the issue is this desire to be hyper casual and not wanting to include the appropriate wincons to these other cards that rubs ppl the wrong way.

[@sambarker4357]

If you think land destruction is bad, you've never played against a lands matter deck. They count on you not being able to destroy any lands so they can just keep their engine running.

[@lightsabermario]

A group of cards that was left out was the "lands tap for other mana" type, cards like Blood Moon, Contamination, Infernal Darkness, and maybe to a minor extent Hall of Gemstone. They lock opponents out of using their lands for their colors and for some of them, there's nothing they can do about it.

[@dataghost2307]

I created social distancing with these cards.

[@nharviala]

Kind of surprised Sire of Insanity wasn't on this list.

[@markmaiefski]

I think that's partial because sire of insanity is actually usable in red-black decks as a win condition. Generally, players are going to run it when they have discard or graveyard based decks that can take advantage of both graveyards with cards such as Rekindled Flame, Chainer, Nightmare Adept, or squee. Card draw is not only a solid counter but a mainstay in most commander decks. It also doesn't wipe the field or really alter the board state meaning that there is not a significant change in a player's ability to win only their ability to maintain momentum.

[@bobby45825]

You can kill him before it hits endsteps. Also, madness decks and cards like Loxodon smiter, Nullhide Ferox, Wilt-leaf Liege, and Obstinate Baloth can take big advantage of being forced to discard. Lastly, if you play cards like Dread Return and have a field...you'll probably win.

[@RetroMaticGamer]

Social Contract? Decree of Annihilation? Dude, if players don't like me using Jhoira of the Ghitu to Suspend in Decree and Blightsteel Colossus on the same turn, they're welcome to scoop. I mean, I had it won anyways...

[@tygarioofbloodrock9618]

I’d just like to say that I play both Armageddon and Smokestack at a table that also plays Stasis

[@DimT670]

You and three other people

[@raphaeldean5801]

That's good!

[@tygarioofbloodrock9618]

Shadow Gamer yeah, we call it shitty commander. It’s Hokori v Lavinia v Grand Arbiter v Slobad

[@ML7WL]

It's an entire new format xD

[@TDOsterberg]

I love all of these cards

[@ElucidYT]

You're Satan incarnate

[@TDOsterberg]

@@ElucidYT I've cast obliterate, decree of anhilation, and Armageddon, and warp world each a few times

[@MrHanderson91]

@@TDOsterberg hissssssss

[@TDOsterberg]

@@MrHanderson91 And all of them have been in the same deck, with 30 more boardwipes

[@ericdillard6335]

@@TDOsterberg Numot, the devestator boardwipe tribal is my favorite deck I've ever played

[@ww11gunny]

my thing with mass land destruction is only do it when you aren't effected and can win quickly after doing it

[@MekanikKommandoh88]

Sure. Unless people just want to sow chaos, that’s how it’s supposed to be done.

[@Wrokzor]

Sweaty nerds upset about any of these cards are really what has kept me from getting into commander yet. If you don't like an enchantment or an artifact, disenchant it! If you don't like your lands being destroyed, make them indestructible! If you don't like a certain player doing stuff, reduce their life total to 0! I don't get it!

[@Cyberium]

EDH today is VERY different from EDH 8 years ago. People know how to ramp now, with spells or rocks or mana-dorks, so there's no reason why MLD should still be a taboo. There's no reason why it's okay for someone to ramp 7+ mana on turn 3, while automatically immune to punishment for his overextension. It's hypocrisy at its best. If I ramp with rocks and MLD the field, it's as valid a strategy to secure victory as any others. And remember which colors are good at MLD? White and red, strip of their most prominent weapons. I'd almost call this a systematic oppression.

[@VexylObby]

Cyberium Because there is a big difference between Balance and Armageddon. One gets the results you are looking for, the other shuts the table down. The idea here is that much of the time, we want to be able to have everyone keep a balance and show their synergies. Unless of course, the whole group loves to play against Armageddon, then they are welcome to! The taboo is that it makes no sense from a balance perspective, even from the perspective of board game design. ALSO, red and white suck not because of the bans, but because they’ve always lacked the basic incremental building blocks and advantage that blue and green have. Dockside extortionist and Smothering Tithe are a good start.

[@manvsmanatee1793]

Ok, but thieves auction is great in an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck. You get the first choice and grab omnath, then you start taking lands. It is basically a really complicated land flicker

[@AarhgYouTube]

Plus, any elemental tokens you have on the battlefield don't get exiled. Thieves' Auction can be turned in your favor quite easily, so I find it much less offensive than some of the other chaos cards.

[@kainariylius392]

Why does everyone gotta hate on the Ld? I only play spikey when people get too much on the competitive side. Then I break out the lethal stuff. And, once you explain what kind of deck you're playing, if people don't like it you become the target and get nixed first by the pod.

[@jamierodgers7454]

instead of full on mass land destruction i feel like there should be a few cards that says each player sacs lands down to the lowest number of lands a player controls, to combat ramp fairly and edge up the player whos behind, i really liked the white saga that basically did this

[@smolclips5996]

There are cards that do that but people don't search for them due to everyone avoiding land destruction

[@ShinkuDragon]

>mass land destruction meanwhile, i'm over here hiding my everything-destruction death cloud windgrace

[@sirroberttablesiv9459]

Death Cloud is the tits

[@mrInSaNiTyDuDe]

For me personally, anything not banned is fair game. Though, where I get miffed is when the person playing a turn-three land destruction deck acts all holier-than-thou after joining games clearly set at casual levels with maybe an infinite combo or something and stomping out non-$5000 dollar decks. I know how to play, it's just insanely hard to do so when turn three all your mana is destroyed.

[@VexylObby]

Kenpatchi Ramusama This is where the contract comes into play. We all wish for a more balanced experience. Also, that “fair game” is your preference. And other people are also welcome to seek restrictions to breed creativity and novelty in deck building.

[@mrInSaNiTyDuDe]

@@VexylObby I don't have any distaste for decks and cards that break the contract, issues usually come when the person piloting the decks acts like their superior players. For example: my friend and I were playing a game tagged as casual in Xmage. Running our personal fun decks ( I was playing Lazav mill, my friend was running a group hug deck) A player joins in with a CEDH deck and after wrecking us, said "you guys suck and don't know how to play EDH" and refused to rematch when we offered to bust out our much more competitive decks. Saying things to the tune that we're not worth playing against since we aren't on his level. We were both fine with this up till he started making an ass of himself. Was even fun to watch the deck work. I understand that not everyone is as cool with these decks and cards and that's all well and good, You do you. Just don't be overly harsh to people that employ/like land destruction and infect. If anything, it allows you to take the gloves off as well. For those that do use more taboo methods: Don't be a toxic dill-weed and act like you're above everyone who was just having fun and maybe instead of going for the throat, throttle it back and let the others have a chance to respond. No one is winning money, or getting famous by winning turn 3 in EDH. Second, be ready to play arch-enemy and get flack/the other players taking the gloves off, it's only fair they do.

[@jushthehermit]

Platinum Angel with Lightning Greaves. Elvish Piper. Isochron Scepter imprinted with Silence. Entomb with Reanimate. Vampiric/Demonic Tutor. The Eldrazi Angel setup. Yep, I've played magic with some nasty little schemers in my day. Those are just a few on my personal banlist.

[@crovax1375]

I don't agree with the idea of soft bans on cards. The common theme among these cards is that they make the game go long. If game length is an issue for a playgroup, then that playgroup needs to come up with a time limit rule for games

[@VexylObby]

Fortunately, it’s up to each group what gets soft banned or not. Including your group. Find a group that prefers no soft bans. Hopefully this shows the inverse, that you cannot stop others from choosing their own experience too.

[@ericlorrain6147]

Personally I feel that land destruction can be a necessity. For lands like Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Nyxthos and Sanctum of the Sun(Azor's Gateway flip side) land destruction is helpful. I believe that singe target land destruction is be fine as long as you don't try to cut someone off from their colors.

[@Kainync]

Someone doesn't said a thing about Aura Shards... one thing is sure, with this card, players gets as salty as if Stasis is in play.

[@intoxicary]

I run Armageddon in my Kaalia of the Vast deck, because once I have her on the battlefield I'm casting all my threats for free anyway. I haven't had much backlash for playing it because it is a legitimate win condition for my deck, but in a game where you didn't have any way to strongly benefit from playing it I could see it being a frustrating move for the table.

[@VexylObby]

intoxicary That is also besides the point of what impact that has on the other 75% of the table. Maybe they are okay with that, but if they are not, that deserves to be criticized. Also, “legitimate win conditions” doesn’t paint a full picture of why one should do anything with their deck construction.

[@michaelturner2806]

Can I say I really appreciate reading off the oracle text for these cards? For a lot of the newer ones, it doesn't matter, but the older ones may change significantly, and it's pretty affirming to hear the 'singular they' substituted in for pre-Dominaria 'he or she'.

[@raphaeldean5801]

My Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck (not finished/purchased) has no way to avoid sacrificing Stasis, so... Not always, lol

[@ROMANTIKILLER2]

Hanna + Stasis + Despotic Scepter is my favourite lockdown, especially together with Kismet and Mana Web. ;-)

[@raphaeldean5801]

@@ROMANTIKILLER2 jeez, that's diabolical!! I hadn't heard of Despotic Scepter, but it seems like a must have for stax decks. I have many times found myself unable to win due to my own attached pieces getting the way. Like now I don't have to wait for a different win con, but rather destroy the restriction!!

[@lostmarble540]

I don't mind mass land destruction as long as you play it when you have a dominating board presence. At that point you're winning the game rather than slowing things down.

[@AarhgYouTube]

I have Thieves' Auction in my Wort, the Raidmother deck, for the sole, janky reason that it doesn't affect creatures tokens, which I generate a lot of. So everything except my tokens gets moved around and tapped, and I'm free to charge in with my army of goblins and saprolings.

[@synxcopt]

If you can do resource control or land destruction without messing with the other players' (the ones not using green) lands then I think is a fine and valid answer to players over-ramping. The real problem I've seen after many years playing the format is the people's playing stax and/or mass land destruction attitude, as they tend to be jerky about it and brag about making others miserable and the joy it brings to them and how they love being hated... Until everyone gangs uppon them and then they complain because they can't play the game anymore.

[@danielbretado7660]

I like your post. I have seen the very same. Players who troll but then complain when we fight back are the absolute worst. My Lavinia and Zegana decks were designed to police a player or two. I keep these to fight tryhards and pubstompers.

[@onicalcron3752]

So I use Armageddon, however, I also use worldslayer, but these are in my avacyn edh.

[@professornubnub9482]

Jade Nguyen the good avacyn?

[@onicalcron3752]

@@professornubnub9482 If you are implying angel of hope then yes

[@APlayOfHopesAndFears]

There are a lot of decks that profit from these unspoken rules. Landfall decks can be absolutely miserable in Commander and I have absolutely no qualms using MLD to counter them.

[@VexylObby]

APlayOfHopesAndFears There are alternatives to MLD that do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Balance is great, finding ways to prevent landfall triggers is great. But potentially turning off the entire table may sometimes disappoint the other 50% you didn’t mean to target.

[@GollyGoshSensation]

Not being "allowed" to play massand destruction is one of the big reasons why red and white are the weakest colours and green is the strongest in EDH. Mass land destruction is a counter to bullshit green ramp and not being allowed to play it means Green takes over games and non Green decks are playing catch-up and hoping the green deck peters out.

[@voluntarism335]

@Gino Victory there's nothing wrong with green. Land destruction makes for non games so do not be stupid.

[@TraucerDaUrbania]

When the green player is at 15 mana on turn 4 you tell me that I can't play Armageddon, I'm not stopping, If I'm playing catchup we're all playing catchup

[@orgazmo686971]

Some months ago a guy wanting to do land hate (Zozu?) played a Possibility Storm against my Druid deck...the first half hour turn I had he was amused by the chaos, but by around minute 40 of my following turn he was getting really short tempered..."just do you win? I don't know, I have to play it out!" I wish I played at a slower, more normal pace so those turns took an hour and 90 minutes respectively.

[@MrFForger]

Possibility Storm is my secret win con when I sit down with my Mishra deck as my opponents have no idea how it works.

[@jacobfrank2664]

Honestly I hate these unwritten rules of EDH. If casuals would play more interaction in their decks I guess they wouldn't hate these cards as much as well. And no I'm not a CEDH player, but I think about what I put into my deck

[@VexylObby]

Jacob Frank This is a common misconception. Some people have legitimate criticism about game design and balance. Some people do run interaction, and it isn’t MLD. Some people are “casuals” on purpose, for a more refined experience. Some people have played these cards to death and are bored of the results. Some people don’t want removal on a massive scale. Some people dig this stuff. Some people actually do think what they put into their decks and don’t run this stuff. The cool thing is, the unwritten rule to rule them all is that you communicate and find the group that prefers things like you do.

[@mrpandabites]

Mass land destruction making the game go much longer is a valid argument against it. That it "kinda rubs some people the wrong way" is not.

[@MekanikKommandoh88]

One of the greatest plays I’ve ever seen involved mass land destruction on Playing with Power. Mans used a Windgrace deck, cast Obliterate late game. Another player had used Pact of Negation and lost instantly on his turn. Windgrace player ramped back up on his next turn, the dominoes fell, and he won the game. I’ll concede that if you’re just using MLD to troll it’s not a great way to play, but it’s a valid strategy in a lot of decks and actually ends the game almost immediately.

[@shorewall]

The two arguments are the same. It rubs people the wrong way because it makes the game go longer, with people not being able to do anything.

[@Medicinalmagic911]

"your mom is a social contract". this always works.

[@christiang5502]

My rule is, don’t just use these cards in your deck just because you can, but if they fit how the deck works then go ahead. Example: I play kaalia with Armageddon, only because if you destroy all lands I still get big creatures for free with kaalia out. Or I play stasis with estrid, I’m not trying to drag out the game, ill usually win with esrid’s ult in two turns or less. So in the right deck I think you should be able to play these cards.

[@Kuronosa]

If I'm playing Barren Glory...I'm PLAYING Decree of Annihilation... On the other hand, my more favorite thing is stuff like Mana Breach, which is annoying, but not as evil.

[@bigmookie27]

I have 2 of these decks, a Boros Land Destruction deck with Archangel Avacyn and a Temur Chaos deck with Maelstrom Wanderer. I dont play them often or without checking with the group I am playing with. Side note, I think the main issue with the cards on this list, is that so often, people build it without a win-con. They play a stax, mass LD or chaos, and now what? The game takes forever. I actually tried to build win-cons into my decks, so I armageddon and win in the next turn or two.

[@EloquentTroll]

Do you draw a distinction between "Hard Staxx", where you literally can't do certain things (like Stasis), and "Soft Staxx", where you can do the thing but there's a cost (like mana barbs, or ishi ishi, akki crack shot)? I'm actually fine with "Soft Staxx", but I would rather see Armageddon than Winter Orb (and I mean Armageddon the real thing, not just the card).

[@CrypticTranscendence]

Here's a cool video idea: What archetypes don't have commander support? It could be tribal, for instance despite the amount of demons in MTG, they don't have a good commander to build around. Another is a theme or mechanic that doesn't have a commander to support it. For example there isn't a commander for an "exile" theme or a menace theme despite those two having a large amount of support

[@owenzheng8357]

Honestly I'm planning to build a Yarok deck based on a combo of Venser, Shaper Savant and Peregrine Drake. Infinite mana leads to me either exsanguinate for a trillion or I then repeatedly cast venser over again and bounces everything my opponents have. Win with lab, jace, or thassa's oracle via guardian project. ......... Sounds about right

[@qwertz.]

Let’s also not forget that Possibility Storm can function well in a stax deck when combined with with the new Drannith Magistrate, effectively preventing the opponents from casting spells at all. What a beautiful card.

[@AesirRev]

One of my favorite ways that I’ve discovered for mass land destruction that ONLY affects my opponents is, Nature’s Revolt + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Have Nature’s Revolt on the battlefield find a way to cast Elesh Norn without being countered, boom all opponents lands gone and they can’t even play any cause they just die. It’s a win con for sure similar to a Avacyn, Archanel of Hope + Armageddon, but this way they actually can’t recover.

[@aaronbravo325]

Oh thats just dirty. I like it

[@markcooper4876]

I remember watching an 8-player game at my shop. One of the players had a Hive Mind out and had cast a Thieve’s Auction. Essentially they had to draft every card on the table 8 times. Thankfully he said they only need to draft once with the last player in the turn order going first, but the draft still took almost 20 minutes. Chaos can be very, very annoying to play against.

[@chanalexchamc.7857]

Mitch: *Describes cards from the land destruction type builds* Also Mitch Right After: "Ok, now on to our final category."

[@mulldrifterz6469]

I totally don't agree with Back to Basics. I think that card should be played more, not less. Too many people are greedy af with their mana bases and should be punished. It's not the person playing the card that should have to stop, it's the other people that should add more basics to their Commander deck.

[@tecjohnson]

In your Ghalta deck you had a tactic where if somebody casts a boatd wipe you can turn their lands into creatures so they get wiprd too. Isnt this land destruction?

[@JB-sc3fr]

Land destruction is totally acceptable. As long as you have a way to advance fast there after. Green gets no free ramp pass

[@waynefeller8824]

I disagree. Do we expect a quick win after Bane of Progress, or a Damnation? If it saves you from being taken out, nothing wrong with playing it.

[@MoriRaineMatsuko]

A combo a friend of mine came up with I used once with my big Mana Jodah deck, which was Omniscience, Armageddon, and Enter the Infinite. Play Armageddon first, if there's no response to get rid of it, then play Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. Most players will forfeit after Enter the Infinite is played.

[@matthewmcarthur4782]

I only recently started to run Decree of Annihilation in my red artifacts deck for when I am generating a ton a mana with my rocks to lock the win by destroying all the lands. I have yet to draw it. I will let you know how it lands.

[@dennisyoung6122]

Thre is no social contract. If there was then mana ramp would be part of it.

[@CRIMS0N_KING]

So on Chaos: I have a Norin the Wary deck but I don't run Scrambleverse or Thieves Auction. I do play Warp World but will only play when I know I'll benefit the most from it (i.e tonnes of tokens from Genesis Chamber) and to this day I've never lost a game where I've cast Warp World and I'll almost always win on the same turn I cast it, whether that's Purphoros and a load of triggers or enough goblins with Ogre Battledriver.

[@AlexM-nl6nx]

I once built a token deck where the entire point was to resolve warp world as many times as possible, because each token potentially becoming an actual card. Oh and warp world was the only non permanent in the deck.... People hated it, but it was a ton of fun. (Once or twice)

[@millerlite9759]

So I had a 4 free for all commander game. I was using a wizard tribal with lots of chaos. I casted a warp world and had a simic player lose their whole board along with everyone else, self included. I got and omniscience from warp world while holding a decree of annihilation in hand. The simic player got 19 lands out of it. Then I decreed the field...

[@kennethcastella9107]

I'd advocate for more land destruction in casual EDH. Yeah it feels bad when Armageddon resolves but it's one of the few checks against the format's most dominant color. I run Armageddon in my mono white aggro deck because it gives the deck a lot of needed range to close out a game. The rules of commander really tilt the scales toward control decks and it seems like an artificial problem that those players go unchecked. You can hit a sol ring no problem but god help you if you strip mine a land to deny someone an early commander drop.

[@VexylObby]

Kenneth Castella It’s throwing the baby out with the bath water, however. There are many ways you can slow down the one ramping player without telling the table they can no longer try out their cool synergies.

[@Seigmoraig1]

The only problem I have here is with Chaos cards that shuffle permanents around. I don't want whatever guys I am playing against at my LGS to play with my expensive cards. I would concede when that it played instead of going through with it. I don't mind Possibility Storm at all, I just don't want random people handling my cards

[@waynefeller8824]

Lol! And this is why I have playgroups where I trust the other players.

[@Seigmoraig1]

Good for you, I don't. I play at my LGS

[@waynefeller8824]

@@Seigmoraig1 - I can respect that. When you are playing with strangers, there is no way of knowing if they can be trusted with something you uave spent your hard earned money on. I have a Merieke deck where I take control of everyone's permanents. And people get very upset when I am taking over their $50.00+ card(s). And rightly so. They don't know me from Adam. The solution i found, when playing at my LGS, was to keep extra decksleeves on hand, and a dry erase marker. That way, I can show on the board what I have taken control of, by making a fast proxy of the card I have just taken control of, without having to actually handle the card. They can then keep it off to the side, in case we need to reference it, and so it does not detract from the board state. Just a thought.

[@Seigmoraig1]

@@waynefeller8824 That's a good solution, now apply that to the cards mentioned in this video, it would take 20 minutes just to get the cards sorted !

[@waynefeller8824]

@@Seigmoraig1 - if it takes you 20 minutes, you need to work on how quickly you write! Lol! Sure, it does take a little extra time, but I don't like conceding at my LGS. If you do, that is fine and dandy.

[@jaggyg8122]

Good topic. My playgroup has an unspoken understanding against self-contained win con cards that say, "...you win the game," (e.g. Felidar Sovereign). While I haven't read up on those kind of cards online, I'm not a fan of that restriction in my group since usually there is at least one full turn where a card of that type is open to removal. Mass land destruction is another area strongly looked down upon. I'm a little more tolerant of mass land destruction when used sparingly. I feature Jokulhaups in my lands-matter Lord Windgrace edh deck. It's the only mass land destruction card in the deck, and it's purpose is to be a last ditch relief valve if I'm on the ropes. Once during a last game of the night I was getting beat down quickly and my life total was approaching zero. I drew a tutor, retrieved Jokulhaups and cast it. Since it didn't destroy Lord Windgrace I was able to recover quickly and win within about four or five short turns against mostly salty opponents who almost scooped when I cast it. I can see why it was frustrating for my opponents, but so is being ganged up on, in addition to so many other kinds of cards that can massively turn the tide in someone else's favor. To me, that's how board wipes work generally, and it's one thing that can keep things exciting in any game. To a point :-)

[@TheFirstTriplefife]

Quick question for anyone willing to answer, is anyone buying MTG cards online right now? Due to the pandemic I was buying my cards online, but with all the riots happening I don't think there is much of a guarantee of my packages getting to me when I order them. I'm just curious if this has stopped anyone else.

[@Josh-jb7yu]

I played a Jhoira chaos deck one of my first commander games ever when my playgroup started commander. It was meant to be chaos and I had no intention of winning just making a crazy game. I played Warp World for the first and last time. I underestimated how much that would suck.

[@corpsecrow1590]

Decree of Annihilation is one of my favorite red cards, along side with Obliteration. Sunder is what I play when I have Teferi’s Puzzle Box in play. I stopped playing Thieves’ Auction since people quit right after I cast it. When I meet people for the first time and ask for my power level, I tell them “Chaos and/or destruction”. It’s all fun until the game goes for longer than an hour, then I just get all troll-ley.

[@Jerry1991388]

I have Armageddon and Ravages of War in my Avacyn deck, basically a win con with her out later in the game because they lose everything and I lose nothing lmao

[@michaelrogerson6939]

I play "Decree of Annihilation" with my Jhoira of the Ghitu deck, but it's usually because I have some creature or something suspended that will win me the game. I run "Bearer of the Heavens" for the same reason.

[@kurtreznor]

If warp world determines the winner at random, you built your deck wrong. My WRG deck has a sub-theme of warp world (it was the inspiration for the deck, but I try not to use tutors in my decks to avoid playing the same cards every game). It is a heavy token deck, all permanents except warp world. Every time I cast warp world, I get MORE stuff than I started. And I might get anarchist or eternal witness to get the warp world back.