Comparing Steppe Lancers Before and After their Nerf

[@vytah]

"I think it'll still do just fine in chokepoints" So, the steppe lancer is the most effective at the exact opposite of a steppe.

[@superbibibobo]

Maybe they'll rename it the choke lancer

[@MortenErCrazy]

are these Cuman tears..?

[@Tudsamfa]

Saracens, the unifiers of arabia, who have 1 of the lowest winrates on it, send their regards

[@Tudsamfa]

​@Internet Entity I know how to use a market, why would you assume otherwise?

[@thomasbayer1843]

@@Tudsamfa Isn't it obvious? 🙄🤔😜

[@fbritorufino]

0:44 Pre-patch: huge power, most OP AoE unit in a long time Post-patch: not even respected by wild animals

[@karnazacss]

hahahahah

[@Thescott16]

Steppe Lancers pre-patch: _"Muster the Rohirrim!"_ Post patch: "... Less than half of what I'd hoped for."

[@josephprince3917]

Holy shit. This is incredible.

[@papermaniac]

they are still useful not broken

[@Thescott16]

@@papermaniac Which makes the quote even better (part of why I thought of it): In LotR RotK even with "less than half" they still routed the Orc army surrounding the city and held off the Haradrim Oliphants on open ground. Still useful, but not broken.

[@stormblessed7032]

Spirit of the Law: "More will come"

[@justincarrasco3680]

Shireposting feels

[@demoncard1180]

It's one steppe forward and two steppes back.

[@dontspikemydrink9382]

nobody will get too far like that

[@stefanandrejcik571]

@Joël indeed, still have memories of how good it once was

[@TraceofHatred]

Honestly some of these nerfs seem excessive. It feels like the only thing the Steppe Lancer had going for it was it's cost, and that's been increased. Given how common the Knight Rush strategy is their cost is more than made up for by how much more effective they are than the vast majority of other units. I can't see any realistic scenario you would ever pick Steppe Lancers over Knights or Hussars. A unit that is only useful in ideal conditions isn't useful and this change just kind of fuels the already Knight-centered meta. It's already a niche unit that is only available to 2 civilizations, pretty sure this unit is going to fade into obscurity because it's just objectively not cost efficient or stat efficient now.

[@greoge1381]

I wish we had seen more equal resources fights. You said yourself that massing the steppe lancers and outnumbering your opponent would give a huge advantage and the steppe lancers cost less, especially on gold. I'd be curious to see how they would have done pre and post patch with equal overall resources against knights and pre and post patch with equal gold cost.

[@Obelion_]

yeah same. need redo or riot

[@Cecil_Augus]

Yes, this would be more accurate when it came to really see if they are good or not.

[@plukerpluck]

Yeah. Having extra units scales almost exponentially with its effect. So equal resource fights are important.

[@urabraskthedeplorable725]

I agree with this. Triggers can probably be used to mostly simulate the damage output of pre-nerf lancers. The 30 gold cost compared to 75 from a knight is a really big gap, even in Castle when you presumably have a somewhat robust economy.

[@Zonalyre]

This! I was hoping for this and was a bit disappointed at it not being shown in the video.

[@MrMcstrong]

Hey Spirit Of The Law, have you considered making a vid on the effects of incorporating monk healing in battles? I am very interested in knowing if how useful monks are for no-micro-skill players such as myself. As a noob i also like trying to have a pretty mixed army in this way. The value of exchanges may be harder to measure the more units take part in a battle.

[@TheLive100]

In AoE3 this makes sense. In AoE2 it feels like the paladin is all you need. lol

[@Longknife]

Mound-Maker Even if the Paladin is enough, it's an economy boost. That Paladin has a cost, and saving the Paladin from death by healing him means you're not bleeding gold making new ones. You want your opponent's economy and resources bleeding more than yours, so monks can potentially do this by conserving on your gold for new units.

[@bartoszmichalik7149]

@@Longknife Also it could snow-ball in a battle at noone's ground, where reinforces do not show up. Interesting topic overall.

[@daltonphillips1547]

I have always wondered this

[@icecoldchilipreppers]

You should try to keep unit types to a minimum to save hold on research cost. Keeping 3 monks at home after you collect relics with them, and using them to heal up expensive mointed units after raids/battles is good. Not worth sending them out in the field to heal trash units though, and unless you are a the point you can micro monks to get conversions they will only be the ones who die first wasting your gold yet again. This game is all about whoever is wiser with their gold in 1v1

[@basteagui]

wow you remade the intro with the new graphics that's fucking epic. way to go above and beyond

[@jeltje50]

Holy shit that's so sick.

[@uniquehedghog]

ye but he should fix the music, theres a really obvious cut in the theme

[@Dr_Weirdoo]

Karambitcoin going down Seems legit

[@DanyF02]

Seems a bit weird that a mounted mobile units is meant to stand ground in a choke point 300 style.

[@Jasonwolf1495]

Yeah it'd be nice if there was some sort of charging option for them. Make a shield wall infantry unite instead for being a choke point.

[@mathewperryfan]

@@Jasonwolf1495 you predicted coustilliers, man

[@Zeno_One]

They have really overdone it with the nerving

[@tobiasjakobi4487]

Hey, I love the DE graphics in the new intro but the song sounds so broken up - can you, erm, ... un-nerf it?

[@JonatasAdoM]

I like it. What's bugging me off is the ending though, seems like someone's's trying to stop the disc by force.

[@AmmarFarisA]

Nerf it into MIDI

[@noodleknight7924]

please don't. I love the videos but don't want to waste half minute every time watching the same intro for the hundreth time

[@thekween9037]

Yeah the song was great before it was one of the best things about the channel. This new one doesn't work.

[@Zonalyre]

I think there's and editing issue in the part leading to the vil walking towards the cobra car. Like the song doesn't quite fit and it feels like there's an awkward cut.

[@Casteformn]

Imagine having a lance and extra range, but losing to knights. - This comment was made by the Kamayuk gang

[@arynasabalenka3173]

Realistically all horse mounted melee units should have a lance and a sword. The Lance is used when charging, then when in the fight they switch to sword. Even the paladin should fight this way

[@quakethedoombringer]

@@arynasabalenka3173 i feel like the Coustillier kinda have the concept that you talk about (use their long pole like weapon to ram enemies, dealing high damage) then deal consistently lower damage for the remainder period of time. They don't switch weapons though for various reasons

[@karlspel]

as someone who really liked playing with steppe lancers, i think a nerf was justified since the first or second time i played with them... but i think they did it a bit too hard, they hardly trade well with anything now :/

[@princeimrahil6557]

He protecc He attacc But most importantly **THE INTRO IS BACC**

[@fruitenantcolonel9207]

0:24 WOW, new intro visuals YAY! 0:29 My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

[@najeeb6834]

I've noticed that units are always attacked by animals in these videos

[@physixger]

You mean, realistically it should be the other way around?

[@darq7000]

That is hidden propaganda of SotL that animals are evil. SotL was bullied by wolfs in his childhood xD

[@JonatasAdoM]

gaia's fighting back

[@IllyrianTiger99]

@@darq7000 Wolves* :D

[@darq7000]

@@IllyrianTiger99 you mean "Wölfe" xD

[@Ugapiku]

WOW intro remastered!

[@NolDragon]

Look how they massacred my boy.

[@StraightEdgeNexus]

The attack rate dropped way too low, that's below tarkans

[@RR18475]

You know your life is good when you can watch these specific type of videos about games in your spare time.

[@Kitties_are_pretty]

I'd imagine a lot of people watching this video have trash lives.

[@johnapple6646]

What the fuck

[@mambojambo4870]

10 minutes before this guide dropped i was checking for a new upload from you - perfect timing as always!

[@JonatasAdoM]

Everybody's before patch "can't wait for the new intro" After patch: "Roll it back!"

[@PablitoAndCo]

So sad the karambitcoin value is dropping that much :'(...

[@darkj3di666]

Noo, they nerfed the intro too :(

[@mrnobody6354]

was just about to say that

[@ivanspinelli7768]

I can't wait for the vid where he just goes all out and just lets an entire wolf army attack the units as they stand there for the stat comparison. And then it turns into a video comparing the stats of scenario-specific wild animals.

[@0091Nathan]

Hey Spirit just wanted to say your videos are great and they keep getting better and better. A couple of years ago sometimes you would ask the wrong questions when it came to competitive play but these days you are almost always on the money. You are always improving! Love it

[@ArnoVdVelde]

ooh, why do both nerfs? Either increase the cost or make them worse, but both seems harsh.

[@tomasgonzalez970]

There is the intro, but we DEMAND THE LONG INTRO!!!!! Pd: love you :D

[@sarabihyena]

All they had to do was prevent units from being able to attack while they were int he same space as another unit. The main problem has always been that patrol packing exploit.

[@Vladd0r]

This has been my main complaint about the unit from the start. Both Lancers and Knights are used for the exact same Job. Why would you ever use one over the other if the other is currently better? Lancers have no niche. I'd give em bonus dmg against infantry to make em more effective against Halbs than Knights. Edit: Aight fine. I guess they're better against buildings

[@stardustreverie9737]

Yeah, steppe lancers are such a weird unit. I mean, it feels like it does well against pretty much every unit in the game, you just need the numbers. Hell, it can kill pikemen even before they can reach them sometimes or if you micro them.

[@thekween9037]

@@stardustreverie9737 I think that's what makes them great tbh though, they should have been a micro-focused unit to begin with, much like the mangudai. I hated them before nerf because OP and I'm a bit of a micro nerd so them being op is lame.

[@TovKafur]

Exactly my thoughts. SL are doomed to be either better knights or worse knights, but they will compete with them for a place in army.

[@ColonelRosa]

Reduce damage on regular SL by 1, give both version + 3 on spearmen and give atk speed back. They’ll do a nice raiding units vs foot troops but will be vulnerable to cavalry and armored unit (looking at you Teutonic chuck Norris)

[@Vladd0r]

@@ColonelRosa I would rather have em be weak against Archers. Just as intended

[@pierre-mariecaulliez6285]

Steppe Lancer : "tight patrol formation ! They'll never get us !" Me : "fetch the onager.."

[@shafoz]

I thought about that shortly after DE was released. But then I realised they are just too fast to be countered by siege units (even after speed nerf), it's difficult to hit them and it's really easy for them to catch your onagers, and the +1 range only make it worse. Even TheViper had a lot of difficulties trying to counter them with onagers and bombard cannons. Of course in a choke point I guess it'll work but in open field just no.

[@MrFunguspower]

Uh, about the new intro: Thanks, I hate it. Dude your little jingle is so good, please don't cut it like that.

[@Progeusz]

At first your unit choice for the comparison seemed weird since it's obvious high armor high attack beats low armor low attack but I see your point - you wanted to show that Steppe Lancers finally lose to units they weren't supposed to beat. This wasn't the case before the nerf. Now they finally act as intended or close to that. They're still good in their role.

[@karonteazt3286]

No they are not, they supossed to have any kind of efecctiveness-cost relstion, and they lose a lot of resources now, they were good but not that good that everyone was crying about....

[@KaiserTom]

No, they are actually pretty useless now because the civs that got them got nerfed as well. There were way too many nerfs made on the same civ/unit.

[@Eon2641]

Found the Cumans player

[@stardustreverie9737]

What's their role exactly? because to me it seems like they're a snowballing unit which can do good against pretty much everything if they have the numbers.

[@Gunsbeerfreedom87]

What role is that? It seems like you'd be better off just picking knights instead in every instance, except maybe against buildings but why would you pick cavalry for that?

[@barrytschirpig9328]

I am so glad to see the intro is back, it looks so lush.

[@moo5e471]

i love people that say "nice vid" 1 minute after its posted when its a 6 minute video

[@moo5e471]

Çağrı Benli you’re very right 😹

[@Fr33zerg]

Spirit of the Law, you magnificent bastard, you remade the intro into hd!

[@AcZe1188]

holy, I just realized he recreated his old opening with Age of Empires 2 Definitive edition :0

[@ageofnumbersyt8557]

Great video! I feel like the steppe lancer won`t be a valuable option anymore. It would be good to know what blacksmith upgrades were used in the tests, since the blacksmith upgrades can change a unit immensely. But I understand that testing every combination would be a huge expenditure.

[@Progeusz]

castle age and imp age techs respectively, nothing special Steppe Lancers will still be a good option, they just won't be universally best in every possible scenario.

[@WillyMacShow]

INTRO IS BACK!!! GOD SPEED!!!

[@c182SkylaneRG]

Love the "We're the Millers" reference at 1:16. :D

[@Wozunubi]

Love that you revisited the intro, and used the DE textures, please keep the intro.

[@plukerpluck]

The short intro is way less fun :( But most of all what bugs me is that the little breakdown riff is STILL out of sync! It comes in a little early and I can't not hear it every single time.

[@guest273]

Updated HD intro - a man of culture.

[@challengeraoe1144]

I just noticed you remade your intro in HD - you're a God

[@bigbroarivus]

6:28 this is why you should never enter collapsing building

[@Udwin]

"Should we nerf the Steppe Lancers by making them weaker or by increasing their cost?" "Yes" (fun fact: I never played with the new factions ... than one day I thought "well, I guess I finally try with the Kumans" ... what I didn't know: That was exactly the day of the nerf. I was wondering, why everyone tells that steppe lancers are op, while I have been gotten my ass kicked when using them. 1 Hour later Spririt of the Law uploaded the video, how the new factions, especially kumans, have been nerfed :D)

[@Heroesflorian]

Meanwhile in a Stronghold nearby: Balancing issues with unit stacking? That's so 2001! :D

[@HKRazieL]

"they now lose to everything pretty much like before but worse... they still good tho!" awesome logic!

[@Zonalyre]

The video never compared same resources spent. Did you expect them to win with the same numbers even while costing way less? The exception here is halberdiers, but that's fine since they're supposed to be a counter to cavalry.

[@rupen42]

Kudos to you for saying the date of the update. Makes it much easier for people in the future and a lot of videos about topical subjects (in all areas, not just gaming) don't do this.

[@jackschmidt141]

I actually love you. You are mathy and i love it. I do kinda wish you went into more maths with each unit. And i am waiting for that general look at Palladians

[@UM96lol]

Wait, the intro was recorded in DE now? SWEET!

[@saxy1player]

I liked the KaramBitcoin graph in the intro :D

[@PedroBlanco3257]

He originally made it for this video I think. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHXEZqeBqshnkNU

[@iGleeson]

SO HAPPY TO SEE EVEN A SHORT VERSION OF THE INTRO!

[@samueljett7807]

I hope we continue to joke about this unit 10 years from now

[@cristianherrera6993]

THE INTRO IS BAAAACK

[@ZetruH]

Note that Tatars (who *were* balanced imo) have no champion, paladin, arbalester, halberdier, nor siege onagers, they don't even have all the cavalry blacksmith upgrades, so their offensive power got heavily nerfed. Tatars lost their only strong unit, and they got nerfed because people hate playing against Cumans. And as a final nail in the coffin, their unique unit got nerfed too. I understand the collision box fix but everything else is nonsense.

[@Apocalypse9696]

Why did you shorten the intro? Previous intro length was perfect.

[@Dr_Weirdoo]

I love how the Definitive edition intro Is the same but the KaramBitcoin Is going down

[@migueeeelet]

I'd like to see a combination of knights and lancers vs full knight army. Maybe that's the secret recipe?

[@Heroesflorian]

It will, however, not necessarily transfer well to imperial, if you need to upgrade bother of them.

[@migueeeelet]

@@Heroesflorian True. Cavalier and Paladin upgrades are expensive as all hell. What about Champions/Halbs?

[@AimiFoon]

The intro is back. TY

[@B0zZz3]

The intro is back!!! YES!

[@god-kx7di]

I'm loving all the fast uploads it gets very boring in heaven.

[@tombraiderstrums09]

This was exactly the video I was hoping you’d have the foresight to make! Thanks man. I played a quick match against hard AI last night (Cumans vs Burmese) and the Lancer-Kipchak combo is still deadly af. I played a moderately successful scout rush into knights + lancers and they IMMEDIATELY demolished his trash (skirms + pikes) and I had the advantage for the rest of the game. And that was in spite of a sluggish economy on my part - lancers cover a multitude of sins 😂

[@yhlee1205]

Man with spear deal a lot of dmg to cavalry. Man with spear on horse does less.

They lost their balance on horse , I think

[@tinyman1144]

Hard to get that upward angle when you are on a level height wise with the enemy.

[@MMarcuzzo]

You upgraded the intro

[@Max-we3gc]

Thanks for a great comparison! In fact I think they are still much better for raiding than any other melee unit. Rushing the enables you to pile up more than e.g. knights, as you have less resource costs. And, moreover, the 1 range makes them pick of vils easier I test them also alot, I am not a pro player like you, but in my games they are still worth going as a raiding unit, and they help you much more than knight vs archers, especially when your enemy corners his archers. Thanks thanks for the new intro!

[@keny4281]

hated this nerf, way too excessive, it was one of most fun units, and now it's completely pointless to make them... cmon Microsoft...

[@ethanpappas2502]

It definetly needed a nerf, but nowere near what it got

[@devangnivatkar2649]

Both Hussars and Lancers had/have a 'collision size' of 0.250 units. However, this patch sets the 'collision size multiplier' for Lancers to 1 from 0.5 which used to be the same as Hussars. This means while stacking, Hussars can wiggle themselves down to effectively 0.125 units each but the 'collision size' for Lancers is enforced strictly and they remain 0.250 units thick while stacking.

[@Miniature_Mike]

2 years later and they have never recovered...

[@_Amit_Sunil]

Don't even play anymore but never miss a video !

[@Table53]

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL LANCER!

[@Sirmenonottwo]

I like how your recreated the intro in DE, its very good. Did yo do the lightsabers in post or is that mod out already?

[@jeffsirloin2558]

literally never seen someone make a step lancer, they might need a buff

[@ekim613]

Maybe the Steppe Lancers could have a unique attack stance like "tight formation" which halves their collision box and their movement speed (to compensate), so they can group effectively without having to patrol back and forth.

[@TheArklyte]

KZbin: here's some 100500 drama videos about latest Star Wars movie. SoL: drops at least something usefull for humanity and its survival.

[@8shanrahan1]

Kudos to the dev team, they listened to their player base and gave an appropriate nerf.

[@SirAroace]

Looks like AoE2 devs strategy is to release high, get feedback, then adjust things based on said feedback

[@winnieelegante6901]

Same as every game since a while ago

[@soupalex]

yeah, as Redox notes, this has been standard practice in games studios making periodic updates for a long time-it is arguably a case of "power creep": new teams/units/abilities/cards/whatever are made beefier than the existing selection to encourage players to use them; this can lead to the existing selection getting buffed too, or the new things getting nerfed, or (in some cases… more usually with card games, I think?) just left as they are, and people just stop using the old, now-underpowered units/teams/etc.

[@challengeraoe1144]

Great pre-empting the video by testing before-and-after the nerf This is why you're an AoE legend

[@bartekenterprice5086]

I love that old new intro :D

[@eccentrichorse11]

1:14 Poor Hussar(literally)

[@edwardblom2661]

SpiritOfTheLaw: Uses Steppe Lancer in choke Me: Rolls out the Siege Onager

[@Optim121]

Wish they just upped the gold cost and cut attack by 1, they might be good in tight spots but so are onagers. I really dont know when to use lancers now.

[@kushtha2531]

They are still great for raiding because they pick up so many more vills due to their range. They are also better against archers than knights because archers cant hide in choke points as well. They are still a decent unit now.

[@kushtha2531]

@Jiu-Jitsu Uncle They are cheaper than knights but better raiders and better against archers.

[@Irayune]

@@kushtha2531 You could also train hussars who are way cheaper than Steppe Lancers. Attack, range* and gold cost raised, anyone could have seen that was overkill lol.

[@YberDC]

Kinda wish there had been a vs archers comparison, as they were supposed to counter the steppe lancer to begin with. Still great video as usual.

[@darkranger116]

Oh hey i like the new intro! Or i should say, its well cut into a shorter version :)

[@09kaustubh]

I think an obvious question here would be a comparison with equal resources. What would that be like? In that scenario, which unit will win? The tanky knight or the (still) cheaper Lancer?

[@farhanaafroj2793]

Hey spirit will you do the new civ overviews?And please do a video on the top 5 trash unit civs.

[@Wtf_is_this_handle_thing_YT]

He's confirmed he will do them, but he wanted to wait until this patch had released.

[@farhanaafroj2793]

Thanks to him and you for telling this

[@Antoloni]

Ahh that intro never gets old

[@vvvppp6021]

Nice Remake of the intro dude!!

[@rambolambo3441]

We need the longer intro back! Now the cut is so obvious.

[@MerMes16]

The definitive intro doesn't exis......

[@zekiumutdemiral7411]

Hey spirit can you compare kipchak's as well ? I think they've become pretty useless now both in terms of raw power and cost-effectiveness

[@bartoszmichalik7149]

But we need another type of comparision... First time im kinda dissapointed in You, Spirit. What about Lancers vs Knights, but both groups cost in total the same? So there is actually more Lancers?

[@bobincognito]

Wasnt this just a comparasion for cav.?

[@bartoszmichalik7149]

@@bobincognito what??? What i ask for is cost equal comparison. I dont need 20v20, i need equally resources worth comparison.

[@yuniesumeragi]

How do you keep the seemingly consistent "Hey guys, Spirit of the Law here"? Do you copy and paste the recording?

[@ambrose1724]

For the love halbs and math, Spirit, your intro music; - ; If you want to shorten it, rerecord it or give it someone who'll cut it more seamlessly.

[@robertomartinelli8909]

dont cut the intro :(

[@frankseward7017]

I think he's still getting the rest of the original intro back. It takes time.

[@rzero21]

the intro is baaaaack!!!!

[@laradaniel01]

Hey spirit of the law, im deployed in the middle east and wanna get into AoE but i only have a macbook here. What do you recommend apart from getting a new laptop

[@dontspikemydrink9382]

quit the army

[@Fr33zerg]

Have you tried testing a mix of steppe and knights vs knights? In strategy games, like sc or aoe , you use close-but-ranged units to stand in the second/third row, where melees lose their engagement potential. Basically the rule is: Melee then Close Ranged then Ranged then Artillery. Steppes may step (heh) there and be effective while not being hit.

[@DeathlySmiles]

Will you be posting anymore matches/doing ranked again at anytime?

[@maelstrumyes3595]

Finally the Intro

[@Trastoto17]

According to a test i've done on my own, having 2 more steppe lancer on a situation where u have 6 paladins and 10 elite steppe lancers u win 12 enemy paladins (cumans vs spanish). So the point of using steppe lancers is with a bit of tanks in front, such as paladins or something, and then, masive them. Still, the cost efficience is "fair" when it comes to this test and u may be surprised of the big effects it can do a steppe lancer in situations, specially the fast creation of cumans, the extra hp of mongols or the hill+tankiness advantadge of Tatars. In any case, steppe lancers without abusing of this patrol (wth???) is a really good unit if used with mind, and not just on chokes.