Conditions Vs. Power - Guild Wars 2 DEBATE and How to Interpret Data

[@Dahkeus3]

I actually find it pretty interesting how rare hybrid builds are. So much of the game is designed around taking an all-in power or condi approach to builds that it's really hard to pull off a successful hybrid build.

[@duncanrobertson6472]

They tend to depend on celestial and lots of might, as that's the only combination that really unlocks the playstyle. It gives the total stats necessary to make up for a split focus. When hybrids have been good though, they've been really good. DD ele, shoutbow, and cele rifle engi were meta defining back in the day, but then the amulet was removed for a year and came back with 700 less stats. What's kind of crazy is Kala renegade is pretty busted right now, even with the nerfed stats on celestial. Just imagine it with 700 more.

[@urnikesonmyfeet]

ever heard of min-maxing? wild concept.

[@FlameableMusic]

@@duncanrobertson6472 Is Kala renegade still busted? And what kind of build is it, would love a link to it if you happen to know of one!

[@duncanrobertson6472]

@@FlameableMusic Kalla got nerfed and the celestial amulet got removed from pvp, so nobody is playing it anymore. It's probably still good, but most players have switched to shiro renegade, which is more mobile and aggressive. Godsofpvp.net has the Kalla build and Metabattle.com has the Shiro build.

[@creativedesignation7880]

@@urnikesonmyfeet The fact that there is a term for min-maxing might clue you in to the fact that it is not the only playstyle in existence.

[@MrZarran]

very good video and adviced. on my side, I played power, hybrid, and condition builds. my main is a celestial ranger/soubeast that I play in wvw, op, and raids (I don't pvp much except in GW1), love this build for the past 8 years. I also play condi necro, hybrid weaver/tempest, hybrid firebrand/core guardian, glass canon power deadeye (love this build also), and power revenant. you are right though by playing different builds, players can learn a lot and when used against other players can fight better and smarter. I play for fun, when levelling a toon, I experiment which builds are fun to play that when I reach max lev, I know what to do. I dont go with the power or condi debate goin on for the past few years, don't care if its easy, as long as the build I'm playing is fun, that is all that matters. thanks fo the video, good advice here.

[@xnay3600]

ok but how do i survive a holo nade barage from stealth in melee when it does 14k of my hp

[@veselt6709]

Just dodge xd

[@Lilybun]

@@veselt6709 what if i got 350ms ping because im from australia

[@mamuka753]

@@veselt6709 u cant dodge something what u cant see xD

[@mamuka753]

block or just run stealth is not eternal its only 3 sec

[@Vivi_Strike]

@@Lilybun Just move xd

[@FailMorePlz]

It’s not a “get good” issue though, with the way burst condition builds are now, your team comp either consists of aoe condi clear and you win, or if it doesn’t, you lose. Rock paper scissors is a horrible way to balance.

[@duncanrobertson6472]

It's not rock paper scissors, it's support vs no support. In most team games, a team is expected to have a support player. The difference in GW2 is that builds are more diverse, and Anet made the decision to allow that rather than lock people into defined roles. Lacking a support player in GW2 is a disadvantage, but you can get away with it. Also, everyone has the ability to swap to a different class or build. Healbreaker is very easy to pick up, and if you do, you'll never have to play a game without support if you don't want to.

[@FailMorePlz]

@@duncanrobertson6472 you're reiterating my point without realizing it. " it's support vs no support."- absolutely, so you have a with aoe condi clear and you win, and if you don't, you lose. But before the burst condi meta, this wasn't 100% the case.

[@duncanrobertson6472]

@@FailMorePlz I don't know how to respond if you're not gunna read beyond the first sentence lmao

[@FailMorePlz]

@@duncanrobertson6472 "Lacking a support player in GW2 is a disadvantage, but you can get away with it" You really can't with the burst condi meta, you won't be able to hold cap.

[@duncanrobertson6472]

@@FailMorePlz I had at least one game today where I did. We had a roaming comp with a strong thief+power rev duo, and me on holo. We killed their healbreaker early, and snowballed kills for the rest of the game. I'd also question the idea this is a "burst condi meta" when none of the top 4 builds are condi. Holo, Dash d/p, Healbreaker, and renegade are all power. Kalla renegade is often played cele, but at that point its condis are neither bursty, nor the majority of its damage. Beyond that, let me reiterate that you can play a support yourself or play with one if you want them on your team.

[@dante19890]

The main problem with condis was the overtuned burst of mirages and condi theif. Condis should be dmg over a longer time period. Core nec is a good example of a condi class done right, the dmg starts off slow but ramps up the longer the fight continues. The problem with condies starts when the application is too heavy too fast.

[@akhsdenlew1861]

isxuei...Ta condi opws o ranger kai o necro einai polu comple.. Alla polla alla einai oti nane. To provlima me ta condi einai oti einai unbalanced metaksi tous. Px o ranger gia emena einai to xeirotero condi class epeidh vasizete kurios sto bleed, to opio einai to xeirotero condi. Enw px confusion, torment kai burn einai polu pio dunata.

[@gavelkynde4837]

yeah i remember the bad old days; perfectly nice-seeming players would turn very, very nasty if you said you were running condi necro; it was zerker-only 3 second runs through CoF - and that was it - that was the game

[@blitzandflank]

necro historically has been broken. people have been waiting for it to be nerfed to equal terms with everyone else since launch and it still hasnt happened. "Necromancer is a flexible and durable profession. It’s noticed currently in need of any major changes, but alongside general improvements to the performance of other condition-damage specializations, we’re improving the necromancer’s access to condition damage in Curses with improved condition application" anets latest patch for necro... ITS TOTAL BULLSHIT! NOBODY CAN FUCKING HANDLE THE CONDI BUT THEY WANNA JUST MAKE IT MORE CONDI ACCESSIBLE! its a bullshit fucking gameplay in competitive now. spvp and wvw is just a condi and range condi fuck fest and raids are mostly condi exclusive

[@Miners666]

I remember if you played Necro at all people would be pretty toxic, often if you played literally anything other than zerker Warrior in dungeons you were accused of griefing the team and at risk of being kicked.

[@maibenzi]

Thanks for the subtitles, it helped me a lot since I'm not a native English speaker.

[@dragonspit77]

My problem isn't about getting good, I've played GW2 long enough to know where I stand in terms of skill. My problem is the ratio of condi cleanse to condi application and that its very skewed in the direction of condi application. Even if you run 6+ condi cleanses and use them at the best moments possible you will still eventually lose because condi application is just so common. There are so many weapons that have condi application on there auto attack, and yet I can only really think of one weapon that has condi cleanse on auto attack and that's only after taking two different grand master traits.

[@shplak508]

7:52 what is that music? Sounds vaguely familiar...

[@PwadigytheOddity]

Conditions are obnoxious in PvP scenarios. Theoretically, they add a mind game involving lots of strategy with condition cleanses. In reality, they detract from combat. Like you said, condis remove the player from the actual fight and force them to stare at the wretchedly designed UI. Most people play this game for the interactive combat. Most condi builds have bursts that will tick you almost as hard as a power build would in 1 second. But they also have constant condition re-applications that deal small chunks of damage that are still in total larger than power damage. You're stuck either constantly clearing trash conditions, or holding them until their burst. In the mean time, they are outright out-dpsing you. This is the case with ranger in WvW, which can constantly just reapply bleeds and poisons. They can out-survive power from any range, even if you're constantly clearing conditions, because they can just stack more codis faster than you can clear them. Then there are builds that multi-condi. Meaning you can literally only clear so many of their conditions, and your condi clears might not hit the most lethal conditions they are dealing. This is especially problematic with necro, which will also deal a fuck ton of non-damaging condis too. Even *if* condis were balanced, they aren't *fun*. Either you run a trait-line that cheeses conditions off you (which only a few classes have), or inevitably you will succumb to all condi-heavy builds, because no matter how you cleanse, they can always apply more condis than you have cleanses. So condi has the same problem as gank strats. Either they work, or they don't against your build, and there's very little actual interaction. Not to mention all condi builds are also dealing *some* power damage too. And many condi builds have at least 1-2 skills that can deal a large chunk of power damage, even if spec'd into just a tiny bit of power. So even assuming you're perfect on your attack timings, and perfect on your cleanse timings, condi builds will still chip you with power damage. Imho in PvP, they should just butcher condition damage, because many of us don't play Gw2 to stare at a UI. I get there's an argument to be made for why condis are strategic, but in reality, all condi players know their builds are unfun to play against, and from experience, more unfun to use. I say this as someone who *has* done really well with condis. Of course I cheesed with condi mirage when it was unbeatably overpowered. I'd go up to a guy and then mash my condi skills, and deal like 2k ticks of damage from 3 different condis in 2 seconds. Meanwhile, infinite horizon is re-stacking a single condi everytime they clear the multi-condis. Then when they die, I joke "damn, they should have been better with those condi cleanses like all the condi dweebs say." God, it felt so cathartic playing condi mirage when it was busted and realizing that I wasn't crazy and it was, indeed easy as shit to play. I actually felt bad while playing it. It was equally cathartic playing scourge, and realizing that I wasn't crazy, you do, in fact, just mash all your skills off cooldown and everyone slowly dies. I know there's a lot of nuance to this discussion in theory. In practice, there is one-single axiom. An oppressive condi spec is so much more toxic to the game than an overtuned power spec. It ends up not adding an extra dimension to the game so much as it does tedium. Even assuming that power and condi are equal, by definition, losing a condi fight is going to be so much more tedious than losing a power fight. And the same with winning one. Not to mention in pvp, condi builds are balanced around 1 stat. A successful condi build doesn't even spec into any other stat besides condi. Which got so bad ANet had to remove almost every Amulet that had condi Damage and entirely defensive stats. It was essentially ANet admitting condi can get their damage and additional tankiness too. In conquest, you also have to consider how much more reward you get for winning condi vs power. Because condis will always be tankier due to having to invest in only 1 stat, they can survive losing fights for a very long time, and allow a captured point to keep ticking. They can also end winning fights almost as fast by getting lucky on their condi bursts. Meanwhile, power has to move around, and make sure their high power damage stats land exactly when needed. With condi, damage is damage. Finishing potential doesn't have to be considered as much. If you get your burst off and they have no cleanses, you ended a fight that is still going to go on for 30 seconds longer. With Power, you get one window to hit the finishing blow, unless you're ganking.

[@Sammybree]

I personally don't think there's any question condi is stronger. First off, power got a dedicated balance overload where condi was hardly touched. I would also argue condi was more powerful before that said balance. Secondly, the classic condi tank. Bill can deal damage and survive where as Bobby needs to be zerky enough to carve through the tankiness and have enough cleanses/survivability to tango with Bill. And lastly, like I just said you don't beat condi unless you have a shit ton of cleanses. And even then you cleanse the condis and they just come back in a few seconds. Also torment was the worst thing ever added into Gw2.

[@bernardo879]

anet favors condi builds, because they dont want to lose the garbage tier players

[@The_Quaalude]

It would be interesting if a lot of damage abilities scaled well with both power and condition damage

[@KamiKaXi]

i like how you explain everything how you presented it i really wants to see more

[@mhedbary]

Very good analysis! Keep doing these they're awesome.

[@sophtspoken9331]

There are glaring issues you don't address which are 1 the core design of GW2 was that power builds would be the burst/spike builds and condi builds were supposed to be the more consistent DOT type builds but because of power creep and build knowledge getting better there are condi builds out there that can spike you in few seconds which is a straight up failure to the core design of the game. The 2nd issue and I would say is the crux of the issue in general is that condis by pass all armor/toughness which means the only stat that can make you "Tankier" aganist condis is vit so you can run mara or valk gear to try and maintain some semblance of dmg but trailblazergear has vit too so essentially youre just equalling the playing field as far as Vit goes the issue is trailblazer then has toughness on it which is a secondary stat layer thats making them tankier against power builds that power builds simply dont have against condis which people would counter with condi celanse which brings me to the 3rd issue. There is a finite number of cleanses you can pick up before your power build stops functioning like a power build is supposed to according the core design and in general the cool down of cleansing skills is far greater than that of condi appliers not to mention cleanses can be and are often eaten up by non damaging condis like chill and weakness ect so all a condi build has to do is run around in circles as you blow cleanses while they are already at a stat advantage because of trailblazer until you run out of popper cleansing ability and if that wasn't egregious enough there are traits and utilities that make you immune to power dmg but not condi dmg or condi application which both builds have access to but is infinitely more powerful for condi builds over power builds and if you really really want to push it there is far more access to protection than there is resistance and protection generally has a longer duration than resistance.

[@korpse3893]

Man, I hate thieves. Sneak up behind you stealthed, so you don't know it's coming. Hit you once, and you're dead. Doesn't seem to matter too much if they're power, or condi. I can maybe survive the power burst, if on the right character. Doesn't seem to be a quick enough, massive enough condi cleanse in the world. They def feel op to me atm. I've had condi revs stack a crapload in seconds on me

[@akhsdenlew1861]

Biggest problem with thiefs is that they are a low risk, high reward class. Insane damage, best condi cleanse in the game ( for a non support Solo-dmg class), and the best survivability in game. I found it insanly funny that in wvw with my thief, no matter how hard i fuck up, i will still stay alive. With my infinite stealth and infinite dodges and my infinite teleports xD Thief is very toxic class, especially D/P DD

[@ballerjabs]

@@akhsdenlew1861 For me, I don't find stealth much of a trouble since I usually use traps on them and reveal utility skill. What I really hate most about thief is their multiple abilities to shadowstep. When you figured a counter and had them cornered, they can avoid punishments by shadowstepping so they can reset fight or just leave.

[@dopractitioner]

how much condi duration is optimum or favorable in wvw? im using full celestial in my weaver wo traits, runes and sigils it is about 45 percent, is it good or should i have to increase 60s 80s whatever? Using burning sigils meaningfull ie. or is just waste in wvw?

[@Mrjackcool2]

the gameplay is so good that it's distracting, I can actually appreciate the subtitles

[@larix534]

I think the original issue that most ppl have with condition vs power is the general playstyle. Condition playstyle like trailblazer does not require you to worry as much about things like pressure counter pressure etc. It's a much more passive way of playing then a full on glass power build. Yes oneshot power builds are just onetrick build where it's a hit and run but generally that will mostly be affective against players that don't know what to avoid and look for or simply are just not aware of that person's presence. As soon as you entire a fights let's say a 1v1 against a much more decent player you instally have to take in consideration many other factors like baiting skills, cooldown, dodges and position etc. On the other hand a trailblazer build does not need to worry about such things as much as a power build because if it's very forgiving nature and I believe that's what the community generally hate about condi builds. I will say for my experience from playing with alot of new players condi builds are much more easy to pick up and learn than a regular power build because of its very forgiving nature. On the other hand condis become pretty useless in larger scale fights just because of the amount of cleansing that supports bring.

[@captain2obvious226]

I agree that we oversimplify the topic since there are other factors to take into account. One huge determining factor is player skill/mechanic. Imo, builds are arbitrary, since they can be manipulated anytime. Sure they can influence the flow depending on which has the better yield per effort spent but, the deciding factors are usually player skill/mechanics and game knowledge. I play GW2 the same way I play Tekken 7, learn the fundamentals and build your game plan, the rest will follow.

[@Fiyaaaahh]

The one thing this video did not touch upon is that all CC conditions are cleansed hand-in-hand with damaging conditions. Thus standard anti-CC also immediately counters condi builds. Moreover, due to the damage-over-time nature of condi dmg, condi builds are forced to do much overkill dmg (i.e. dish out more damage than the total health of the target before it goes down) and many attacks can be erased in one cleanse with the healing skill still available afterwards. On the flipside expertise boosts both regular and CC conditions from one stat. However that stat is hard to come by in conquest. Overall I think both damage types are balanced in pve, but in pvp power has the upper hand because of the quicker burst and only one way to undo damage dealt.

[@J-A-W]

YOu have some great videos man. Just started playing GW2 and generally have no idea.... about much of anything lol. I am currently playing a condi engineer build (only level 35 so far) and have found that while I do damage much slower than my elementalist friend I tend to live longer due to a wonderful ability called rocket boots. are there more movement abilities that I should watch for as I progress? Not sure if you see any of these comments on older videos but if you do I would be interested in your answer. Thanks!!

[@Vallun]

gw2 is a very different game than most, surviving is mostly about positioning so yes movement skills will help you a lot. just keep leveling and learning everything you can, this is the easy part. Engineers can get mobility from super speed on some tool belt skills as well as some leaps from the rifle.

[@ephemerallies8931]

this opinion is far too nuanced for the community

[@goofofff]

As a new player (even though I've been on and off for 2 years) your content is awesome and so helpful

[@MrDJJ113]

can you drop the link for the final fantasy victory theme?

[@ExitusPax]

I think a simple way to put it is that the problem isn't the conditions themselves, but rather that several abilities can seem overtuned once you took their conditions into account. Sure, Power builds can hurt, but a least there is (usually) some kind of tell. It ends up giving the feeling that it is very easy for a player facing a condition build to make a mistake and that there isn't much they can do about it (unless of course they are packing condition cleanse). Basically, it can create the feeling of "Where is all of this damage coming from?" which of course leads to the feeling that condition builds are too strong... Of course he reality is that the pendulum can swing in either direction. That all being said, just play what you want and have fun with it.

[@Relhio]

Thank you for mentioning the side roles that are invaluable. Support roles fill that gap that people never notice. Why were you able to win that team fight? Because that Druid/Firebrand was keeping your ass alive, or your Scrapper was ccing and finishing the enemy team at the right time.

[@rodfarva5107]

As a condi player nothing is more satisfying then getting a kill from the grave epically on a boss that the group was struggling with or in pvp

[@dragongoddragneel7106]

Good video. Looking forward to more

[@Shin8bi]

I remember core necro, condi and fear build. The control with fear, I had so many in my build along with the heavy condition setup many mad players lol. Warriors were the hardest matchup for me though, but hella fun.

[@jovanmajs8705]

can you share your Revenant build from the beginning of this vid please.

[@Vallun]

check out the celestial herald video on my channel

[@soneca798]

I really love your videos, they always help me understand what I'm doing in pvp better, and always give me some fun gameplay to watch and learn from, which I think is kind of lacking from KZbin sometimes when it comes to wanting to learn gw2 pvp. I do have a question/topic idea though, which is something that's been giving me doubts ever since I started doing pvp in this game. I'm admittedly newer, on and off on the pvp seasons, so excuse me if this is something that's supposed to be obvious, but sometimes it feels like the answer to this changes as the meta evolves. But what's the best way to deal with downstate players? I've often heard that bleeding them is good, but lately I've been hearing that in this meta rezing power is too strong to leave players in downstate. But then what's the best course of action? When do you know when it's most effective to cleave or stomp or actually just leave them to bleed out? While this might be something that ends up coming naturally with experience, I often find myself struggling to make a decision when an enemy goes down, and that sometimes causes me to die myself, or another enemy to get an eady res on them

[@Vallun]

know all the potential situations that can happen. If they enemy has a banner warrior then they could rez, so youd need to have an interupt ready. If youre unsure its generally better to not take risks and just finish the body. When bleeding a body its a lot of mental effort because you need to be hyper aware of where everyone is. In that way bleeding is much more difficult but its definitely the better play sometimes.

[@jonahk6577]

What type of herald is that being played in this vid? I didn't know condi revs ran swords.

[@Vallun]

check out my celestial rev build video

[@jonahk6577]

@@Vallun ohh okay. Wish I could do something like this for PvE cuz it looks hella fun. Im mainly a pve guy

[@Red-ws6su]

10:35 When you use for example mistform on elementalist in your downstate and you check the death recap to see what dmg killed you, you see that the mistform did all the "damage". When you do not mistform, you can actually see the dmg that killed you. Im telling you, the death recap is so outdated and bad... @Vallun

[@Yaeshi]

additional problems with condis: too spammable (mainly from AAs) and can be reapplied faster and more than you can have cleanses in your build. There are couple of "broken" abilities which provide too many stacks of single condi at once which results in dmg spike higher than glass power setup. Cover condis play a big role in terms of cleansing as well, since you cannot control which condi u gonna cleanse its normal you gonna cleanse soemthing like weakness/immob/cripple but you will still be left with 6 or more stacks of burning etc. which will kill you. Also you can block power damage. so after you are out of your dodges and you have the means, you can block next attacks, however in terms of conditions, you can only block skill which applies the condis, but you cannot block the condi damage itself, that is why I think there is more ways to counter power than condi. Also you can kite out power opponent, you cannot kite condis applied to you

[@hopefalls2039]

I think you can block applied condis with invulnerability but i'm not sure.

[@Yaeshi]

@@hopefalls2039 yeah, but how many invulns are there ? not that many, and most come from skills, so you would be trading potential cleanse for invuln which wont higher your chances to survive condi dmg

[@akhsdenlew1861]

Condi are also highly countered by supports.. there are some groups of 2-3 people roaming in wvw for example and 1 of them is a tempest support. Which will literally make ur condi dmg 0... U're generally better off playing power instead of condi when going up against supports...

[@Yaeshi]

@@akhsdenlew1861 well, but we are talking here about direct comparison... yeah ofc you can have 1 player to be a cleasne bot ... but that has nothing to do with how are these 2 types of dmg balanced between themselves

[@akhsdenlew1861]

@@Yaeshi actually it depends, are we talking about wvw? or pvp? Cus wvw is balanced around large or small scale fights, which means that u're gonna have to deal with supports MOST of the time..WvW is actually not balanced around roaming and 1v1..Which is something that many people miss to see. For pvp yes i agree, but pvp doesn't have things like trailblazer right? Condis do not have the tankiness there...

[@neoliticus2199]

Have you ever considered streaming on twitch? Man you deserve more subs, such a great videos..

[@dilamartins]

He does, just search for him there.

[@pfunkle]

kzbin.info?v=aGY6YrO70Kk&event=video_description&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.twitch.tv%2Fvallun&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbGE4M0VyX2Z2RU52Mkw3M2ZCejU0ejE3RVM0UXxBQ3Jtc0tram96Wk5DR3RxMGFjUG9fbWNNSkQ3ZVV1eGcyUXFQN1JyWWswdll0Tko3amEzQk1QbGhGaTZhMXNoTGNXNkl5ZUxEUzdZWGcxRXJleXFMaFBHQ0pTYVgzRklYYmdxMUlxT3MwUmVkbXlNQ1EzeEhUOA%3D%3D

[@nikita1009]

Vallun what do you think about DH trapper build in wvw?

[@ag0nii]

Honestly i have been trying to get the PvP in this game but i prefer power builds with alot of crits. And i always get so mad cuz of (in my mind) the condi builds are kicking my ass everytime, and i never understood what i did wrong. It sucked the fun out of the game for me. But dude this video was so insighful to me, i finally understand now =) thnx m8, great video!

[@jonahk6577]

What armor is that? Looks sick

[@JSpence163]

conditions have more counterplay because guardians and warriors slapping you with 5-7k burning tics exist

[@datre5921]

and they exist because of cancers that can apply 10 kinds of conditions periodically....

[@nuhdah]

This leads me to ask, is there any power build counter to that "Raid Boss" Necro build you've presented before...?

[@Vallun]

yup, the brusier builds like spellbreaker and holo that have lots of cc

[@nuhdah]

@@Vallun i know that in the past engies were countered by such necro builds, but you say holo is fine in taking this fight. i mean it has the cc and burst so i don't doubt this, but is an interesting development none the less. But I'm not sure the spellbreaker has enough dmg to kill that thing.

[@Vallun]

youd need a more condition based build to fight a holo, the raid boss necro doesnt do enough dmg. So yes a more conventional necro would counter holo

[@nuhdah]

@@Vallun and those can be countered with more glassy power builds. i see the picture.

[@swanofnutella4734]

I like both, and hybrid (and support.) 2nd Priority is that however the build does it, it is effective and synergistic. 1st Priority however, is that the cadence and feel of the build works for me on a personal level. Great video. Looking forward to more these contemplative vids.

[@quarktasche4997]

I think that there are 2 aspects, that really prevent me - as a solo pvper - from advancing to the next level. First is mentioned here: you cannot customize the UI. I used to play Age of Conan for years, where the enemy buffs and debuffs were located at the bottom right, just above the skill bar. It's realllly hard to "unlearn" that. The second aspect somewhat derives from condis: while avoiding powerdamage mostly is the same for each class (knowing when to dodge, position yourself properly and use your 1 bubble or blocking skill) the classes have quite different mechanics to deal with condis. One uses an elite with certain runes, next swaps wespons, one uses shouts, the other have passives that require you to use your skills in a certain order, like removing movement inhib. Condis by doing action X first to then cleanse a random condi by Y next. Now, while thats not a Problem per se as you can just get better due to training another misconception thwarts that: ranked pvp / elo score is account wide, not character wide (i'd suggest an opt in/out mechanic). So I'm playing a Shout support spellbreaker for 3, 4 seasons now, tried different takes on it, swap my weapon sets and traits before the match according to the comps and I know it by heart. This build allows me to stay around 1500+-. Now if i wanna try something else, like a necro, engi or guardian I get myself a build (youre a great source for that, btw), do some unranked matches: first I need to find my fingers and after 10-15 matches or so I just dominate most untiered matches, just because the discrepancy in knowledge is just so huge. But superior knowledge of pvp + mediocre control of your 'new' pvp toon equate into Gold II tier and not into platinum. So you either dont learn to get better, because fighting in unranked doesnt force you to, or you get crushed in your original tier and cannot pull your weight.

[@Vallun]

absolutely, and its gonna take time to get multiple classes to an acceptable level, but once you do your average rating (or whatever you want to use to measure skill) will rise. Maybe not at first but its a good investment

[@Lilybun]

Great vid, right on the money. Systems wise power and condi are fairly well adjusted, though condi clean priority could use some work. Like you said the real crux of what makes people salty is the level of interaction with certain builds and classes but i would go one step further and say that the power budget given to classes is all out of wack ie. how much is a blink worth, how much is a stealth worth, how much is immobilize worth and so on. Discrepancies in how much access to which tools is given to what class is entirely based on the nebulous concept of class identity rather than gameplay balance. The reason why thief can do oneshot bursts from stealth into stealth, dodge 7 times after blinking 5 times is not because any of that is conducive fun gameplay but because that fits the identity of an elusive thief. This kind of balance philosophy generally exists within a context of rock paper scissors where the elusive thief is paper to the scissors of a class loaded with lines, counter-blinks and reveals. However GW2 is not a game designed in such a way and i much prefer it that way, skill trumping matchups leads to far more rewarding gameplay than rock paper scissors. Unfortunately though the balance team (balance guy more like) did not get the memo or simply does not have resouces to manage such a complex interwoven system. As a result we get the skewed mess we have now

[@koriki9235]

I would like them to train the tank team to conditions, then we would see more balance in fights, since there comes a time when you do not have more clean condis. and he continues to stake conditions and endure more than one power

[@Microtardz]

I think the "counterplayability" section misses out on the fact that you can reset a fight far more easily against power damage than you can against condition damage. Since power damage all you have to do is get out of combat, whereas condition damage you have to either cleanse the conditions or wait those condition timers out. And this is a huge part of PvP for squishy power builds. That whole "running away" you mention. You can't simply run away from a condition build, but you can simply run away from a power build. To add to that, condition builds tend to carry a lot more chill, cripple, and immobilize. This further reduces your ability to reset a fight, and immobilize in particular has a tendency to completely screw many players over.

[@michaelmoran4012]

i would like to point to cellofrag's condi bunker weaver i can play that and not die 1v2 all day, but in 1v2 i also need 10 minutes to kill 1 of them

[@loorky2126]

my personal problem with condisions isnt that its op or to hard to outplay but its the way how u apply conditions. For exampel the demon stance ult from rev if i as a power build stand on node and want to contest him he press just 1 butten and i cant rly do anything against it i becasue its not worth to dodge a singel tick and it would take a way to many cds to cleanse themfor that amount of dmg. In my opinion u would need to change the way of how u apply conditions instead of nerfing them dead. What I mean is i am compleatly fine with conditions as long they are active instead of passive applyed (u have that also on power builds like kalla rene that should changed also but it feels like its a way more on conie builds)

[@Fejhz]

I like the way this video is rounded up. I mean for 16 min you go in a full comprehensive mode to try to clarify things in between power / conditions in way to end this absurd debate, and then suddenly, you burst it all off with one sentence "We all know true elitist run hybrid build". However, I'll try to find it out by myself but you talked about a great sword guardian build ? Viable in pvp ?

[@Vallun]

yup its on the pvp playlist i linked

[@Fejhz]

@@Vallun Damn it I forgot to edit the message x) Yeah I found it but ty anyway ^^ keep going mate I'm addict to your content !

[@ev0h]

Whenever i pushed myself to legendary i used my own Hybrid Berserker, even with Spellbraker release :)

[@gainsofglory6414]

I have had my best success running a hybrid power/condi build. Heavy on carriom stats, lots of hp, berserker with Ax and torch. Lots of aoe, easy to land burn damage dots with a good amount of burst to catch people as well. I've done far better with that mix than full condi or power.

[@Rinsii-y6k]

Fantastic video, I really enjoyed listening to it.

[@elevyy]

ur vids always insightful

[@menzo4862]

"you just need to get good and deal with conditions better" Really?!?!?! LOL Sorry Vallun, but I think u need to leave the surface of the issue and get deep into it. There are a lot of things that you are not considering in your video. For example: Does Anet really know if things are in balance or not? Do they know if there is a real balance between specs when they create a new spec? Do they know how to balance the game (classes, skills, traits, gamemodes) or not? Do you know how many reworks/revamps some skills and specs had in the past? So... why do u think that I need to deal with it better? Do you really think that all specs have the correct and balance amount of cleansing to deal with the correct and balance amount of conditions in this game? REALLY? lol

[@sirdrunknor6565]

Very good video and a nice view on both damage type. Like you mention, not every build can counter every mechanic and depending on what class, your mechanic option are very limited. I think adding on your view of power build being less interactive and condition build being easier to play, it also wildly depends on the build and class on both damage side, adding on that the mechanical skill of the player. Good video Vallun, looking forward for more info base video but lets not forget that even with a well edit and informative video players will still cry because of hating on something, raging at dying or any other random reasons without taking the time to stop and think over a lost to improve. Don

[@captaincrapface7337]

There is no problem with conditions but rather with classes themselves i would say or rather specific combinations of classes and bilds. I specificly put 4-5 condition clenses into my bild. Still there were certen specialisations i hated to ply against. For example i loved fighting Reapers as it felt for me like skill based machup but hated fighting Scourges becouse why dafug one aoe skill can apply four different conditions cover entire bloody point and also there are like three of them at the time all of a sudden. It just feals frustrating to play against as most of what scourge has to do is to stand on top of his aoe and spam it to get a satysfying result. Im not saying that skill celling for condition users is lower im saying that skill floor definitely is lower. (Checked that personly. Im not good enough to just pick up and play a powerbild that isnt goddamn glasscanon and contribute at least one for one to the teamfight but i could pick up both condi Guard as well as condi Necro and do good enough to not get insulted by my teammates.)

[@PwadigytheOddity]

Fr though, I want to find old clips of condi mirage, and just put your voice over saying "if you complain about conditions, just git gud." Oh, also you forgot the other aspect to condi: duration is obfuscated. You can't know exactly how much condition damage is going to fall-off, and even then, you have to translate that moving line around the condi symbols and calculate how much damage the condi will do, and then also make sure you know just how much condi damage each stack is doing, and also, also how many stacks. By definition, every second you spend having to do this to determine if you should cleanse, you're fucking up your power skill timing, and you're also getting ticked by condis. So what are we supposed to do just immediately know just how much condi damage a class is doing and if it's a thread, *before* it starts ticking? What if the condis are trash condis applied by a relatively hybrid build? Are you supposed to start wasting time clearing condis just to find out "ope, actually I'm supposed to also be avoiding the power." You can argue into the weeds all day that you should "know what the skills do," but *really*? Considering the massive amount of variables one has to go through to beat condis unless they can just bypass condi entirely by having passive cleanses (which negates the entire skill argument of condi). Are we really describing an equal knowledge-set? But at the end of the day, a condi play just has to know what the big power damage skills on each class looks like. And a power damage class is generally heavily telegraphed. And power, unlike condi, can't punish you for not knowing their build immediately as easily. I feel like there's a golden mean fallacy here. The argument is that condi is fair, so long as you're doing 3D calculus while managing your power skill timings. And this is ok... because... power requires you to look at the screen and know when to dodge? Big false equivalency here. Also, frankly, condis are uninteresting. You can argue into the weeds about how much skill condis take, but it doesn't matter. Let's assume you're right, and condi match-ups take an equal amount of skill. By definition, watching a condi fight is going to be so much less satisfying, and so much less fun to play. Even *if* condis were as balanced as you claim: **Balance =/= fun**. So let's say you're entirely right (which I've gone into so much detail on why not). In fact, let's say you're more than right. Let's pretend condis take infinite more skill than power to play, and secretly those button-mashing scourges were playing 4D chess for 2 years after PoF. That still doesn't mean the game **should** play that way. It's unfun to watch, and unfun to attract new people to. With power, it's very easy for someone to appreciate what goes into making power work. If you want an example of balance over fun and enjoyability, where unfun strats are prioritized simply because they can be argued to take skill, just look at Smogon and competitive Pokemon battling. All the "pro players" argue until their face turns blue why all the stall pokemon are fine and uhm... "actchtually he lost because he wasn't managing his resources." Meanwhile their playerbase is dwindling, and the same dozen people just wank against eachother in their unfun game. And we **really, really** need a watchable, fun Gw2 experience in every dimension. sPvP had so much potential. And condi just isn't. Frankly, when you win against condi, it feels hollow. Like nothing interesting happened. You start a condi fight going "well fuck, here we go again." And then even if you win the 4D chess you claim is involved in condi, you leave the victory just eye-rolling. With power, you're staring center screen, watching every animation. If there's an audience and the game is streamed, they are too. You're part of an immersive spectacle, and so is the enemy. You're dancing and weaving against your opponent. Suddenly a scourge appears and then 3 red rings pop-up and suddenly you're staring at the UI feeling unsatisfied and robbed because mister "4D chess contrarian" thinks condi is fun to play against, and "actchtually git gud, condi is fair bc... balanced... counters" Like, "w/e nerd, have fun playing your game by yourself with no watchers"

[@luisjosp5]

Thanks for the Subs, much appreciated.

[@lordmed9989]

From the launch to this day i only play condi because i like a strategic play style I remember back in the days were no one plays condi i was roaming with condi mesmer it was a bad build yet op because no one knows how to counter condi and cleansing was not a meta. But now days every build have a lot of counter to condi so its not as strong as it used to be but still fun

[@jacobbankshaft5751]

God help condi builds that go against a veteran player. if you know how to handle and transfer conditions, they can't touch you. it all depends on who you are against, power is no better than condition because it's all situational.

[@l1ttlemyu]

Power! Thanks for the vid!

[@Brotection_]

I prefer power builds due to the more generally interactive gameplay as well, and don't typically struggle against condition builds, unless they're a hard counter to my build. However, I think when a good deal of people "complain" about conditions in this meta they primarily mean in sPvP in particular. Condition builds aren't necessarily better than power builds in sPvP, but they are more prevalent (I think this is likely because of the more crowded and forced combat nature of sPvP, whereas WvW allows for more breathing room and class synergy in groups; there's also stat and skill scaling to take into account), and - as you've said - that can make the game a bit less interactive when the diversity of meta builds in competitive sPvP are primarily condition builds. Another thing worth mentioning is that while you're correct in that some power builds can compete with some trailblazer condition builds in WvW, other trailblazer condition builds completely blow alot of stuff out of the water, or outright kill other options for their own specific class. For example alot of what supports do now is cleansing instead of direct healing - which is why, say, Support Firebrand is seen much less often than it used to be in WvW (where it's mainly used for utility and boons now), and is pretty much outright dead in sPvP (despite it having more overall healing potential than Tempest or Spellbreaker supports in sPvP specifically - since 10 man heals are a thing in WvW), because it lacks cleanses in this more condition damage heavy meta. So, TLDR, I think diversity is what most people are upset and disappointed about. The imbalanced aspects of sPvP and WvW right now are sort of evenly spread across both power and condition builds.

[@geoffp625]

Great video thank you but "Settle this debate once and for all" ROFL, till the next patch ;) besides meta condi/power fights are more vicious than PvP

[@datre5921]

First of all, sorry. My English is not good at writing, and I have helped myself with Saint Google The main point against build condi, is that to counteract them you need to have certain skills that normally only do that: clean them. And in most cases, in the long run they are not enough. Beyond that, you sacrifice the possibility of wearing other skilles in general terms: "useful", for having the clear condi. And in cases that have useful side effects, many times you sacrifice that utility or damage by having to use them. In addition, you should always measure the health of a build not only based on how strong it is, but how boring, difficult, or tedious it is for others to play against it. Guardian condi core, it is the build that I currently use in pvp that I have the most fun. It is not the strongest, it is not spectacular, but I have fun. If I understood something with this build regarding the conditions, it is that I am not disgusted with builds that are based on 1 or 2 of them to do damage. The problem, at least for me, are builds where almost "free", they give you all the harmful conditions, including those of GW1 and WoW (cof cof fking mesmers) Also those where in addition to damage, they give you permanently control conditions such as immobilize (disgusting rangers) I was never a fan of the "secondary" type of damage (elemental, dark, poisons, magical, etc), but I understand the need for its existence, and the goal. In GW2, my problem is with these characters that I mention, for example, that they can put too many kinds of conditions. I doubt the necessity of the existence of torment and confusion; moreover I doubt the need for characters to apply various types. This leads to a new dimension of how to counteract them. There are characters who can maintain a cleaning of few conditions periodically, and others with a cleaning source of a large number in a short time, but with a huge downtime. And the same is true for condition build types. It just ends up being playing the lottery.

[@multic0l0r16]

What is this Noody cosplay intro?

[@KamiKaXi]

this is what i want to understand thanks

[@Snow-Ista]

its just some classes are better at dealing either power or condition damage take for instance the warrior the warrior isn't really good at condition damage but i know your going to say what about bleeds and burn yes but still the warrior has the least amount of potential to deal condition damage compared to all the other classes so thy tend to lean towards power and sins power isn't what it use to be now warrior has a really hard time in wvw there are still power builds that do really well in wvw like power soulbeast and its because of there ability to lockdown there enemies while staying at range most of the slow hard hitting builds is almost useless because of the s most classes now have meaning you can most likely ignore most of there damage i know your going to say well most classes has slow and fast hitting weapon yes but thy aren't viable sins the fast hitting weapon like axe/axe on warrior is so predictable meaning if you see the warrior starting to spin just dodge and stay away for like 4 seconds and go kill him sins he just used his hardest hitting ability and when he pulls back with bout arms just dodge it again you can take the greatsword but the hardest hitting ability thousand blades puts you and a long ass animation so you have to pair it with a knock down weapon like hammer its gets insane to the point of frustration of how bad the class has become in roaming and still there are guys that do well with the class like Vaanss kzbin.info but not every one is at that level of game play and the average joe just cant pull that off so now the warrior has become a boonrip support class in a zerg because thy suck other wise so yes i think condi builds are over powered specially if you take how fast some classes can stack conditions

[@Kxyba]

Like this stuff, good vid

[@HarJBeRw]

Great video! But have to be honest man, was running the video at x1.25 speed ^^' You talk a bit slow

[@Zm0r]

Oh my fucking god, cancer mesmer at 8:40.

[@76Bagnasty]

Virgin condi vs Chad power meme

[@LePetitCitron-guy]

The problem is the 4 stats gear, u said it yourself condi only need condition dmg to deal dmg while power need 3 stats. Removin trailblazer, marauder and such would balance the game

[@jacobruiter592]

From what I have seen some conditions last for ages. I think(from my limited understanding of high level PvP) that condition duration should be a required heavy investment to get anything worthwhile and Ferocity should require less investment to hit hard. Pair the Ferocity change with less easy access to precision in builds and I think things would balance out.... probably.

[@akhsdenlew1861]

the problem is with condis themselfs. Some condis are good , like confusion and torment. And some are just bad, like bleed. And some are decent, like burn. Condi builds need to be more tanky cus they will naturally take longer to kill stuff.. cus of condi cleanse and the way condi works. While power builds will just cheese out with 1 shot burst or at least HIGH dmg burst. If condi builds didn't have the extra survivability, they would never be viable against a power build... INSTANT dmg is way better than overtime dmg in pvp. Also, supports counter condis to the ground... fighting 2-3 ppl with 1 tempest behind is basically making condis un-existant.. The condi cleanse and condi counter is just way too much.. as well as resistance. It's not as simple as the stats.. Condis do need the extra survivability to work, cus they need to stay there and apply condi pressure, while power builds can quickly burst 2-3 seconds and kite, and repeat. it's not that simple.. there's just so many things to take into consideration than just the gear.

[@jacobruiter592]

@@akhsdenlew1861 you bring up a good point actually. You cannot pick what you cleanse, and certain Conditions are really bad, while some are not. Being able to have different types of cleanses, like a "freedom of movement" cleanse to protect from hard CC. And condition cleanse. Either that of have condition cleanse prioritize highest damage first, then hard CC. Maybe that would fix it.

[@akhsdenlew1861]

@@jacobruiter592 there are some of those skills actually.. like thief's heal.. But i guess there's only a few..

[@Deviantloverable]

Yeah...hybrid is what i play to this date.

[@xXMetalforever1994Xx]

i prefer condi cause i don't like glass cannon builds.

[@koriki9235]

For me, everyone who plays to conditions is because they have a lack of power, they only know how to play easy

[@the.baxtian]

False, I use up to 8 cleanings and it doesn't work, the classes with condis don't stop setting condis, with no time between each condition. Condis is easier to use since you have to do nothing, just install the condi. One after another sin stop infinitely. I DON ' T HAVE Infinite cleanings. Drop the excuses and get to work ArenaNet.

[@hedeviltazz4185]

good stuff vallun

[@NeverWolf]

I choose both.

[@Ant4rez.s2]

nice shit !!! thanks

[@zeanentertainment8045]

I build power build for my elementalist. And i died every fucking single time😂 he like didn wearing armor at all. Too squisy even he have 17k HP😂

[@danielemirto7161]

Nice video

[@ScROnZjara]

Thank you.

[@earlingtonthe3rd]

Nice dude

[@MrRevCytosis]

"I'm pretty much done with build videos" hahaha

[@Vallun]

did not age well at all

[@_Encie]

amazing ff7 theme

[@lurchstyx2443]

I love this

[@simonlyd4770]

Nice, good to know that the game is perfectly balanced, nothing to complain about, just need get good.

[@Vallun]

from a design standpoint yes, from a numbers perspective probably not

[@andrewcingle833]

This video seems to be targeting players that do pvp. But what about those of us that don't do any form of pvp.

[@tritonus1415]

PVP is de wey

[@Vallun]

the AI does not complain about conditions, but in general isnt it just based on the boss which one is better

[@andrewcingle833]

@@tritonus1415 *bleeuugh!!!!*, Sorry just thru up a little there. (Yes that's exactly what I feel about pvp).

[@tritonus1415]

@@andrewcingle833 You know, it's always the newbies that don't like pvp. I wonder why..oh yeah, because they get farmed.

[@andrewcingle833]

@@tritonus1415 I've played games for years. I'm 46, I've never liked pvp.

[@dustdreams9728]

how the turn have tabled, condi is much better than power now in every gamemode kekw

[@PlanetFromOuterSpace]

I lose respect for anyone who uses the phrase "get gud." Just because you are using a build which doesn't have a problem with conditions doesn't mean that there is no problem with conditions, for instance. If there are frequent complaints about something, that is a good indication that something systemic is wrong. The complaints themselves are usually off the mark but are a result of the underlying issue.

[@ephemerallies8931]

What the community complains about is not a good metric.

[@Vallun]

you are right about a side effect being indicative of an underlying issue. But the solution is perhaps that there is not enough information readily available to players who do not know how to deal with conditions. Rather than saying that conditions are inherently bad, maybe there should be a conditions tutorial in the game, or that PvE should use more conditions to give players more experience against them.

[@akhsdenlew1861]

@@Vallun in high end pve, conditions are used.. but in lower tr pve... like fractals, which is something that almost EVERYONE does or have done in the past, they are not used. Cus condis take time to be good, while instant power burst will be good immediatly.. leading to very fast clears, which is what matters in the fractals. In fractals condi builds will NEVER be equal to power builds.. Therefore, players won't get sufficient experience with the condis... mainly cus they suck compared to power builds. Now in pvp or wvw, things are Way more tricky, but the casual/new player won't jump into those immediatly i assume.

[@PlanetFromOuterSpace]

@@ephemerallies8931 It is if you plan to have a game played by those people.

[@jorgandar]

Conditions are OP on damage but also too easy to remove. Since most players know they need good cond cleansing, condition builds become good only against the minority of players who don't have good cond cleans. Therefore, condition builds mostly suck. Too many builds with too much cond cleanse. Conditions need to be reworked entirely.

[@owl6496]

You smoke too much. Your voice is affected

[@ephixel]

his vocal fry is hot tho

[@aaronward7854]

Sounds like remixed golden sun music