Conflict Emergence

[@martinmanifold2241]

When the stakes are that high ...checking out the message was the sanest course of action ....

[@Romulan2469]

The captain was too trigger happy if you recall his conversation earlier with Hunter about dropping the atomic bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[@stonem0013]

but what if a pre emptive strike would neutralise the ultranationalists nuke and prevent an attack on the US??

[@peterm2]

In this fictional world where you can rescind a nuclear launches, sure.

[@jaredpaynter4140]

Easy to say when you know no nuclear weapons have been launched at your country when you spent your entire adult life defending it

[@blackhog]

easier said than done. think having a nuclear launch at your fingertip constitutes to any form of sane situation?

[@LebronTraveled24]

This is definitely a reasonable doubt argument. Their last complete orders were to launch however because the last transmission was fragmented and it pertained to the nuclear missile it planted seeds of doubt on the entire crew enough so to cause a mutiny. With so much at stake the captain should have exercised caution and found a way to confirm that message. Once you send that nuke off there’s no getting it back

[@mackdiesel2576]

I agree but the commanders who sent the previous message authorizing the launch (the orders at hand here) should have taken that into consideration. Once the order is issued, they may very well be crossing a point of no return. Luckily it took time to carry out the first order though obviously

[@WeFreestyleForever]

I completely disagree. Fission occurs when a neutron slams into a larger atom, forcing it to excite and split into two smaller atoms, also known as fission products. Additional neutrons are also released that can initiate a chain reaction. Fallout radiation decays relatively quickly with time. Most areas become fairly safe for travel and decontamination after three to five weeks. We are going to die anyway, so if the last order was to launch. That's the order.

[@LebronTraveled24]

@@WeFreestyleForever what are you referring to lol. I’m saying once a nuclear warhead is launched you can’t stick it back in its tube

[@REB4444]

The Captain was in the right and HIS orders were clear.

[@LebronTraveled24]

@@REB4444 except they were wrong and would’ve started an unnecessary war. I understand in the military it’s understood that you follow the last orders given but sometimes you have to make sure, especially when there’s so much hanging in the balance.

[@palmerlp]

The first of five classic collaborations between Denzel and Tony Scott.

[@toasterpastries5811]

3:12 *"They contain no ambiguity." literally just received a fragmented order message a minute ago*

[@horseradish4046]

All the fragment means is that there is a *possibility* that the order was cancelled. If that possibility is enough to prevent them from confidently carrying out their last order, then that would also imply that they shouldn't carry out any order in any situation if their communications are down, fragment or not, because there's always some chance of an unreceived order cancellation. Such a policy would effectively neutralize any armed force with any orders by making their communications a target. Then again, when global nuclear war is at stake, that does complicate things.

[@Astroman1990]

An incomplete message is no message at all. If the enemy knew that your military procedure was to pause every time you got an incomplete message then the enemy would try to either jam your communications or instead send fake communiques, thus possibly sowing doubt and hesitation in the minds of the military commander. This scene is not as black and white as I thought as a kid watching this movie. I can see both the Captain’s and the XO’s argument clearly

[@SantomPh]

@@Astroman1990 the transmission is not a wide broadcast Now Hear This type. It is a direct order from the White House to the Alabama to either launch or abort. The first orders were clearly to launch but the second orders were unclear. The Captain must wait for another order to come through cleanly. This is a nuke order and should be confirmed over and over before activated.

[@BungieStudios]

The fragmented order is no order at all. The confirmed and authenticated order to launch the nukes should be carried out. The Captain is 100% correct. The XO is also 100% within his right to halt the launch since the fragment creates doubt.

[@youseff500]

​@@BungieStudios how tf does someone contradict themselves as much as you did? Even if "the fragmented order is no order at all," the XO has the final say. They cannot launch until both officers agree. If the XO doesn't agree, then they don't launch, and that's no problem. There's a reason a two-officer, and even Russia's 3-officer system, exists. Hell, even the weapons officer can seal off the room if they believe there's a breach in Nuclear Weapons Procedure. Nukes aren't a joke. There are fail-safes for a reason. In reality, Hunter is 100% in the right.

[@buckfiden2594]

Somebody saying Hackman was over the top at the end there and that his character would risk losing support from the crew by appearing unhinged. However I think it's Hackman showing that his character is morally conflicted as much as the XO is but he's going to live with his "old school" mindset of following orders and not questioning "why", even though he's certainly feeling the stress and the magnitude of the situation. This entire exchanged was foreshadowed earlier in the movie when the men dined together at the officers' table. Anyway I think Hackman was brilliant as usual. He was always good at acting pissed off come to think of it. No Way Out, Unforgiven, The Quick & The Dead, probably a bunch more.

[@jb34304]

>He was always good at acting pissed off come to think of it. Yeah, it seems like he was kind of pigeonholed into those roles. :/ Regardless, he still performed the roles excellently. He's retired at this point. Gene's more dramatic acting reminded me a lot of my Grandfather. He was always ready to fly-off the handle when I was a kid, but it was because he was attempting to guide us in the right direction. When I became an adult, he would start tearing up every time I would give him a hug before leaving his house.

[@josephmarkey9096]

He also did friendly but threatening like nobody else

[@scoogsy]

Hackman was brilliant. Excellent scene.

[@ppvk2610]

Yeah .. No Way Out.. what a great movie, what a great plot. Come to think of it His rol in Absolute Power seems quite similar to No Way Out. If memory serves, it's been quite a while since I've seen those movies

[@EfieldHfield_377]

Awesome movie. Must watch again - an absolute classic

[@diabolic103]

One of his many intense hard nosed performances, Mr Hackman brings his A Game every single time 🔥💥💯

[@ColonelFrontline1152]

3:15/3:17 *"Mr. Hunter, I've made the decision. I'm captain of this boat. NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP!"*

[@eliashernandez9879]

Lol😂

[@billyelliot78]

Is it even possible to determine who the better actor is? Hackman and Washington go head to head in this movie is hard beat.

[@AKAFT]

All the enlisted are listening to this discussion very carefully, from the beginning.

[@VB-3]

Damn right they are.

[@captaincoyote1792]

While it wasn’t an issue of launching a strategic asset, I’ve witnessed a CO - more than once - in stressful situations, loose patience and “go off” like Hackman did in this scene. When a CO goes off, it most certainly gets the crew’s attention--quickly!

[@macallanvintage]

Thats because there can strictly only be ONE smartass on board a boat….and not 2 verbally fighting each other.

[@captaincoyote1792]

@@macallanvintage well said….and so damned true. I wonder why I can’t make my wife see that?

[@macallanvintage]

@@captaincoyote1792 Every courtship starts with 2 imbeciles busy acting and pretending, trying to impress each other. Both are quietly cunning and selfish. Every interview is also fake, involving lots of preparation and trying to impress the other party.

[@captaincoyote1792]

@@macallanvintage Damn, dude. You made me LOL. So true….and so damned funny! I’m still chuckling. Take care!

[@macallanvintage]

@@captaincoyote1792 Your wife cant see that because most females in the Western world are actually MALES..with female genitalia. Didnt you realise that very few women in the Western world behave in a genuinely feminine manner?😂 You actually married a man…who could be impregnated

[@johnspence8141]

I wish they added one line at the end: "Try to remain calm, Captain."

[@RConnickJr]

Denzel's character never would have said that at that moment, in that situation.

[@BungieStudios]

Most accurate bubblehead movie ever made. Pride and joy of John Paul Jones and the US Navy. A DVD copy hangs framed in the entrance of ONI HQ, Maryland. Semper Fortis. Anchors away!

[@ariplatt8192]

Two awesome actors. So good

[@generalrendar7290]

Any captain that has to yell out "I'm the captain!" Is no true captain.

[@peterkovacs834]

He was a good captain actually. He did everything by the book until he wanted to replace the XO.

[@generalrendar7290]

@@peterkovacs834 I do agree but the quote set up was too good.

[@lasvegassnowman5505]

You know this situation is so difficult to comprehend

[@Sakhmeov]

@@lasvegassnowman5505 He is getting pissed AF that his own damn XO is contravening his directives right there, in front of other officers and sailors. The job of the XO is to carry out the Captain's commands, not with interpretation or criticism but only with added detail or specific attention where required. If he wants to act as some kind of counsellor, then that's also his role and duty - but certainly not right in the middle of the bridge during high-alert operations and while under potential engagement.

[@robertfolkes389]

🔥😅 🧢

[@Grande79]

The great thing about this movie is that both men have a good logical argument. In fact I tend to think I would have launched.

[@martinmanifold2241]

I wouldnt , not when the stakes were so high ...

[@sushilsingh2099]

@@martinmanifold2241 stakes are equally high in both the cases.

[@martinmanifold2241]

@@sushilsingh2099 no one gets a second chance after armageddon ....

[@sushilsingh2099]

@@martinmanifold2241 that's why SSBNs are made to have 2nd strike capabilities & multiple of those are in Seas. Even if he would have fired those 10 missiles it wouldn't have eliminate all of Russia's nuclear arsenal & they would have launched in response. That's why stakes were equally high even if you nuke first or in retaliation.

[@j.j.4228]

@@sushilsingh2099 They did the right thing. If the last message says that the launch is still on...they had time to still launch. The whole point of Hackman saying " you have 3 minutes".

[@ivarstrom1509]

A beautiful film to watch, especially against the background of the current situation with regard to Ukraine. We can be sure that boats like this, with crews like this, are currently in a waiting position in northern waters. As sad as that is.

[@Antonio18677]

yes 100%

[@Suckmykiss247]

Fuck Ukraine

[@Satai80]

When I saw this movie first time I thought that Captain ignored X.O.:s suggestions to confirm EAM only because he really wanted to launch the missiles. He had been captain so many years and been in combat situations but never ever have gotten the chance to fire most powerful weapons in his arsenal. So basically I thought that he was just nuts. :D

[@AC-iz7eh]

Hahaha that could be it. But fortunately the movie wasn't going that direction 😂

[@socksincrocks4421]

Such a good movie...

[@nhtp342501]

2021. Here. Seen it. Loved it

[@noellecox3952]

I remember Tony Scott was making this movie I glad he got Denzel Washington playing hunter I heard he was going to get al Pacino for playing captain Ramsey I glad he didn't get al Pacino for this role he got the best actor for this role his name was gene Hackman he was fantastic and brilliant in this movie from start to finish

[@bens8013]

Do you like "a few good men" also, with hackman. ? - It's a good one if you haven't seen it. I like the lunch scene at quantico....flight data records.

[@oaw972]

​@@bens8013ummm.... Gene Hackman was not in A few good men

[@maxbowie6074]

God I'd take Hackman over Pacino any day.

[@tr9809]

This was just after the cold war, the Captain had an old school mentality based on MAD. In a more complex geopolitical landscape, Naval captains need to be more critical and evaluative like Hunter. Also, in this situation a nuclear strike was unnecessary, the same prevention could have occurred using cruise missiles and an air strike from a carrier using smart bunker busters to take out the naval base.

[@paulhoffman778]

MUTUAL ASSURED DESTRUCTION , YES I ALSO SUFFER FROM A COLD WAR MENTALITY, OLD NAVY.

[@abehambino]

I’m not sure if they mention it, but I don’t think there were cruisers. They were there to be silent unless it became necessary and wouldn’t want to escalate the situation by having an armada present. If there were only subs in range, than what else could they do other than wait for the other side’s missiles to launch?

[@koc988]

@@abehambino Converted boomers can carry conventional and nuclear land attack missiles.

[@josephpowelliii9169]

Gene Hackman...very underated as an actor....

[@scottwright388]

Really??..I'm pretty sure he won a couple academy awards and likely other awards and nominations.

[@lonergr3107]

No he isnt, even Washington said he took that roll to spar with a master. Hackman is an all time great

[@howdydo5760]

Who else do you think is underrated? Michael jordan? Messi? Tom Brady? Daniel Day-Lewis? Everyone knows Hackman is great lol

[@maxbowie6074]

Hackman was an absolutely masterful actor. A unique talent

[@notta3d]

Think about it though. He did make a great point when he said all the other subs could have been destroyed. I'm curious how that would actually be handled today. Do they act on their last complete order or try to get the last message? What a great movie.

[@AbdEl-RahmanAAzab]

This actually can be solved by a very simple rule.. No nuclear launch order must be carried out in the case of an offline communication system.. so from the moment they receive an EAM to the actual launch moment.. the communication system musy be online every and each second and verified by pulses or (whatever means) in the case of a last minute abort message.. Also I think today's nukes have an abort system even after they have been launched..

[@nohbody85]

At the time this movie was made, this situation could have happened (well, not entirely. in reality all subs have multiple back-up radios that could be installed in case of damage or failure). But, the process to launch nuclear missiles from a US Ballistic Missile Sub, at the time this movie was taking place, was accurate. Now, a US Ballistic Missile Submarine cannot launch it's missiles until it receives the message to do so from the President.

[@notta3d]

@@nohbody85 Good info. The one line that really makes you wonder though is what if everything was taken out like the captain said? In that case the order from the president will never come and missiles are just sitting there idle.

[@nohbody85]

@@notta3d That would truly be both right and both wrong.

[@notta3d]

@@michaelrivera2080 Not me. That's why I asked the question.

[@ottomatix3397]

An amazing scene only a vet could pull off, my man was good too.

[@dragorn3212]

Jeez they make hackman's character so dense in this movie

[@judah5478]

The best scene in cinema history! 👍🏾 Hackman's character was a lunatic! 🙏🏾

[@connerbrandl5103]

I wouldn’t call him a lunatic

[@LordTalax]

That's an oversimplification.

[@Camcolito]

You obviously haven't seen much cinema.

[@NovHak]

Real life has proved the captain wrong : there have been cases on both sides, where people’s doubts averted a catastrophe.

[@blackfalkon4189]

> "captain there's an incoming message that's potentially a cancel order which would avoid a nuclear holocaust should we check it out?" > "yeah whatever"

[@blackeychan1970]

As a former cryptologic technician who served for five years in the Navy, the procedure is clear: in absence of a contravening order in a situation like that, we follow the orders IN HAND.

[@blackfalkon4189]

@@blackeychan1970 and if the incoming message could be such a contravening order?

[@blackeychan1970]

@@blackfalkon4189 - Without authentication, it's no order at all. We go through multiple checks in order to make sure that a launch order is authentic. In a situation like this, with communications down, bouyey cable severed and enemy missiles having launch capability in less than 60 minutes, you go with the orders you have in the absence of an authenticated, contravening order.

[@blackfalkon4189]

@@blackeychan1970 and if the XO comes up with a way to authenticate the potential contravening order?

[@blackeychan1970]

@@blackfalkon4189 - Remember that this is a rather time-sensitive situation.

[@Lovely-Fishes]

The Captain of the Sub got it all wrong because he was blinded by the powers bestowed upon him, that made him arrogant & ultimately ignorant...Crimson Tide 🔥❤️

[@garyjones9910]

Christ Gene Hackman was good

[@starkdilemma4916]

Mom... Dad... Stop fighting..

[@thewilliammao]

Calm down, Captain...you don't appear to be calm.

[@ItsMotoMatt]

Let's just be clear... the XO was correct. Every effort should be made to complete that EAM. In war, nothing can be left to chance.

[@ttrestle]

Favorite part of the film

[@johnkeros9109]

"I'm Capt of this boat. NOW STFU!!" "Ever watch Star Trek, sir? I'm Capt Kirk and you're Scotty..."

[@rc59191]

It still baffles me how someone could be so eager to launch nuclear weapons and cause a nuclear holocaust. Even during the Cuban Missile Crisis a Soviet Sailor went against orders and prevented nukes launching from his submarine.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

From the dinner conversation it becomes clearer: Ramsey *needs* it to be straightforward, because that's the only way it can work. If you give people agency in that situation, you'd always be second guessing yourself. Any launch order would spawn a long philosophical conversation. But as a submarine crew, you aren't privy to all the details. For Ramsey, the only way it can work is "follow the instructions". He has a clear instruction. He wants to launch. Put it another way: You give a commander launch keys and a set of rules to follow. Do you want him following those rules, or making his own choices?

[@SphincterOfDoom]

Because they had a time window before the others missiles could be fueled and launched, and there was an akula sub hunting them so they didn't have the luxury of going shallow to try to get the message.

[@Grande79]

He was facing his own country being attacked, eager is not the correct word.

[@treasurethetime2463]

Stop arguing. They were both right. Unlike in mathematics or in school, there is not always a clear cut "right" answer. The world is more, ahem, complicated than that.

[@youseff500]

how do you know they're both right

[@chumline577]

When it comes to Balistic Missles it's a different argument. Because once one is launched there isn't no coming back and you got 10 minutes or so to think about it.

[@babybearljuju7444]

It's one of my best movies 🎬

[@wongtong754]

The captain is right.

[@youseff500]

Wong

[@lonemaus562]

If he was right then everyone would have been dead the second the lunched those nukes. It’s better he was not right

[@lonemaus562]

If he was right then everyone would have been dead the second the lunched those nukes. It’s better he was not right

[@rhino2960]

when the lives of billions weigh on your actions, you confirm the order to fire, even if it kills you

[@aeroAdvocate]

That’s not the SOP.

[@rhino2960]

@@aeroAdvocate there is nothing standard about an action that potentially ends billions of lives. If you are charged with the responsibility for ending the human race, you confirm the order, even if it kills you.

[@MichaelScherer77]

The captain was right, a message received that cannot be authenticated is not a message.

[@robertrafford6068]

I don't think, from what I've seen, the Captain dismisses views from his XO. The movie sets it up...nicely.

[@vinsanity982]

I think the XO’s point earlier the movie stands anyways. If they rebels had actually launched already, the world is fcked either way. Better wait to confirm the message

[@jameswilliams3581]

It would have been an interesting alternate ending if they filmed something that showed their delay to launch allowing the Russian missiles to destroy a few US cities. Remember, they said they needed to launch to PREVENT the Russians from launching on the USA. I wonder what that court martial would be like? It reminds of scenarios where if you go against orders you better be right. In this case the XO guessed right, but if he had been wrong. Ouch.

[@iainstevenson6658]

What would von Clausewitz have done?

[@JasonBritt-ty6ti]

Every time when you’re people hear this argument it effects the hol ship but there is no easy way to answer this question because it’s no good two answers and arguments on the ship

[@stereotypespecialist]

Float the buoy.

[@tomp8094]

As a former Minuteman II ICBM Crew Member, if you have a valid authenticated Execution Order then you launch your missiles. You don't wait around thinking the National Command Authority might transmit a Termination Message.

[@lampham5525]

When Gene Hackman told you to 'shut the f* up" you better shut up even if you were Denzel Washington

[@pasques]

Spoiler: Its interesting that at the end of the movie, they pointed out that BOTH men failed their jobs. Not the just the captain.

[@thesqueak5474]

what movie is this from?

[@TheNeanderthal051]

Crimson Tide

[@shantoreywilkins651]

#loveit

[@williamfernandini967]

I was a kid watching this and now I'm 40 and at the time I thought captain was right bc he had orders but now as a grown man of experience I say the xo was correct. With something that important u need verification and also the rules are nothing is done unilaterally. They need to be in agreement both of them

[@Moution23]

I heard that a similar event did happen in real life but in a soviet sub.🤷🏾‍♂️

[@SM_19890]

Lmao why the hell didn't you include the speeches that followed!

[@SM_19890]

Lol you cut off the best bit

[@jeffreyrichardson]

steves suggested sting john goffred uss king fifty bucks ask ping

[@marluma]

Any prior, Navy guys care to confirm how often this happens inside of a Naval Carrier?

[@DirtyStinky]

Depends on the relationship between the chain of command. Not everyone likes each other. Typically this kind of childish shit is reserved for E7-E9s, senior enlisted and new officers, but most cases ive seen the CO and XO are usually good friends.

[@theStacyJames]

Name that film 😂

[@oaw972]

I cannot stand people who are just a holes, I'm right and you're wrong, you don't know anything... far too many of these people get put in positions of power. Managers, CEO's etc... Even if you beat the hell out of them they'd never change!

[@jeffreyrichardson]

my love states wi fi hao tu rachel lucas sigh burial george frey

[@davidrendall7195]

Captain's intention is to rise to launch depth and fire the missiles. If he rises to launch depth, he will also rise to a depth where one of his many radios will pick up whatever EAM is being sent. Problem solved. Only if he rises to launch depth and starts preparations to hover and launch, and listen out for the radio, that Russian sub is going to kill him quick. Silly plot line.

[@kubectlgetpo]

I think you missed all the nuances of human character, tough decision making, and not taking into account counter intelligence and counter response from the threat. Also, you might have ignored the protocols that they are under and why and how those have been designed keeping layers of contingency. You should re-watch this movie after reading about game theory, psychology, war protocols and such. I think you will appreciate why that isn't an option.

[@davidrendall7195]

What? @@kubectlgetpo

[@destroyerarmor2846]

Hackman's character was a jerk who wanted to nuke

[@briansheridan5208]

We have here is simply an experience old sub capt and a fancy college grad XO thinking they are both right. Maybe race might be an issue but it is on the capt not the XO. In my POV and my opinion who was right in this situation?......The Xo, He acted right and prevented WW3.

[@shipmate3577]

Gene Hackman did a better job than Al Pacino or Warren Beatty could have... glad they turned down the role.

[@communitydevelopment6739]

A weak-minded captain losing control of his mental faculties. Trying to project his fears on his second-in-command. Thank God for the critical thinker!!! SHALOM I'm Yahudah🕎

[@Ahmed-dj1tq]

Flombo men

[@LTDANMAN44]

i'm not sure a sub captain would follow this course of action.

[@AC-iz7eh]

This situation has been rectified now. Any nuclear launch requires the President's approval and no one else

[@oaw972]

Good thing we don't have a corrupt government with corrupt people getting elected and playing president!

[@jeffreyrichardson]

robert redfords nose steven collins shot at lowes tim brechts wife she chose

[@robynharris7179]

The few instances of Gene Hackman losing his cool is what made this not quite as good a movie as “The Hunt for Red October”. Scott Glenn’s Bart Mancuso was all about implied threat. He knew that he was in command, so there was no need for him to ever speak loudly or be demonstrative. He had the power of life and death over Jack Ryan every instant he was onboard Dallas.

[@nathanieldrake6658]

Bart Mancuso did keep his cool but on the other hand he hadn’t been handed a launch order and subsequently been confronted by an executive officer refusing to verify that order -the fact that Hackman’s captain is on the verge of cracking up in face of having to carry out what might very well be contributing to the end of the world is a subtle aspect to what at first appears to be an over the top performance ..Hackman is so good at portraying well-intentioned men doing wrong while convinced they’re doing right..compared with Scott Glenn’s one note characters who -though apparently level-headed -turn out to be only part of the chain of command, I’ll take the flawed Hackman characters any day.

[@dekonfrost7]

The fact is that a missile boat captain is chosen from a pool of super calm efficient and effective sailors. From the submerged navy which has extremely well documented mental evaluations of every submariner. Thats what adds to the drama. Its letting you know he fucking hates the EXO. You can tell when he says Harvard.

[@tumadoireacht]

gene Hackman is always brilliant. Like Nicholson he sparkles in any and all his films.

[@willg-r3269]

The worst thing about Hackman losing his cool isn't that it makes him a less compelling character, it's that it makes the situation itself less compelling; what might otherwise be a sober disagreement between two level-headed officers over whether to follow protocol to the letter or bend protocol by using your head is instead reduced to “wow, the captain just randomly started screaming obscenities at his XO in front of the entire bridge crew, he's obviously lost his marbles.” Someone once pointed out about “The West Wing” that Aaron Sorkin's dilemma is that he seems to want his core characters to all be the most perfect specimens of intelligence and virtue ever to walk the Earth, but his writing style also depends on constantly depicting arguments where one of them clearly wins and the other clearly loses, so he always ends up having to nerf one of his otherwise brilliant Mary/Marty Sues by having them inexplicably screw up on some minor point so the other character can call them out on it, mic drop, and end scene. This scene feels a bit like that, where the screenwriters have no idea how to bring the argument between Hackman and Denzel to the place they need it to get to unless Hackman goes out of his way to pick up a massive sign that says “look at me, I'm wrong” and wave it right in the audience's faces.

[@willg-r3269]

If anything, the situation would be way more compelling if Denzel was the one who gratuitously lost his cool, so the dilemma would be that the calm and level-headed captain is the one advocating for the totally unnecessary nuclear annihilation of humanity, while his clearly unhinged and insubordinate XO is the one trying to save it.

[@iyerzzzzz]

Hackman won the duel for sure

[@kerrijohnstone7588]

such BS you would NOT launch with a fragmented messaged DIRECTLY after an EAM

[@lonemaus562]

Well the message was clear to launch missiles , in real life if something like that happens you are supposed to follow your last order if u lose communication .. which would have meant to launch the nukes