Confusing Parts of Ice and Fire

Carmine and I discuss confusing parts of Ice and Fire on our first reads. We felt dumb.
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Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil war among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
#asongoficeandfire
#gameofthrones

[@NukeMarine]

I remember being confused reading AGoT because I was spoiled that Ned would die. Get to the end of the chapter where Littlefinger puts the dagger to Ned's throat and I'm thinking he killed Ned. Then he's back in the black cells and I'm super confused so dismissed the spoiled information so his actual death became a surprise again.

[@yeahey5947]

Yea grrm planned that

[@tobilandsfried8083]

Lmao same

[@stefannedelcu1536]

Same

[@L3monsta]

I remember hearing someone getting confused but by the opposite situation because they thought he lived because people keep talking about him so long after his death

[@EvernhamNo9]

Same

[@Longshanks1690]

The fall of Winterfell (Ramsay’s sack) really, REALLY confused me for a while, especially since there are so many more complicating factors like Ramsay pretending to be Reek and the fact we don’t get a clear cut answer as to what exactly transpired in what order until 2 books later really threw me for a loop - arguably we still don’t have a clear answer and most of the piecing together of events comes from fan inference. Even though I’d watched the show and knew that streamlined series of events, I was still thrown for a loop by the way that those events were described in the book.

[@coldwaterburns_]

SAME I just could not figure out wtf Ramsey was talking about when he was telling how he switched places with Reek. I read it like six times and still didn't get it, eventually I resorted to looking up Ramsey's page on the wiki 🥲

[@jewsco]

@@tornado4708winterfell was barely defended as most of the soldiers were off at war , they didn’t expect to be attacked , Theon had knowledge of winterfell as he lived there for years

[@Bonkatsu12]

Well the show is actually far more confusing on the sack of winter fell, since they don’t introduce Ramsay until much later.

[@lovablesnowman]

I think it's just badly written. Flat out. There's far too many fans who just didn't understand what happens. That's just bad writing for me

[@matt_9112]

​@@tornado4708it was only one man in fact. Sir Twenty-Goodmen, who was seen in the show later on, after defecting to Ramsey (that's also how Ramsey took Winterfell).

[@carl-henrikfelth3985]

It took me way longer than it should to realise that "the Usurper" was Robert.

[@faisalkamal4319]

A lie take it out

[@kitkat6959]

The Meereen stuff confused the hell out of me, I was so happy when she finally flew away with Drogon.

[@ExtraVictory]

That bit doesn't actually matter anymore tho so since ASOIAF will never have an ending

[@wingy200]

But it's not over. Ser Barristan is still in that shit hole training knights and shit. I just hope he doesn't get assassinated like in the show. Fuck me dead, I hate the Meereen plot.

[@ExtraVictory]

@@wingy200 lmao interesting choice of words, but to be fair no part of ASOIAF will ever be "over" except maybe Preston fan fiction

[@joeshafer6806]

Skill issue

[@ticket_puncher]

It's not nearly as confusing as the books because all you get is names so you can't associate someone's face and there's like 5× as many characters and plots going on compared to the show

[@Raktasdelespacio]

17:35 There's something endearing about Preston being so bummed when he didn't know exactly how many Blackfyre rebellions there had been.

[@brennanbarnes7628]

For me it's Brienne on her travels with Nimble Dick and confrontation with the Brave Companions, I just felt like I was missing something there. Also the teleporting barge on the Royne.

[@thehobowizard]

Same for Brienne!

[@scummyfish]

Same, had to check the wiki becuse I had forgotten who they were. Plus, I read ASOS in my native language and AFfC in english, and the names had changed in the translation.

[@robertmaybeth3434]

Brienne's a good character I guess since the only true knight in the 7 kingdoms is a woman (her) but her chapters just bring the books to a grinding halt. Nothing important happens during those chapters. I'd much rather read a littlefinger or Varys chapter and so would almost any reader. But that's when I knew GRR had run out of plot during books 1 through 3.

[@puttadonkonit3759]

that's interesting because i understand entirely when people criticize those Brienne chapters for being boring travelogues, but I didn't find them confusing... well, there is the intentionally open question of whether or not the Hound is dead. but other than that from what I remember she's just attempting to find Sansa and not getting much done

[@cerostymc]

@@robertmaybeth3434 "nothing important happens during those chapters". I don't want to start a fight, but lmao did we actually read the same book? There was plenty of of important stuff. Maybe it didn't feel as important to you because the Brienne chapters were more of a self-contained story and therefore didn't seem like they had that much of an influence on other plotlines. But I can assure you that Brienne's story is very important for the broader narrative as it explores the more civil side of the conflicts in Westeros and offers a different perspective from the typical standpoint of the lords and kings who think they're just moving figures on a board.

[@zacharytrainor589]

I first read the books when I was 13. I barely grasped the plots of the point of view chapters, never mind all of the Varys and Littlefinger plots and schemes. Then I started listening to David Brings Light Bearer's and Preston's theories and realized I never truly read the books.

[@Hana9916]

Same!!!

[@blanketsquares7607]

I also read them at 13, I thought mance in winterfell in adwd was just some random bard guy 6 random lady friends

[@zacharytrainor589]

@blanketsquares7607 yes! I thought he was outside the walls!

[@shinrugal]

@@zacharytrainor589 Mance is one of my favorite characters and he shows up when you don't expect (like when he reveals that he was at Winterfell during the feast for Robert)

[@MadIvano]

You mean David Lightbringer?

[@Osirishnp]

It was me! I asked the question in a super chat and he answered it :) my question being part of the podcast makes me happy. Keep up the content you guys are the best.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Actually it was someone else. Some guy named Hanz

[@wyomingptt]

I was confused how even though the series seems to end after A Dance With Dragons, the storylines seem to hint at something more to come. I don't get it.

[@jeffreyjbyron]

This is a really good question. First time reading I was really confused about the House of the Undying. I couldn't tell what was hallucinations and what was physically happening. When drogon burns everything I wasn't sure if that was still a vision or what. Were there actually undying goblins sucking her life juice out? The other thing that is obviously confusing is the sheer number of names and characters. Especially in audiobook (much easier in text), it's like going to a party and meeting 100 people and trying to remember all their names.

[@avonbarksdale2506]

always read like a LSD trip for me lol

[@jeffreyjbyron]

@@avonbarksdale2506 that's essentially what it was, but it was confusing about how it ended, where the actual danger was. She just had a bad trip, lol! Shade of the evening takes a couple trips to get used to. Don't knock it on the first go!

[@alecesne]

You need a trip sitter you can trust, which is the complete opposite of the Tower 😅

[@jeffreyjbyron]

@@alecesne Lol yeah I had a chaperone the first time. Imagine that a dragon is the only thing that can talk you down...

[@pedromenchik1961]

I was so confused about the whole thing with Tyrion and the Shrouded Lord in the Sorrows passing under the bridge twice…like I read it multiple times and still didn’t know what was going on

[@kitkat6959]

I think that one is intentional

[@Kaknamenuss]

everybody is still confused about that lol

[@ElijahMarck]

I thought it supposed to be his uncle who went to Valyria

[@isaacmartinez7557]

@@ElijahMarcktheories

[@wyomingptt]

I can't picture the Shy Maid pole boat in my head. It has a large deck big enough to move around on, a cabin to sleep 5+ people, however in the Sorrows chapter Tyrion says he sees a giant hand in the water that could crush the boat (which I first assumed was a metaphor for a rock structure, but sometimes I think it's more literal), and when each of them are on an edge of the boat (tiller, front, left, and right) each have no issue communicating at a whisper.

[@OfficialArthusamakh]

Aside from the 2000 named characters and not having a clue who every Badgaz mo balsak is in Slaver's bay, the part that confused me the most was Lysa's reveal of her murdering Jon Arryn on Littlefinger's orders. And I had watched seasons 1-4 like 3 times by the time I read the series. I was so drenched in that book that I had entirely forgotten that that had happened and set off the story. At first I was like "wait why would she kill Jon Snow" or "who the fuck was she married to"

[@sprounzit6487]

Yeah even on my read throughs I skip Dany's parts in Slavers Bay, idk wtfs going on and I don't really care

[@stelmaria-mx]

I didn't know what the fuck was going on during the Meereen stuff, only in the audiobook did I truly know what was happening

[@wingy200]

@@stelmaria-mx And all their masks changing, but no one knows what the fuck the masks mean. What the hell was the point? A Dance with Dragons is so much fun when it deals with the North and all their tomfuckery, but the Slaver's Bay stuff is god damned awful. The only good part was when Barristan carves up that pit fighter in the King Consort's chambers after going all gangster on Hizdahr. Otherwise, I'd rather read passage after passage about the texture and viscosity of the putrid yellow-brown water coming out of everyone's butthole than suffer anymore Meereen world building. Kill me.

[@desmondmyers]

Badgaz mo balsak 👌that was nice.

[@MadIvano]

Everytime they referred to The Shavepate or The Perfumed Senechal I couldn’t tell if they were the same guy or teo different people.

[@leadfaun]

The Battle of the Blackwater was super confusing, particularly the arrangement of all the ships. I had to reread that part like 10 times.

[@cesarbayone4305]

Oh my god dude thank you! The whole chain thing was so confusing 😂 I felt so dumb haha the showblack water was better

[@shinrugal]

This part did not confuse me at all. But then again I figured out the battle that George was referencing (it's basically the Battle of Chi Bi during the Three Kingdoms period of China where the superior fleet was tricked by a spy into chaining their ships together and they were then set on fire (thank you Video games and history class in college))

[@twiss9341]

@@shinrugalThat’s awesome thank you

[@facundomedina9762]

And it all becomes even more confusing by having the battle take over 3 different POV's. Like you're reading what's going on in the blackwater with Davos, and the next moment you're having Tyrion talk to their army as if the battle hasn't started yet, and then you get second hand descriptions of it from Lancel during Sansa's POV

[@ickyham2228]

“Promise me, Ned” which I know has still not been clarified in ASOIAF, but it got to a point in the book(fever dream, maybe?) where I was like “Am I missing something, what promise?” I went back and started rereading…

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

I noticed that it's even more than that when I reread. First I was thinking "Is is that protecting the child? or telling the child about her?" Then I reread and see that it's promises, plural. So if there's a promise about the child, what are the other promises?

[@sreyarthakrishna6195]

When I first read GoT, for some reason I thought I had read in the first chapter that "Promise me, Ned" was about Lyanna asking Ned to promise that he'd bury her in the crypts of Winterfell. Like, this wasn't my theory, I just thought the book has actually said that. So I went through the rest of the book confused why Ned was obsessing so much about a promise that he completed years ago.

[@tombullard123]

I think its very spoilerish, wont be revealed till later books. The promise/promises are at least 1) a promise to take her body back to winterfell. 2) promise to protect her child jon snow/raise him as his child

[@Dglenn2185]

Yes, do THAT Carmine. The Dunk and Egg stories are shorter than the main series but equally as good. THEN do the graphic novel, it’s the same but if you’re a super fan like me you enjoy it.

[@scummyfish]

I wouldn't say as good. It really lacks the complexity, world-building and diversity of character and theme of the main series. That being said, I think reading Dunk and Egg is just as enjoyable as reading only one POV character of the main series.

[@Raktasdelespacio]

@@scummyfish Depending on taste or what you want at the time, I'd say that the streamlined narrative makes Dunk and Egg stories better than the main series at times. Shorter, clearer, fewer food descriptions, very satisfying.

[@scummyfish]

@@Raktasdelespacio sure, depends on taste. That was just my personal opinion.

[@wingy200]

@@scummyfish But with Harry Lloyd reading the audio book, it's quite enjoyable. He's an excellent narrator. Well worth an Audible credit.

[@scummyfish]

Carmine was talking about Kings and Generals when saying that the battle of the Whispering Wood and others were confusing, which is ironic given that Kings and Generals made videos about battles in ASOIAF (The Whispering Wood, the Green fork, the Blackwater and Aegon's Conquest.)

[@DeegeCar91]

"Who is the hooded man that calls Theon a turncloak in winterfell?" is is definitely a confusing one that deals with a lot of plot points, but that's a more advanced mystery, not something confusing on first read.

[@constantinekorkousky3363]

The two men ayra overheard talking in the first book confounded me until I finished the series lol. I had to look up who they were (Varys and illeryo)

[@ottolindfors]

Whaaaat, i didnt get that until now.

[@zimmn]

Ref: 19:04 So about the upcoming book series, the title's have been leaked: The Fire and the blood 2 fire 2 blood Fire and blood: Asshai Drift Fire and blood Fire five Fire and blood 6 Blood 7 The fate of the blood Fire and blood presents: dunk and Egg F9 Fire X

[@woodyhorton8537]

Lmfao u just made my day

[@jowston100]

The fucking talking tree at the Black Gate. I remember rereading that passage like, 10 times and still didn't get it.

[@elijahrodriguez647]

isnt the explanation for that just magic? i didnt give it a second thought.

[@chadsummerchild1120]

I remember being confused that Theon was Reek my first read.

[@TBIRD722000]

To be fair I think we were all meant to be confused about that. It was intentionally written to be a bit of a sad/shocking reveal

[@bananaforscale1283]

There were like 3 Reeks. That was cofusing

[@kitkat6959]

For me it was Ramsay being Reek at first. Totally missed it.

[@joeyeardley4002]

I was confused that Eddard was Ned

[@michals5873]

@@joeyeardley4002:D

[@pedromenchik1961]

Also: Quentyn’s boat, fAegon’s boat, Victarion’s boat, all going to the same place and full of new characters

[@YarPirates-vy7iv]

The Brave Companions thing confused me too it was out of nowhere, and the only explanation was 'they switched sides'.

[@pieceofgosa]

The Brave companions immediately start shit with Lorch's garrison at Harrenhal & then they end up in a big fight with the Lannister men. Harys Swift's squire gets killed & two Brave Companions end up getting hanged for it. There's your explanation.

[@YarPirates-vy7iv]

@@pieceofgosaI guess there are people in the world who would commit treason and endanger their lives and everything they've built because their employees got into a scuffle with a competitor. Yeah, there is an explanation in the story. It's not really satisfying or well thought out as currently presented I think.

[@jones877]

​@@YarPirates-vy7ivmercenaries switch sides all the time

[@Caramelo23606]

They mercenaries, they are in it for the money simple as, maybe Roose's cold, alien, ruthless calculation impressed them more than Tywin's insecure ruthless calculation. Also, even if Tywin is the master of monsters, Roose vampire persona fits better with their group and their haunted castle and for sure they took that into account.

[@InvaderZed]

Didn't they majorly fuck up in harrenhal and went to the next meal ticket they could get.

[@sassquatch212]

Just about to start ASOS, so far the only thing that’s confused me was the Catlyn whispering wood chapter. The way it’s structured and worded just threw me as to what’s happening now and what’s being remembered.

[@TumzFestivalYT]

Awarding someone ownership of Harrenhal is just a friendly, common phrase in Westeros that a lot of people use when saying their goodbyes to someone.

[@justdirt]

Having not seen the show, reading the first book, a lot was confusing. George does not hold your hand at all. Learning dozens of characters' names while jumping from pov to pov was a nightmare. The characters bring up so many events and drop names so often in the beginning. It's like being thrown into the deep end and having to learn to swim. By the time I understood the general geography and characters, it made a lot more sense. I listened to the books so I didn't have a map. It wasn't until I was halfway through SoS that I decided to look up a map. From then on, I would check the interactive map whenever I completed a handful of chapters or finished a book.

[@thehobowizard]

Renly’s fucking ghost confused the shit out of me

[@KingOfWinter]

I love these types of discussions you guys do. It’s a fun topic that lets you get down into the lore a little but keeps everything cohesive. The only thing it is missing is Trey the explainer.

[@pedromenchik1961]

Original Reek, Ramsay as Reek, Theon as the new Reek…so confusing on the 1st read

[@Ancor_Vantian]

If I remember correctly, one of the many things that confused was when I read Tywin was signing a pardon for Robb's wife's family. I was like "but they of all people? aren't they traitors to your eyes?" Good times.

[@meganadams7274]

Not confused so much to say, but I read the books just before Season 4 came out and despite Ser Barristan Selmy being insta-revealed to Dany like 2 years ago I still had no idea who Artisan Whitebeard was in the books and was totally shocked when they revealed it was him the whole time. I thought he was just an extra character and Selmy was going to turn up any moment

[@thelastbrickbender2139]

When watching season 1 for the first time, I completely missed Theon being a Greyjoy not just some guy in the stark household and Catelyn hating Jon

[@lodovicoodak9401]

I challenge anyone to have a more embarrassing story than mine. Agot, first time reading it, 20 odds years ago. I was confused between the Mormonts, Jeor and Jorah. I was so confused that I thought they were the same character, and that the Dany story and the rest of the book was on different timelines ( no sci-fi but simply happening afterwards/ before). Yeah.

[@MegaMacReal]

I thought Drogon, Arya, Hot Pie, and bowls of brown were the same character!

[@barrry9]

Now I'm convinced Preston is going to bring lady Whent back out of nowhere for a revenge spree in the fanfic

[@SlipperyPeteClassic]

I was confused about a lot of the same stuff. It blew me away the 2nd time I read them when anything that confused me before was suddenly perfectly clear and how well put together the books are for the most part.

[@IntermissionForBunny]

I still don't understand what was going on with Old-Reek vs Ramsay-Reek vs Theon-Reek. It's like a fever dream

[@Galvatronover]

Old reek was some bloke Ramsay dad brought into take care of him as a child Ramsay was fond of him so he brought in Theon to replace the old one

[@Luuuna]

I couldn't remember the names of most of the minor characters, especially in Stannis's group - like I knew Davos, Mel, Shireen, Selyse, Stannis himself, and I knew there were two Florent blokes (couldn't tell them apart though), but beyond that? No idea Also I completey missed that the battle of Oxcross, the battle of Duskendale, and the battle of the Fords/ Stone Mill even happened - each time they were brought up, my brain went "I probably should know what they're talking about here, given the book isn't explaining... oh well!" and forget, and move on Oh, also the whole thing with Arya rescuing the prisoners at Harrenhal, and then it turns out they were never in danger in the first place - like, I know that's part of the whol brave companions thing, but it took me several re-reads to get that bit specifically

[@Mj_Jetson]

For the longest time, I thought Salladhor Saan and Aurane Waters were the same person. And I don't mean Salla has a secret identity as Aurane or anything like that... I thought they were the exact same character with the exact same name. Whenever I read "Salladhor Saan", I thought "oh right - that's the name of the pirate dude." and I thought the same for Aurane. No idea why it took me so long to realize that they were two separate names.

[@snowpocalypse69]

This is like how I was with Moat Cailin and Greywater Watch, I would read either of them and be like oh yeah that's where the Reeds are from

[@yhurimach]

In retrospect, I think the scene of the incident with Bran was meant to showcase how to a little kid a warrior is something else in this world. Had he been in his armor, with his sigil, colors and all, Bran would've known it was him. With only his robes, he didn't recognize him. And it would also mean that even if they allowed Bran to get out, he wouldn't be able to tell it was Cersei and Jaime in the tower. Maybe he didn't even understand what was happening at all, so, maybe, he wouldn't even mention it to anybody. This would mean that everything could've been avoided, had Jaime and Cersei been better people.

[@Longshanks1690]

Pretty much the entire Meereen plot in ADWD also not just confused me but flew me by. Idk about anyone else but for the first four books and most of ADWD, I can recall the events that happened in a general sense. But without looking it up, I cannot remember for the life of me things like the names of faction leaders or the events of that story. I remember every one of the other cities is outraged at her, no one knows who the harpy is, she’s being pressured to marry and reopen the pits and LocustGate. The same with Tyrion, there’s just so much needless padding in that book that I just do not remember off the top of my head when I remember the antler men from ACOK even though they’re not that relevant in the long term. And Jon usually gets joined in this category but I actually remember more of his story, not everything but more than Dany and Tyrion for sure. And because so much of Dany’s story is wrapped up in needing to understand the political subtleties and complicated nuances of life in Meereen, it makes it so much worse when it is all so tediously confusing and boring. I often found myself skimming those chapters more often than not, unless it was Dany thinking about her place in the world which was interesting. But the overall Meereen plot is one of the most needlessly complicated things in the series that to this day I don’t feel confident talking about as I’m sure I’ll get details wrong because of that lmao.

[@robertmaybeth3434]

All the Mereen chapters, plus Brienne's chapters, do seem like filler. And mostly an after-thought.

[@lovablesnowman]

It's because GRRM always intended to do the 5 year time skip after a Clash of Kings. It's why half the characters dissappear in A Feast for Crows.

[@corbinskywalker]

GRRM PLANNED IT ALL

[@maxmercer1931]

This

[@matt_9112]

One might think if there was a plan, the series would be finished by now. I'd rather guess GRRM is just as confused as we are when trying to make sense of stuff like the Meerenese knot (without it being too straight forward, can't have that) or making sense of what really happened at the Tower of Joy.

[@maxmercer1931]

@@matt_9112 it should be interesting to see how Preston fleshes out what happened at the Tower of Joy. And if GRRM ever releases TWoW, compare the two. Depending, of course, if GRRM ever revisits the Tower of Joy

[@whaddup691]

And will finish none of it. Also I don’t think he planned any of it

[@DzzO]

I remember going back a couple of pages trying to figure out the difference between the others and the wights.

[@k45207]

6:42 yeah that YT channel helped me a lot with some of the battles they do a great job of showing a bird eye view of these battle. Like when stanis attacks kings landing I didn’t understand they were sailing up a river that was then cut off by Tyrion’s chain.

[@SHARKVADERS]

PJ IS BACK FOMOS

[@look4lec]

In D&E I didn't ever realize Dunk *may not have been* wasn't knighted. I argued with my brother about this. I still think Dunk was knighted by Ser Arlan of Pennytree and is just a goofy tall dude with impostor syndrome.

[@danieldiaz7065]

He calls himself a liar all the time. It’s pretty clear Arlan didn’t knight him. Dude also got super sick and died suddenly, he probably wasn’t thinking about knighting his squire

[@muesliman100]

He mostly calls himself dumb, not per se a liar though, right?

[@danieldiaz7065]

@@muesliman100 he does call himself dumb a lot, but here’s a quote from the hedge knight “He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it.”

[@JenniHayward]

Most confusion = Jojen paste. I've reread that a dozen times and I still don't see where Jojen actually dies.

[@mikechico77]

It's just that "weirwood" paste they give bran and he thinks that it reminds him of blood,and maybe the overall eerie tone of the chapter that makes everyone say that it was jojen. It's certainly not a fact,Meera is still there, you'd think she might have something to say about her brother being chopped up. As far as I know, it's not set in stone, but honestly, it's probably true

[@allthe1]

What convinced me to buy Elden Ring specifically was the fact that GRRM contributed to the lore and I wasn't disapointed, especially in terms of confusion

[@MWMTEE]

And the names all sounding the same lol

[@pedrojorge1912]

For me the most confusing thing was picturing the rebellion and pre-book recent events. The great houses got really connected through marriages right before the rebellion, and we have mentions of the past events all the time, so it's a lot of information to puzzle and get the whole picture of who is who and why the Realm is as it is.

[@keirangrant1607]

I didnt start reading the books until after season 6 or 7, and then I needed to start watching Preston's videos before I really understood what was going on.

[@jones877]

GRRM should just plan out all the battles in medieval total war, and then plan out all the intrigues in ck2. Fastest way to finish writing the books

[@Vmac1394]

"And all of the men following Robb Stark died in a giant manure exposition."

[@sirlucaofhousebrasi1482]

I think it's easy to forget that alot of us read the books after having seen the show. I first read GOT after season 3. Going into this world with absolutely no context must have been crazy confusing.

[@Lalaithlen]

I can't remember specific confusions but hearing you speak about the battles memories come about not understanding what happened and just brushing it out and pushing forward. Also everytime people traveled it confused me. Everytime there was a big action scene I had to reread it a couple of times.

[@neryskkiran1820]

The travelling was alot less confusing for me after I started pulling a map up online to track the travels.

[@Foster-kj3rv]

the audio book and the comics for the dunc n eggs stories are both excellent. highly recommend doing em both.

[@sebastiancompton2511]

For me it was definitely Robb’s army movement and strategy. I kept waiting for us get a POV battle where we would get more details, but it never came

[@elinakeranen4499]

Brave companions didn't confuse me. They don't need to be good just because they are on the good guys side. Sellswords are independent actors and they do whatever is beneficial to them. I think it was good example when at one point they said they went around asking villages who are Lannister's men and when they switched sides they went back to kill everyone who gave it them information. And he thought it was hilarious. Kings and lords use whoever is available and they'll overlook unknowingly or begrudgingly whatever cruelties.

[@michaeljsnappers]

The only thing in aSoS I found confusing was Arya's Nymeria dream with Catelyn's body post red wedding. I didn't catch on to Lady stoneheart until the epilogue

[@woodyhorton8537]

Speaking of bonifer hasty and his holy hundred I wonder how that will play out considering the high sparrow and other holy men are now armed and taking over

[@DibsEquipped]

Glad I wasn't the only one confused.

[@stefanfilipovits21]

It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize who Abel & The Washerwomen were. Same with “the bad cat’s” previous owner.

[@PsilocybeJedi]

I didn't even find out until me and my buddy did a buddy read, ON ACID, finishing the final chapters in Dance with Dragons, Jon's stabbing made us have to put it down haha. But then my friend told me Abel was Mance and we got super hyped and picked it back up and finished it haha

[@stefanfilipovits21]

@@PsilocybeJedi that whole murder mystery in winterfell is so damn interesting. The character work is great and it’s written to keep the reader on the backfoot the entire time.

[@maxolivermurray]

Who was the bad cats previous owner?

[@stefanfilipovits21]

@@maxolivermurray Rhaegar’s daughter princess Rhaenys.

[@maxolivermurray]

@@stefanfilipovits21 oh shit! You’re right. There are so many damn little details in ASOIAF. Tywin being the Hand who visited Chatayas brothel via the tunnel from the tower of the Hand is one that I thought was insane.

[@daviejohnstone12]

For me the ghost in winterfell is quite a bit to take in with all the freys and the wildlings present then the whole manderly situation and from theons pov it gets so confusing i read it 3 times the first time i read the book. Probably my favourite chapter tho.

[@OneOnOne1162]

8:37 - Which is really not that surprising when you know what George's original intention was. Originally George wanted "A Game of Thrones" to cover a relatively long period of time. We all know about the time jump (the 5 year gap) that was scrapped between "A Storm of Swords" and the original "A Dance with Dragons." But before the 5 year gap even existed George originally wanted the story to cover those 5 years and have the kids grow up in them. But then he realized the story wasn't covering as much time as he wanted and he came up with the 5 year gap. I would guess that back when Dany's chapters were moving fast George still thought he could pull off telling the 5 years across his story. But by the time we get to the Mirri chapters George had already settled on the idea that he couldn't do that and needed the 5 year gap and so he was able to slow down the story.

[@maxliu6609]

I had no idea who reek or Ramsay was for the longest time since they pulled 2 switcheroos (once when Ramsay got captured, and once when ramsay took winterfell. Also, who was brienne fighting when she went on that trip with Clarence Mudd and the squishers? I kept thinking it was the brave companions but that didn't make any sense.

[@joefo458]

Worst part for me was that the audiobooks are amazing (except some inconsistent pronunciations of names) but the iTunes download FOR YEARS was messing up and randomly dropping some chapters of the later books, and being so confused because I had missed like Reek 1 and the Griffin Reborn and without those you are LOST. Theon has been gone for 2+ books and suddenly he’s alive and walking up to Moat Cailin. Or you know, JonCon has chatted up the Golden Company and then you hear about them again only in Kevan’s epilogue. So bad. And in the iTunes comments you’d see literally years of comments about this (and people were dropping $50 for them) and Apple was doing nothing. I paid for one of the books twice after deleting and downloading again and again wasn’t fixing it. No use.

[@johnmurdoch8534]

One of the most confhsing things in book is how robert baratheon considers making jaime lannister lord of the vale as one point. Perhaps he didnt have the groundwork laid out for what the kingsguard was about or how this would affect family politics.

[@JaceWind]

I still have no idea why that was even brought up. He has plenty of lesser lords in the Vale already that could rule as regent until Robin comes of age. Why in the hell he would ever name Jaime Lannister, the kingslayer, sworn brother of the kingsguard to that position makes no sense to me.

[@johnmurdoch8534]

@@JaceWind i think its just that george hadbt fully fleshed out the world at that point. I mean what he did was impressive but i imagine this wouldnt have happened if george had hindsight here

[@irusia1574]

Was he talking about making Jaime the lord of the Vale though? Because if I remember correctly he said was talking about making him the Warden of the East and those things probably aren't the same

[@bajes328]

The series should be renamed "Who the fuck is that and what is going on ?"

[@cjinpa5713]

I was confused by the map at the beginning of the show which is how I ended up finding all the KZbin channels looking for an above view 😆. Then down the rabbit hole I went

[@chriscueva1866]

The most confusing thing in any of the books for me was everything happening in Mereen during Dance. I was fucking lost on my first read.

[@hotcoldman]

My three biggest confusions on my first read 1. What was happening in the Dorne chapters in Feast, who everyone was and where were they 2. Who the hell anyone was in Mereen in Dance, all the names blended together 3. For some reason my brain kept placing Kings Landing on the map where Casterly Rock is, so I kept having misconceptions about the tactics and progress of the war. I think in that case it also flipped Dragonstone to being on the west coast.

[@Spitfyre1011]

I remember being very confused when I first learned that people think Jon is Rhaegars son. I totally missed the clues

[@JDBaldman]

Oof. The reek reveal at winter fell really confused me. Had no idea what was going on first time.

[@charlesjermyn5001]

Oh come on "I didn't know it was Jammie", it's literrally shown in the next chapter, exposed by Tyrion, like how long he needed to understand that it was Voldemort who killed Harry's parents XD But that's true than some parts are complex... Ho, by the way, King and General did cover some fantasy battle including some from ASoIaF (like Blackwater's bay) you may check that out.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

Ned’s not really dead, he’s living his best second life inside “broken man” Illyn Payne. Illyn has been rehilted with a skull like Ice has been.

[@YarPirates-vy7iv]

Finally, a new theory! I like it. Do you think he'll hook up with Lady Stoneheart and start a little zombie family?

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@YarPirates-vy7iv opposite. Second piece of information you need: Rob didn’t die. “Pale pink cloaked man” Ramsey didn’t stab him in the heart (future “Stoneheart” Cat doesn’t “know where the heart is”; also people stabbed in the don’t stumble around talking to die in his mother’s arms, GRRM is weaponizing tropes against us.) Instead, Ramsey bled out Rob, placed Greywind head over Rob’s head (“eye’s in the dark” are looking out Greywind’s maw in Daenerys’ vision), and replaced Rob with Manderley’s son’s decapitated body. Rob is now a “Reek(4)” (“Reek you have two heads”) along with Theon Reek(3) and can only be distinguished by their finger count on each hand, both seven total. Theon has two on his bow firing hand five on the off hand and CAN’T hold a knife (cleared of the murder); Rob has three and four (probably) and CAN hold a sword (Moat Cailin killing of the leader). “Do those fools really think you were Greyjoy prince?” was directed at the reader though the fourth wall. Anyway, Cat will try to kill Theon for Bran’s and Rickon’s “murder”, she will kill Rob instead grabbing the wrong Reek. She won’t realize her mistake killing her “heir/hair” until he dies commenting on her hair again as he did during his first “death”. By then the wolf/dog pack will be around and Rob (and future Rickon) will live a second life in there. Ned the “executioner” who “should be the one who swings the sword” will find Stoneheart and kill her for Rob’s death. Ayra will kill “Illyn Payne” for her mother’s murder, not realizing it’s Ned until it’s too late.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@YarPirates-vy7iv note: my quotes are remembered badly, but close.

[@_addison4772]

I’m still confused what is going on in Meereen, who, what side, locust… so confusing but I guess that’s part of the point it’s a mess

[@Clee882]

Aemon the Dragonknight confused me because I thought it was a title, not a nickname. I kept wondering who Robert's Stagknight was, and if the position was supposed to be head of kingsguard or general of the army or what.

[@rpproductions6241]

I really enjoy these discussions between you two. I was watching one yesterday that had just been posted that day and I got kicked off of it and can't find the video now??

[@JoniukasVader]

Back are we and

[@KingOfWinter]

Theon being reek confused me as well as Ramsey’s entrance into the story. I legit thought Ramsey was Reek pretending to be Ramsey who really died at the gates of Winterfell and he took Theon and made him his Reek because now he could be the bully for once and maybe as a highborn shield Incase someone realized he wasn’t Ramsey lol. It wasn’t until after the Red Wedding and Roose returning to the North and seeing Ramsey and not immediately killing him as a imposter that I realized it was the real Ramsey lol. And still part of me thinks Roose wouldn’t care if it was Reek and not his son as long as it benefited him lol

[@darhaha3391]

I didn't find any of these things you guys mentioned to be confusing... I would just find it hard to focus on Dany's crazy dreams and visions lol had to read those a few times 😂

[@chriscueva1866]

Carmine never read Dunk and Egg? What a casual.

[@ryasa777]

Counting the War of the Ninepenny Kings as the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion is cool because it would mean the whole FAegon situation would be the 6th and he’d also be King Aegon VI

[@mateuszkowalczyk8982]

Drinking game - shot of whisky everytime Preston says "like"

[@HelFrostKara]

Well the mystery is part of the charm, I feel. Everyone is an un reliable narrator, subject to their own biases and understanding of things so they may not interpret things they see in the same ways. Understandable that Preston was confused by who pushed Bran out the window. Bran being a young kid had limited knowledge at the time. Reminds me, that I was confused by who Arya saw having a secret meeting in the first book (Varys and Illyrio meeting by the dragon bones). Arya didn't recognise them, and it is so early on that I had no idea lol.

[@yunpeach503]

big and little walder

[@Mj_Jetson]

I remember each time I finished a book (excluding AGoT), I'd stare blankly at the ceiling for a bit, trying to remember how much of the plot had taken place in the book I'd just finished, versus the one before it. Like, when I finished AFfC, I sat there thinking "how many Jon chapters were here? There was at least one or two, at the beginning of the book... weren't there? Was the kingsmoot in this book or the previous one... I think the ironborn PoVs were introduced here, but didn't Aeron call the kingsmoot before the Red Wedding, cuz I remember Robb finding out about Balon's death, I think? Did the Red Wedding happen in this book? I'm pretty sure that was last book, but I can't remember... And who were those Dornish PoVs who were introduced this book? Arianne and Doran, right?" It was a real difficulty to untangle it all in my mind.

[@perjulianlundbergtande8956]

Was super confused whether Duncan the Tall was knighted or not, I'm still not sure actually haha

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

It's meant to be ambiguous, the implication is that he's probably lying and was never actually knighted.

[@Caramelo23606]

He also has quite a few bastards for a Knight of the Kingsguard but it doesn't matter because he does things his own way and his heart is that of a Knight, the same with his descendants who are also not annointed knights (Brienne and Walder)

[@novedad4468]

Wait, Walder? I knew about Brienne, but who is this Walder, descendant of ser Duncan the tall? If you are referring to Hodor because that was his actual name, I can't remember it tbh.

[@samtyler3952]

I can’t remember who’s chapter, but one of the times Stannis is getting introduced and it brings up Robert and Renly in a way that makes it seem like Stannis is older than Robert as well as Renly.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Stannis *feels* older with how grumpy he is

[@samtyler3952]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview yeah it would’ve been super interesting to see what would’ve happened if the Baratheon boys were born in a different order. If renly was older than Stannis would’ve likely followed renly after Robert died .

[@ThomasMiddlehurs1984]

Yeah, I thought that, too. Honestly, if it wasn't for the TV show I would have still assumed that.

[@Mj_Jetson]

I was pretty confused by the Meereenese stuff... when I first read Daenerys VI ASoS (her first chapter in Meereen), all I really cared about was finding out how she took the city, so I skimmed over all the character introductions for the new Meereenese characters... plus I had the entirety of AFfC to forget about all the Meereenese stuff, so that didn't help.

[@neryskkiran1820]

Same

[@morning91]

It really confused me when Bran see's a dragon when in his wolf at Winterfell when emerging from the crypt. I still dont get what its meant to be.

[@99rei99]

I didn’t realize who Roose Bolton was and that he’d betrayed Rob at the red wedding

[@jackreacher7495]

First time reading, I completely missed the fact that Jon was getting killed in his final chapter of ADWD. At the time, I was almost done, and I was eager to finish it, so I was consuming the paragraphs like crazy. So, you can imagine how Jon's death appears in a mild speed-read, where he's clearly getting attacked but it looks like the assassins run away as "Ghost," is the last action Jon takes in my mind. So, in my mind, Jon was saved but we were left on a cliffhanger as to who. I didn't realize he'd completely died until I went on the subreddit right after lol

[@RLucas3000]

Dunk n Egg is Awesome!

[@ivello]

The most confusion i remember having when 1st reading the books was about the "day of his name" thing, i had never seen this expression anywhere and i straight up thought there was a day named Jon kkkkkk

[@Galvatronover]

I’m good at inferring things so I got it immediately

[@rei2684]

Omg with Jamie I was confused too don't be ashamed of it 😭😭

[@jxun4l3ht10]

On my first read I was very confused between the Stark siblings, Theon, Jon, who's the bastard and who's the hostage.

[@Mj_Jetson]

Dunno why, but I get all the northern Houses mixed up. All the other regions of Westeros I've got a pretty good grasp of what's going on, but not the north. 🤷‍♀

[@overlookers]

George RR Martin making a coherent narrative writting only in first person challenge (impossible)

[@alialmuhanna4938]

15:10 Are we to understand that you no longer believe that the Brave Companions are tied to the Martells ?

[@jdwest34]

Thanks

[@scottdaigle]

Dunk and egg is mandatory for a podcast host

[@barcelomrozovic1625]

Arya taking an axe to the head confused the bajesus out of me. Even knowing she won't die didn't make it sny better