The Early Drafts of A Storm of Swords from 1999

Carmine and I go over gsteff's research on early drafts of A Storm of Swords from 1999, compared to the published version in 2000. Green Men, the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lady Stroneheart
gsteff's original reddit post:
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Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil war among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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#gameofthrones

[@ND88229]

Maybe the reason Ben stopped being playful was because the majority of his family was killed lol

[@jonttopia]

He has also spent years ranging beyond the wall, which is very harsh and probably killed whatever playful innocence he had left.

[@manband20]

Yeah he probably lost any sense of innocence he had left after that.

[@jonttopia]

​@@Jotariyeah, that too. But that is still during some festivities with his nephew, you'd think he'd relax and be more playful in that situation if any.

[@derekfurst6233]

​@@Jotari good point

[@therealmarkg171]

That's a mistake. Ben is certainly still very playful in the published story. He's described as always having a hint of laughter in his eyes and being genial by Jon, is the one who's warm and welcoming to Jon before and during the feast while everybody else ignored him (until their disagreement over joining the Watch), purposefully makes the trip to the Wall uncomfortable for Tyrion because he hates Lannisters, eats and drinks with his men, laughs at his rangers bawdy songs, etc. He's still very much playful. Jon later notices a more serious Benjen after Benjen returns to his duties and Jon becomes an official recruit that Ben can't be "Uncle Benjen" to any longer. Which uh yeah? That's what Benjen tried to warn Jon about. "Uncle Benjen" is actually "First Ranger Benjen". They're not family anymore, and that's not changing until Jon becomes a fellow brother to him. Again, exactly what Benjen himself told Jon.

[@konstantinboev7018]

i remmember when we were preping for winter...

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

Fun fact: Preston's first Prepping for Winter video came out closer to the release of Dance (6 years) than to the present day (almost 7 years).

[@ormurin6441]

Sandor tearful confession in the draft is beautiful and I'm glad it was cut. It gives his confession in the published book a new dimension -yes, he is trying to provoke arya into killing him by mentioning micah, but part of him also needs to honestly confess his crimes. The confession wasn't scrapped it just became more subtle. Almost all the changes from the drafts to the published books improve the story

[@joefo458]

💯

[@emarti3853]

Beric was resurrected by Thoros of Myr and the Kiss of Life each time he died. It worked every single time. Thoros refused to give Catelyn the Kiss, so Beric gave it himself.

[@nikharagrawal5808]

Tywin could still expect Jeyne (even if not her family) to enter Robb's camp and become their mole to help them stay one step ahead, even if Robb doesn't marry her. He could still expect Robb to reveal delicate plans in bed to his girlfriend as an overburdened teenager surrounded by older lords.

[@berlineczka]

Also, he could be already in talks with the Freys. After all, his bride-to-be was still at the Twins and far away from him. He would sire no pups as long as the Freys do not let him near her to actually marry and bed her. Jeyne could have been another layer to the skim, to control any possible bastard children of Rob.

[@wormeatensons]

In "Guardians", the seawater on the planet Namor is described as green, so in that particular instance I think that "green dreams" refers to the thoughts of a hive mind that spends eternity in shallow green water. "Green dreams" in asoiaf are weird because they're sort of related to the children of the forest, green eyes, greenseers, etc. and it's hard to discern what's "green" about them.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

Interesting. I had forgotten that aspect. I guess the original "green dreams" made a little more sense than the Ice and Fire ones.

[@ormurin6441]

Nice catch!

[@jsull81]

​@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin what if the theory that the weirwoods we know have been corrupted in some way is true & the weirwoods on the Isle of faces actually have green leaves because they're a part of a separate, or at least, uncorrupted network? It would also explain why the green men (and I'm guessing greenseers) are so protective of the island & why it's so sacred

[@jsull81]

@@Jotari the theory has been around for a while, but there's some new evidence in the 2024 official asoiaf calendar that just came out. (which supposedly George commissions all of the art for) It has a peculiar scene of Rhaegar & Lyanna hanging out on a giant weirwood. Or at least it's a giant tree with a face carved into it, but it isn't pale white & the leaves are actually green! If you just type in rhaegar, lyanna & new calendar, it should pop right up I never paid much attention to the calendars before, but apparently all the scenes so far have depicted actual events and/or places from the series. So David Lightbringer & others are guessing this is supposed to be the Isle of faces, probably right after or before they got married. The only real question is why isn't the tree pale white with blood red leaves? And the face carved into it doesn't look as tortured as they normally do, either Whatever the case, it's an interesting idea and I'd love to hear PJ's thoughts on it

[@SamsonUno]

It's drafty in here

[@nyet_maker7948]

😮‍💨

[@cameronjadewallace]

Clever

[@Fnidner]

ea rly?

[@tomkrajewski6209]

Hodor.

[@trippinzombiez]

*grooooan*

[@KaritKtana]

So Preston has not been aware of the kerfuffle caused by the new *asoiaf calendar art* released recently?? It shows Rhaegar and Lyanna on the Isle of Faces, where the WWs are GREEN. Because that art is official and directed by GRRM, it's as good as canon. It serves as more confirmation that WWs as we know them now are kind of a corrupted or deformed version of the original trees, as they still are on the Isle. It could be that the faces on those trees are made by people ACTUALLY melding with the trees through millennia, and maybe thry are able to talk. They could BE the Green Men. The carved, bleeding, tortured faces of WWs are and always should have been alarming.

[@doghat1619]

Do you seriously think GRRM spent more than an hour of his life thinking about art for a calender?

[@makimasbrat5508]

​@@doghat1619possibly, he loves good non-got professional art

[@makimasbrat5508]

Can you provide a link

[@jbailey5061]

The original red wedding being planned may simply have been the one between Robb and the Frey girl.... The Westerlings may have simply been one of many seeds planted by a Tywin hedging his bets. Even then it doesn't have to be a case of Walder, Roose, and Tywin conspiring early. Communication could opened up between them early in the war with Roose waiting for a chance to grab power in the North, even if he stayed aligned with Robb, and Walder playing both sides.

[@mr_yoru5834]

Simply put, GRRM wrote the first books so fast because he knew way more about that part of the story and its direction than the rest.

[@colincnote2120]

He had everything lined up for the 5 year time skip realized everything really wasn't lined up panicked and hasn't figured out how to square the circle on much since.

[@Longshanks1690]

I think the Red Wedding issue could be easily resolved if you gave Walder Frey a reason to consider betraying Robb regardless of Robb’s personal actions, and the Jeyne marriage was what put him over the edge. Like saying early on in the story, he’s conversing with Tywin and Roose about what he has to gain should he betray the Starks for them, but he’s unsure about whether what they can give him is worth being the father in law of a King, until that’s taken away from him and he’s sure. It completely makes sense Tywin would try to worm his way out of a war by any means, it makes sense Walder would consider betraying Robb and it makes sense that Robb’s stupidity makes the situation easy for them. It also means you can have Tywin’s comment about quills and ravens without it being directly related to the plans already being underway but trying to get the Freys to agree. But Tywin arranging a situation with the Westerlings whereby they somehow get their daughter knocked up by, and then married to, the enemy King is ridiculously implausible. That being a wildcard no one expected but plays right into Tywin’s hands and a plan he was already trying to get underway makes much more sense.

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

Agreed, the Westerling scheme was seperate from Tywin, he just jumped at it. Although they may be playing both sides, Catelyn describes Jeyne different to how Jaime does, specifically her hips which means maybe the real Jeyne is someplace else in AFFC. Also, we know from Tyrion that Tywin betrothed Joy to one a Frey bastard, but then Sybelle Westerling says that Joy is to wed one of her kids? The Westerlings are planning something.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@CheeseCrumbs00 The hips comment was confirmed by George to just be a fuckup on his part with no actual relevance to the story, he just used the wrong description of her hips in AFFC.

[@thomnelligan247]

I also took it that the Red Wedding was designed for Robb's wedding to Rosilin Frey, and Tywin conspiring with the Westerling/Spicers (who grey wind always growled at) was to get Robb to sleep with Jayne for the motivation to have Walder call for the wedding to happen now for his continued support. Robb marrying Jayne was the spanner they had to pivot from because the wedding was no longer occurring, hence the anger and rushing and agreeance for Rosilin to marry Edmure. They needed a wedding with Robb in attendance.

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

@@Longshanks1690 Ffs, ive been thinking about that for ages

[@RoastedToasted0]

‘The Others’ is a far better name than ‘White Walkers’ that just makes them sound like zombies

[@BaalFridge]

One is eldritch and philosophical, the other sounds like another Walking Dead spinoff. 😂

[@RoastedToasted0]

@@BaalFridge exactly! I’m glad there are others that think the same 😂

[@Conradh13]

I assume they changed it because the main antagonists of Lost (which ended the year before GoT premiered) were also called 'The Others' and were also a mysterious, largely unseen group, who's eventual appearance was a major part of the early seasons and tied into the mythos of the show

[@RoastedToasted0]

@@Conradh13 that’s interesting, I wasn’t aware

[@lokidoki525]

I prefere the white walkers

[@theodorejames8285]

Lady Stoneheart isn’t thematically connected to Arya? You’re kidding. Lady S is the horrifying physical embodiment of vengeance. Arya’s entire story is about how dedicating your life to revenge will lead to you losing yourself. Realizing that Lady S is evil, and then killing her, would be Arya thematically killing the spirit of vengeance within herself. It would be a satisfying end to her arc. I mean, we all agree that Arya will learn that revenge is self destructive and wrong at some point, right? What’s the alternative? She becomes a super rad assassin, finishes her ‘kill list’ and learns that revenge is actually awesome and worthwhile? Her arc is that violence is the answer all along? No chance. Now, of course, she could learn that lesson many different ways, but confronting Lady S is the one that makes the most sense to me.

[@joefo458]

Also, Faceless Men see death as natural and a mercy. Undead zombies should be a valid, desirable (if not expenses-covering) target.

[@roxannepolice1584]

Never underestimate Gilly's relatives' capacity to defy time and biology 🙃

[@carter9449]

The thing with Tywin/Westerlings getting Rob to marry Jeyne, it could have easily been a half court shot, Tywin is not any worse off if Rob doesn't marry her he just needs to take every chance he can to break up the alliance with the Freys. Even just him sleeping with her could piss off the freys a bit

[@Longshanks1690]

I would agree with you if Tywin made it sound like he had a dozen different plans in the works trying to end the war quickly, like he was just throwing anything at the wall to see what stuck out of desperation. I could buy that. But the way he talks in draft and published versions makes it sound like it was his one and only master plan that he was 100% sure would work. 😂 So no, it wasn’t that he was hoping this might work, he had put all his eggs in the Jeyne basket- pun unintentional - and was absolutely confident this was gonna work, no doubts about it. That’s what’s unrealistic about it. 😅

[@carter9449]

@@Longshanks1690 You sound a lot smarter if you pretend the one that did work was your master plan all along

[@coreyander286]

Kind of similar to the Lannisters keeping Robert drunk on his boar hunts.

[@joefo458]

@Longshanks1690, yes, the draft one definitely sounds that way. But I think the published one is just fine and maybe Preston is assuming it’s more boastful than it actually is. My big strategy vs. This one plan here only.

[@joefo458]

I think “win with quills and ravens” is just a man who is more statesman than general saying that he wants to/thinks he can possibly win this war with something other than a straight military victory. Which makes sense: Robb was half a Hannibal in the field at that point.

[@capgangchannel6309]

Maybe the knight of the laughing tree is actually bran. Howland reed prays to the trees on the isle of faces, bran sees this through the time travel and is able to possess howland like how he will possess hodor. Then Bran is actually able to be a knight for a little while, the thing he always wanted. Also this possession of howland reed by bran might also affect howland in a certain way just like hodors mind is broken by being possessed by bran. (Howland obviously won’t go simple like hodor). Maybe howland is somehow aware of the possession and this is why he sends meera and jojen to bran. Idk just a crazy theory.

[@restitvtororbis5330]

It is a crazy theory, because everyone else already knows the knight of the laughing tree was the Dusky Lady /Shrouded Lord.

[@LucasSchimmel]

The stuff about Catelyn playing favourites but still loving her children makes complete sense. She might have affinities, she likes Sansa a lot because they have so much in common and likely have a lot of common ground in their daily activities, while Arya is harder to get along. But doesn't mean she hates Arya, as for Arya wanting to kill Catelyn, obviously Arya is complicated, she's under a lot of stress and literally has a deathlist and thinks all her problems can be solved by just killing the right people. When their situation gets harder and they get separated for a long time, their disagreements just sound so small. Bran is the child she gets to spend time, being the second son, and was grievously injured.

[@nononono3421]

Cat’s behavior in the draft when she is dying sounds like when Varamyr skinchanges that girl, and the description of the blood running down her face and he tearing her ears out is reminiscent of weirwood. This might imply she is getting skinchanged by someone in that moment. This might be key to some coming back from the dead; they are undead because something else is in them.

[@parastroika2393]

'imply she is getting skinchanged by someone in that moment' ..........or 'something'. Kinda scary to think of it like that, Stoneheart not actually being an undead Catelyn but some vengeance-obsessed demon that possessed her body in her grief, Catelyn thinks Robb and Sansa are her last living children and Sansa is a prisoner married to Tyrion Lannister at the time she dies. The reason the Andals destroyed Weirwoods is because they saw them as demons.

[@csilval18]

I think Tywin's quill and ravens comments is more likely he's speaking about convincing the Freys and Boltons to betray tha Starks more than the red wedding in specific. Maybe that wasn't even near his mind, but maybe he knew he had an ally in Roose, and maybe he could get the Freys also on his side.

[@FlorianMark]

Do you remember the calendar artwork with the green leafs? This was on the island of faces. Weirwood had green leafs before they got corrupted. On the god's eye the maybe still normal. The faces on the trees look tortured.

[@manband20]

Regarding the circumstances that lead that to the Red Wedding: as much as it sucks to admit that this wasn't all some grand scheme that makes Tywin look like a megaboss, admitting that it really was just a series of coincidences that Robb played into AND every single major side character being as sneaky as shit explains it all very well. Walder Frey never actually committed to aiding Robb. All he did was make betrothals that would be solidified at a later date in exchange for supplying him with men. If Robb wins and Tywin is defeated/killed, he just married into the family of the new King of the North. But if Robb loses/dies, he can just explain it away as a superior force was preparing to besiege his castle and he needed to do what he could to placate them so he made vague promises that he "never intended to follow through with. He'd probably lose some land and have his kids and grandkids forcibly married off to lesser lords as punishment, but since he didn't help them too much he isn't technically as guilty. Either way, Walder comes out on top. Sybell Spicer had her entire family imprisoned and her castle taken. She's crafty enough to know that she's been beaten and even though her family fought back, they were at risk of Tywin punishing them for not fighting hard enough. So when she had the chance to get Robb alone with her attractive daughter, she took it. Whether or not they got married by Robb's own volition was irrelevant. All she needed to do was put some tension between the Freys and the Starks by letting it be known that Robb banged her daughter by saying something like *"The boy dishonored your House AND dishonored mine!" she cried to the Freys. "What good is his word that he will remain loyal to your kiswoman when he won't even marry my Jeyne! Is this really the son of the honorable Lord Ned Stark?!* If and when the Starks lose, she can look at Tywin and say "I set this up. Spare me and my family for ending your war for you." which she absolutely did considering her family got out of everything despite being Robb's closest confidants by the end. But if Robb somehow wins, she just married into the family of the new King of the North. Either way, Sybell comes out on top. Roose Bolton was always playing with his cards close to his chest. He withheld his own troops at the Green Fork so he would have the men in case he decided to do something tricky later on. When everything began to unravel AKA Cat freeing Jaime and the Freys going home following the marriage, he knew Robb's time was up. This was when I believe Roose began plotting with Tywin and acted as a broker between him and the recently-dishonored Walder Frey. The Karstarks going home was the nail in Robb's coffin and Roose's order to attack Duskendale was clearly a setup by Roose to eliminate Robb's men and get some hostages. Since Roose was actively helping the Lannisters, he was going to be spared Tywin's wrath after the war was over. And we all know how it worked out for him. So yeah TL;DR Robb and Cat just made a series of bad choices and encountered a bunch of bad people who were all conspiring the end the war and find a way to come out on top or else they'd need to face the wrath of Tywin Lannister.

[@maxwell_j_R]

Tywin knowing about the Red Wedding at the start of 'Storm' is perfectly reasonable. In Arya X, ACOK, Roose is already undermining the Stark loyalists (sending them to Duskendale, because he knows the war is lost, Winterfell lost to the ironborn). Then when Roose hears about Robb's wedding to Jeyne... Roose is in communication with Walder Frey (Arya's betrothed knows he won't marry a princess), and it's not so much of a stretch to think Roose might also communicate with Tywin, who has just won the Battle of the Blackwater. (Maybe Roose informs Tywin about Duskendale, why Randyll is there to trap them?) The most difficult thing to explain timeline wise is why 600 Boltons are okay with Ramsay commanding them to attack the Northern army outside Winterfell. Not enough time for Roose to have given the okay for that, unless he did so before hearing about Robb marrying Jeyne.

[@maxwell_j_R]

Reek/Ramsay thinks he can raise 200 Dreadfort men, but comes back with 600. So Roose was definitely planning something... And Roose sort of "lucks" into Ramsay taking command and deciding to burn it all down (to try to keep the secret of Bran and Rickon being alive). A little theory I have is that Ramsay was trying to work against Roose, but ended up accidentally helping him. If Ramsay knows Roose isn't his father, then he is out for vengeance against the man who killed his father and raped his mother.

[@Longshanks1690]

The thing about the Knight of the Laughing Tree is that I don’t understand what the point of it is from a story perspective unless it’s Lyanna. Let’s say Ned is the KOTLT… so what? It’s not like this action makes Ned a bolder or more assertive character later in life, he’s still remarked upon as the Shy Wolf still. Is it to bond him closer with Howland? Well no, Howland would be grateful enough they chased the squires away and that they survived the Tower of Joy together. There are enough reasons to suppose they’d be close friends without this additional element. So why would George write Ned being this mystery knight when it accomplishes absolutely nothing for his character that wasn’t already established? The same is true of Benjen or even Brandon. Brandon is already an impulsive hothead so that would be unsurprising and we know Benjen is dutiful enough to join the NW later in life. This experience adds nothing to their character if it’s revealed to be them later on. And it can’t be anyone outside the Stark family, as what was the point of telling us the Stark kids defended Howland from the squires if they didn’t follow up on it? With Lyanna, on the other hand, it ends with Rhaegar chasing after the mystery knight, with many speculating that’s how they met and he became aware of/interested in her, whether romantically or as the vessel for his prophecy baby. It’s at least something that can’t be accomplished organically or naturally elsewhere in the story. There’s really no other reason Rhaegar would be aware of her, unless he met her in this moment. I definitely think it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense that it is her from a mechanical perspective of how she learnt to be so good from nowhere, but from a character perspective, I don’t see how it makes sense for it to be anyone else but Lyanna. Her story changes by meeting Rhaegar for the first time because of this moment. The Stark boys don’t change at all. That alone is pretty solid evidence for me that it just be her, and George simply didn’t consider how it didn’t make any sense she was so skilful out of nowhere.

[@therealmarkg171]

Lyanna being the KOTLT is completely unnecessary for explaining how Rhaegar and Lyanna met / Lyanna came to his attention. The KOTLT demanded in front of everybody that the defeated knights teach their squires honour instead of taking the ransoms they seemingly obviously needed as a knight competing in mismatched armour and arms instead of a complete set. The obvious starting point for Rhaegar's investigation is the 3 squires and their recent actions. And Lyanna happened to beat up all 3 of them a few days ago for attacking one of her father's bannerman. And is therefore the obvious next person for Rhaegar to interview. Rhaegar's meeting Lyanna whether she's the KOTLT or not. In fact it might even be more tragic if all this happened simply because Rhaegar thought she was the knight and she never actually was.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@therealmarkg171 I don’t think there’s no other way Rhaegar and Lyanna could have met, but with everything we know, it seems odd George would include this story if that’s not what it’s alluding to. Like why have this big, important mystery ending with Rhaegar chasing after the knight only to reveal Rhaegar met her at a formal event one time? It’s just less impactful from a storytelling perspective.

[@therealmarkg171]

@@Longshanks1690 Where did I say that? I said they have to meet regardless because Rhaegar's only lead is figuring out what the squires did that was so bad that the knight wanted them punished instead of ransoms they'd won that he seemingly was in need of as a mismatched poorly equipped knight. The only thing we know the 3 squires did that was bad was them attacking Howland, which Lyanna was the person who intervened and stopped. Rhaegar and Lyanna already have their natural casus belli in story through her involvement with the squires earlier without making things completely unrealistic by also having her be a secret champion knight level jouster despite having no jousting experience.

[@j_shaw]

in regards to why Lyanna would be good in a tourney; it's stated multiple times in the books that winning in the lists is more about riding the horse than it is being good with a lance. Lyanna is said to have been a great rider, "that one was half a horse herself" is the quote that comes to mind. Even without Stark genes this would probably make her a pretty good lance; add some skinchanger magic to the mix et voilá, you've got yourself a girlboss mystery knight, unhorsing lesser men left and right. as a sidenote: dunk and egg especially has some nice passages where dunk thinks of himself as trying to become one with the horse during the tourneys. if "becoming one" with an animal is not the ultimate expression of skinchanger magic idk what is.

[@nononono3421]

I think the KotLT is Hodor. Bran skinchanges him in the past to be a knight for a day, to beat the bullies, but this happens while the cave gets invaded and Meera is yelling to « Hold the door! ». That is when Hodor’s brain got fried in the past, screaming « Hodooooor!!! » with his booming voice, while in the present he’s told to hold the door. The story got retold as « teach your squires honor! » because no one understood what « hodor » meant. Lyanna is a red-herring. This skinchanging is what led to the war ultimately, by accident.

[@michaelstalkfleet6989]

Hodor was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The Knight of the Laughing Tree story was "inspired" by events in the series Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. There was a character named Tiamak who is a marsh man who is small, who lives in a little hut on stilts in the swamp (a crannog), and he is associated with crocodiles, and one day he gets in his little boat and leaves the marsh, which very few of his people do. He goes to a meeting place and meets up with the Northman Isgrimner (Isegrim is a wolf from the medieval story Reynard the Fox). The marsh lad goes for a walk by himself and gets cornered by three religious zealots who are going to beat him to death. And he gets saved by Ceallio--the simpleminded mute giant, who is "the Doorkeeper"--Ceallio is actually Camaris--the greatest most chivalrous knight of the age--who suffered a brain injury 40 years ago and lost his identity, and has essentially been living in obscurity for 40 years (a man who is like Hodor who is a Doorkeeper--he holds the doors, hmmm, and Camaris is a very close parallel to Arthur Dayne, camaoir means "dawn" in gaelic, and he has a magic sword made from a meteor, and camaran means "idiot" and cam means "bend, bent, and deceit") So a little marsh man is saved from 3 bullies by a mystery knight, who is a simple-minded mute giant who has lost his identity from brain injury, who beats the shit out of them. At the time I couldn't make any particular sense out of the associations of Hodor being the mystery knight. But if it was Bran skinchanging Hodor through the weirwood network then it makes perfect sense. Hodor was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Hodor is a simple-minded, (almost) mute giant, who loses his identity when Bran takes over his body, and he defends the crannogman. Bran acting through Hodor also defends the crannogman Jojen when they are going north.

[@chrisrubin6445]

this is an amazing theory, and one ive never heard before!

[@nononono3421]

George went out of his way to write in ADWD that greenseers are sometimes born with green eyes, sometimes red. Shaggydog has black fur and green eyes, Ghost has white and red, which is the inverse of Shaggydog.

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

Saying that Twin will win with "quills and ravens" doesn’t mean that the red wedding was planned. It only means that he was working on alliances. Given that "wars are won by logistics", I don't think you should read too much into that.

[@nilen435]

It seems that Tywin strongly beliveve he can predicts how Rob will act. Its like with the battle of the green fork. He beliveve he can trick Rob to attack where he Tywin looks weak, because he is "young and reckless". But Rob is with alot of experienced generals soo I have a hard time taking that.

[@MrSilvUr]

I always thought Howland's "skin boat" was the most intriguing. It sounds like a Norse kenning refering to his body. Like Howland spent a winter hooked up to the weirwoods, but then wanted to stop being a disembodied consciousness. So he looks for his body, finds it right where he left it (presumably ot was being cared for by the green men or something), and says good bye to the trees he was hooked up to.

[@Xob_Driesestig]

a skin boat is an actual type of boat tho

[@MrSilvUr]

@@Xob_Driesestig I know.

[@joefo458]

Or even similar to the Wolf Thoughts, like “man-paws”.

[@aber416373]

The Ents have gone to war! Grrm is doing his version of Tolkien. The weirwoods win the iron throne, using Brans body.

[@coreyander286]

And the Ents going to war was Tolkien doing his version of Shakespeare...

[@Leo_ofRedKeep]

Why do people think Tywin planned the Red Wedding? All he did was make offers to potential traitors and they did the rest. That's what it means when Tywin says some battles are won with letters.

[@michaelstalkfleet6989]

Grean means "the bottom of the sea" in Gaelic, that is where mudpots' greendreams comes from.

[@casey9439]

Jon was cut out of lyanna with a bleeding star (dawn)

[@DSRJoker]

Taking the moment from Brandon is a weird, I get it but, choice... Because if you take saving Reed, trying to save his Father you end up with this sort of echo, of "what a Knight should be" folding back on the idea that "the reason the world is the way it is, is because before the story started all the hero's died." You also add more to Ned's imposter syndrome because he clear never thought held be the Lord of Winterfell, then his brother and father dies and he has all this responsibility thrust on him... I think its why Ned can feel like a caricature of nobility sometimes, because he is, he's pretending to be other people, "what would his brother do..." But we the reader, in the published version don't have much to go off of. Why is this important? Because the way Ned acts effects the way Jon acts. Again an echo. People who are trying to honor memories of someone's else, and in a way losing themselves to it... This is parallel with Dany because she has no clue how to be a Targaryen... And you could argue this all goes back to the themes of identity, birth right, who are we? Are we who we are, who we project, what the world thinks we are, or tree hive mind?

[@michaelstalkfleet6989]

othar means "cripple" in Gaelic, the Others are Bran's shadow swords. And we learned from Mel and Stannis, and Dany, that a baby, sometimes still in utero, is turned into a Shadow Sword Assassins via Shadowbinding. The same with Craster's boys, a baby is sacrificed and turned into a Shadow Sword. And Craster's Keep is a metaphor for a weirwood hill, Craster is the tree, his wives are the CoTF, and the sons are turned into Others.

[@celebalert5616]

is Honeytongue candidate for most obscure asoiaf character? mentioned only once by an already somewhat minor character in an unreleased draft version of the novel ... can anyone beat that?

[@6Rock6God6]

I could not disagree more that somehow Lady Stoneheart and Arya have no thematic links. Arya's whole arc is centered around revenge, Lady Stoneheart's entire reason for living is revenge.

[@jackiec9139]

I've always felt like Tywin and Roose had at least some plan for killing Robb since at least mid Clash. It is what makes Arya and Weasel Soup so tragic. She thought she was rescuing these Northmen. Who she observes entering as wounded but the moment the soup is spilled they don't quite seem so injured. And Roose enters Harrenhal as Lord of the castle, not in chains. it is also around this time that Ramsey kidnaps the lady and Roose pretends that Ramsey is dead. Very sus. I don't think the "Red Wedding" was fully planned by then, but at least the seeds had been planted. Jane was just luck, the grave was already mostly dug. Also while Arya is at Harrenhal, the Frey Boy cries about loosing his princess. Anyways everything about the "Red Wedding" seems planned by the time Clash is finished and Jane was just the cherry on top to give them, specifically the Freys, an excuse. They would have done it anyways, but an excuse helps, I suppose

[@ZackThoreson]

A recent Calendar image had green trees on the isle of faces. Could they be uncorrupted there?

[@jsull81]

I'm leaning more & more to this being the case, especially since the new calendar was released Though it does make you wonder why, if Howland knew there was a split in the weir-net or whatever, he'd send his children to guide Bran to the dark side of that split? Maybe future Bran told him to do it or the greenseers on the Isle of faces somehow know that's what's needed to set things right? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@ZackThoreson]

@@jsull81 that is a good question. Perhaps he thinks that their mission could heal the net? But that seems like a lofty goal to have, that I’m not sure anyone in the world has even thought much about. Pretty sure blood raven wants things to go back to the way it was just before the most recent Other awakening. I think a healing will happen but I just don’t think anyone has figured it out yet in-world.

[@jsull81]

@@ZackThoreson ya, exactly. I feel narratively that would be a natural way to go to conclude the story, but at the same time I don't think there's been much foreshadowing for that actually happening, so who knows? Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of story George is trying to tell, but this is definitely an option (imo) if George wants to use it 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@JoniukasVader]

Back are we and

[@theletterm5425]

Maybe Tywin wasn't banking on Robb outright marrying Jeyne, but instead simply expected that he would have sex with her and get her pregnant (playing off the idea that Ned, too, fathered a bastard during war time)? I'm not sure if fathering a bastard would have given enough offense to Walder Frey to go along with the Red Wedding plan… on the other hand he is described as being very prickly… I really don't know, what do other people think about this idea?

[@CosmicCorviknight]

I've never given too much thought to the Green Men as they're so briefly mentioned or described there's not much to work with, but now I like the idea that they could be a bunch of creepy Bloodraven-style characters entwined into weirwood thrones. Also, considering the Order of Green Men has existed for thousands of years and is very centrally located in Westeros it's weird that there's so much mystery surrounding them in-universe. And how do they recruit new members? Do they have an outreach programme at Westerosi high schools?

[@berlineczka]

I watched a video on KZbin (unfortunately I do not remember by whom, so I cannot give proper credit) that theorize that the weirwood used to be "normal" looking magical tree, with brown bark and green leaves. Garth the Gardener's sigil is a green leaf-hand, which could be a link between him and the weirwood system. Then something terrible happened in the past, a pact was broken or something else, and the weirwood system was murdered. In result, the leaves turned red like blood, the wood became pale like corpses, and the faces of the weirwood trees are frozen in impressions of fear, anger, or suffering. The Others are also connected to the weirwoods - maybe they are stranded souls of the trees/their Greenseers who managed to escape and warg in other beings? That would explain their quest and hatred of humans.

[@danjordan1]

GRRM PLANNED IT ALL

[@jsull81]

It's all going according to keikaku

[@ThailandOutsider]

Benjen potentially spent a fair amount of time hangin out with Howland, it's possible that he told them about whatever he learn on the Isle of Faces, maybe like Rob and Bran, Ned took it as just stories but Benjen took him seriously, almost sounds like Rhaegar when he read that book

[@carl-henrikfelth3985]

Do you guys imagine that the weirwoods made the Children into telepathic tree hippies or that the Children created the weirwood net?

[@chrisrubin6445]

going by "And Seven Times Never Kill Man" it would be the Weirwoods who affected the children, and once the children are gone, they will do the same to the men

[@poppag8281]

1:47:46 that doesn't mean that he was planing the red weeding? just that he is planing something, we don't know that was his only plan it could have been one of many

[@leftofyou]

I am predicting that when TWOW is realeased in 2025, that it will have the kind of ending that could conclude the series, while also leaving room for a ADOS, which we can still possible get. There I said it.

[@overlookers]

Another Chapterhouse situation

[@globesurfer122]

Doubtful

[@Ancor_Vantian]

"When is released" Get a load of this fcking guy

[@coreyander286]

To an extent, I could feel that way if it had ended at Storm of Swords.

[@leftofyou]

Excuuuuuuse me. Not only am I a prophet on such matters, but unlike GRRM, I've yet to be wrong with my prediction on the release of this book. Hold on just a lil longer and I'll come back here to rub it in after it's all said and published.

[@CasaTelvanni]

The part about the knight of the laughing tree made me think: the whole time when the reeds are telling this story jojen seems surprised ned didnt tell bran about it, now i get the impression hes surprised because ned was the knight ans didnt tell such a tale to his kids

[@therealmarkg171]

Exactly. Meera even says the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar is a different and sadder tale than this one: “She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.” Also earlier in that very chapter Bran mentions they're in the territories of the Wulls and Meera and Jojen recognize the name from Howland's old war stories: “Wull?” said Meera. “Jojen, wasn’t there a Wull who rode with Father during the war?” “Theo Wull.” Jojen was breathing hard from the climb. “Buckets, they used to call him.” Theo Wull was called "faithful Theo Wull" by Ned and was at the ToJ alongside them. Theo was Ned's buddy and that's how Howland knew and fought beside him during the war. Howland's stories to his children about Theo are stories about Ned's adventures and the things Ned did during the war. But Bran seemingly doesn't know him as he doesn't recognize the name. So Ned never told him those stories either. Right before the KOTLT story we're introduced to other stor(ies) of Ned's adventures that he didn't tell Bran but Howland told his own kids. So why wouldn't the KOTLT also be his too?

[@CasaTelvanni]

@@therealmarkg171 good catches, i hadnt tought about these other clues and now that you brought them up i believe even more Ned was the knight i will even bring up a interpretation of what george could have originally intended with the kotl story: maybe by presenting brandon as the outspoken brave wolf and ned as the shy one he makes it seem brandon will avenge howland, but then he subverts it by having the shy ned do it also there is the fact the kotl asks the knights to teach their squires honor, wich could be a nod to the honored way ned acts

[@Mj_Jetson]

On Ned and the Knight of the Laughing Tree... do we ever hear about Ned jousting, or being good with horses? The only thing that doesn't make sense about Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree is how a 14-year-old girl is able to beat 3 tourney champions... but for that a) she could've cheated (sabotaging equipment and skinchanging her opponents horses) and/or b) Rhaegar was rigging the tourney in part by inviting terrible jousters (as with Winged Knight's tourney), so the fact that the winged knight's 3 opponents won their previous tilts doesn't mean they were skilled and b) GRRM is really bad with ages and abilities for kids.

[@Mj_Jetson]

On Ned jousting... I'm probably missing something, but i think the only quote I can think of off the top of my head is about Robert... "Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth." (Cersei V AFfC). so it sounds like at the very least, ned and robert weren't jousting buddies growing up in the Vale?

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

Jaime believes jousting to be 3/4 horsemanship. Jaime is a reliable source when it comes to matters of warfare, Tyrion cites him multiple times. I assume that this is the factor that GRRM goes for when deciding who wins the joust, ignoring rigged and trickster scenarios.

[@FlorianMark]

​@@umwhathe booming voice is simply explained. Her helmet was to big and she tried to make a deep voice. I am not sure why Preston think this is hard to explain. But I am still not 100% sure because in Dunk and Egg we see it needs skill. On the other hand Jamie says it's 3/4 horsemanship which Roose says Lyanna was a horse.

[@FlorianMark]

I could also see Holand could be the knight of the laughing tree. Could used some of his "magic". Or he was pretending he was not strong in the first place.

[@joshhoffman5233]

I don’t recall them being three champions. Just contestants. And it’s the biggest tourney of all so it’s not even a super elite company.

[@robt4390]

Did Tywin order the Westerlings to try and initiate a tryst between Robb and Jeyne in the hopes that that would help drive a wedge between him and the Freys - perhaps aware that Lord Walder would be keeping his options open and might be inclined to align with the Lannisters if they presented him with a preferable alternative (to his alliance with Robb)? He then just lucked out that Robb married her. A schism having been created, he merely had to offer the Freys an alternative. If so, what more might Tywin have offered the Freys to break their alliance with Robb had he not wed?

[@baerververgaert1308]

Could Tywin be referring to Roose Bolton's secret alliance to the Lannisters?

[@3faltigeralexandro]

Maybe Tywin had plans for both outcomes: if Robb hadn't married Jane, Tywin could have spun it into "the Starks aren't as honorable as they claim" and still have done some damage. He doesn't have to know Robb, if both outcomes are in his favor.

[@gaghhuh2943]

Hi Preston, would you maybe do a dedicated video on the green men and the isle of faces? GRRM said they will be important for the endgame and I would love to know how it all fits into your understanding of the world

[@itsreallyjk]

I was literally playing destiny 2 while watching this when your friend brought up destiny 2 😭

[@michaelgregorich3774]

The weirwoods shouldn't be red, or black. Those ones are corrupted. That's why the red trees look angry or pissed.

[@williamwilliams8809]

Lyanna worged her horse, as Arya worgs Nymeria

[@KaritKtana]

I think even without the word "playful" we know Benjen used to be laid back and humorous. He teased Lyanna when she listened to Rhaegar playing his harp, and he would play with her a lot as children. And he was always the baby. I think George said by the time the books end we'll know exactly why he joined the Watch. Personally, I'm sure it has to do with Lyanna.

[@jackdoyle7453]

They didn't use the term "Others" in the show because it had been used in Lost.

[@draadjesvleess]

There are also two passages showing that jeyne's mom is in on the plot with tywin. Jeyne's mom is making fertility tea for jeyne, which I think is doing the opposite. And in tyrion 3 kevan says that jeyne takes after her mom, her mom being from a lowborn upjump family, jeyne's doing the same thing by marrying rob. So I think it's possible the westerlings are coordinating with tywin very early on. But maybe the initial plan is just alienating the Freys and making sure rob doesn't get an heir so Sansa and tyrion will inherit once rob dies. The red wedding only comes in as an option later like carmine says.

[@Brellowcrop]

You can not feed a kid viagra. That is the hard part 😉

[@barrry9]

Perhaps the Jeyne plan was originally just that Robb would feel responsible for arranging ANY good marriage for her with one of his bannermen, which gives them the chance for the RW? I think it's easier to predict that the son of Ned Start would do something like that, Robb just went further than they'd planned

[@joefo458]

Confirmed: Benjen stole Robert’s royal dagger cache and hid it at the Fist (minus the Valyrian dagger, of course).

[@db7213]

Re: Tywin's ability to predict that Robb would marry Jeyne: we know from the ADwD epilogue that Kevan Lannister knows about the Westerlings' "love potions". I know that *you* have speculated that those "love potions" just gives the person drinking it a boner, but the text doesn't say that. If the "love potions" instead causes the victim to be susceptible to marriage proposals, then that would explain both how Tywin could predict that Robb would want to marry Jeyne Westerling *and* why Cat would be surprised by Robb's decision. (It could also tell us something about Tyrion and Tysha -- for example, perhaps Tywin incorrectly assumed that Tysha had used a love potion on Tyrion, and that's why he went off the rails about it.)

[@Yannis1a]

Well what if the original plan of the Red Wedding was different, a different Groom but the same result It could have been that Walder Frey had planned to kill him at his wedding but when he had already marry they change to his uncle’s wedding, that’s why he only wanted a wedding he didn’t ask for more land, titles or to make Edmure’s future child Robb’s heir, what he wanted was a wedding If he hadn’t marry Walder would had ask for the wedding to happen before going north nevertheless He already hated the Tuly and Tywin would have still promise him more land, so Robb marrying Jayne change nothing the wedding was already going to happen

[@dasaggropop1244]

the show tells us pretty convincingly how reed was able to kill arthur dayne: he stabbed him in the back. being a stealhy sneaky motherfucker fits his whole crannogman in hiding thing quite well....i got no problem with that

[@myrabeth77]

Brienne is an adult reflection of Tomboy Arya to Cat/Stoneheart. Brienne taking out Stoneheart works thematically from that POV.

[@jgr7487]

The Red Wedding preparation was when Tywin couldn't lose: either the Freys & the Boltons want to kill Robb or the Starks are tied to the Westerlands via a double marriage. Jane Westerling being Queen in the North would allow Tywin to send his people as her maids & knigts.

[@michaelgregorich3774]

The isle of faces doesn't have red weirwoods. It has green trees. With faces that actually talk possibly. The calendar recently released portrays these trees as green. And weirwood actually means man wood. So them talking is reasonable. There's three weirtrees and three weirthrones. It's a game of thrones plural. Not game of the iron throne. White with red leaves black with blue leaves and the isle of faces has green leaves. Hard to interpret the coloration of the trees on the calendar.

[@robertmauck4975]

33:02 So in the show, who would be taking care of all the toddler and young children Others when they go matching south? The teenage Others? Also, where are all the rest of the Others? We never do see any of them, but there should be just a many as Crastor's wives (more or less), but we only ever see a handful.

[@GiubileiFernando]

Maybe they were expecting Rob to just father a bastard with Jeyne, or at least make it believable when she showed up with a baby she would claim is his bastard, to undermine his perceived righteusness and undermine his bethrotal. They didn't expect him to make it so easy for them by marrying her.

[@daboos6353]

The Weirwoods on the isle of faces might be green, in the 2024 ASOIAF calendar there's that art of Lyanna and Rhaegar in front of a Weirwood with green leaves, maybe on the isle of faces?

[@johnw6613]

ice could also smoke by changing from a solid to a gas aka steam so it still shows they are made out of water but it hurts them far more making them skip a whole state of matter

[@nononono3421]

Arya killing the NK might have been to make up for her killing LS in the books. Brienne would kill Stannis, Cat promised she would let her go kill Stannis if that day came, and LS would want Stannis dead.

[@DeanMurray08]

Why does pj think ‘the white walkers’ was only used in the show? That’s what they are called in the books too?

[@Taterifix]

Close the door, you’re letting in a draft

[@cameronjadewallace]

Ngl, I live for these videos

[@emarti3853]

Robb Stark married Jeyne Westerling because her Spicer mother (granddaughter of Maggie the Frog) gave Robb a "love potion". Tywin didn't need to know Robb, but he was supposed to have known his bannermen.

[@standuplive1]

Appreciate Carmine keeping PJ in the realms of reality lol.

[@hobbes1887]

Ice is a crystalline structure, and George loves to use crystals as shells for disembodies consciousness, souls and memories. I think that the Others are living souls trapped in ice. The ice bodies that melt in contact with obsidian are really "snowmen", shells that Craster sons use to be immortal

[@michaelstalkfleet6989]

Regarding the Green Men /Antlered Men, in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn their version of the Great Other (the Storm King) is described as a weirwood hill: "A shape loomed before him, an antler-headed shadow massive as a hill. It wore a crown of pale stones, and its eyes were red fires. Red was its hand, too, and when it clutched and lifted him the fingers burned like fiery brands. White faces flickered up all around, wavering in the darkness like candle flames. A giant antler-crowned hill, that has red hands, fiery eyes, and a pale stone circle, a weirwood circle comes to life and a giant hand does menacing stuff--and it is accompanied by the white faces of the Norns (the Others). The Antler crown of the green men refers to the weirwood circle in the grove above their heads, when they are seated on their weirwood throne in their weirwood cave, they wear the ring of weirwoods like a crown. And in Lord of the Rings, and Memory Sorrow and Thorn, and in Lovecraft, the Sidhe /sithi / Elves are describes as being space aliens --little green men.

[@nononono3421]

Throwing Jeyne at Robb doesn’t require a wedding to put the Frey alliance at risk, it would be enough to hopefully get her pregnant to cause Frey to break his alliance either directly or by demanding excuses. Even no pregnancy might be sufficient.

[@sillysailorartemis]

Re: Tywin/RW Ice & Fire app canon is Sybelle "love potion'd" Robb, so they could effectively predict him wanting to marry Jeyne. (Yes, no one likes this; yes, it's still probably true)

[@maxwell_j_R]

Catelyn's favouritism kinda makes sense (to someone like me, who doesn't have kids.. and of course GRRM doesn't either, so maybe the following was how he was thinking). Robb was Ned's heir and best friends with Jon. Sansa reminder her of herself. Arya reminded her of Jon. Bran wouldn't have had nearly as much of that Jon baggage, maybe reminded her of Edmure. And Rickon was just too young.

[@matt_9112]

The Robb was the heir (his farther's to prepare to rule from very eaely on) and his younger years being "shaded" by Jon being around and the same age is key imo. Bran is HER son, he's the one she gets to care for more than the heir apparent, by simple fact of the feudal structure. Sansa meanwhile is essentially destined to be married off and raising her doesn't really offer anything "new" to Cat, since that's plainly just passing on her own upbringing.

[@BaalFridge]

"Farewell to the trees" The fans brains: 🤯

[@BussinJeiber-wy1nc]

Why would you need valerian steel to take out lady stoneheart? Beric Dondarrion who was resurrected the same way as Catelyn, he was killed several times with conventional weapons.

[@scottclemans3369]

Why couldn't lady westerling contact Tywim first that Rob was smitten. He then tells her to encourage the relationship and contacts Walder Frey...sigh...

[@JonBrownSherman]

Carmine, come on, we all know there aren't any non-book readers watching this video. I won't believe anyone who responds to this saying they are one lol

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

I can see why you or anybody else would say that about *this* video in specific but a lot of the other ones we've done? Oh ya. We've been doing this for over 10 years, at least I have, and I can't tell you how many e-mails, comments, messages, etc etc of people who have expressed that they enjoy the book talk despite never reading them/wanting to read them.

[@rakino4418]

Uh hi, I'm not a book reader. I read about half of AGOT and bounced off it but I still like the deep dives/speculation.

[@JonBrownSherman]

@@rakino4418 You're a strange bird. You should listen to the audiobooks narrated by the actor who played The Hound!

[@emarti3853]

What is FOMOS?

[@coreyander286]

F'er-mothers?

[@wisdommanari6701]

Fear Of Missing Out

[@emarti3853]

@@wisdommanari6701 yeah I know, but there's this one guy who posts a comment "Preston is back FOMOs" and he does not use the word in correct context. I was hoping he'd respond

[@wisdommanari6701]

@@emarti3853 oh he's just saying mofo backwards as a meme

[@AiltonOfClawIsland]

planning of Rob marrrying Westerland could be proof for the love potion theory.

[@reddest-x]

Lady Stoneheart and Arya certainly have nothing thematic in common.... Certainly nothing like revenge, a major driving force for both of them....

[@thiagof414]

I don't know about Robb and the westerling lady. In the TV series when Vyseris' wife died the Hightower guy sent his daughter in. With many intentions, seemed to me. 🤷🏻

[@josephshirk8276]

Not gonna lie would watch got svu

[@weedhornjosh]

Green Dreams = 420 ? Leaving the trees (lemon tree song)

[@weedhornjosh]

:))

[@weedhornjosh]

Or Green as in Absinth with Weirwood being weirmut bark (the drug that makes you see feries (children of the forest)

[@weedhornjosh]

Remember kids, drugs can be bad for you and your Federal work clearance.

[@RJ-my4yu]

Castles appear from the trees and disappear back to them...

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

Hey Preston can I get your opinion on this? In ASOS Tyrion 9, Tywin says this: “The price was cheap by any measure... Joy is to wed one of Lord Walder’s natural sons when she’s old enough..." Yet in AFFC Jaime promises Joy to the Westerlings, due to Lady Sybelle: “Mention was made of a match for him as well. A bride from Casterly Rock. Your lord father said that Raynald should have joy of him, if all went as we hoped.” Jaime goes with this, as he does not know of any Frey Lannister arrangement. The way Catelyn describes Jeyne is with "good hips" yet Jaime describes her as "A willowy girl". So is it the same Jeyne? What are the Westerlings up to? Jeyne says she is taking a daily polutice for her fertility: “My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning." But is this to prevent pregnancy or encourage it, its left ambiguous as we don't know what side they are on clearly. As for the Freys, they don't get Joy or Lancel, they have to return all their hostages to the crown without payment, everyone hates them and Jaime treats them like shit, he treats Lady Sybelle like shit too. This seems a mess in the making for the Lannisters if you ask me.

[@ThailandOutsider]

If it's not capitalised then that second mention would be saying "Raynald will receive something that would make him happy" have joy or have happiness, but thats only of its lower case joy not Joy

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

@@ThailandOutsider No No, its not capitalized but it is specified to mean Joy, Jaime even sets up the match because of this.

[@ThailandOutsider]

@@CheeseCrumbs00 I wonder then if the lack of Caps is an editing mistake or if we're both right in a weird way 🤔 maybe that phrasing is what makes Jamie think of Joy the person 🤷🏻👍🏻

[@CheeseCrumbs00]

@@ThailandOutsider No, the caps aren't necessary because its a turn of phrase, but its referring to Joy obviously.

[@theletterm5425]

Does anyone know what Preston means by Catelyn displaying favoritism towards Sansa in AGOT? With Bran it's pretty obvious as she never leaves his side during his coma, until even Robb gets upset with her and reminds her that she's neglecting Rickon (who's like three years old I believe). But I don't recall any clear favoritism towards Sansa. Sure, Arya gets scolded by her mom because she acts "unladylike-like" and is bad at needlework and such. But that seems to me to have more to do with Catelyn's views on gender roles and her particular parenting style. In the later books (from ASOS) onwards, I'd say) there are a lot more references to Cat in Arya's story than in Sansa's!

[@Cashdummy]

do you think George achieved telepathy by living rent free in our heads? maybe he has achieved his goal and is just happy with that

[@tylerruddy5444]

The green men are Godrick the Grafted but with branches and leaves

[@Mj_Jetson]

The change to make Aegon not born yet at the Tourney at Harrenhal might've been made to make Rhaegar a little less of a jerk? In the published material, I don't think we know whether Elia and Aegon were in KL at the start of the rebellion? Its possible that he left them on Dragonstone, where they would be safer from Aerys? (though later in the rebellion, Rhaegar does stop by KL and seemingly doesn't take any steps to protect Elia then, so he's still a massive jerk and should still get a ton of the blame).

[@chriss780]

I think I remember in the flashback with feast he tells Jaime to protect them which... you know, lmao. and Jaime experiences guilt for this failure.

[@doghat1619]

At the start of the rebellion Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon were all in King's Landing.

[@Mj_Jetson]

@@doghat1619 This is from TWoIaF, so there's a good chance that GRRM will retcon it at some point, but for now, this is the text we have: "Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell," Unclear if Rhaenys was with them, or when they were shipped back to KL. According to JonCon: "After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward." (The Griffin Reborn ADwD) So I doubt she was travelling for a long while?