Considering the upgrade to better heat exchanger / PLM or Mishimoto?

[@GettingthruLife]

One note: I didn't illustrate properly in my representations of the fluid flowing across these heat exchanger where the coolant first fills up the one side of the end tank and then flows across to the other end tank so my illustrations just convey a general idea. Inside the end tanks is where the coolant collects and where thermodynamic principals have the hotter portion of the coolant rising and the cooler portion of the coolant staying towards the bottom portion. I am not a scientist or a professor in the area of fluid dynamics so I'm just having a discussion here and presenting ideas. I think would be cool and helpful to buy a PLM unit where if I had the opportunity to compare it directly/side by side to the AMS HX which is the pinnacle product but at a very high markup, this would be helpful to see. There is just so little info/video/reviews on many of the PLM products so it can be a gamble until I hold this part in my hands and inspect. Could be a wise buying decision or turn out to be a poor decision where I should have gone with Mishimoto.

[@ShadowVR30]

I've been using the china made BMS heat exchanger for little over a year in the south and went through a few 100+ days and it held up pretty well. I never had suffered from a long recovery time before. But then again I'm not racing the car in the blistering heat. Now I had been on the fence about running the AMS auxiliary fender tank, but thinking about it I rather put any extra coolant into expanding cooling capacity. If I do any upgrades I will add the mishimoto or PLM heat exchanger and keep the BMS installed as well. These cars (or at least mine) seem to run cooler than others. My oil & coolant temps never get above 200degrees (usually sits at 187). Where my many of my buddies cars are around 210-230 during the same cruise. (335i, 392charger, Lt1 SS camaro)

[@GettingthruLife]

Hey man good to hear from you AllenM3. Appreciate your discussion. My car almost never see's oil temp or radiator temps above 200 or the let's say extreme 203 degrees which I might have seen on the hottest and most humid Texas days after racing the car. I do notice when pushing my car on the 90ish and above degree days this past summer that once my car got heat soaked 120ish to 125ish that it took a decent amount of time (5-10 min) after getting back to speeds 45-50mph for the HX to start it's slow decline back to the lower 112-117 degrees. If I'm in the extended situation moving around 10-15 mph the temps would stick at 120-125ish. when sitting in a drivetru waiting for food I would see 145ish-150ish when it was stifling hot outside but once out of the drivetru and back moving with some traffic 40-50mph city roads the temps dropped very slowly but would stay 125-130ish. It will be interesting to see with the PLM HX compared to the BM HX how charge air temps and charge air coolant temps respond. I now tend to think that the AMS, PLM, and Mishimoto have the advantage in some of the situations because of how much surface area that matches all of the radiators width plus a good amount of height where the very small gap between the radiator and AMS, PLM and Mishimoto adds to the cooling their ability. This close proximity almost makes them one, Radiator and HX, where the car's fan when it pops on pulls air in from the front of the car which gets sucked into/through the HX and radiator. Without the HX being ultra close to the radiator then the fan wouldn't be sucking air through both. The Burger Motorsports in its location depends solely on mph airflow where it's only a foot off the ground where when on the city concrete during a hot summer day...that air in that zone above the pavement can be 130 degrees plus. I have 100 datalogs saved on my phone plus I've got about 20 datalogs in Datazap so I have plenty of data to compare. I will also compare coolant capacity again (stock vs Burger vs PLM) and I will make note of the weight just for data. I can remember pulling my Burger M out of the box and thinking my goodness, this is hefty even though it weighed something like 20lbs but felt like 30-35lbs. My guess is the PLM will closely model the AMS and Mishimoto weights and also manage maybe 8-12 degrees lower temps on the average hot day to day driving situations. I would hope temps drop down much quicker to 110-115 degree after extended racing activity. Also, I've thought a fair amount about running both the BM and PLM in tandom but that presents the problem of the placement of the HX coolant sensor. The dual system setup would require the temp sensor's wires to be longer so that it could be relocated down to the passenger's side front corner at the secondary HX outlet so that it reads the outgoing coolant temp from both HXers. Likely have to cut that sensor's wires to extend which I'm not sure I want to do even though it can be done. I'll look at this more when I get the front bodywork off my car.

[@ShadowVR30]

@@GettingthruLife You make some really good points. I have experienced the same heat soak that you have had when sitting in a drive through on a hot day and seeing it get up to 150degrees. Interesting to see if the PLM being influenced by the radiator fan would see temps in that range or not. It seems like it should have better cooling as where the BMS, like you said, is solely dependent on movement of the car to work. Another thing I didn't think about is that coolant temp sensor location. Any modifying of the heat exchanger layout could change where that sensor needs to be. I never thought about that... In either case I am sure you'll cover that in the install video and I'll look to learn more about what's needed. The last thing I would want to do is modify any factory harness or cabling.

[@GettingthruLife]

To hook up the Burger Motorsports to my liking, it would have to flow the other way/opposite direction. The inlet would be on the drivers side up at the top, then enter the end tank and flow across to the passenger side HX end tank. The outlet is now positioned at the bottom extreme corner maybe an extra 1.5" away from the temp sensor.. Appears to me the temp sensor specifically measures the post-temp HX coolant which the ECU bases tuning parameter off.. This is why I saw and make the statement that the Burger Motorsports was an after thought, not spec's correctly for this application. Burger M. cut corners and did/does not provide the extra things (hoses and the sensor wire harness extension) to configure and route the coolant correctly. The Burger HX does function, but how efficiently? Could it provide more cooling if flowing correctly? Would a 10-15-20 degree drop in coolant temp in the summer time allow this car to perform differently and reduce heat fade? All questions I've been contemplating for about a year and why I considered this swap. I will try to figure out if the exchange will worth the price in the next few weeks and then into the summer months. Stay tuned for video updates.

[@nissanv6TT]

I can't attest to the other guys warranty but there was an issue with my Mishimoto unit that prevented me from installation. I contacted their warranty department through their online process with all my info. I also sent a picture of my issue and they sent me another unit free of charge to get my car back on the road. The process was nice and straightforward without any of the blame game stuff that many of the other guys practice. I'm definitely a supporter of Mishimoto and will buy their products again.

[@GettingthruLife]

Good to hear. Was there a small hole or leak? Did it get damaged in shipping with excessive mashed veins? For the most part, I like Mishimoto until they started blowing me off about their so called development of the VR30 top mount intercoolers. They built up all this hype and then just stopped with no info. They blew me off in emails and on social media.

[@nissanv6TT]

@@GettingthruLife weld penetration into the threaded bung for the hose fitting.

[@GettingthruLife]

Seems like they would have caught that before shipping out. Why wouldn't companies do a quick pressure testing items like this? Good that they replaced it quickly but sucks to be hassled by the problem. My concept z performance aluminum driveshaft I ordered and it didn't fit was a Hugh letdown. Concept Z Performance company left me high and dry. I needed a replacement a.s.a.p and they wouldn't send one. Took photos to show bolt hole misalignment.

[@nsm4581]

What do you think about the burger motorsport kit????

[@GettingthruLife]

Well it's just the heat exchanger and not much else. It's a fairly big chunk of aluminum. 45ish ounces of coolant capacity due to the large end tanks. Close to 19 pounds dry. With it being mounted low and right in front below the midpoint front facia it get good airflow across it while at speed but can't rely on much from the car's radiator fan to pull fresh air through it at low speed and idle situations. I think feel the very best heat exchangers for this car are place similar to the factory heat exchanger but just need to be larger and flow well. AMS, Mishimoto, PLM are all on the same playing field. With my burger motorsports hx experience I just felt it was an after thought for the Q50-60 as it a basic general purpose core/end tanks that was made to fit into the front area of the Infiniti cars. It' works fairly well and does what it needs to do to reduce the compressed air temps. I personally feel that it's a little less effecient than the AMS, Mishimoto and PLM because from my memory and past experience the Burger takes longer to see heat soak level dissipate. Once it heats up, reaches heat soaked, its kind of stuck there at least until back on the highway in clean air and then it slowly drops CACT. When they were selling the $299 overseas model version that was definitely the better value as in this last year they jumped up in price. As far as the frozen boost options I consider the BMS and Frozen Boost the same on all levels due to mounting location and design difference but have the size/heat sink advantage of that contributes to any additional cooling. If I were doing it all over again starting from scratch, I'd try to find a good deal on a PLM because the lesser expensive option that mounts in the factory localtion, then the Mishimoto next. Most expensive is the AMS HX but most would say it is the best of all the HX's besides AMS's newest full race model over sized HX. At $1000 and it requires a little modification to the area where it bolts onto the Q50-60 so once you install it, you've then altered the factory structure around the radiator.

[@nsm4581]

@@GettingthruLife I don't want the car for race it every day, I think the burger is going to do fine , + the other heat exchanger are super expensive

[@GettingthruLife]

The only race car HX is the newest AMS jumbo model. I don't race mine very often, I don't "beat on it" a lot and I don't recommend driving these Q50-60 cars like it was stollen. The Burger works pretty well but for me, the other 3 options would be my preferred route and that's why I switched from the Burger to the PLM.. If someone said pick one and I'll get it for you, I'd get the AMS. I've seen people buy them for as low as $550. The PLM can be found close to $400. Negative for some people is they are more into seeing the intercooler look from the front so the burger and frozen boost is what they want.

[@nsm4581]

@@GettingthruLife burgertuning.com/products/450-horsepower-infiniti-q50-q60-package. Can you check that for me , do you think is worth it???

[@kobea8199]

@@GettingthruLife long ass reply

[@GettingthruLife]

The Frozen Boost (FB) not for me personally...I put the FB options in a same category as Burger Motorsports HX. They work much better than the anemic factory HX but the flat, large faced, size specific HX's seem to just have a faster recovery time and that's where my car suffers with it's BM HX. I'm not one of those that has to see my HX in the lower portion of the grill. The more factory look with a clean appearance is what I like in addition to a quicker recovery.

[@zkyzork]

Allow me to share some thought on this topic. From what I see from BM HX or factory one from the data i collected is mostly recovery time like you said is what hurt on these cars. Other than that the temperature stay where it should while the car is moving within 5 to 15 degrees above ambient temperature depending on how fast the car is moving right in par with those bigger HX. I did back to back runs going through multiple gears full throttle pulls repeatedly without let the speed go below 20mph. I have not seem any suffering from heat, unless I come to a stop and go traffic or at really slow speed. Again like you said, recovery time and how fast the temp. climb when come to a stop is the problem that we are facing here. To remedy this problem, I think we need to install a small fan on the HX. I been wanted to try this for awhile but not too serious enough for me to worry about it on mine since I don't use my Q50 for racing I have dedicated car for that. Since HX is solely dependent on outside air moving through it, it doesn't do it's job while the car is at stop or at slow speed. The stock fan for the engine coolant is not doing much to pull the air through HX since it sit so far to the front. You can barely feel the air moving through HX while it sit. Just a thought.

[@GettingthruLife]

I agree. Thinking the same thing last night. What is helpful to the AMS and these other similar looking designs/location/size is I feel is the location and how close the HX is to the radiator. At first when getting to know this car I thought negatively about this. Made more sense at that time to pull the HX away from the radiator plus add more cooling ability back to the radiator. Now through time, I can see more clearly why Infiniti and AMS did what they did. I think it do to the fan on the other side of the radiator. When the car slows down in speed like you mention then the coolant temp rises out of the optimum/premium temp. With the HX being so so close to the front of the radiator, then the fan which help draw fresh air into/across it's veins then can pull the cooler air in from the front of the car which serves due duty but the radiator I still think suffers a smidge but not enough to make it run much hotter. One of the tricks at the track or can be used in other situations where little airflow will be seen is crank the aircon on where this typically fires up the radiator fan to aid in additional cooling. I've always been a big "fan" of wiring up the radiator fan to a switch where it can be turned on manually for specific situations. With this car and all the others these days with as much of the electronic as they have, it's not something I trust myself to hack into the electrical system and engineer this bypass but would be beneficial for certain applications. Anyways thanks for the discussion. I share you same mode of thinking/reasoning here. One thing I can add is while running the Burger Motorsports HX my car's radiator for most of my memory has never gone higher that 205 degrees on the hottest 100+ degree day where it mainly hovers 199-200 degrees even while racing the car over and over, back to back. I mention this because I think moving the heat exchanger away from the radiator and placing it down low out if the direct path to the radiator helped it to be more efficient and run cooler. But the down side is the HX efficiency suffers as airflow decreases and speed drops. I can verify over many, many occasions that the Burger Motorsports once heat soaked takes a much longer time to cool back down where it actually won't by much unless you can jump on the highway and get back above 60-70moh for a period of time. I am assuming because I've never had these that the AMS, Mishimoto and the PLM will cool back down, recover much more quickly.

[@EATSLEEPJD]

Many people seem to run the burger along with the factory tandem.

[@GettingthruLife]

The small factory HX only holds 7 oz of coolant and that's half a drink cup: kzbin.info/www/bejne/roSalYGVi7R1nKM I chose to have that inferior unit know where near my car but up in my garage atic.

[@EATSLEEPJD]

@@GettingthruLife Yet the Infiniti Engineers thought that was enough even for a red sport. I wonder if they thought just moving fluid faster helps hence adding another pump.

[@GettingthruLife]

Well the RS suffers from heat soak about as badly as the one pump VR30 cars so don't know what the Infiniti engineers were thinking.

[@ceo4eva]

I got my AMS on sale for 620, just have to wait for a holiday that Infiniti Parts does deals on

[@jaytee3565]

Just saw the same deal think I am gonna pull the trigger and snag one

[@michaelsolis9891]

Where do you see this deal???

[@michaelsolis9891]

@@jaytee3565 where do you see this deal???

[@GettingthruLife]

That is the big question. Seems like would have mentioned where this blowout price was.

[@jaytee3565]

@@GettingthruLife just linked

[@luisiferz]

What do you think of the Frozen Boost Type 118 Heat Exchanger?

[@joshwilliams6336]

I have the frozenboost 118 on my supercharged Pontiac. Make around 700. I also have a 7.5gal icebox and methanol IAT’s are ok for 1/8 mile pass. Plan to upgrade

[@emanuelsosa8029]

You talk to much man

[@GettingthruLife]

Well, you apprently have diarrhea of the mouth. Thanks for stopping by.

[@mswire05]

Just an fyi Ams makes there heat exchange in house

[@paynetx]

Cores made in the UK

[@GettingthruLife]

As I have come to find out/hear not all parts AMS sells and branded by them means they make all the parts from scratch. Example their driveshafts which are made by the Driveshaft Shop where by the Driveshaft Shop gets the pieces to make the Driveshafts for various suppliers or manufacturers but the build them into the final package. Yep, the intercooler, HX and radiator cores seem to always be sourced from out of country. The unit as a whole may be pieced together here or partially. I don't work for AMS or run AMS of course so my thoughts and opinions are not the gospel. I learn new info everyday that helps me to get a little more informed.

[@caloFi]

would this void warranty?

[@GettingthruLife]

If the part you installed was directed related to the other failure then your dealership might have a case Timo not warranty the part tharlt failed. Example, you replace your hx and then your hx pump/motor goes out. 99% of the time no one will care or have a clue you put a better/more effecient hx on. A upgrade hx only really needed when adding 100whp+ tune and you don't want your car toning back power when you don't want it to. Even with an aftermarket hx your car will heat soak when hot outside

[@GettingthruLife]

Either or both similar result. Whatever makes you happiest. Certain names make people happy.

[@kielanvega4077]

Do you think I should go plm or mishimoto sir?

[@GettingthruLife]

I'd likely go with whatever you can save money on. If not a very big difference $20-30 then I'd go Mishimoto. PLM website 5% off I think 499 then was free shipping and no tax. I'm happy with the PLM heat exchanger.