Controversy at the Tanis Site

[@anthonywaynegrover]

DePalma has been described as a throwback to the 1890's in his clothing, gear, and field methods. To be the lead author on such a dramatic paper and yet be unable or unwilling to allow others to study his fossils, suggests more than a little snake oil. I can't figure out if he sees himself as Cope or Marsh.

[@muhammadrifqi7308]

Can't wait for him to invent terminologies as bad as sauropod, theropod, and ornithopod.

[@RaptorChatter]

I would say Indiana Jones, but even that has a host of issues

[@GruntoSkunko]

Fossils should be state property.

[@randomuser12237]

One problem unfortunetly, most fossils would be destroyed this way. Instead there should be hevy regulation where you can follow who owns a fossil. So that way you can stydu em. And obiosly if fossil is lost becuse someone sold it whitout ubdating ownership, there should be punishment.​ Normaly I would not be for this, but fossils have only 2 years to survive once they are on surface@@GruntoSkunko

[@p.bckman2997]

Using DePalma's sense of style as critique is neither here nor there, stick to the science. The DePalma paper seems to be badly incompetently put together, no matter what the 1st author chose to wear.

[@Kaisersaurus]

As a North Dakotan with a love for our local paleontology, DePalma and the way Tanis has been handled has always rubbed me the wrong way

[@muhammadrifqi7308]

Like sandpaper kind of way

[@beastmaster0934]

Why people still trust DePalma after all the shit he’s pulled confuses me to no end,

[@RaptorChatter]

A lot of it has been in the last few years, and while paleontologists know, he can suggest for isotope reviewers from outside of paleontology.

[@carolynallisee2463]

Ooooh, this is not good! Being able to examine the original data, test it and see whether or not the new results match the old, is good scientific practise. When this involves such an important site, capturing the instant such an important event is transpiring, it's even more important that the data is kept carefully, so that such testing can be performed. So, to lose or misplace such data is very bad indeed. It verges on being criminally negligent at best. At worst, people will ask what the scientist or scientists involved have to hide, if they have deliberately lost the data, so no-one else can use it. It throws everything the Tanis site has revealed into question, to the point where what it purports to record may not be what they claimed and what the rest of us thought it was!

[@RaptorChatter]

There's also the fact very few labs can run the analysis they said they used, and none of them have records of the material coming through their labs😬

[@jurassicswine]

My bad guys I had the fish fossils and misplaced them in the closet

[@TheMesosuchus]

I manage a stable isotope facility and we have a Gasbench II interfaced with a thermo IRMS (Delta V plus) and yeah they totally fabricated that stable isotope data. It is a lil sus that they were using a Gasbench with a dual inlet device. Gasbenches from my experience are a "continuous flow" device while a dual inlet mass spec is an "off line" device. Essentially a Gasbench consists of an array of air tight vials that you put a bit of carbonate (e.g., bone) and phosphoric acid into. The acid dissolves and the bone and releases CO2. It is the CO2 in the headspace of these vials that we sample for d13C and d18O isotopic values. For each sample the gasbench lowers a needle into the vial and sucks in some of the CO2. It does this multiple times for each sample (to avoid carry over effects between samples mostly) and each one of these sampling events creates a peak on a chromatogram and an isotope value. This is what we mean by continuous flow. The gas from whatever peripheral that is hooked up to a mass space continuously flows into the mass spec. Dual inlets work "offline" where you capture whatever gas you are analyzing elsewhere and store it in metal pressurized vessel and then later release that gas via a bunch of valves into the mass spec. Also there is no way they could have "lost" or "misplaced" the original "raw" data acquired by the mass spec. These machines are hooked up with Dell PC's with data acquisition cards. A program called isodat controls the mass spec and its peripherals like the gasbench AND records all the data in a results folder. While we all do regular backups, most labs ALSO keep all the raw data on their PC's going back years. For example, I have almost a decades of data on mine. (The raw isodat data files are pretty small and don't take up much space even when you have 1000s). Anyone even remotely familiar with using a PC and isodat would have been able to find that data if they knew the date and/or the internal lab codes for the data. Those lab codes would have been given to any client.

[@RaptorChatter]

Reportedly the person who sent the samples passed away, so that's the excuse they're giving as to why they don't have it. However, no lab in the US reported having seen the samples go through their facility, which from your expertise should not have been to difficult to find if they had. Not being a chemist I really appreciate when my viewers can chime in with their own expertise! Thanks!

[@Nightscape_]

The truth about the world is that crime does pay.

[@frankkenny6894]

I went to the peer review and it is magnificent. I see that they thank DePalma for his insightful feedback that help improve the paper.

[@RaptorChatter]

As I said, the reviews and discussion are very interesting to read through.

[@danielmalinen6337]

Why don't other researchers and scholars demand that DePalma should apologize everything, retire early, and renounce his doctorate after all this?

[@tomatosoup44]

As far as I know, DePalma doesn't have a PhD yet, he's currently enrolled at Manchester University as a postgraduate student (meaning he has a Bachelor's degree already and is now working on his Master's degree)

[@xovvo3950]

I know that as of December 15, 2023, The University of Manchester cleared DePalma of wrongdoing (i.e. that they think During's accusations are full of shit), but that he was merely bad at doing palaeontology. Which, I mean, I guess an institution would need stronger evidency to support a claim of theft, but like. We have eyes. We can see what he's doing.

[@TheMesosuchus]

@@xovvo3950 Universities like to protect white men in positions of power or influence until they can't cover it up anymore (eg. Robert Reisz at UoTM; more than a decade of sexual harassment and assault by male researchers at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute; long history of sexual misconduct at U.S. antarctic research bases that EVENTUALLY led to a BU prof being fired....and those are just three big ones. I know of many many smaller events in the paleo community and ecological community.)

[@GeologyHub]

This is disappointing. I initially found it “neat” that we could now determine the time of year of some major (brief) geologic events. However, I did wonder about the ability to independently reproduce this data. Something just seemed off. And now we (allegedly) might know why.

[@RaptorChatter]

The During paper still stands up! Everything they did still stands up against peer review! It's just her paper came out after the DePalma one, so got less press. Basically she and her team were right, and DePalma stretched his data at best and blatantly lied at worst.

[@jkosch]

@@RaptorChatter The funny part for me is: I did just skim the De Palma et al. (2021) paper, but actually read the During at al (2022) paper and some of supplemental material. Call it bias against DePalma if you want, but that publication seemed not quite as through as I wished even at that first glance (though I have to say: that is how I feel about quite few high profile publications in paleo that make it Nature and Science as well ...).

[@alisav8394]

As a phD student I'm glad you made this video.

[@pef1960]

I love the Tanis site and all that it's revealed,and Robert Di Palma lead in making those discoveries. But it was Melanie During who made the discoveries about the paddle fish, placing the impact in spring, and she was a member of the Tanis team at the time. Why do Palma felt the need to undercut her, I just don't underdtand....

[@micmalawi]

I was so hopeful for the Tanis site, but it really does need some professional investigation and more transparency. It is potentially one of the most important palaeontological sites. I hope all the controversy is not just jelousy from other scientists, but I hope equally that its not unprofessional workmanship from De Palma et al.

[@shmoonie2467]

Are you going to be involved with PaleoRewind this year? I've just seen one release so far.

[@stephengent9974]

Two peer reviews you said then published. So why was none of this flagged then?

[@RaptorChatter]

You'd have to ask the publishing journals. Wish I knew how it got through, but that's internal to the journal.

[@pef1960]

I thought the Di Palma paper had been withdrawn...

[@RiddleBoxBree]

More people wanting their name to be noticed in paleontology are sadly doing this. As a fossil preparator, I don't see this as much in the prep work, but it does happen

[@thomasnaas2813]

It is important that you and others in the community call these researchers out for their lack of rigor and for potential fraud. The ongoing problem with the apparently lazy peer reviews in journals along with foot dragging around pulling discredited articles makes this a critical issue for the scientific establishment and indeed for the world.

[@Tuishimi]

Sucks that in such a research and fact-based profession, bad behavior occurs. I know misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the data at hand can occur, of course.

[@Tuishimi]

And I think you are being very kind in your assessment/description of this issue.

[@RaptorChatter]

I agree, but tried to be deliberately neutral, like the article is. I personally wouldn't be surprised if he saw preliminary data and just stole it, but that's too much hearsay for the video.

[@GruntoSkunko]

Its not particularly "fact-based".

[@Terrik240]

As presented, its difficult to believe DePalma came to these conclusions with his own methodology.

[@artificercreator]

3:34 Those were a lot of irregularities for a cientific paper, very interesting.

[@drfill9210]

I agree that it all looks a bit dodgy but the bit where he missed some data points that's not unusual. I don't think it's the academic misconduct or anything like that that's a bit of an issue here is the fact that somebody who's really who is senior in the field felt the need to steal a paper from a PhD student that is so ridiculously low and sad. You mean to tell me that the only idea this guy can come up with has been stolen from someone who's barely in the field?

[@RaptorChatter]

It's not just the graphs having missing points that's the issue, it's that all of the primary lab data is also missing. Combined with the other issues it makes the whole DePalma paper feel poorly constructed, and that it likely at least stretched incomplete data to fit conclusions, and potentially fabricated data entirely. There is also anecdotal evidence of DePalma having issues in the field regarding treatment of other researchers, so it's not out of character based on what is known.

[@drfill9210]

@RaptorChatter I just feel you have enough to go on without worrying about the number of points to samples... present good evidence and leave the doubtful bits

[@spartan1986og]

People are going to people, I guess. At least the findings themselves (During et al) are not in dispute. It'd crush me if everything was made up. I've waited for someone to discover the Tanis site since I learned of Chicxulub as a kid. But what really burns me is that DePalma got all the money from the BBC documentary. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

[@K1NGM4S1V]

Best channel on KZbin. Thank you EZ !

[@MK-md3jb]

This is working communication gaps between the field and laboratory geoscientist, that is very unfortunate.

[@posticusmaximus1739]

Sounds so unprofessional

[@WebFanNY]

Is research data theft a big thing in paleonthology since they use computers other scientists can access or hack?

[@Mythil]

Always appreciate people who intend their puns.

[@joeshmoe8345]

good video thanks a bunch for sharing this with us

[@robmcelwee389]

One of the researchers on the site has a sister that is a big time youtuber.

[@malcaniscsm5184]

Starting the new year with paleoscandal and hissing!

[@rkozakand]

And Nikolay Ivanovych Lobachevsky strikes again!

[@secularsunshine9036]

*Let the Sunshine In...*

[@coastaltechnologies2329]

DePalma is such a tool.

[@existereOracle]

sorryyyyy i was sooooooo hungry..... i eated all of the fossils... :3c

[@ronperkins1687]

Love the lady with the pink hair, and now she's a Dr of Paleontology!!

[@ronperkins1687]

Her sister is awesome too!

[@Sirdilophosaurusthethird2.0]

Birds are dinosaurs

[@stopgont7360]

I'm stealing your magmatron now

[@SoulDelSol]

Rawr

[@FeatherVoid]

Please use proper accurate subtitles instead of auto-generated ones in your videos. DePalma keeps getting corrected to "the PO", During is completely lower-case, and there are numerous moments where you speak so fast that the auto generated subtitles can't keep up and generates the wrong word. Deaf, HoH and others with audio processing disorders - be they academics or just have a passing interest in paleontology - deserve to fully understand what you're saying, not just able bodied people.

[@CallixGaming]

It takes awhile for accurate closed captions to show up. It has only been up for a few hours.

[@aurelielagrange2173]

Can you try talking a little slower? I have crappy sound on this phone, hard for me to follow.

[@Raydensheraj]

Why don't YOU change the playback speed in the options?

[@aurelielagrange2173]

Or go Bluetooth