Conversations at the Crossroads of Nature and Wisdom

[@znorfel]

100% interested in the potential retreat!

[@trottingsparrow]

it will be 2025. in the meantime check out Embedded Experiences with Evolve Move Play

[@beyondourselvespod]

Thank you Kyle and John! I am a deep admirer of both of you. I am very close friends with Jake who was mentioned in this conversation. I’m working in Muir Woods right now as an environmental educator and I am working everyday to spark interest and connection in the outdoors for kids. Would love to talk more with both of you about all things environmental engagement, circling, and Dialogos. This all resonates so much!

[@InterfaceGuhy]

John, I am so fortunate to have been doing this stuff my entire life. Part of the reason your work was so resonant for me. Having a collaborative campfire conversation with you two not only sounds interesting, but it sounds more interesting than most everything else I want to do. I would love to chat with you about this stuff virtually and hopefully one day from the same firelight.

[@trottingsparrow]

I'm always up for virtual chats, and the in-person experience will be indescribable.

[@X11bl]

“My experience in the world now has language.” What a start. 🚀🚀🚀

[@trottingsparrow]

Life changing❤

[@andrewgray2029]

Kyle is definitely John's spirit animal

[@trottingsparrow]

This is soo good. we need a meme for this.

[@colorfulbookmark]

Dr.Vervaeke is great man and many people could learn from it.

[@trottingsparrow]

Modern day sage

[@JakeEatsPizzaRolls]

You KNOW I'm interested in the campfire Dialogos! So great to see you two together and I look forward to participating in whatever fruits come from the intersection of both of your work.

[@trottingsparrow]

Thanks for being a catalyst for these coversations

[@TheBlackAce21]

You both knocked it out of the park. Thank you both. We need to think how to incorporate these ideas into our education system.

[@trottingsparrow]

I think we need to disrupt and reorient our current education system.

[@darshanr2369]

This conversation has been powerful and one I will becoming back to for experiential work I am thinking on and developing. My life changed when I ventured into Men’s Work in nature on a New Warrior Training Adventure weekend. So much of what the two of you have discussed, speaks to ideas I have been having and yet, this conversation brings even more fuel for what I am working toward. I am definitely interested in finding a way to to take part in a weekend with Kyle or the future Vervaeke Weekend you’re also talking about. Thank you both so much!

[@trottingsparrow]

Thanks for sharing. I am also working on a side project to bring this ecology of practices into men's work. Let's have a chat. Hope yo see you at one of our Embedded Experiences

[@trottingsparrow]

Super stoked about this. Please let me know if you have any questions or if anyone want to express these topics further.

[@BeMotley]

Highly recommend attending one of Kyle's embedded experiences!

[@ben-sanford]

It is good to see you both in dialogos around something that is so real yet unrealized. It is deeply sacred to me and has so much to offer🌍🔥🙏

[@trottingsparrow]

Thanks for all the ways you've contributed to this conversation seen and unseen

[@adamthompson1300]

I'd be interested in this!

[@trottingsparrow]

Yes🎉 our Embedded Experiences is a good way this year otherwise John and I will be bringing thisnto life in the summer of 2025

[@slicersharp]

Wonderful ! Always enjoy listening to your conversations

[@trottingsparrow]

Thanks for sharing

[@schoolofspiritualalchemy]

A fascinating conversation which gives different words, same meaning and experience, to what I see in my work as a seer and healer. We cannot discount the "Human Energetic Environment" - the fields of unseen energy, which make up our multidimensional experience. I am really enjoying your conversations John and very excited to have finally found a scientist who speaks my language. Thank you, Lilah (Cape Town, South Africa)

[@BeMotley]

Please seriously consider holding that retreat! 🔥🔥🔥

[@trottingsparrow]

Can't wait. Gonna make it happen one way or another

[@nathanchasse8189]

Agreed!!

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

For urban hyper-differentiated folks the return to Nature is in itself a Practice.

[@trottingsparrow]

Exactly we need to bring back our Natire Connection practices

[@andrewgray2029]

I'm interested in learning more about supporting the VF, and embedded and dialogical practices.

[@InterfaceGuhy]

Ditto

[@trottingsparrow]

stoked ! it's gonna happen summer of 2025 stay tuned!

[@trottingsparrow]

@@InterfaceGuhy stoked ! it's gonna happen summer of 2025 stay tuned!

[@mills8102]

This notion of epistemic vulnerability is an important flipside of epistemic humility. This whole discussion was very, very resonant for me personally. Dialectic into dialogos has been transformative for me and actually has provided a great framework for exploring the development of social skills. I really like the characterization of 'deep listening exercises.' Great framing. The exploration of memory is very important. This wasn't directly discussed but the blending of working memory and the subconscious is an important area that has a lot of variability and merits investigation. Spiritual language seems to be an incredibly rich and efficient signal and take this as a plus or a minus but it doesn't lend itself to conscious manipulation from within that space. It is predicted on surrender (which leads into that space of vulnerability). Thank you both very much for another very fruitful discussion. 🙏

[@trottingsparrow]

Thanks for the reflection. There are so many directions we could have gone but you gotta follow the logs amd go where it leads.

[@erjonsadiku5341]

Thank you for doing this? I appreciate what you share from your deep knowledge❤❤! Next to my books I have three of your five little statues. The images of the nature on this video, are beautiful, never seen before'''!

[@camorion1]

I’m definitely interested in participating in an in person VF and Kyle Koch event. I hope it happens.

[@trottingsparrow]

Definitely have to make it happen. It's not an option at this point ❤

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

At 40:00 question arises how to translate qualitative meaninfulness into quantitative practice ?

[@trottingsparrow]

Yes, a very left brained logical approach of finding balance. This is more clear in physical adaptations using the idea of time under tension. But even in the reps and sets frame intensity can enhance or inhibit progres. There is no clear way forward but we need to try.

[@DominNecov]

Little late to the party for comments, but I would love to do a dialectic into dialogos like workshop in person in the wooods. I did one of them on zoom and I remember thinking the whole time; this would be so much better in person. The instructors could move between groups, give little pointers/corrections/nudges. I could imagine one big bone fire in the middle and then each group of four starting their session with a fire building excerise to centre and home people instead of the usual mediation and check in bit. Would be super excited to see this happen hopefully in southern ontario somewhere so it's not too hard for me to attend :)

[@projectmalus]

Had to pause at evolving the evolvability. It seems to me that observing and memory are very close and the evolvability is also the allowing of space here for that assertive ingress of environment to be coherent. The playing with this space takes two avenues, the 3 card monte of suggested value in divided and sequestered bits, where splitting the thing up more gives more, and the chopping up of time and juxtaposing it in a way which messes with the propositional. They both seem to be the result of a feeling of superiority over nature and parents who want the best for their kids, entitlement and permissions. The entitlement itself messes with the propositional (observing curtailed) and memory with backwards looking permissions and its ownership difficulties. I like how a corporative model for ownership of this type of wild space can allow the right size of family to refresh the individuals and provide a safe space. When outsiders want to succeed in rural areas the residents respect big money, speculators or not, the speculators are your competition and they have lots of capital. Group of hippies can succeed but they get isolated. The corporative model in business seems to go wrong when that family is played with, chopped out of the commons and sequestered, assigned family values in an uneasy context with the uber value from the higher level and the entitlement with legal permissions as buffer. A new political level is possible there between family and municipal, where the size of the community isn't given to the control of propositional speculators. Like the other, it's just another form of capitalism where the efficacious size of the group falls into the 3 card monte played from who controls capital, where too big and too small are advantaged. A food forest in or around the community solves the most for the least and is wall dissolving trust builder space that provides a yield and income. Loose templates can govern where ownership is confirmed. Make these the hubs. Thanks for the video.

[@jgarciajr82]

I'm close to Boulder, Colorado. I'm interested in growing up 🙏🙌❤️🤯🔥👍🤔

[@trottingsparrow]

We are hosting an Embedded Experiences near Boulder June 14-16

[@XC0r3]

The meaning is ones descriptive experience. Ones path is ones definition

[@danchiappe]

The Baldwin effect :-)

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes!! Thanks Dan.

[@mellonglass]

I am happy John is decommissioning the present ecology of academia, that is dry, linear, mean and memory dependant. What use is memory retention if we use the practice of knowing where to find knowledge? Collective amnesia of nature? The reason to exist without names and labels, because names and labels prevent the story of wonder. Eckhart Tolle said as much, enter the forest without your present book of names, a tree is never just a tree, nor is it all the names we thought of, because of the fear of knowing. Time of mental change is a honeymoon period, the mind has a medical application of time, the doctor recommends two weeks and then return, the hope being, the truth of healing is 13 days and maybe 15 is close to no return. A practice is not a thought, but a time with. The telling is always, ‘go practice’ the resistance is always, ‘I don’t have time, I know enough’. Knowledge over experience, opinion over conversation, conversation is the sharing of opinions. I’d argue a ‘silk road’ has no virtual setting, that the word is convenient to the reality. Understand this, astronauts camp together, so they know each other to exist under the most extreme dependence’s on each other in the future, anyone can do this.

[@trottingsparrow]

...no two trees are the same to raven no two branches are the same to wren. If what a tree or a bush does is lost on you, you are surely lost"

[@rsandy4077]

What does “martial arts” resources mean?

[@trottingsparrow]

Can you clarify what this is in reference to?

[@XC0r3]

Collective

[@Jacob011]

Niche construction?

[@trottingsparrow]

Conveying out niche is so hard

[@Jacob011]

Every time Kyle says "like", take a shot of vodka - you'd be dead a quarter way through.

[@trottingsparrow]

Hahaha I know I'm so ashamed 😢

[@toneyoursoul]

​@@trottingsparrownothing wrong with filler words! Besides, *you* were the one on the call with John, not the other way around, so nothing to be ashamed about 😎

[@trottingsparrow]

@@toneyoursoul thank you. I'm just hoping it doesn't take away from thr message or take peoplenout of the experience

[@knoweagle888]

The Tao that is told cannot be known The way that is shown is not your own As above, as soul below Yin and Yang and Ouroboros Forty days and forty nights The darkest days forewarns enlight The Unus Mundus, the Axis Mundi Your inner compass will guide you through thee Dante’s and Virgil’s inferno journey The Duat retaught the justice and mercy A sacred plane of many names Arcane domain no frame profanes The Few have seen where Jacob dreamed Therein between each conscious stream…

[@geoffreydawson5430]

I want to have a normal job. Makes my mind boggle as to why people join TV cooking shows or wilderness adventures. Probably my upbringing. I once was trekking alone, lost in pouring rain wadding down a flooding river trying to find the hut I was staying in that night. I was about to sleep under a rock when a light shone on the other side of the river with no source of illumination. There was a sign saying HUT. My head torch batteries died as I entered the hut. Just one of many bizarre holy spirit experiences. You are not earth, fire, wind or water. Or a theological entity for politics. Bring all that energy going out back into your heart. Oh. From a Forest tradition perspective. I know academics use Zen (adaptation of Buddhism with Western philosophy) for its adaptability, I have been there and done that. Bored the crap out of me. Meaning crisis? Neoconservatism.

[@bunjidogg]

Thes guys in academia live in their own reality.

[@trottingsparrow]

I think we all live in our own reality. That's why I believe in the importance of being in a shared space/environment so we can better share the reality

[@mellonglass]

Refugees of spirit, meeting the pilgrimage in words, headed by the natural world to participate in. It’s not an asphalt highway, it’s the stuff without the feed pipes of the matrix. Suddenly intelligence looks fun in its awakening of philosophy meeting the dictionary of derogatory terms. Hunter gatherer = gardener, observer, grazing, planting, experimenting, living in, learning and finding home place within nature, not above it. Lex Fridman goes to the Amazon, it’s a movement to live experience, not be a Jurassic tourist in fear of 100 years in Disney monsters, ladybird books and gentrified rationality in the romantic telling of the fictional world, or even the writers with PTSD who never swam with whales.