Is IFS a Path to Self-Knowledge or Self-Deception? Insights from Kasra Mirzaie

[@nathanhassallpoetry]

This conversation is absolutely wonderful. Thank you John, for hosting Kasra. Kasra's openness to discussing a numinous experience is fundamental (as you have done in other places re: Hermes as psychopomp) as we still live in cultures (in the West I suspect, but I know the US and the UK best) that suppresses these experiences. Even many typically religious people can have a dismissive cynicism towards them. I was also enlightened by the idea of people with trauma searching for meaning, and how to draw significance out of as, what Kasra said, "as a force that wants to communicate something to me as a messenger." I've spent a few years watching your work, John, and never truly written to you here. The crisis of meaning is something I think about deeply, and how it intersects with poetry is the domain I operate in. One of these methods is writing it, the "participatory knowing," but poets building up various frameworks of knowledge is as important as you and the people you are talking to in psychotherapeutic, cognitive science, and other fields. I was warmed that you mentioned Blake, and I believe a greater crossover between poets and poetry, and these other subjects, will help reestablish meaning. If you haven't already, I suggest reading Kathleen Raine's book "That Wonderous Pattern," who gives a perennial and neoplatonic perspective of a poet about the Imagination (she capitalized it). Her poetic heroes are Yeats, Blake, and and poets who deeply connect with the imaginal, and I see great intersection here. Would love to discuss this further and I plan on making some KZbin videos about Raine on my channel, which I post poetry content on weekly. I look forward to more discussions. Thank you to both of you once again. Nathan

[@treyhuntley1164]

John, I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing! There are two people im not sure if you have crossed paths with, but I believe the conversation would be rich. One is Josh Schrei, who has a podcast called The Emerald, and the other is Dr. Bayo Akomolafe. I am finishing my PhD in transpersonal Psychology, and I have seen such a beautiful overlay in your guy's work, which has also profoundly influenced my work. Thank you again for all your help do!

[@MasoudJohnAzizi]

Very insightful conversation, thank you both! Kasra Mirzaie's understanding of "Farsi/Dari metaphysics and spiritual traditions" coupled with expertise in modern western psychotherapy affords him a profound cognitive capacity to understand and communicate "the heart". That which Persian, Afghan, Russian, and Asian spiritual traditions refer to as "the heart" = that which Dr. Iain McGilchrist refers to as "cognition framed from the perspective of the right hemisphere of the brain".

[@blakeobeans]

Vervaeke is having the best conversations on the internet.

[@nathanhassallpoetry]

These are sensational. A rich intellectual learning experience backed up by a necessary emotional openness. It's more complex than this, but feels like a necessary threading of the left and right brain.

[@cam103]

As an aspiring therapist, I’ve been loving the recent IFS thread. It’s helping me finally root the budding cogsci/transcendent naturalism into a therapeutic/imaginal practice. Thank you to John, Kasra and all the other amazing guests who’ve contributed to this growing conversation.

[@tobiassicken2262]

So rich, dense and so inspiring to watch and listen to you. I thought more than once that you could make a whole long-form podcast out of 10-minute segments. The work of the both of you is so important. Thank you.

[@MaidenMonster]

This conversation calls to mind a line from prayer I remember from my catholic upbringing that always caused me to ponder: “o happy fault, o necessary sin of Adam which gained for us so great a redeemer.” There is a way to honor even our self deceptive nature for the affordances it makes for us.

[@CoreofShane]

And “where sin abounds, grace abounds the more”

[@ericjohnson9857]

😊😅❤❤ 8:12 😅❤ 8:25 😊 8:37

[@Lucasvoz]

This series of episodes on the same topic with different people who bring their own unique perspectives is truly refreshing. I wasn't familiar with Kasra but I really enjoyed his thoughts. Great job on these, John!

[@BF-non]

Kasra has such good energy

[@nathanhassallpoetry]

Sure does. What a brilliant conversation.

[@brycelingle]

The idea of God proposed at the beginning of this video maps beautifully on the the Orthodox understanding of God and the essence-energy distinction.

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

I loved this talk so much! Really one of your best, Thank you! Very much looking ahead of the next.

[@psyfiles7351]

It’s intriguing to consider where the concise wisdom spoken by the “spirit of deception” came from!!!calling it archetype makes it no less mysterious! Super conversation thank you both

[@mousumimukerji4075]

Dr Vervaeke I would really like you to acquaint yourself with the psychotherapy modality of AEDP developed by Diana Fosha. It is literally love therapy, taking IFS with attachment theory to their final culmination

[@DragonNo1]

I was impressed by the concept of "spirit of deception", which takes away the negative connotation of being an unavoidable sin, but transforming it into an opportunity to seek truth. Also, I was shocked to realize that the power of trauma consists of the power of saliency of experiences that deprive us from the agency to make sense of them. It would be nice if you both approach this subject in a future dialogue. Thank you.

[@analytic_daily_meal]

I am listening and watching the talk in this video continually and have thanksgiving mind for insight mentioned in this talk. Many Korean people understood logistics as "he needs job for life" but I learned from this talk more fluent and communicative sense, logistics as "media meaning is carried by," and don't restrict each individuals's demand for their own interested topic. This is what I think as highlight of the two prominent scholars are giving to me, IFS is self-knowledge^^ This is helpful sense when talking about identity too. The communication by English language is with this sense more fluent and friendly way. I learned much from the videos in this channel today too ^^

[@elenchikos]

If we didn't experience sin, downfall, and self-deception how would we how would we ever learn compassion for those who experience the same? We would have no idea what others are going through. Also, I think forgiveness is not usually deeply understood. People say they forgive because it's expected of them. Complete forgiveness is the realization, first, that we have done as "bad" or worse than those who wronged us. Even more deeply, there is nothing to forgive because we realize that what we labelled as bad and wrong turns out to have been necessary in the ways John and Kasra pointed out.

[@mills8102]

This subtle distinction between self-deception and Self deception is something I will be chewing on for some time. Excellent discussion. Thank you both for it 🙏

[@grahammoffat9752]

After having 6 months of IFS I was also curious about how the process might transfer to other situations to develop knowledge. While in an intense bout of Covid in 2021 I asked the question to the Covid virus: What is your intention? The very clear and precise answer was: 'To cause division'. Nothing else was added. I have sat with that question and answer for the last three years.

[@logoimotions]

The movement of Tom Holmes from Spirtual Christian to Sufism is also similar to the path of Guenon and Frithjof Schuon both of whom were famous Tradtionalist/Perennialists who championed the esoteric view of reglion versus the exoteric or external/procedural parts of religion

[@gidi1899]

27:55 - The Framing Tool for balancing Cause - "I am X" reframed to "A part of me is X" SO TRUE FOR ME!! * just note the danger of self-cohesion loss due to frequent use of a tension relief self-divider.

[@BrentPinkston]

I believe IFS is dangerous for self application. It is scary to think that individuals, especially those with serious trauma to engage themselves in IFS without proper understanding. As part of a meditation practice I have been using the concept of a higher self, who is not stamping out the ego, and remaining curious about the thoughts that come up without interacting with them as parts. Would love to hear other experiences with self application of IFS, but I have definitely steered clear.

[@rebekkahaascetin3733]

This is so good, i enjoy it so much. I share the inclusive view and surfing through the different fields of wisdom and mythology, images and methods and find it exciting, when everything comes together.

[@TheNormallyOpen]

This is a question that I have had for some time now - I appreciate you taking the time to produce this, thank you

[@gidi1899]

I wrote many comments, but I enjoyed the conversation!!!! heart felt a brave display honesty about self a really good video :) thanks !!! thumbs up.

[@jason-iy7vs]

Great conversation. Is the assumption that anyone who practices IFS, even someone who has not read Jung, has the potential to encounter and identify some of these archetypal figures? Or does the identification follow a deep study of Jung or related philosophers?

[@brandis3309]

I loved this. Open, poetic, honest. Good stuff.

[@warrenlockie3154]

Many thanks. Your conversation helped me in many ways.

[@benkelley84]

This was a great conversation. Thanks!

[@CaptainPhilosophical]

This makes me think of some of the archetypal voices I have encountered with psychedelics. Perhaps they are always present, but plant medicines allow the other parts to step aside for a moment so the archetypal voices can be heard. One moment that I'll never forget was when i encountered "God" in an Aya journey. My intentions for that evening were to know if I was on the right path with my chosen spiritual studies. When I encountered "God" in the form of 3 stars 🌟 in infinite darkness, I asked my question. The reply was "Why does it matter what words you choose to study if you always know The One exists?"

[@royaebrahim2449]

I recently had this realization that the death of god and death of art might be more related to each other that I would like to think. I think at the beginning of time, God and worship practices was so hyper to people that the idea of nonexistence of God or life without worship wouldn't even occur to them and I think currently God is so abstracted that even a religious person's idea of God is too abstract and far from realness. I also think this is the story of art.In a way, at the beginning, art was so functioned based and craft based, and as time progressed, it got abstracted into nothingness .the difference is that we save Art by bringing back the emphasis on skill and make real once again ,whereas I don't think the diety could be revived,anyways ,thank you, John❤❤❤

[@Jacob011]

My God! 😮 Literally today before watching this I watched a few of Tom Holmes' videos. I came to him because I asked an AI to suggest books on parts work other than IFS.

[@eqapo]

53:34 spiritual bypassing is a diagnostic term from without, but amazing to finally "pin the tail" by naming the mechanism of "idolizing the self," which is a species of reification, a propositionalizing of relationality which degrades it to noun rather than adverb. Thats where you get the nihilism of Nothingness rather than the no-thingness which affords our finite transcendence. Properly oriented in that "mode of becoming", we can be in religio to the "Sacred Self," rather than the "having mode" of the "Idol Self."

[@nicbarth3838]

yes well put

[@spearofsolomon]

Thank you for a thought-provoking conversation. One thing I wonder about the spirit of self-deception: doesn't it often show us things that are true, even profound, as a means of diverting our attention from something essential? I would be wary of assuming that the archetypal deceiver is being honest for once.

[@nathanhassallpoetry]

Do you mean many layers of deception? As in, self deception is so deceptive it might tell you the truth but be more of a trickster function that you challenge it and are therefore decieved?

[@spearofsolomon]

@@nathanhassallpoetry That'd not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about the serpent in the garden saying "for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened," or Satan quoting Scripture to Christ in the wilderness. The deceiver can say a true thing, but not the whole truth, or wrap that truth in lies, or apply it toward wrong action.

[@brendonlake1522]

There is an admonishment in the book of Ecclesiastes verse 7 which has been puzzling, even troubling to Christians. It reads: 16 Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise- why destroy yourself? 17 Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool- why die before your time? 18 It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

[@elenchikos]

I think that idea of felix culpa (fortunate Fall) comes originally from St. Augustine though I wouldn't be surprised if Origen said it too because he taught Universal Salvation (Apokatastasis ton panton - the standing back together of all things) in which even Satan is redeemed. It's also pretty evident to me that, if he didn't say it outright Meister Eckhart understood it. These verses appear in the Exsultet (aka Praeconium) Hymn of the Roman missal sung at the lighting of the Paschal candle at Easter: O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum, quod Christi morte delétum est! O felix culpa, quæ talem ac tantum méruit habére Redemptórem! O truly necessary sin of Adam Destroyed completely by the death of Christ. O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer.

[@brendonlake1522]

I am reminded of the movie 'Identity' (2003) which would be a fascinating watch in the framing of IFS.

[@TrinaMason]

Are you going to be bringing Robert falconer on? I saw that he mentioned you in his book called the others within us.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

Mengzi believed that these virtues are part of our human nature, and that they can be cultivated and developed through education, self-reflection, and moral practice. In this sense, one could argue that the idea of a "divine spark" or an innate goodness within each person is consistent with Mengzi's teachings. The “four sprouts" theory, argues that every person is born with four innate virtues: compassion, shame, modesty, and the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

[@AnthonyL0401]

1:00:30 IFS speculations made practical with explanation

[@Ihopeitsnottoobig]

I really appreciate the academic, spiritual, philosophical side of the issues of reciprocal opening and anagogic practice through the subjective medium of the "heart," but I feel we lack a framework and a bridge of practical integration in the West of these concepts of deep knowledge. The east has tantric practices, and other versions of the sort, but the west has forgone the practices of self-hypnosis in favor for the "rational." Due to political turmoil in the history of dynamic psychiatry, and the connection with religion were probably the 2 driving factors for this departure from this embodied knowledge and reciprocal communion with ones self. However, I think we need a revival of hypnotic practice that can be bridged with modern sciences and appreciated on its own grounds as a legitimate form and modality of experience worthy of literary study and discussion. Unfortunately hypnosis has been under major stigma the last 120 years, no thanks to the mistakes of the early pioneers and their disciples. I think this communion and this revival of connection with the "heart" will open up creative inspiration that propels us over the "meaning crisis." It's really just been a forgetting process. And a cultural blanket that hasn't allowed for that side of humanity to operate with open arms. On the contrary actually.

[@Ihopeitsnottoobig]

Edit: Also, when John asked the question "Can the parts themselves bullshit us and deceive us for their own survival at our expense," the answer is undoubtedly, unequivocally, and all the time. This is the work of Pierre Janet, and Jung took it further to include a whole system of representative psychodynamics termed "Complexes." The internal parts have their own autonomy and degree of valence to the ego of the individual concerned. To the degree the "parts" or "complexes" are identified with, are proportional to the degree they extract energy for their own survival and maintenance from you, the organism. This isn't to reify any little personalities in your head, but more so the subjective components become encoded neurologically, for later use and reactivation in similar contexts for retrieval. It may not make sense then from 3rd person, but it makes complete sense from the subjective point of view, and it's rational. The system the individual finds themselves embedded in at the moment of projection has the potential to deceive through identification with the object of "trigger," but also possesses the way out, in terms of coming to consciousness, or consciousness through the eyes of the other (Hegel). It is then the job of the therapist to build the foundation for which they can feel secure enough to land on solid ground before you pull the rug from underneath them metaphorically speaking. If you do it too abruptly, they will defend their "part/complex" through the cognitive function of reason and rationality. If you do it disrespectfully they won't trust you enough to attempt to make the ego transition. It has to be the right state of consciousness (ASC's) (Hypnosis) if necessary, and it must be done under conditions of rapport. There's never a point in arguing with anyone, because from their point of view it's completely consistent with all forms of knowing tied to their being, or in other words, their reason function doesn't matter to them because their other forms of knowing aren't in coordination with that function. They don't have the capacity or concern to be "rational" because too many other evaluative strategies such as emotional resonance, relational status, and perhaps biological profile do not agree that, that mode of functioning is appropriate for maintaining homeostasis balance within the wider context.

[@MasoudJohnAzizi]

Great points 👍. That which Persian and Eastern spiritual traditions refer to as "the heart" = that which Dr. Iain McGilchrist refers to as "cognition framed from the perspective of the right hemisphere of the brain" = that which has no utility to humans conditioned by consumer-cultures and narcissism (right-brain impotence).

[@gidi1899]

12:30 - self deception that grows a person to be separated from the community and family It's prob about handling a painful social situation, with some effective behavior for pain relief at the expense of blocking basic intentions like "stepping into a conversation" or "participating" , and some of those, do get to exist, but in a very restrictive manner. some ppl grow up not realizing the conversation quality of helping with emotion management. And I do feel the root cause of this kind of self deception - is ppl's actions/understandings being taken for granted or dismissed fast with the notion "it's their issue, their ideas, who am I to challenge that, I am not comfortable defending my actions and I don't see why I should or why they would want to". It's a probelm because ppl need a good experience with 'standing to a challenge' in order to find value in changing their behavior, and to start that, it might be enough to pose a challenge and mention the better result, and leave it to the other person for this point. The truth is we should share disagreements, and in a way that doesn't challenges ego, but invites to a good shared experience (all is needed is for the questioned issue to be the group target and not a personal one). That kind of good communication is based in Open Resiprocity with a variable measure of "open", but we should try to achieve that fast opening with strangers just so we could exchange feedback. (speaking as someone that doesn't meet (or talk to) many ppl during the day)

[@gidi1899]

If one believes in somthing one can't test enough to be sure of, then is it (or when is it) a "proper self deception"? I mean, sometimes not being able to experience trust is a survival problem, and one who can "fake trust" gains a survival benefit. I personaly feel the process of self correcting exaggurated beliefs is terrably hard.

[@bobann3566]

Balance is not a natural state. It's very hard to maintain. I was at the childrens playground, playing on the teeter totter with my children, trying to keep them perfectly balanced and I could never maintain it. However, when I harmonized my motions with the motions of the teeter totter, I was able to keep it going until the children tired.

[@colorfulbookmark]

In some cultures, love and forgiveness are conceived as foolness so is laughable when someone like me did it. It is later said to be another real foolness conditions, so is very hard thing for the experienced victims. However, Dr.Vervaeke and his fellows talks are different, which can give real confidence to self and therapies around IFS, so is trustworthy but I am afraid this is another affirmation that continues otherwise applies. The affirmation works in this way many times, so someone like me becomes silent and "silence" is conceived otherwise too.

[@pantherstealth1645]

A+ 👏👏👏👏👏

[@deepzan1]

Parallels with Rosenberg and NVC

[@sean2662]

49:50 relevance realization then busies itself to keep up with the treasure in bellatrix lestrange's vault as it multiplies upon itself

[@JohnRiver490]

41:53 that which makes us adaptive, makes us prone to self deception...

[@fransxescoli4834]

Hey John. Did you receive my emails about the Flower Power Project? I would appreciate receiving some feedback on it.

[@spaceanarchist1107]

Maybe there is no such thing as deception, only alternate realities. When you encounter something that appears to be deceptive, you are looking down an alternate branch of reality that is equally valid in its own right. And it is up to you to decide which to actualize in your personal experience.

[@dianehillier2336]

When I get into loop of self condemnation I say to myself “in the name of Christ get out!” Satan is refered to as the great accuser and does not want good things for us. Should I instead embrace and welcome him and ask him what he would like to teach me? But then again he is known to be the “father of lies”. What to do?

[@gidi1899]

14:26 - as a group of ppl carrying "bad behaviors", we are still getting along with each other, why? is the aspect of self deception maybe less effective? compare to other aspects of ppl that allow them to get along. All "bad understandings and behaviors" are a response to achiving personal (common) goals in common social situations, and generationally we learned to synch those goals with our social analysis which has the same roots in all of us, and any correction in behavior speads in a manner limited by the social climate. Our errors are bound to the same roots. Means that no one can be judged as Evil, but only on maintaining a "harmful branch". I just wish the court will be wise enough to convey the difference, and the faith the offended ppl will put in the subject's ability to modify the branch while not giving up (trust, ties) on the social system right to exist.

[@sean2662]

41:48 the power of a generative gradient

[@sean2662]

like a buoy breaking on the surface and simultaneously into a new medium that slowly arrests its momentum and convinces the buoy to again break on the surface

[@sean2662]

perhaps if you dive deep enough you can kiss god at each zenith

[@wilmingtonlongman]

Looking to contact Kasra. Any way someone can get word to him?

[@BF-non]

34:00 John this ad integration feels like the end of the video. People say "thank you for watching" at the end. Try a different hook into the ad.

[@oliverjamito9902]

A little Child born "i" longing to LEARN!,

[@oliverjamito9902]

Time who ye can commune?

[@projectmalus]

at 25 min the affective emotional response, good one. Part of the enhanced ground effect for moving, the trick is to hold it and assert another allowance, perhaps from a different object, to bounce together and capture that energy so as to move, as being. edit: this extends as care beyond the human collective, otherwise circles in an increasingly flat ontology, so even though people have different responses to this it's statistically meaningful in that more and more therapists are required. I would make them the heart of the community and give them free housing, power and water, and a place to garden.

[@swerremdjee2769]

What is ifs?

[@esod6527]

What is IFS?

[@chrisparker2118]

Internal family system, a model for pyschotherapy.

[@oliverjamito9902]

How else thy shared image to be able? Remember if Remember my shared image in front of thee? Little LIGHTS with a CANDY as an offering to comfort the COMFORTER. Offsprings preserve from all shared "i" AM MEEKS will say, what is "WORTH MORE THAN THIS CANDY"? MANY with great riches nor wealth looking afar off. Why looking afar off in front?

[@gidi1899]

If I'd make good sense of how god fits in the world, my agency to believe in him will be replaced with the agency of keeping my memory of the understanding of the fittings. And when I approach death, my memory will fade, and I'll feel alone. So, I decide not look for how GOD fits, but how systems work and sync (the body, the ppl, the planet).

[@projectmalus]

around 48 min a sphere and Whitehead's concept, or Michael Crichton's Sphere, where a psychologist is the hero, an interesting role with two funnys as a channel maybe, or a trap for light alternative, with endless return. Instead, he's the anti-hero by giving up the golden whatever, fleece, chalice, object holder, orb.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Some be awake! Surrounding thee dress in sheep clothing!

[@projectmalus]

There's this bird in my locale that starts at first blush of dawn and goes straight thru to dusk (stopping only for eagles) that on a bird show I heard called "like a person at a cocktail party" with their call "is That you? Yes it is. Is that you? Yes it is: is that You? yes it is, is that you, yes it Is.

[@charlesly]

The proof is in the eating of the pudding.

[@bobvillanueva712]

The teachings and the practice of THE BUDDHA deal with a lack of self-discipline, yea? Dogmas are not needed, yea?......................................

[@projectmalus]

Sin as a failure to love wisely, just before 16 min. Perhaps a good tool (since people are different and need different tools) is another wonderful "tool for fools" :) to understand, in this case humorous as different than funny, with beautiful and grotesque as the other set for making proper sets to leap thru. three leaps in 4 channels, some shared. Deliberately going to a standup comic (which is humorous) to be outraged by the juxtaposition in extraordinary way of ordinary things. Sharing in the intelligent response by repetitive yet enabling actions, drawing that back down so as to leap out again, the grotesque from the funny, the funny allowing the grotesque, the whole thing humorous and beautiful in the understanding and meaning. Grotesque and funny emphasized by loss of humorous and beautiful. The humorous as inside channels while beautiful outside, providing for leaps, where the human only separate from the world. The beautiful as the intelligence of the world, outside and now diminished so as to emphasize the grotesque and funny set, so humor is commandeered by a marriage of church, state and business allowing first self then only group ownership. when funny and beautiful are what's emphasized as humorous and grotesque are diminished, this is the image as propositional, where state, religion and business are married and property rights move to the group, and you can fit yourself to that in another way. A dancing of forms, misunderstood. so the grotesque is mis-taken objectification, a trap for light. Note that funny is repeated as a channel, where (going back before person to group in tree with flock mind) this is the mechanism leading to the imaginal, the fire in the circle. A nasty Spring and hungry people watching ruminants chow down, grotesque repeated. After the grass as groom, the loss of humorous and beautiful, dancing between Nature surroundings controlled thru fear internally and that from the groom, where the human has never been masculine, which is funny. Edit: no, it's humorous, but only when realized. Onwards! Awesome guest, a channeled floaty person, how brilliant and I mean that in the best way.

[@markkuykendall5475]

"Sin," damn....ugh. "Sin." Gahhh, to hell with that word. Even the way y'all are using it, like the Greeks did where "sin" just means, "dumbass undignified mistake." Sin is a magical shame-loaded word. Sin....a betrayal of one's human dignity and that which one's humanity deserves....... Oh yeah? And who defines that? Who's authority is qualified to define the essence of humanity and what we deserve or what is beneath our station? Plato? Aristotle? Plotinus? Aquinas? Kant? Or so many of the occultists who basically buy into much of the metaphysics about human dignity with just more complex and less intuitively "reasonable" structure in all the rest of their metaphysics? None of them. Not one. Not Jesus or Buddha either. These people all have thought, regardless if their atheists or devout believers; they've all tried to attach an essence to humans that isn't real. We can damn well see what's real when we look around....actually fearlessly look. We can see all manner of inspiring nobility, pro-social behavior, courage, and sacrifice, we can also see what is obviously simple chimpanzee behavior. I don't even know if Alexander Bard is right when he says "sutra is what we tell people because we don't want them to hate or murder their own children," and I don't even necessarily care if he's right but what I think is golden about that is that it's a right cross directly to the bridge of the nose to anyone who wants to continue to imagine that humans are somehow "special" or "elevated" or somewhat divine; "halfway between God and beast; like the angels save that we have free will" or any other crap that is pure fantasy. We are what we are and what we are has all sorts of stuff in it that is pretty magnificent and glorious in its own way. We don't need scripture or sutra or words like "sin" to mess things up and twist people's minds. How many people have been literally burnt at the stack or stoned to death or thrown in prison and given some sort of record that basically amounts to an indelible Hawthorne-ish scarlet letter because people still think the word "sin" has value for the future of our species?

[@bobann3566]

Who benefits from forgiveness?

[@brandis3309]

Everyone

[@bobann3566]

@@brandis3309 Really? Everyone? Who really benefits from forgiveness?

[@GaiatheSage]

@@bobann3566everyone

[@MrSofuskroghlarsen]

​@@bobann3566 I'd say that forgiveness facilitates growth and mobilization for both the forgiver and the person forgiven.

[@bobann3566]

@@MrSofuskroghlarsen How does forgiving a rapist facilitate his growth and mobilization of what? He got away with his rape and was never held accountable and I have no idea what his name is nor how to get a hold of him to let him know that I forgave him. So how exactly does forgiving him benefit him in any way?

[@InterfaceGuhy]

Golden, Guys 🫶🏼