Enoch Burke Explains John Piper's Christian Hedonism

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[@amauryft]

I am thankful to the Almighty for this new generation of lovers of Jesus who are attached to orthodoxy and faithful doctrine as well as forthcoming on public correction of false douctrines. What a renewal. I thank God for your life brother Jon. Keep alert and keep it tight, the enemy will come for you guys. Will be praying for you.

[@mumsie2739]

I have never been a Piper follower. However, a parent (pastor or layman) can raise children in a Christian home and still have them rebel in adulthood. Parents are not responsible for the actions of adult children.

[@crownmediaservice1362]

I was raised in a devout Christian home and spent 27 years in apostasy, living as a card-carrying agnostic and then wading into the waters of atheism. I now am a chaplain in a county jail running a very fulfilling ministry. it's ultimately God's decision on matters of the heart.

[@CS-bn4un]

@@crownmediaservice1362 Praise God for His working in and now through your life as well.

[@fuzfire]

I am one who has been married, divorced, and remarried. It sounds as if to me from this young man's theology, I'm in an apostasy. Having not only seen the error of my sin and repented, knowing now what I didn't know then, am I in this young man's eyes a perpetual sinner? Thats what I see from most legalistists. It sounds as if this young man believes anyone who calls themselves a Christian can live a perfectly sinless life. In realsville, there is room at The Cross for those who are not perfect in their lived out experience. I get the stay Biblically centered, but hear under tones of perfection that Noone but Jesus/Yeshua has ever actually done. I hope I have not read into this young man's words he does not believe, or you for that matter Jon. I have a family member who thinks I must leave my wife and remain unmarried to stay out of Hell. Its this kind of reasoning I'm leery of Legalism.

[@itube0033]

@@fuzfire Maybe you should listen again the whole interview. You are taking things out of context.

[@tskjesusfreak]

His silence about Social Justice is alarming.

[@exvan3571]

His squish isn't silence. Do some research

[@junang3071]

your obsession about it is more

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@exvan3571 What's squish

[@VillageAlive]

You have mentioned in the past that you might someday become a pastor. All I can say is what you are providing to people like myself, a pastor and 50 years is invaluable. You are helping me navigate the issues to better equip my congregation for what is going on today. Please keep it up don’t stop.

[@alexrodgers9247]

Good for you for encouraging Jon! It can’t be easy to shed God’s light on false teaching!! Thank you Pastor Mike!

[@righteousrocker1769]

I find Enoch's issues with John Piper's sons a red herring. If we are to be judged as pastors or Elders on the conduct of our adult children, then many of us would be ruled out of ministry. I can only think of King David and his family. John Piper is not perfect in his preaching or teaching, but he is a thoughtful and sound teacher. I have benefitted immensely from his books and sermons. He is in the firing line at present, and I may not agree with all he says and does, but I'm convinced he is someone who strives to be honest in his words and deeds. I do not hold to Sam Alberry's handling of scripture or his beliefs about homosexuality, so accept Enoch's critique.

[@JerettOlson]

1 Timothy 3:4-5 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

[@RegularCupOfJoe]

Jeff, I would like to point out a stumbling block in your reasoning: we are not called to follow a person based on their intentions, even their good intentions. Instead, (1 John 4:1) "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

[@dawnmichelle4403]

@@JerettOlson but adult children are not part of one's household.

[@lauren8407]

For elders their children cannot be accused of “debauchery or insubordination”.

[@wk1810]

@@dawnmichelle4403 in biblical times, the father built an addition to the house, where his son's family would live after he was married -- hence, he would still be in his father's house, and, presumably still under his rule/influence. Kind of like, if you converted your basement to an apartment and your son and his family lived there -- he would still be "under your roof" and expected to behave accordingly. Times have changed, but to expect your adult children to respect your authority as their parent still stands.

[@gilbertnicholson1595]

Jon...thanks for being a Berean in having Enoch on to Biblically challenge one of the big names in evangelical circles. He emphasized on more than one occasion the intent of his book is to "examine" the "fruits" of what Piper's Christian hedonism concept teaches in comparison to scripture. We should be doing that with other national Christian leaders and teachers, and our own pastors. You rightly added this was not intended to "bring the hammer down" on John Piper as some sort of witch hunt; but to investigate what he is saying in comparison to the word of God. I also appreciate you raising the issue of Piper's silence on The Gospel Coalition's leftward turn on social justice, especially with him having such a prominent role with the group. Piper's inclusion of Sam Allberry on his website is disturbing and needed to be exposed. It seems a lot of these negative comments are from people emotionally tethered to Piper because of the spiritual influence he has had in their lives. But if the Bereans "searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true," certainly Piper should be subject to the same examination.

[@francesstacy9877]

This conversation introduces the point that there is another side to the popular idea of Christian hedonism. I look forward to a longer discussion or debate on the matter. I appreciate the author for his concern for the Word of God being taught in sincerity and truth along with Jon’s courage to present a topic that tests popular Christianity today against God’s Word. It may feel uncomfortable, but let’s not shy away from being Bereans or dissuade those who contend in that way. Thank you, Jon for this content.

[@emptyhaus]

I’m not a big Piper fan and I don’t particularly like that book or the term Christian Hedonism either, but these arguments are tepid and divisive. I have enjoyed the other Conversations that Matter episodes I’ve heard, but this one really seems to grasp at straws and affirms my convictions of late that I need to spend less time on the Internet.

[@JenniferoftheSea]

Lol. Same! No actually good arguments were given... He did not separate practicing homosexuals with those who struggle with desire while living a celibate, Christian life. Whatever my opinion, he misrepresented Allberry's views. Also, Piper's son had biblical biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage-unfaithfulness by his wife. Let's not start by critiquing people's views and then move into the ungodly, wicked realm of dishonest character assassination.

[@LeoRegum]

Jen Be Nimble That is terrible to hear, but John Piper himself would disagree it is a biblical reason.

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

Our ONLY unity is in Christ the Truth. This video is spot on according to Christ, and these issues matter. Spiritual discernment is very key. We are not partly old and partly new; we are made new. I don't know if I can get through to people who didn't hear the Shepherds voice in the shepherding which is in this video. Our Church leaders are charged to feed and protect the flock; I thank Christ that these brothers don't let social pressure cause them to starve the sheep or let them be taken by wolves. I'll pray for yall.

[@gch8810]

Standing up for truth is not divisive. Those who preach falsehoods are the ones being divisive.

[@mireliom]

I agree brother 100%, that the internet can overwhelm us with multiple Angles of information, to the point that we do need to disconnect from it. So yes, disconnect. That allows us time to bring all our thoughts to the captivity of Christ, to pray to him for wisdom, recoup, and nibble again IN CHRIST on that information that We considered distasteful or far fetch so that we can learn of the diverse and nuance ways that the Devil is victorious, maybe not with us, but with many others seeking the kingdom of God and of his Son.

[@ericb8217]

I had to read him in seminary and I listened to him but never got into Piper. I came out of the Charismatic church and it seemed like the same thing to me. You chase some "Jesus high" in worship or a Christian event and if you don't get it you feel awful. Joy becomes a form of legalism. If you don't feel it you're sinning.

[@theschrocks2405]

Eric b you clearly don’t understand Piper and what he preaches if that is what you got out of him.

[@carinabakewell2311]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4LKioyGaMRgZ7s

[@carinabakewell2311]

Brad Schrock www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@aaronb9686]

@@theschrocks2405 whatever.

[@JonathanGrandt]

It’s incredible to consider how many doctrines are covered by Martin Luther’s warning.

[@gj5990]

Excellent, thanks for sharing. An old church of mine followed Piper closely and they loved to call a few people Pharisees who “loved the Word too much...like the Pharisees”. Direct quote. People who find joy in the Word, studying and obeying it and aren’t living off emotional experiences or seeking signs and wonders are dangerous to the Church, in their eyes.

[@EPHESIANS_5..11__Lady]

They sounded somewhat like Tim Keller.

[@timverduin6096]

Thanks Jon, this video was extremely helpful for me, as this has always been something I've wondered about. You've provided great insight into Tim Keller's teachings, as well as John Piper, and so I've been equally curious about D.A. Carson as well. Do you have any videos on him? If not, can I put in a request? Thanks!

[@tulligman]

And tonight this man sits in a prison cell for his religious believes. The people that went before me fought valiantly for our constitutional rights here in Ireland but the state has just trampled all over this mans rights to religious believe,freedom of speech and his right to work and make a living.I'm ashamed of what my nation has become.

[@mairedaly4926]

He can leave prison at anytime and is choosing to stay I think you should check out the Burkes Channel kzbin.info

[@barend4803]

Where are the rest of Irish ?

[@Mary_Kraensel]

For me, personally, I've never found the allure of John Piper. I never heard of him growing up and only heard of him about 3-4 years ago when I came back to Christ (I'm 45) and really started looking into theology and doctrine for the first time. I count it a co-equal blessing and mercy that I wasn't swayed by many of these wayward preachers.

[@theschrocks2405]

Mary Kränsel ...you don’t “come back to Christ” ...keep searching the scriptures. John Piper is far from “these wayward preachers”.....this video paints a very unfair representation of him. 🧡🙏🏽

[@danicewilson916]

Thank you for your podcasts which remind us to compare our leaders teachings to the Word. I do want to express concern for Mr. Burke’s thoughts on the behavior of Piper’s grown children and how that directly reflects on him. There are many godly parents who have done their best and still have children go astray. This seems very legalistic and an error young Christians without grown children often make as they haven’t yet lived through these challenges. This casts doubt on some of Mr Burke’s other characterizations that may be right on target.

[@stephenfennell]

Perhaps the Biblical requirement is limited to ruling one's children while they are growing up, not once they leave home? Certainly God does require an elder to be able to "[rule] well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity." This implies ruling his children while they are growing up in his house. The passage is 1 Timothy 3:2ff: "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" Titus 1 says similar things more briefly.

[@dianaknapp1725]

This was very helpful. Thank you for this conversation. What are you thoughts on Dane Ortlund and his new book, Gentle and Lowly?

[@kimolson1547]

Piper teaches to fight sin in a daily battle. He has never condoned homosexuality. This is very wrong to misrepresent him in this way or to connect these two men as if they are teaching the same thing.

[@kookpatrol7490]

He didn’t misrepresent him. Re read the title one more time

[@jasonwalker5679]

It seems that many commenters are more adept at attempting to a defense of Piper, than asking the honest, and ‘ok to ask’ question of whether he is steering himself into winds contrary to the Word. “Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?”

[@ronniegagnon9680]

Thank you again John for your clarity on kickin up the snakes in the weeds of false teaching

[@jackiemelton2770]

Aside from his writings on Christian hedonism, have you considered Piper's "Look at the Book" series at desiring God.org? I have found that expository look at the Bible to be very helpful. Of course, each and every Christian is called on to test all teachers against the scripture and it is our individual duty and responsibility to do so. We should not be delegating that duty and responsibility to John Piper, nor to Piper's critics.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Jackie Melton hi, if you look on the new Calvinist channel it has good information on John piper..kzbin.info/www/bejne/imPHgWh3opyVl7c

[@carinabakewell2311]

www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@kristianrsimmons]

Carina Bakewell nope.

[@unforgivingsketches]

Maybe I’m not analytical enough, but I always thought Piper and desiringGod did a great job at being well-rounded in their teaching, inclusive of the whole of scripture. Their archives are a vast resource and his teaching always appeared to be sound. I never would have thought his teachings were heretical or too hedonistic. Am I the only one? Maybe I should work on being more critical (in a good way)🧐

[@theschrocks2405]

brantley no, not in this one. This video is disturbing. There is a point when things are taken too far. This is it!

[@carinabakewell2311]

Here’s an expose about John Piper www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@gch8810]

For the record, Jon never claimed that John Piper was heretical. He merely said that he finds problems with some of Piper's theology.

[@worldupsidedown1]

Piper is also a Theistic Evolutionist like Keller. That in addition to his big promotion of Sam Allberry & his conferencing with known false teachers is a big red flag. Piper himself teaches a lot of error if you look into it. He says he wouldn’t protect his wife if their home was invaded by an intruder. He also promoted the Covid nonsense. These show schisms in his doctrine.

[@paddycoyle6840]

Got the book. Burke uses scripture where as pastors in opposition use philosophy. Well done Enoch, others poisoning the Christian youth are Vaughan Roberts. David Bennett.

[@Landis_Grant]

John Piper could never aspire to be Hugh Hefner’s successor so Piper invented Christian Hedonism instead.

[@junang3071]

clearly both of you don't really know Piper

[@gch8810]

Harris has read a lot of Piper books. So, in terms of theology, yes, he does know him pretty well.

[@davidrogers3920]

Thanks for this interview. Sam Allberry has been promoted at my Presbyterian church, and to my dismay those with homosexual desires in our congregation are told they can't change these desires. The power of the gospel is denied. One person with homosexual desires preaches regularly too. There seems to be a feminising of what it means to be a Christian man happening at the same time.

[@marlak1104]

Note Paul said, “such were some of you,” past tense when addressing the Corinthian believers cleansed by Christ. Something is wrong when persons who profess faith in Christ identify themselves by the desires or temptations of the natural man, who is spiritually dead.

[@ZephaniahL]

Horrible.

[@kimolson1547]

With all due respect your guest doesn’t understand Piper’s writings at all. It’s not at all about having joy in it of itself, nor as just an emotional experience, or ignoring sin, as long as you have joy. He is teaching that loving God and being satisfied in Christ is what our heart longs for and in that our souls will be satisfied. It’s pretty simple. The more we love the Lord and find our worth and satisfaction in him the more we will follow him, become more like him, and give our lives for others. This is a total misrepresentation of JP.

[@Izthefaithful]

Very well stated

[@carinabakewell2311]

Kim Olson www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@davidw5441]

For the most part I have really enjoyed listening to John Piper’s sermons and reading his books. I also love Piper’s great teaching on the doctrines of grace but his writings on politics and his disrespect of former President Trump I hate.

[@globescape4771]

Can anyone post links of where Piper downplays homosexuality?

[@carinabakewell2311]

globescape here’s what he says ...kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5PUaXmVjJZ9rLM

[@carinabakewell2311]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7YqWhtrtmYjNk

[@exvan3571]

@@carinabakewell2311 Keep droppin' that link. Excellent work.

[@globescape4771]

@@carinabakewell2311 That video had nothing to do with him downplaying homosexuality

[@crownmediaservice1362]

@@carinabakewell2311 I also immediately discredit anyone who makes a blanket statement and then turns off "Comments" let's have a healthy discussion...(The False Gospel of John Piper's Christian Hedonism & Neo-Calvinism) I hear one man stating an opinion, about another man's opinion and not want to hear anyone's opinion, about his opinion.

[@laurieshouse]

I don't now much about Dr Piper's Christian hedonism, but I have sat under the teaching of Sam Allberry, and have read his works. He has been completely misrepresented here. There have been misunderstandings, which he has addressed, and in at least one case, apologized for. If Enoch Burke's understanding of Sam's views are so far off, I wouldn't trust him concerning Dr Piper's. Very disappointing to see this on your channel.

[@marcyoverby3817]

Worked with a girl that went to his church..She had to leave..Told me ..She couldn't figure out what happened to him..

[@williampadgett1]

I have listened to several of your podcasts and have been helped in some ways by you pointing out wrong things in the woke movement, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of John Piper in this discussion. You have essentially called his core teaching heretical which really is a bold claim, he has had decades of pastoral ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ, pointing people to love God with a passion. His teaching has changed my life and I have had extreme victory over sin and a renewed love and passion for the Bible which John Piper has as well. You have completely mischaracterized his Bible teachings and your arguments against him were very weak.

[@theschrocks2405]

William Padgett absolutely agree! I am in shock here.

[@carinabakewell2311]

www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@garyrieben5732]

Jon. I appreciate your logic and your reasoning. I am not a groupie of Piper. But, his books impacted my life in a life transforming way. I am 77 years old. I have served as a pastor for 45 years and missionary the last 8 years. I love God's Word and make it my goal to please Christ in every way. I often fail, but that is the goal. I find your evaluation of Piper's theology very shallow. He never puts emotions ahead of obedience, Never! Obedience comes out of our love for Christ. I do not agree with Piper's politics, but his theology is spot on! Joy in Christ is a deep and profound blessing that I do not think you understand or have experienced. Your desire to be prophetic in this age of compromise is admirable, but it can lead to arrogance. A little judging of your self right now might be good.

[@pamelafaye3379]

Enoch Burke is very perceptive in his analysis. I also suggest you look into the books by ES Williams. metropolitantabernacle.org/

[@Repentee]

absolutely. couldn't have agreed more

[@andrewkristof6587]

I've been diligently following your work on social justice, critical theory, and BLM, and those episodes are excellent. However, I think you all miss the boat here - this seemed more of character assassination than application of Scripture to our world.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Andrew Kristof kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4LKioyGaMRgZ7s

[@carinabakewell2311]

cmarsh669 no, sometimes I comment, but the links are only to enlighten people who follow John Piper, as he’s a false teacher.

[@carinabakewell2311]

cmarsh669 nothing particularly about you or Andrew.. there were so many negative comments on the book review I felt I had to offer some homework to some of the comments..and Andrew was calling the video a character assasination. ...when in fact it was a review of a book to warn Christians of the dangers of John Pipers ministry and the ministry of openly same “sex attracted” Sam allbury who’s also heavily involved in the Ravi Zacarías ministry and I believe the gospel coalition, and making inroads in the church with his LGBT tendencies. I’m not against them as people but their ministries are leading people into erróneos teaching...I think the book will be a good addition to resources for those of us who want to keep up with the teachings that are available in the global church...and also prevent it entering our local churches. I read about all different ministries, we have to keep up with what’s happening around the world...and in the church in these troubled days.

[@carinabakewell2311]

cmarsh669 I did respond but all my answers to everybody have been wiped off the comments!

[@gch8810]

It was definitely not a character assassination. Jon repeatedly clarified that he does not know Piper personally and cannot comment on him in that manner.

[@adamjohns78]

Good interview; definitely dangerous to elevate one aspect of the fruit of the Spirit, when all 9-flavors are intended to exist in a singular “fruit.” Any time we focus on only one flavor, it becomes a work of the flesh, and that’s what leads to the idea of “I should be more joyful.” When the reality is, we need to read the Bible, pray and Worship God so that we’ll live a life full of the Spirt! BTW: God does satisfy the desires of all things (Psalm 145:16) - so it’s not a bad thing to be most satisfied in Him; the problem comes when that is our aim... instead of seeking to follow His will for our lives, which is our sanctification...

[@JonathanGrandt]

Yes. Agreed. Singular fruit with many benefits.

[@Imputationist]

Helpful episode.

[@koba2955]

"Christian Hedonism" is not the only un-biblical doctrine that JP teaches (in truth, this is NOT a side issue, considering the focus of his ministry lies much on the man-centered false premise that really puts man's happiness at the center of things), but the even more dangerous teaching of what he calls "Final Justification," or "Final Salvation" which is that Christians are not saved by faith alone (Sola Fide), but are admitted to eternal life with God on the basis of performing good works also. He has promoted it for years, and has not given clear responses when asked for clarification concerning it--which is inexcusable. If one is not familiar with this core teaching of Mr. Piper, than one is not very familiar with his ministry. This "Final Justification" doctrine was propagated by his mentor in seminary (Norman Shephard from Fuller Theological Seminary), and is in essence the same as what the Roman Catholic Church teaches as dogma concerning the Ordo Salutis. In no way is "Final Justification" a biblically sound Gospel, neither is it Protestant or Reformed. There are many other problems with JP's teaching (including defending Rick Warren as a sound teacher, defending BLM and espousing Charismatic theology and practice to name a few), though he does have very many sincere followers who will defend him it seems even to the death. This video linked here was produced by an elder from Metropolitan Tabernacle in London (where Spurgeon had a pulpit), and is unmistakably revealing (from the Passion 2020 Conference, where he used the word "desire" over 90 times, and the word "repentance" zero times in his so called Gospel preaching) and quite troublesome in a day where false teachings abound. It is called "Piper At Passion 2020" by E.S. Williams...kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4LKioyGaMRgZ7s

[@carinabakewell2311]

F W www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@brianlee9990]

John (and Enoch) how are we to respond to Article 8 of the Nashville Statement which says, "WE AFFIRM that people who experience sexual attraction for the same sex may live a rich and fruitful life pleasing to God through faith in Jesus Christ, as they, like all Christians, walk in purity of life. WE DENY that sexual attraction for the same sex is part of the natural goodness of God’s original creation, or that it puts a person outside the hope of the gospel?" Piper signed it, but so did JMac. The statement affirms SSA as acceptable in the Christian life (although fighting it and not acting on it). I think I understood the two of you to say that SSA is not compatible with being a Christian. Help me understand you position.

[@Vankysher]

The Nashville Statement is clear in its affirmation and denial. SSA can be a besetting sinful desire a true Christian could struggle with an entire lifetime. What is not being affirmed by the Nashville Statement but Sam Allberry does promote is that SSA or same sex desire is NOT sinful.

[@JenniferoftheSea]

Wait. There's sin in the Evangelical church therefore it's Piper's fault because he's popular? What logical fallacy is this? This is ridiculous and hurts any point he might make that contains truth! So much mischaracterization going on here too.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Jen Be Nimble www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@mrtdiver]

Thank you for bringing these issues to light. Thank you for your courage. I'm more less writing this cause the backlash here in the comment section. May the Scriptures, not man, be magnified. For some reason we focus way too much on contemporary books rather than books of the Bible. I never hear people excited about Nahum, Micah, etc. It's all about who's popular.

[@vladimirlegorocks]

It's crazy to think that two years later, the guy would be in jail for his convictions.

[@pedropadel141]

In jail for shouting at his religious entitlement at his boss at a dinner where parents and students were present, getting suspended and ignoring the suspension. But make it about his "convictions" if that suits your narrative. His fundamentalist Christianity has made this entitled bullying manchild incompatible with Irish society

[@worldupsidedown1]

Yes, we must pray for him. He’s a very godly man.

[@SandyM0504]

Read Words of Warning by Charles Spurgeon...one of the best books written on salvation.

[@Izthefaithful]

Or anything Spurgeon wrote 😆

[@bbsmith9409]

Good critique. Paul Maxwell's critique on Christian Hedonism is good in its own way by contrasting it to applying Christian Stoicism as a mode of motivation.

[@ConciseCabbage]

Christian Stoicism certainly has more pedigree in church history

[@scotthuffman3916]

Just purchased four copies of this book!

[@righteousrocker1769]

One further thing, what church does Enoch attend? Is he a lone ranger or involved in a local body?

[@hezkyden]

Piper's use of the word 'hedonism' juxtaposed with 'Christian' is the main reason for any confusion. The following definition of hedonism reveals why it is that Piper is wrong to use it in relation to Christian living. noun: hedonism the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence Opposite: self-restraint In Philosophy 'hedonism' is defined as: the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

[@orbyfan]

I always thought John Piper's son was named Peter.

[@iloveamerica64]

😂

[@12111scott]

Please be careful bout debate without rebuttal. The truth is absolutely essential but the vast amount of teaching and commentary out there from Piper will likely provide argument against these accusations. Struggling with not acting on our sinful desires is sometimes the best we can bring while striving to gracefully eliminate all sin propensities. Rom 7. There’s a hint here of try, try again on getting at Piper. False teacher or axe grinding?

[@theschrocks2405]

Agree!

[@carinabakewell2311]

K R www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@anthonybutler6123]

I do not to come off as disrespectful, but I find this to be a gross misrepresentation of what John Piper and Desiring God teaches with regard to Christian Hedonism. If you are going to say that something that a minister of the Gospel preaches is false then I would bid you please to prove it. Anyone can say that something is unbiblical, but if it is so with all the material which John Piper has put out to support his premise -- which I also thing that you have misconstrued -- it should be easy to take a sermon or a work wherein he gives the Biblical warrant for his philosophy and say "this is why he is wrong about this text." To make a blanket statement that Christian Hedonism is unbiblical is a pretty specious assertion, especially when along with the assertion you burn other men of straw along the way. Do I think that John Piper should be more outspoken about the Critical Race Absurdity that is sweeping through the church? Yes. Do I think it is probably unwise for him to have been in league with Sam Alberry? Yes. But, I don't see the logical connection between that and Christian Hedonism anymore than I see the connection between John Calvin's doctrine of providence and his execution of Servetus. Each of those issues has to be judge on their own merits against the Word. To be quite frank, I think that this video is somewhat dishonest in its presentation of John's Piper's concept of Christian Hedonism, and perhaps that is because you only have a limited time, but this just smacks to me as someone who just doesn't have the taste for John Piper anymore, and want to cast a shade on his ministry and teaching. I fully acquiesce to the possibility of being wrong, but I cannot tell if I am because the pertinent issues of his doctrine and teaching have not come up yet.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Anthony Butler www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@patriciagrant6687]

There is victory in JESUS to any one who is willing to REPENT AND BELIEVE JOHN 14:6

[@prayunceasingly2029]

How does one make themselves willing to repent?

[@thestraightroad305]

I listened to the phrase about Piper saying it’s a sin to buy a “news car” over and over and I can’t figure out if you really mean “new” car or “used car.” Not a criticism, I just want to know what he really said!

[@dawnmichelle4403]

I thought the same!

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Did you know? Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers

[@lindseyswinborne6168]

I've been sooooo blessed by John Piper's books over the years. I especially love Future Grace and Don't Waste Your Life, but have most of his books and have gained so much from his writing and preaching over the years. I am curious as to where he is with the CRT stuff and this episode will cause me to dig deeper and verify what is presented here. I do wonder why you would consider it unbiblical for his son to remarry after a biblical divorce? Do you believe someone cannot marry again under any circumstances? Also, once a pastor/elder's children are out of the home, is the pastor/elder to bear the blame for their choices and beliefs? I have known the agony of having an older child walk away from the faith they were raised in for a time and it was the most excruciating pain I've ever endured. With lots of prayer and fasting my child has come back to faith, but having been through that experience, my heart is burdened to lift up those who are experiencing this same pain. I pray often for Piper's wayward sons to be saved. I figure it is the most valuable thing I can give back to a man of God who has blessed me so much.

[@Vankysher]

Piper's personal conviction is in the permanence of marriage which he has written about especially when that wasn't the official position of Bethlehem Baptist Church at the time 15 or so years ago. If Piper's views on divorce & remarriage have changed since then, I'm not aware.

[@lindseyswinborne6168]

@@Vankysher I'm not aware of whether his views have changed in that area, but he did sit, smiling, at his son's remarriage, so either he has changed or he feels it is a matter of freedom of conscience as a believer on whether to remarry?

[@Vankysher]

@@lindseyswinborne6168 I'd like to think it a matter of Christian liberty for Piper. I agree regarding holding him accountable for his adult children's sinful behavior as an invalid criticism. Piper's doctrine of "final justification" is an extremely serious error that warrants all the criticism it deserves as it adds on to justification by faith alone.

[@carinabakewell2311]

www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@ugyiggy]

@@Vankysher It a valid criticism to hold he accountable for his son not of guilt but of qualification. He simple isn’t qualified to be an elder.

[@robertlotzer7627]

If desires can’t be sinful what would Piper say to a parishioner who had a desire to kill his neighbor. Would he be required to repent of a desire to murder?

[@michaelshipman7104]

John, I can't believe you interviewed this guy. Anyone who has listened to / read Dr. Piper over the years knows he is a man who is committed to the Scriptures. This interview would have been better if Burke would have said "I just don't like him." But don't get me wrong, Dr. Piper is not perfect, but one thing he is not is un-biblical. I think it would be good to see interviews like this to stop and for all of us to start putting our efforts in Gospel advancement.

[@carinabakewell2311]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4LKioyGaMRgZ7s

[@carinabakewell2311]

www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@selwin26]

Totally wrong interpretation of what Piper is saying.

[@lancelewis3368]

Please get to your point , I have listened to about ten minutes and I don’t know what you are saying about piper ,

[@unepetiteanana508]

Why is Barnabas's remarriage a travesty? From what I understand, his divorce was biblical because his ex-wife is no longer a Christian - she left him.

[@dw6505]

Jesus calls divorce and remarriage adultery. Only a physical death of previous spouse frees anyone to be joined to another.

[@user-zf5mw3ok1f]

Excellent interview.

[@bethsnider5796]

I agree with you about the dangers of Christian Hedonism. The term itself is misguided. I have had the same concerns through listening to and reading John Piper. The part of the interview where you discuss his son’s lives: I am assuming you are referring to verses in the New Testament that talk about qualifications of an elder? I don’t fully understand. Do you guys think that a leader in the church needs to resign based upon the adult actions of his children? I can understand if he might need to step back from ministry for a while in order to minister to his family if a teenager is rebellious. (I have a rebellious teenager in my home right now and it takes a lot!) But I guess, I struggle with following that logic out to a leader being disqualified for ministry based upon his adult children’s sins? Is there scripture to support this? Also, you didn’t comment on whether there are biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage. Not everyone who has these things happen in their lives is because of sin on their own part. For instance, I filed for divorce on the biblical grounds when my ex-husband was both unfaithful and deserted me and our children. I was remarried. Scripture clearly allows for that if there were biblical grounds for divorce, which was of utmost importance to my decisions of divorce and remarriage. Anyway, you may have not wanted to derail the conversation during those comments he made. But I can only imagine people are thinking and wondering about some things that were said. I would recommend making some sort of comment of clarification about these points and pinning it to the top.

[@krism6493]

I really liked the points made about Christian hedonism. As far as Allberry, I don't believe a Christian should define themselves by their sin: "Hi, I'm a Greedy Christian," etc... It's worldly. But, the title/cover of this book is weird. It looks like clickbait, the grammar is strange and almost gives the impression that Piper is gay (and possibly a couple with Allberry). Also, going after his family seems uncharitable.

[@thomasmilavec3754]

Usually agree with you but this one is pretty bad.

[@LBelieveinJesus]

Just seeing what Enoch is going through now here in Ireland. Well we knew the world was woke but calling for your arrest they've got to be mad on power at this point. God sees what you're doing and all the true believers know the truth of God's word and how it pertains to gender/sex. Also you've opened my eyes about Piper. I thought he was sound but it's clear that there are issues regarding wedding attendance.

[@fod2011]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIOXo3uGpdSDfrM

[@mairedaly4926]

I'm sorry, you seem to have mis-understood Enoch's arrest, it was not 'called for'. He was arrested for breaching a court order to keep away from his workplace. He's been asked on numerous occasions by the court, to undertake not to visit his place of work. The conflict began with a child in the school deciding they wanted to be a girl, he objected, but furthermore, he brought his protest to public events held at the school, after that he was put on paid suspension pending a hearing, and he didn't adhere to the suspension, turning up at the school every day... they had to get legal to keep him off the school grounds till the hearing as he was quiet disruptive, he's refusing to agree to that undertaking so the court had no choice, in law, but to incarcerate him. The Burkes have a reputation for litigation You can find out more about him and his family on their channel, I strongly recommend watching kzbin.info

[@mairedaly4926]

@@UnashamedlyGodSquad I wouldn't wish a spell in 'The Joy' on anyone.... It's like he feels he has to do it for his family. That's some burden. He's clearly miserable there

[@robertlotzer7627]

John Pipers theology has always been skewed and it is clearly seen here in his hedonism - he has it backwards - God’s glory is not reactionary or derivative from man’s satisfaction. Piper has no objective centering to his theology in that the gospel is first and foremost outside of us.

[@evangarner7700]

This dude has a weak argument. When Jon directly asked him what his problem with Christian hedonism is, he didn't have a great answer.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Evan Garner kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4LKioyGaMRgZ7s

[@stephendavies2925]

We must root out every sin!

[@bilbobaggins4403]

What do you guys think of Simone Weil?

[@Repentee]

5:55 - The idea the 'God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him' is not Piper's idea, he gives credit to people like Augustine and Jonathan Edwards for that. Similarly the idea that the 'chief end of man is to enjoy him forever' which, along with the previous phraseology is the central idea of Christian Hedonism is not something Piper created either. If anything Piper merely coins the term. Now to address the overarching charge, that Christian Hedonism isn't biblical - Saying something isn't in the bible needs qualification and nuance. Unfortunately Burke misses it, at least as far as this interview goes. JW's say the same thing about the Trinity, that it isn't found in the bible and guess what as far as the 'word' is concerned they are correct. But we are looking for something deeper than that. Does the concept appear? Burke uses a similar tired argument (assuming that is interview represents and abridged version of his thesis.) Perhaps his book addresses Pipers specific arguments. As far as Piper's argument for Christian Hedonism is laid out in Desiring God, Pleasures of God etc. He does ample work to show that 'the concept' of Christian Hedonism is grounded in the Scriptures. The whole idea of 'being renewed in our mind' is couched in what we worship, value, enjoy etc. To to say that Piper misses this point is false on the face of it. We are hedonists at heart. Piper argues that our desire to be happy isn't faulty in of itself, but rather needs to be changed, ie. through resurrection (being saved). We need to be made new to have proper desires, Godly desires. Joylessness in God is a condemnable offense in Piper's mind and I think he is right because the proposition is true and biblical. The Christian is made happy in God where as previously his sole happiness was in the world. I don't think that is up for argument. the central tenent of Christian Hedonism is proper WORSHIP of God, I'd argue it is central to the bible (more particularly proper worship). Repentance is about being changed (in mind). We are no longer beholding the things of this world as great, but holding God as great. Scripture doesn't suggest we enjoy God, Scripture commands it! The man who doesn't enjoy God as a matter of practice will perish. This is true

[@nhlakaniphosithole-kaCondo]

Amen💯

[@Repentee]

@@nhlakaniphosithole-kaCondo indeed bro. God is good and worthy of our utmost adoration. Please pray for me bro in that I heed the command to delight in God.

[@worldupsidedown1]

The very phrase “Christian Hedonism” is blasphemous. Those who have ears to hear…

[@Repentee]

@@worldupsidedown1 there is nothing blasphemous about it - the word hedonism is qualified so that it is not confused. But perhaps you don't like Piper (I assume this is the case) - if that's the case nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise because of your immense bias.

[@southwife]

THANK YOU.

[@Izthefaithful]

Everything I ever see or hear from Piper is about Glorifying God and pointing directly to Jesus as our savior and our Joy and our God. I just can’t find untruth in Him or His messages. Also He seems really joyful in Christ and has an obvious love for God that shows. He’s always pointing to scripture and seeking to Glorify God alone. I just feel like this is a smear campaign Sorry I just do

[@carinabakewell2311]

iz thefaithful www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@gch8810]

You may not agree with their conclusions, but it's definitely not a smear campaign. They are simply trying to help others spot what they believe to be false doctrine.

[@RealBobLoblaw]

The fundamental problem stems from the doctrin of eternal security.

[@leearmour4267]

I couldn't understand if he said Piper said it was a sin to buy a news car or a new car...Can someone clarify?

[@dawnmichelle4403]

I heard it as either "an used" or "a news" car. Doesn't make sense really.

[@betty8173]

Perhaps a bit more discussion of the purpose and scope of the book might have been helpful to start, and some concrete examples. I get the title, conversations, but I felt like I came in at the end. Not a Piper fan, so, I tended to accept what was being said, but clarity would help, going to today's video to see if that one helps. But surely enjoyed hearing my Gramma's sweet accent again , thank you, Mr. Burke

[@carinabakewell2311]

Betty www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@JonathanGrandt]

I’ve heard Piper himself explain it. It’s very troubling. By the way, if you aren’t a Christian Hedonist, you aren’t really a Christian. Well, that’s how Piper puts it. It also helps to wave your arms around and speak overly passionately about heresies so that people will think you’re sincere. And maybe he is. 🤔

[@johnny2303]

Is the whole evangelical world dying? There is another site "Servus Christi" that has the same calling out but by associations. It seems that everyone is corrupted. Ill just stick to Martin Lloyd Jones

[@carinabakewell2311]

Johnny www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@mic4him]

I don't normally make public comments, but I am very saddened by this conversation. Perhaps you guys should spend your time teaching the Scriptures, rather than attacking the character of another fellow Christian leader and his family. Go read Romans 14:1-12; 1 Corinthans 4:1-5.

[@lauren8407]

I was actually just thinking about this book the other day. I read it years ago. But I was thinking about how it’s trying to fit Christianity into the worldly philosophy of hedonism. It sounds good and I’m not going to say everything he says is the worst but is hedonism what the Bible says? Nope. We are to love the Lord with all our heart. I think steering clear of worldly philosophy is important and also to stay away from “christianize” them.

[@kw2406]

I believe there were some good points made though I have found him to be very helpful in my walk. If Bethlehem Baptist has a woke pastor now that would be very troubling. I don’t feel the guest was appropriate to condemn him for his children’s sins. I know many godly Christian parents who have wayward children. Concerning if he is giving platform for Asbury’s teaching

[@acountrygirlsews2508]

Thanks for agreeing with me! Our pastor want to teach John Piper’s book on Providence to Sunday School class. I have been researching him. He’s a pietist, a gnostic and a mystic. I need to get your book.

[@nmhurtado454]

Jon Harris and Enoch Burke are both acting as straight up charlatan dealing with JP. However what they have to say about Sam Allberry is fair game.

[@FITSOZOLIFE]

This guy is now 6 months in prison in Ireland . He won’t say they/ them.

[@erikiversen6607]

This is a misrepresentation of Piper’s teaching. He teaches that obeying and serving the Lord results in our joy. And uses so much scripture to back that up and flesh that out. He doesn’t teach to pursue our pleasure above everything else. He teaches to pursue Jesus above everything else. This is disappointing.

[@unforgivingsketches]

I too commented that I always found his teachings sound, and his archives covering a measure of sound doctrine. I never felt pressured to pursue my own joy in a selfish or heretical way but, as you said, by pursuing Jesus over everything in faith

[@unforgivingsketches]

2/2 I think he’s sound, but I also believe anything can be distorted, even good teaching. Hence, you may have some people walking away with a distorted, man-centered understanding of his teachings. But I don’t think that means the teachings themselves are heretical

[@rjnordin]

I would say that in the earlier years of Piper's ministry what you write is true. Something changed in later years though. As someone who attended Bethlehem in the early 2000's what I experienced as sound teaching gave way to something that resembles a social Gospel that we see infecting much of the church today. If yo know his history of growing up in North Caroline you will know that has had a major impact on his views on race. Some of it good, and some of it troublesome in the manner of reconciling with the struggle against racism. The matter of improper emotionalism affecting a generation being on Piper's shoulders is debatable, but it's reasonable to discuss.

[@carinabakewell2311]

John piper is a renowned antinomian and his philosophy of Christian hedonism is anti biblical..kzbin.info/www/bejne/imPHgWh3opyVl7c

[@unforgivingsketches]

Carina Bakewell one of the comments on that video (admittedly, haven’t watched the video yet because I’m at work) said that Piper pursues his own lustful craving for pleasure and happiness. I’m still confused, though, because the “lustful” craving that he has is to be happy *in God.* I always thought that was the entire point - pursuing our own pleasure in that which will totally meet that craving for joy and pleasure: God himself. I wake up every day seeking pleasure in God, not heretical pleasure, but pleasure in his sufficiency and glory and Spirit. And Piper’s point seems to be that that is biblical and God-honoring. The pleasure isn’t rooted in self, but in God, and not in a way that is selfish, but selfless for God and his gift of joy in knowing him. We pursue God with delight, not delighting in the pursuit greedily while trying to maximize ourselves, but delighting in minimizing ourselves and knowing God’s grace. And this pursuit is first initiated by salvation, Christ in us. I hope this makes sense. I’m trying to understand

[@noamlabounty7797]

John, I appreciate your channel and your work. This interview was less fortunate. While I personally am not particularly enamored with Dr. Piper's Christian Hedonism and have some definate reservations regarding it and several other aspects of his thinking, I must say that this was not a very fare representation of him. Much of your geust's argumentation was simply childish and silly. I especially take issue with the book's title - that is a miserable cheap shot on the part of the author. I do not think that a serious discussion of some of Dr. Piper's less fortunate views and impacts are advanced by interviews or content of that nature. In short - you, John, are better than this kind of thing, a lot better. This just felt like character assassination. Anyway.... Blessings and keep the good work sir!

[@janwells2199]

Wow, I grew up in a Methodist church that looks so much like that background. Only a lot bigger.

[@benjung2995]

Jon, I have to say that posting this interview is, I think, overall a net negative. Please hear me out. I have been thoroughly helped by many of your analyses, particularly for SJ matters. You are clearly a knowledgeable and discerning believer. This analytical skillset allows you even to detect subtleties, inconsistencies, and nuances that others do not (or don't have the time to research!) in order to help prevent derailments, even if the train is only just tending to lean in a wrong direction. But that doesn't mean we immediately post a big red flag video which, like it or not, came across as insinuating we can't trust Piper about anything and he possibly doesn't even understand the gospel because he puts so weight on measuring one fruit of the Spirit... again, Jon, like it or not, that's how this video "reads". I do believe that Piper is off in his emphasis. I saw this at the Getty's Sing! Conference in Nashville last year, when Piper gave a very sharp message on the necessity for preachers to exude great passion in preaching and was very heated up, and had his latest book "Expository Exultation" just out... and MacArthur was up next. When MacArthur came up (who is a much less emotional personality than Piper) he said to Piper in a gentle tone: "I love you John, and you know that." The way he said it in a tone of appeal, communicated to me that MacArthur understood Piper's message was about questioning the sincerity of "less emotional" preachers, such as MacArthur himself. That said, I think the overall net thrust that comes out of your interview is, unlike MacArthur's response, is that any form of leaning that COULD result in someone misunderstanding God's truth should be called out in a very similar fashion as calling out heresy. No, you didn't say that directly, but the video comes in this style. Yes, there's an emphasis problem, and yes, any error, taken to their full extent, could lead all the way to a false gospel, but that doesn't mean the believer who is off on an emphasis is actually doing that. It is an error to be called out and corrected, but it's not to be treated in the same way as false teaching. Opinion: it seems from Piper's writings and messages, that he has a heightened awareness of joylessness, and this is a strength and weakness. I surmise that Piper, like many, sees in himself and in the church a real problem with, well, not being real. If Christ is true, then this is absolutely the reason for the greatest joy and passion ever, but so many claiming Christ seem to exhibit little, if any, outward joy! So, the Lord has used Piper to shed light on this real problem area and fruit of the Spirit, but this becomes his weakness, because it has turned into his primary emphasis (and this can lead others to think it is the "highest virtue" or such, as you rightly mention, in a very unbalanced and unbiblical way). It is indeed very dangerous to stray from the Scriptures. When we start drawing conclusions and links between things that the Scriptures do not directly speak to (such as writing multiples volumes about a single fruit of the Spirit), we may be right about some things, but who knows where we'll end up, and it's up to anyone's experience or opinion if we're right or wrong, if it's something the Scriptures do not say. But seeing a believer's poor emphasis on one thing doesn't immediately necessitate a third-party interview about how they may be preaching a false gospel, if you take it to XYZ conclusion, like you may have. This level of analysis can be harmful rather than helpful, but bringing it out in a third-party author and interview with such criticism can cause divisions and unhealthy suspicions. Basically, I'm cautioning that the emphasis of this post is off balance. Not that you're wrong, or that you shouldn't have done the interview, or that we shouldn't be Bereans, but the weight and somewhat (or outright) subjective conclusions raised are overall, unhealthy. I think that should have been a public appeal and admonishment to Piper about the dangers of the emphasis problem, how it can lead to altering the gospel and more bondage than grace, and we've exited safe content (which can skew the faith) when we start writing so much about one thing (which the Bible speaks in context with many OTHER things). So please be careful, and think this through. This type of thing (our approach to different types of problems) can be a big blind spot for us highly-analytical types.

[@hermanr5513]

@Ben Jung, as a very analytical person myself, I agree with your statement and words of caution.

[@mrhandsrevenge]

I’m usually a big fan of Jon’s work. But this video was really out there and just seems like a cheap smear, and lacking in substance.

[@ConciseCabbage]

12:30 - One cannot jettison Piper without doing the same to the concept of “revival”. The root of revival is bad, that’s why it’s fruits are bad (primacy of emotion, extremism, chaos, etc)

[@jeffersonjjohnson]

*man made revival

[@tedkijeski339]

If you name your kid Enoch, I mean--that's pretty hard core. I wonder if that places any additional pressure on the child.

[@mairedaly4926]

kzbin.info

[@rjohnson529]

Jon, why don’t you you confront piper with these issues with Piper as you do with other everybody else including yourself. Isn’t that what your responsibility to a fellow believer. Need a answer to this.

[@carinabakewell2311]

Ralph Johnson www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@gch8810]

Actually, no, he does not have to confront Piper based off Scripture. The Bible makes it clear that we must confront our fellow brother when we have a personal problem with them. Jon does not have a personal problem with Piper. He is responding to the things that Piper has said publicly that he believes to be unbiblical. Jon is not attempting to resolve a personal issue with Piper, therefore the idea that he is to resolve this issue privately with Piper is incorrect. Those who publicly present false doctrine need to be called out publicly for it so that others will not follow them into that false doctrine. Paul did this to Peter when Peter was preaching things that were false.

[@relaxingnaturespasleepback58]

I use too listen too Piper years ago when I was a baby christian, at that time I thought he was a pretty sound teacher, but I wasnt very cautious then. The deeper into sound doctrine and more of the word I understood by studying John Macarthur, Rc Sproul etc..I started realizing something was off w Piper. Its always about experiencing or having an emotional relationship w God. As far as his son not being a Christian as an adult is not what is shocking. It's his filthy mouth, his hatred for christianity, his character should atleast be moral for being raised by a Pastor, for if a man canno run his own household, how will he shepherd the chuch of God? Also he compromises too much by fellowshipping too much w false teachers.

[@justinhornsby6742]

His works are actually always about "having an emotional experience." Have you really read them?? Regarding his son, he is an adult who is not a believer. The external moral behavior of a lost adult isn't the litmus for whether someone managed their household well.

[@bizmogrowth9081]

It seems you guys greatly misunderstand Piper. How can you make a case against Christian hedonism and not FULLY address the Westminster confession of faith? Or reformed theology? Do you understand how Piper’s teaching is an outgrowth of reformed theology? How in his thinking the old formulation “Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.” The “and” is swapped with “by”? I would’ve expected a solid refutation to address what is at the heart of the issue. This glaring omission seems to indicate you just don’t understand his teaching. I don’t know Sam Alberry well enough to agree or disagree with your statements on his teaching. Maybe you’re right about him, maybe your not. The connections your trying to make though are dubious at best - Piper’s children’s sins are a reflection of their father’s theology? Piper doesn’t carry a gun and that’s somehow related to any of this?

[@thosewhohaveearstohear....3838]

But, he's a theologian, knows Greek and sells lots of books.. . . . . . yet folks here are criticizing him; . . . . .I don't understand?

[@carinabakewell2311]

Those who have ears to hear. . . . Please read this to understand more..www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@justinhornsby6742]

Having read many of Piper's earlier works, I find this surprisingly shallow and superficial. It seems as if they either haven't actually read Desiring God, or the main ideas went over their heads. No direct quotes...no counter arguments for actual propositions in his works...just a good helping of misrepresentation. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with Piper on everything. However, the major arguments in Desiring God are at heart biblical with the express goal of seeing and savoring God's glory. The whole point is the exaltation of Jesus...definitely not self or personal happiness.

[@worldupsidedown1]

Don’t ignore his belief in theistic evolution, his partnering w false teachers, Beth Moore, Louie Giglio, & more, hedonism is anti-biblical, he’s a Charismatic who believes he can hear directly from God, is part of TGC which is heretical.

[@katdav9601]

Hey Jon. Can you discuss various Bible translations? Ex. Kjv Prov 18:24 v other translations. How do/has these different versions possibly affected our culture?

[@GerardPerry]

I would love to see this. The idea that the words don't matter, which is what you find in so much of the anti-KJVO movement, seems to blatantly contradict scripture.

[@bilbobaggins4403]

So the prodigal son is irrelevant?

[@bilbobaggins4403]

Realsville is a good word.

[@jjroseknows777]

Jon, did you happen to hear that great conversation between Piper and MacArthur? I am disappointed in this somewhat character assassination.

[@afterdarkness-light]

Where might we find that, please?

[@jjroseknows777]

@@afterdarkness-light kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaOcnpakYp6bqJI

[@carinabakewell2311]

www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@makobean]

I'm not sure Christian Hedonism is itself a problem. Piper's application of it might be, but that doesn't undermine the theology as a whole. Piper told a woman, for instance, that she shouldn't believe in predestination if it makes her upset with God. That's putting her emotions before truth. She should believe the truth, and have her mind renewed to rejoice in it. Christian Hedonism isn't wrong just because Piper distorts it in some places. Interestingly, Piper just attended his son Barnabus' wedding...to his second wife. Did his first wife remarry? If not, Piper just applauded his son committing adultery, as Piper himself says remarriage is never allowed so long as your spouse is living.

[@carinabakewell2311]

eru san www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/John_Piper_and_Christian_Hedonism.pdf

[@timbushong4387]

"Father Ted" on CTM - awesome! (o:

[@georgebowen3796]

Jon, I appreciate your ministry and have benefitted from it. However, though I may be missing something, this program seemed unfair and was not, in my view, an accurate representation of Piper's teaching. I am by no means a Piper apologist and have little affection for the phrase "christian hedonism." However, I have read Piper extensively and tend to largely agree with the sentiments behind Piper's "christian hedonism." The impetus for Piper's teaching is twofold: First is Jonathan Edward's treatise "The End for which God created the World" in which Edwards concludes that God created the world for His very own glory. Edward's exegetical work demonstrates this to be a Biblical conclusion. Further, embedded throughout the treatise is the Biblical conviction that our joy and God's glory are not antithetical but tend to run parallel to one another. Secondly, Piper draws from the Westminster shorter catechism that reads " The chief end of man is to glorify God, and enjoy Him forever. " Piper argues that the Westminster divines meant that God is glorified by enjoying Him forever (ie finding joy in Him forever). Though Piper would not deny that joy may have an emotive content the emotional experience of joy was not his primary concern. Piper has explained how suffering, sadness and joy can all coexist together. Let me state again I am not a Piper apologist and don't agree with him on some (many?) of his positions but I believe this broadcast misrepresented some of his most important positions and bordered on slander.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

Thanks brother! Very familiar with Piper and read many of his books. I think you'll find some of the episodes I did on Piper after this one clarify my critique a little more. If anything I've become more convinced "Christian hedonism" was a bad idea from the start.

[@TheCannonofMohammed]

You nailed it on John Piper. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Believe me.

[@sueanngarbarino-kelcher1321]

My take away is not on Piper's emphasis on joy, and sad use of the word hedonism for a holy delight, but his allowing and promoting unrepentance in homosexual thinking and feeling in supposed Christians. He evidently is creating room for Christians to snuggle with their sin as long as it doesn't become an "act" . We know from the Sermon on the Mount, and other NT writings that this is not true. Our minds, dispositions, and inclinations all must be continually submitted to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit until we are like Jesus!!! That progress should never end until we see Him face to face and are fully like Him. Our sinful thoughts should cause us poverty of spirit, hunger and thirst for righteousness, mourning, all of which He will replace with Himself and His transforming power increasingly. And we love Him for it. As much as we may want to provide a loving and patient forbearance to our brothers and sisters who struggle, we cannot redefine the sanctifying process of the Holy Spirit. We cannot. Though I too am not happy w some of the rabbit trails in this video and perhaos in the book. They are not necessary and are distracting and undermining to extremely important topic at hand.

[@TheRoger1205]

The very issues raised here are what I saw eroding the Gospel clarity of Ravi Zacharias. When he started to embrace Alberry's views, and even include him in his ministry, I knew something was off. Seriously off. Now we know what that was, although the CT article was way too graphic and disturbing concerning RZ's possible sins.