Cormac McCarthy's Anti-Christian Novel Explained

What is Cormac McCarthy's most anti-Christian novel? Well today we are digging into the Cormac McCarthy archive and other sources to study McCarthy's critique of what Christianity has turned into (and if it was ever anything different in the first place.)
Join the Cormac McCarthy Course here (Outer Dark Course Inside)
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Markus Wierschem's book on McCarthy: amzn.to/3PO0SYb

[@hjs9td]

I'm a Christian. I haven't read Outer Dark. The works of McCarthy I have read show no indication that his characters believe in anything beyond the next corner.

[@CINEMARTYR]

10K let's gooo! Congrats man! 🔥

[@acuerdox]

12:53 XD you realize that the reason the christians got persecuted by the roman state is because they refused to worship the emperor, and they were constantly undermining the imperial cult, and at the same time they prayed for the emperor. perhaps you have only managed to respond to a straw man.

[@samuelallen8945]

One of the most underrated channels on youtube - thank you for putting these out, brother! love the vibe and your analysis - the kids you teach are lucky!

[@penelopegreene]

What you say is quite reasonable. McCarthy is sort of like Twain in his critique of Christianity. He is more subtle though, and as a Gnostic, he makes a stand on his view of Theodicy.

[@barbarajohnson1442]

Cool analysis, I will now visit Outer Dark again. I like this.

[@notaprob4rob970]

What kind of reading do you have of the Bible? I’m not a Christian but the Reformed Presbyterian reading seems to be the best systematic, and it has explanations for many of the issues laid out in the video - whether they are good or worthwhile explanations is another matter, though

[@Misserbi]

I see how key references that are incorporated into works of fiction are important to link others in and not act like you don't look at other works. In fact that is how to give credit and show you are part of the thing and not actually your own entity.

[@markuswierschem2576]

Hello! I just thought I'd chime in and say a heartfelt "thank you" @Write Conscious for engaging with my (prohibitively expensive) book. I'm excited to see you found some parts of it stimulating, and that it's finding some critical readers such as yourself. Credit for the Psalter-/Salter-comparison actually should go to the great Giradian scholar, Stephen McKenna, which I do in one of the notes. To me, the case of McCarthy and Christianity is really endlessly fascinating, and Outer Dark perhaps the purest articulation of the apocalyptic logic at the heart of McCarthy's work.

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks for writing the book brotha. One of the best pieces of McCarthy scholarship I've seen in a long time. I'd love to have you on the show if you're interested in talking about it! If you are, email me at [e-mail]

[@markuswierschem2576]

@@WriteConscious Thank you for your kind words! I'll be writing you soon.

[@markuswierschem2576]

@@WriteConscious You (hopefully) got mail.

[@watcherofthewest8597]

Can anyone point me to something that discusses Cormac and gnosticism? I'm not sure I really understand what gnosticism means when I hear it on internet or KZbin these days. Is there a specific gnostic text or texts referenced or involved with his writing? Thank you for video!!

[@kylebradley_music]

What do you already know about gnosticism? If totally new, I'd start with the Apocryphon of John and that'll give you a good start. There is a good bit of scholarship on McCarthy and Gnosticism. Unfortunately, a lot of databases where scholarship is published require you to pay or be a student to access the articles. There are books of criticism on McCarthy that include chapters/essays on gnosticism though that can certainly 😉 be 😉 found 😉 online if you get creative lol.

[@watcherofthewest8597]

@@kylebradley_music thank you very much. Reading from Nag Hammadi texts mostly and on internets. I agree also, it is unfortunate we have instant and limitless communication between billions of people, and universities still keep academic works under lock and key. Thank you!

[@gregory_bloomfield]

Read A Bloody and Barbarous God by Petra Mundik. It’s an analysis of Cormac McCarthy’s books and the relationship with Gnosticism.

[@watcherofthewest8597]

@@gregory_bloomfield thank you!

[@gregory_bloomfield]

@@watcherofthewest8597 you are so very welcome.

[@nikkivenable73]

Ian, you love Wendell Berry? Have you read Jayber Crow?

[@mik9napkin598]

Fascinating. Man that doomed pig drive scene sure stuck with me, as so many scenes did. There's always one scene in every McCarthy book that makes you just go wtffffffffffffffffffffff. And that ending. Phew. Doozie.

[@markuswierschem2576]

In many ways, it's the key to the whole novel, and at once hilarious and horrifying. To me, it's a reversal of the Gadarene Swine Episode in the Bible, which is in turn a reversal of the sacrificial logic of paganism. So, a reversal of Christianity to an older mode of collective violence at the expense of Culla...

[@mik9napkin598]

@@markuswierschem2576 Never had heard (herd?) of that bible story. So that’s where the We Are Legion line is from. Huh!

[@markuswierschem2576]

​@@mik9napkin598 Indeed. There are variations of the tale, for instance, in Matthew, there are two demoniacs (two sides of the rival-antagonist dyad), but he loses the aspect of multiplicity (and the community) present in Mark (and Luke, I think) and the phrase "My name is legion, for we are many." The interesting thing is that the Gadarenes, who pretend to wish for the cure of their demoniac (whom they alway expell again and again) are not at all pleased with Jesus when he actually heals the man by casting the demons posessing him into the herd. The Gadarenes are not Jews, meaning they are pagans. As such, they rely on scapegoating the demoniac to cleanse themselves of their internal violence. It's really handy for them to have that one guy that they can unite against as a collective and blame for all their problems. It's the old sacrificial logic of the Greeks sacrificing their pharmakoi in times of trouble... When Jesus takes that away by reversing the process, he basically forces the community to find a new way to deal with their "demons".

[@markuswierschem2576]

​@@mik9napkin598 Yes it is. Jesus and the disciples visit the country of the Gadarenes, who are significantly Non-Jews/Pagans. He meets a man posessed by demons who's blocking the road and has intermittently been troubling his community. After excorcising the demons into a herd of swine which then casts itself off the cliff and into the nearby lake (mimicking a mode of communal execution common in ancient Greece and Rome). However, you'd be mistaken in thinking that the Gadarenes are grateful for the healing of their demoniac, instead asking Jesus to leave at once. It turns out this man functions as a kind of convenient scapegoat, whom the community can cast out again and again with "their" demons. Now that Jesus has taken that away, the pagan Gadarenes are essentially at a loss at how to deal with their internal problems, having no convenient scapegoat to blame anymore. So their reaction is kind of understandable... There are multiple versions of it in Matthew, Mark, and I think Luke as well. Matthew actually tells it slightly differently, with there being two warring demoniacs blocking the road, rather than one. Matthew thus gains the aspect of duality and the rival double, but loses a crucial aspect as well. That being the idea of multiplicity and the community which fades into the background. In Mark, you have one demoniac spouting the famous line "My name is Legion, for we are many."

[@alexsetterington3142]

Yip, Outer Dark might be my favorite of his books, after Blood Meridian of course. But then No Country and Sutree are superb as well.

[@stephenmorris1]

Here's a show idea: comparative literary Gnosticisms: McCarthy's Hermetic Gnosticism vs Phillip K Dick's Christian Gnosticism...

[@tectorgorch8698]

When will you take a deep dive into Jaynes? I love that shit......

[@lolwtfbbq111]

Gsp was roided out of his mind and what? Did you say greasing? I couldn't make it out clearly. Im curious! Please explain

[@chrisvernon1438]

there was a controversy in one of his fights where he was rubbed with too much vaseline. He actually got in trouble for it from Dana White. I think it was against Diaz, but I may be wrong on that.

[@sweetviolents29]

Haven’t read Outer Dark yet! But on reread and after learning the barest minimum about Gnosticism, the Judge is SCATHING critique of sun gods, creator/architect gods etc

[@kenward1310]

If GSP was roided, they all were roided.

[@badgerstatebard320]

One interesting thing that Wendigoon did note in his Blood Meridian video is that churches seemed to be associated with death whenever they appeared in the novel. Watching this video makes me think there is something to that and makes it more confusing that Wendigoon concluded B.M. was a Christian novel.

[@nothingreally6680]

they’re also the only places of solace from the hellfire raging outside

[@markuswierschem2576]

Well, it certainly makes a point about Christianity, and you can argue that it's very absence (or failure) is at the heart of what makes the world of that novel (which is ours) so horrific... So, does that make it Christian, Anti-Christian, or something else entirely?

[@gregory_bloomfield]

I loved Outer Dark. It’s an amazing and tragic read.

[@KalleVilenius]

Just a surface reading of the blind guy walking into a swamp was already plenty: putting his trust in God while demonstrating that trust being misplaced. A sad little scene. But he said there's no use in seeing where your're being "sent", a very fatalistic view. Like he doesn't think he has a choice in where he ends up because God has already decided for him. And says there's no use preaching, because everything is so obvious. What good is that attitude to anyone?

[@mik9napkin598]

It may be less of a useful daily attitude than an attitude one might acquire from viewing human history as a whole. As if we the creature are fumbling forward through time.

[@annaturquoise7114]

is this your text? this is profound.

[@Misserbi]

If scapgoating is the point isn't the lesson about same conditions for an occurrance turning and happening to another? How can you tell who is who and why is a negative impulse entertainment for strange people? I imagine the DNA says incapable but I think inept.

[@DiogenesNephew]

So Kevin Paffrath is your brother, right? Because DAMN you guys look alike.

[@acuerdox]

7:03 that's such a gnostic thing to say XD

[@mumboslick89]

Most modern “American” entertainers are Canadian, British, or Australian.

[@profsrvon]

your shirt is sooooooooo awesome

[@acuerdox]

16:15 you know, one's father is one's first image of god, it's easy to be a christian with a good father.

[@The_holyShinobi777]

My name is Christian McCarthy

[@acuerdox]

10:55 I have noticed that protestants spend so much time on the old testament, I believe that at the time of luther many reformers said they wanted to go back to the "original christianity", seems to me that they reverted back to just being jewish. when I had cathequesis in the catholic church I was just given a copy of the new testament.

[@acuerdox]

you know, saying that christianity has failed to produce a society of "good people" is kindof ridiculus from two different points: first because that's such a christian thing to say "we are all sinners" in a sort of total depravity kinda way XD and in the opposite direction because it's really hypocritical, as if there's no difference between today's societies and the roman world where people got crucified like it's nothing and geno cide was the rule of the day, the roman once killed every single person from an ethnicity because they lived on a mountain with precious metals, has there really been no improvement? XD

[@markuswierschem2576]

It's not really a black-or-white thing. Well, you could argue with the converted Catholic Girard (and I would add the baptized Catholic McCarthy) that: 1) The only true sin is violence (which springs from mimetic desire, read: envy or biblically: coveting). This is not the same as some vague metaphysical notion of hereditary sin passed down from Adam through the generations of man... 2) There has, indeed, been massive progress, and that Judaism and Christianity are directly to be credited for it, including every secular ethics that historically depend on their progress while violently disavowing any kinship with religious ethics. 3) That, thirdly, that progress consists in a very new kind of information --- a knowledge with terrible consequences, as it forces us to either radically renounce violence or be swallowed up by it. 4) That the model for being better is right there, in Christ. It's, however, also a terribly high standard to live up to... 5) That Christianity forsaw it's own failure and that this is the same thing as the Apocalypse. There's a great (if complicated) book by Girard, "Battling to the End" where he explains it in much more detail. So, hey, there's really quite a lot to say in favor of Christianity. It may have doomed us all, but at least, it'll be our free choice, rather than one from sacrificial ignorance... Or it could all be wrong. It's just an anthropological theory, after all.

[@adrianaslund8605]

Christian societies have done horrible things to people historically speaking. Just like any other. The relative equality under god it's ideology promotes is good though. But people stray from the good parts and twist it for their own benefit all the time. And genocide didn't stop because Christianity came into the picture. Medieval europe was obsessed with war.

[@stephenmorris1]

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.” -Chesterton

[@kentjensen4504]

So God has not been able to inspire people to give it a serious try? Uh... impressive?

[@jerryware1970]

@@kentjensen4504Man is imperfect and many expect perfection to be the objective; unrealistic expectations of themselves, others and life lead to disillusionment.

[@kentjensen4504]

You seriously think we haven't heard those pathetic attempts at logic a thousand times before? I don't say 'pathetic' in order to insult or provoke. I use the word in an attempt to describe with precision.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Chesterton, like Lewis, is ridiculously overrated…

[@adrianaslund8605]

"Real communism has never been tried"

[@acuerdox]

26:13 "christ's revelation of the latter is what throws a wrench into the machinery of collective violence [...] yet this does not abolish violence itself" oh no! whatever shall we do? truly christ has failed XD violence has not been abolished in the absolute XDDDDD cmoooooon! there has to be something better than this weak sauce critiques XD

[@markuswierschem2576]

Well, I guess it sounded better in context of the preceding and following chapters. 😉 But basically the angle is a Girardian one: The Crucifixion actually represents a massive epistemological leap for humanity as a whole, as it unveils the pattern of collective violence at the cost of the scapegoat. The only way the scapegoat works is when you don't know you have it; it hinges on our conviction of its guilt. Christ -- whom everyone, including Pilate and the Pharisees know to be innocent -- thus exposes and dismantles a fundamental (and: fundamentally unjust) way that humans have created internal peace in their communities. And since scapegoating only works by believing in the guilt of the victim, as the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice and the innocence of victims spread around the globe, that mechanism works less and less well, historically. Christ thus gives humanity a terrible freedom and choice: either renounce violence wholeheartedly, or be forced to live with a violence that knows no ending. Or, to put it in the words of Black in The Sunset Limited: "You must love your brother or die."

[@acuerdox]

@@markuswierschem2576 that's much better, but is that a lament or a celebration? I can only read that as great news.

[@markuswierschem2576]

@@acuerdox Depends on whom you're asking. Nietzsche -- who may have hated Christianity more than anyone -- actually saw the problem quite clearly, claiming that the human race only persists by sacrifice and that Judeo-Christianity changed our ethics so that nobody must ever be sacrificed. His express wish was for a return to the serene and blissful ignorance of pagan violence. Hence, one of the great oppositions in his writings on religion is that of "Dionysus vs. the Crucified." I think that's an outside opinion not even the New Atheists would second. Judge Holden probably would. McCarthy wouldn't. The Judeo-Christian influence is very strong. To us, even the most secular ethicists and stounchest utilitarians will cringe and loose sleep at the thought of sacrificing anyone group or individual for whatever lofty goal. From the vantage point of an ethics developing over the last 3.5 millenia and counting, we could perhaps frame it like this: One ethics embodies something utterly abhorrent that helped us survive and evolve as a race. That's paganism. The other, in its purest form, embodies all that is good and worthy, yet may demand from us what is impossible to all but the best among us, and perhaps dooms us to extinction as a race. That's Judeo-Christianity. The former may make you capable of survival (we don't have a pagan Earth-B control group), the latter worthy of it.

[@S2Cents]

Why don't you talk with an indoor voice. Why are you yelling.

[@yehusinede9913]

it's called youtube voice. all youtubers are legally obliged to talk like this.

[@guyfromkingshighway6813]

his delivery gets me pumped