Should We Celebrate When People Die? (Bishop vs Atheist)

The full discussion between CosmicSkeptic and Bishop Robert Barron can be found here: • Bishop Robert Barron &...
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[@AlexOConnorClips]

The full discussion between CosmicSkeptic and Bishop Barron is available here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3ScpX6bf6h9qq8 | For an exclusive bonus clip of the two discussing the Trinity, sign up at www.thebigconversation.show!

[@IsraelDev]

I think cosmicskeptic is not getting the understanding of eternal life. As I am writing this, there is a bomb blast in Kabul. There is a family who have lost their loved one and are shattered and in tears. It's an inconsolable time but at the same time for a person who believes in Jesus Christ it is an entry to eternal life - there is no tears, pain bomb blast or questioning of God in heaven. It is important to understand the difference between coronavirus and the crucifixion. The crucifixion was for your sins Alex and mine so that we can be set free by the blood of Christ. You don't look at the crucifixion as a loss because Jesus rose again from the dead and so will the people who believed in Jesus for remission of their sins gain eternal life

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@IsraelDev This is ridiculous. Any crucifixion is an act of barbarity. A god that demands blood to be satisfied is no god worth worshipping. Especially not a god that sacrifices itself to itself, then resurrects itself from the dead, if you take stories of the trinity seriously. The only way of resolving these bizarre tales is to treat them as fable. Christian keep prattling on about their god being omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, etc., etc... Yet how can they reconcile this nonsense with the reality of the human condition, with all its suffering? Oh, the Fall, they pull that out of their arses, where Eve picks a fruit she doesn't even understand the consequences of picking. Nice one, god. It's all our fault, somehow an omniscient god didn't realise what humans would do. Christianity is rife with silly contradictions, which is why I stopped believing it made any sense decades ago. The bishop couldn't answer anything with any credibility, in fact, he seemed totally out of his depth.

[@tomellis4750]

@@IsraelDev Oh goody.

[@tomellis4750]

@@Leszek.Rzepecki The Trinity, no theologian can explain, has god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost. So, on the cross, Jesus should have said, " My god, why hast I forsaken myself?"

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@tomellis4750 It is baffling. But I suppose you have to be a True Christian™ to understand such mysteries!

[@andrewgraham8]

Alex, your analogies are just spot on, and what’s even more amazing is how you manage to recall them under pressure quickly in these debates. Such a talent and level of intellect deserves many more views :)

[@Vnp99]

He's very young and far more intellectual than most beyond his age.

[@alittax]

Hear, hear! :)

[@nemo2327]

Years of practice I suppose

[@stevejpm1]

The Hitch would be proud.

[@sb_dunk]

Hnnnnggg Your

[@naturalisted1714]

Bishop: Evil is actually good. Alex: You're saying that evil is actually good. Bishop: No, don't be silly.

[@M_SM_RW]

It's more like Evil is good So nothing is evil, because it is all good No, you can think that it's bad but it's not but you can think that it is- except obviously that would be wrong- but it is

[@tompov227]

i’m glad i wasn’t the only one thinking this

[@QuintarFarenor]

@@M_SM_RW To be fair I think they're saying "From Gods perspective it's all good, even if it's bad from the human (singular/miniscule) perspective it's bad" and isn't that how Christians always go? "It's gods plan, he brought an angel in the form of your daughter, you may weep but gods welcoming her" Of course it's meant to console us as crazy as it may seem for people who don't believe it.

[@holdonwhatsgoingon5551]

😂😂 bishop in a nutshell

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@QuintarFarenor Another interesting question is why did god create Satan, knowing what Satan would do? Seems like god intended his creation to fail, and enjoys the results.

[@jcs1025]

I really can’t stand clergy who claim to know things that they can’t possibly know…things no one can know.

[@stechriswillgil3686]

They are egomaniacs and actors that play to an audience of the gullible all week long. They become convinced by their own shit in the end. Age and experience doesn’t make you wise by the way; that his main schtick here !

[@cwsaawrvx]

Hey comic lunatic u have been humiliated by Muhammad Hijab wanna say something about that cosmic paThetic

[@somesoccerguy4817]

How do you know? 😂

[@bigpapamagoo8696]

Alex keeps explaining his point in increasingly more coherent, simple ways, and Bishop Baron just keeps nodding and smirking and chuckling, ‘no, no, silly boy.’

[@cwsaawrvx]

Hey comic lunatic u have been humiliated by Muhammad Hijab wanna say something about that cosmic pathetic

[@mattf5935]

@@cwsaawrvx Is Muhammad Hijab the guy who edited the debate video, misquoted Alex repeatedly, and constantly interrupted others when they tried to speak? Someone should be humiliated after that debate but it isn't Cosmic Skeptic.

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

Frankly, Alex, barely out of his teens, runs rings around a bishop. And as for discussions of the trinity, thanks, but no thanks, that's a rabbit hole I've no intention of going down again. Religion makes no sense of anything, it just makes things up.

[@bigpapamagoo8696]

They literally call the trinity ‘the divine paradox’. Essentially, it’s the most holy impossibility that can’t exist but apparently does just because.

[@stechriswillgil3686]

Alex is a very bright guy. One of the main problems with religion is the clergy. Self appointed, self proclaimed men in a secretive brotherhood ? That’s like The Mafia ! Would you take someone seriously because they dressed up in their college mortar board and gown everyday ? Yet, the clergy dress up in their garb and expect you to believe what they say because they ‘ have the uniform on ‘ ? The ‘ Bishop ‘ guy only needs to wear his frock at work , not all day everyday ! Would a soldier ? Wear his uniform on leave. Would a police officer off duty, a fireman, a paramedic ? No.

[@smokert5555]

The trinity is easy to discuss. It's not mentioned in the bible, period. It's an invention of the church.

[@tomellis4750]

@@stechriswillgil3686 They wear a dog collar so they can be led.

[@MarkAhlquist]

Yet we keep on arguing with these dopes forever and ever.

[@aa-to6ws]

Now we need Alex to debate a Pawn, a Tower and a knight until getting to the final boss: The Queen.

[@dannyboi_663]

That aged quite well, the queen part at least.

[@MyContext]

There is a difference between the sadness of separation (people moving away) and the sadness at a funeral. I was aware of the difference as a kid and I am still aware of the difference which leaves me with the impression that a fair number of people are lying when they claim that they believe in an afterlife.

[@deewesthill1358]

I think many religious people don't exactly believe in an afterlife, but just hope for it.

[@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy]

“Nothing is a better proof of how far humanity has regressed than the impossibility of finding a single nation, a single tribe, among whom birth still provokes mourning and lamentations.” - Cioran

[@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy]

@You're Gonna Hate This, 1) Yes, I read about one tribe that does that (perhaps there are more). Cioran didn't know. It used to be more common, if I recall correctly ironically among some early Christians/Gnostics, and later I think Cathars and Bogomils? 2) I don't think worshipping or glorifying death is necessarily a bad thing. But that's beside the point. My point is we shouldn't celebrate when people are born. BTW, every cradle is a grave.

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

Alex was on fire here. The bishop had no proper reply. If its for greater good, suffering should be celebrated, which is just wicked. At the end the bishop did say, suffering should be celebrated because gods plan. Absurdity

[@NN-wc7dl]

Great point here. Not even the Bishop can laugh it away, though trying his best to do so.

[@nemo2327]

You nailed it square on the head Cosmic! Important discussion and you put the bishop on his back. Incredible! Thank you for the depth

[@eig1979]

The bishop is out of his depth, bucking up againt you. It's made clear when he smirks, and chuckles when you make a intelligent point.

[@davidevans3223]

Doesnt mean anything just because you or any of us don't understand doesnt mean it's wrong if you have free will and we do you also have the ability to be evil. But it's not always bad like a disciplined child will have a better life in all ways but it's not good to do it you'd need to know what the aim of life was to judge what's good is a 100 years of suffering bad in an eternal life and how else would you test people remain anonymous and watch you can not believe and I certainly don't celebrate bad things but i accept I don't understand unlike many who claim to

[@eig1979]

@@davidevans3223 What does any of that, have to do with what I said?

[@davidevans3223]

@@eig1979 it's a different argument it's not about out of his depth at all

[@christenp4671]

@@davidevans3223 seriously no offence but I have no idea what you were trying to say

[@Napoleonic_S]

@@davidevans3223 Nonsense, there are many bad things in life that never lead to anything good.

[@xensonar9652]

If all is as God wills it, why even make the distinction between good and evil?

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

Exactly, everything is laid out in accordance to his plan. Every genocide, every rape, every child left to starve, every oppression, everything is just as equally part of God's plan as every birth, every celebration, every hug and every kiss.

[@lucaedwards3576]

Ultimately it all has to be good (every event as is part of gods plan)if one takes the Christian position. Was what the point was I think

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@Ethan Danan God is infinitely good, God is infinitely powerful, God is infinitely knowing, meaning that everything ever created has to have a purpose that must necessarily be good to be consistent with God's attributes. Therefore evil is good, every single evil, saddening, gut wrenching event is good because it fulfills God's good plan. That is, of course, unless there was a way to achieve God's plan without suffering. But that's impossible right? An infinitely powerful, good and knowing being should only make the best possible world for His plans to be fulfilled.

[@Riteshkrpanda]

exactly .... whoever says me whatever happens happens for good it's all gods Devine plan I am like let me give you two slaps if God let it happens then there must be a good reason for it isn't it ? Though I follow that some good thing is going happen no matter how bad the situation is I don't believe it is god who is writing all this down call it cognitive dissonance call it optimistic view well that's all I have to say

[@Riteshkrpanda]

@@lucaedwards3576 well if an omnipotent God has an option to make things all good without evil wouldn't it be great ?

[@pappy9473]

The lad in the glasses is no match for Alex and his coherent, well thought out responses.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

do you mean the small boy with the dog collar?

[@pappy9473]

@@HarryNicNicholas he should definitely leave the 'adult's table' and go to the 'kid's table' . Ref : Boghossian, P. Pitchstone Publishing, 2013.

[@lenno2681]

Its sounds to me this bishop does not want to fully embrace his faith, he sounds as if "Yes, I have some really stupid beliefs but I don't want everyone to think I'm completely mad"

[@ImStayGold42]

The Bishop has way too much invested in his religious beliefs being true to be honest & admit to his double standards & fallacious reasoning. That being sad, I think he knows his arguments had flat in this debate.

[@tomellis4750]

He's nearer his pension than Alex.

[@davidevans3223]

Why because he's willing to say he doesn't understand you know bad can be good a disciplined child will have a better life yet that's bad nobody likes doing it

[@ImStayGold42]

@@davidevans3223 is that a question? Try again after you figure out how sentences work. 🤦‍♂️

[@dericanslum1696]

...imagine a time when barrons rhetoric would have come across as so wise and convincing... ...now thank yourself that you're well beyond that...

[@thorstenkoethe]

That´s exactly my point: why no celebration when people die? It´s a type of egoism because a friend, a family member is not arround anymore. But why not be happy, because the dead one is now in a much better "life", isn´t he?

[@emezih]

That was amazing. Somehow Alex managed to lay a trap in front of the Bishop, point at it multiple times and still have the Bishop grab the bait! Impressive.

[@PilsnerGrip]

I like how the bishop finally cracks and admits "it's acknowledgement of god's sovereignty" so it matches perfectly to the mob boss analogy, "I'm god, it would be shame if you doubted my reasons for hurting you"

[@jyotiradityadigal6010]

All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. - Edgar Allan Poe

[@willkoestner4159]

I am fond of the poetry, actually, despite the first 3.

[@majestic-domination]

Yep. Conmen had an idea to both control poor people and squeeze them out of money, killing two birds with one stone: "Give us money and do what we want, and you will be rewarded *after you die* ." It's a clever scam taking advantage of gullible ancient people who desperately wanted out of poverty and suffering.

[@nathanmosqueda3185]

Citation

[@stechriswillgil3686]

The guy dressed up as a vicar or priest is a patronising pseud. He has an eye for the main chance and is media savvy; knowing that his core audience are not very bright teenagers. He’s trying to mock the younger guy by dismissing him as young and naive with his demeanour and body language. The young fella is really bright : seriously , really bright !

[@Nathan-Croft]

Bishop Barron in his head: This 23 years old ruins my whole career

[@nemo2327]

😂😂😂😂

[@holdonwhatsgoingon5551]

*alex begins to speak* Bishop: intense sweating

[@Nathan-Croft]

@@holdonwhatsgoingon5551 Literally, he tries to fake a smile but he can't

[@HarryNicNicholas]

sadly the barron thinks he's right. these religious types can't admit their wrong even inside their own heads.

[@WolforNuva]

This is a fair point, if an emotional one. If my loved one dies, then I have to grieve and accept that the world can be cruel sometimes and move on. If a Christian's loved one dies, then they have to accept that their loved one's death was better than if they had lived, the world will ultimately be a better place because they died. That pill must be especially bitter if by their theology, their loved one didn't meet the requirements to be saved. They will never see them again, know that the person they valued so highly is being tortured for eternity, and then accept that this is the best possible outcome.

[@silverlining2677]

Bishop's interruption really exposed his bias. He just couldn't handle such a criticism within his own world view. You nailed it, Alex.

[@Jordanmode]

Clergy, theologians, apologists… none of them know quite what they’re getting into when they sign on to debate Alex.

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

So when my mom died from cancer, with great suffering for her and my family...gods plan. Well, god can do some explaining to me when i see him then.

[@YourAverageReviews]

Everytime I see a clip with Barron in it out reminds me how sometimes the smartest people can be so good at misleading and side stepping the question or point. He is really good at just rambling.

[@tonydarcy1606]

I am grateful that for this clip the Bishop didn't mention the name of Aquinas, phew ! In the real world, shit happens, and we do our best to deal with it. Yes someone died, but we are still here and have to get on with things. The "better place" where souls are supposed to go, is pure fiction and completely unprovable.

[@jacquelinephillips5066]

The Bishop’s sayings ( not calling them arguments, bc their are not) are so perfectly disarmed and shown as nonsense by Alex.. how wonderfully put and articulated! Thank you Alex!

[@Renato404]

A this is what memes would call a AlexSlap😂😂😂

[@ronniegeorge3152]

You use a Hitchens-esque style of delivery sometimes. Really noticeable in this clip with your "Thank goodness that this has been allowed to happen!" and your delivery of the single word "nonsense" at Vegan Camp Out immediately made me think of Hitchens lol

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

Actually, Alex posted a critique of Hitchens somewhere, saw it recently. He seems to think some atheist arguments are bad ones. No doubt they are, but no worse than religious arguments that have no substance at all.

[@ronniegeorge3152]

@@Leszek.Rzepecki that wasn't what I was saying but yes I know that

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@ronniegeorge3152 If I weren't a cat owner, I'd consider veganism. I like Hitchens, but it was interesting to learn where he went wrong. And from someone 40 years my junior at that! I'm quite impressed by Alex.

[@meltedsnowman9637]

@@Leszek.Rzepecki He did also mention in that same critique that Hitches is one of his greatest influences. Alex absolutely has a deep admiration for Hitches. However he is also willing to criticise even his idols when they make a bad point.

[@EddieFye3414]

I’m always fascinated how apologists like the bishop evade their own cognitive dissonance.

[@ConradSpoke]

It's extraordinary that theologians are still trying to 'logic' god into existence. Particularly when their arguments have been so thoroughly and consistently battered by so many challengers like Alex O'Connor. It's masochistic.

[@andresvillarreal9271]

As an engineer, I fully agree with Bishop Barron. If the building that I constructed has collapsed, the good people in it will go to heaven without more suffering here, and the bad people will go to hell before they have more chances to do harm. And even if one of the good people was destined to do great good on Earth, God acts in mysterious ways. If I am a Catholic, all of my bases are covered. Also, the person that was about to cure cancer and died in my building would have made a tiny, tiny contribution to the wellbeing of humanity, compared with just one person going to heaven and getting infinite wellbeing. Of course, I do not believe a single word of what I wrote, but it shows how the over-promising that the Church does is detrimental in every possible way. Christianity is a cult of death, not life.

[@shroomer8294]

Serial killer would agree.

[@andresvillarreal9271]

@@shroomer8294 Exactly. The serial killer is just as much of a sinner as a kid who was just baptized and has done nothing bad other than crying. Both carry the Original Sin and one sin is the same as a million, and presumably, both have not yet repented of their sins.

[@JD-ro7xe]

It's difficult to believe that the power that created this universe would say 'Carry my cross and follow me'.

[@pantopia3518]

It always amazes me when I talk to Christians how dense they can be, and how little they know or even care about the questions of faith. If the creator of the universe really did write or inspire a book we can use to learn God’s will then it would be the most important thing conceivable, yet most Christians know shockingly little about the bible

[@davidevans3223]

Thats me I'm a Christian and haven't read the bible but the free world only exists because of Jesus that's a fact what it replaced was human sacrifices in the Americas cannibalism was normal in Africa and wife burning in India when a husband died was also culture Christians stopped as it was immoral to us. Not sure understanding the bible is as important as the results is it

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

I'm a Christian and i agree with your point to certain extent. It's not because they have not read the bible. They're just not open about discussing their faith to anyone who challenges it. But that's not how it's supposed to be. The earliest Christians like paul, peter etc were open to discuss their faith with others and even went ahead to convert others. Not all Christians are like this though Also, i partly blame the modern chirch for not training Christians well in knowing the bible that's why they're close minded

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

@Steve Doud i agree with your point. I myself disagree with those Christians who are not open to discuss their religious beliefs with others who don't believe in them. U didn't read my post well

[@davidevans3223]

@Steve Doud you seem to keep using free will wrong you can't have free will with limites and we crawled out of the sea we are only alive because out answers were the most evil at some point we got a soul. And no in the Americas child sacrifices was the growing culture in Africa cannibalism was normal in India when a husband died his usually younger wife was burned alive and slavery was the norm all over the world it's only recently seen as bad ironically we all still benefit from slaves including kid's yet no one actually cares. You have a belief animal's are even close to as important as humans it's not true 1 person is worth infinite number of animal's that's life even vegans agree otherwise you certainly wouldn't have kid's and set a limit on how many animals you can pay to be killed for each meal or life time so it's a fact we as humans agree 1 person is worth infinite number of animal's

[@tmjewel]

@@davidevans3223 That's right. It took the Christian faith 1800 years to progress morally to the point to recognize the inhumanity of Slavery? Or maybe the Abolition movements being so far removed had nothing to do with the Christian faith or its Bible. Speaking of which you should read Exodus chapter 21.

[@airficetimehunter1317]

Actually, one minister of a church I used to attend (a protestant church) told us that we should thank god for the bad things that happen to us, because those were for good, and to honour his authority. Man, that was sick.

[@blisguy]

God gets all of the credit and none of the blame

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

I remember watching this whole thing. Every time he said about of Latin words for no reason I had to take deep breaths to keep myself from destroying my phone.

[@macmac1022]

I am an agnostic and I do kind of celebrate it. The first time I was confronted with death of a loved relative was my grandmother when I was about 8. Now she loved to see me laugh and be happy so if I wanted to honor her or is she is looking down on me, I think the last thing she would want to see is her death causing me sadness. There is not much I can do to stop death so the best thing I can do is to try and live a happy life. My aunt saw me smiling and I could tell from the look on her face she thought my smile was twisted and I was not crying when everyone else was. I told her afterwards and she understood and even told me later she remembered that and it helped her. Now just think that I am thankful for the time I get to spend with good people. I even want a celebration of life instead of a funeral. If I got the money, free booze for my family and friends as they like free booze weddings hehehehee.

[@christopherlin4706]

Exactly we should celebrate when others mourn and mourn when others celebrate. But be sensitive and realistic about how you do it of course. We must garner wisdom to allow ourselves to willingly undergo pain in our lives to defeat suffering. It is the only way to defeat suffering is to embrace pain.

[@crossjadam]

I can't tell if the bishop just isn't understanding your point or if he's just purposely ignoring/side stepping it. It's a shame because it's a really good point. I find it very rude that he is laughing as well, it makes him come off as even more of an idiot.

[@jonsprague9751]

I find it interesting that Bishop Barron, and other theists elaborate so, on what God is..what He thinks...why He does this and that...etc. Just one man's opinion in a cacophony of opinions. I am getting tired of hearing all of the pathetic excuses and reasons. D you theists even listen to what you are saying? Time for God, or Jesus, or Muhammad or whatever your flavor of deity you subscribe to, to step up and tell it like it is... huh...like that will ever happen...lol...nope..instead we get to listen to just another man, with just another opinion, drivel on ...and on...and on.. Respect to Alex for having the patience to do what he does. Keep up the good work!

[@blakewest5162]

You can tell this is really annoying the bishop because he’s interrupting and just dying to cut Alex off at each turn.

[@dyinteriors]

The bishop’s views proves the the logic of faith is completely that of a mad man. Does the man in holy orders even know how insane his logic actually sounds to the rest of us? I sincerely doubt it as cognitive dissonance is something he is more than willing to live with.

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

I'm a Christian and the pastors argument is weak. He doesn't represent all Christianity so pls dont insult us. If God supported evil, he wouldn't make laws against it

[@dyinteriors]

@@randominterestingvideos4733, it is worse than that. It states in your Bible, Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” So your god has an awful lot to answer for as his own book states it as so. I do not believe in your god nor do I care what your holy book has to say, but if I were a Christian I would know what the heck I was believing in and what my foundational documents actually say. If I were a Christian, I would find it all so very embarrassing.

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

@@dyinteriors the verse is out of context and was talking about a specific situation. How about u read the whole chapter The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture - that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

@@dyinteriors honestly, stop cherry picking bible verses. Seriously, it's really ignorant without reading the whole context. Be humble and study the bible very well and u would know the truth. Christians ain't ignorant people. We don't mindlessly believe in stuff. We study things meticulously before reaching conclusions

[@dyinteriors]

@@randominterestingvideos4733 nonsense! You need to learn to read your Bible correctly. Your apologetics do not in any way discredit the words of Yahweh who crates all things including evil. All things come from your god including all the that exists and to would have to include evil as well. The Old Testament is covered in the evil of your god from slaughtering entire races of people, global genocide, baby killing, to making bets on people’s lives with the opposer Satan. Your Yahweh is in fact, evil personified. Read your Bible, it is all there in black and white. It is a monstrous book of complete depravity and at the center of it all is the god Christians worship. I certainly would not worship such an evil figure.

[@endeuinable]

Not sure if the bishop had a good come back after the clip, but this clip's final statement from Alex landed loudly.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

The Bishop certainly has word salad and question evading down. It follows that if Christians really believe that they and their fellow believers are going to heaven for eternity then they should welcome and celebrate death. They should be over the moon when a believer kicks the bucket. Similarly, When a non-believer passes away they should be inconsolable and devastated, they should be beside themselves with grief because they believe that person is going to hell.

[@waveman0]

and like Christopher Hitchens said, at the crucifixion, you would be duty-bound and ethically bound to intervene to stop it. No one who has a conscience could sit by and watch such an event and no stop it no matter how much 'good' it could do. Besides vicarious atonement isn't moral anyway......

[@youwaisef]

I actually pushed the problem of evil to the side for a long time now thinking the traditional argument for the existence of God are more worth spending time on. But, this is the second time I see Alex focusing on dealing with theodicies and coming up with very interesting arguments against them. I feel like I should focus on the problem of evil again thanks to Alex. I'm liking these clips.

[@Pjvenom1985]

Interesting perspective and points Alex, well done.🌠🧠🌱

[@LittleDays]

Excellent work!!!

[@MichaelDwyer1980]

I think the question most people are asking more specifically is how could an all good, all knowing God permit evil to exist (or how could the angel Lucifer who was created good become evil)? The question then arises as to what we understand to be ‘evil’? We know that our being or existence is good in and of itself, and that all things created are themselves good. If we accept that God only created what is good in varying degrees, we must conclude that evil cannot itself be something created. Evil must therefore be an absence of what is good. In the same way cold is measured by the absence of heat, darkness by the absence of light, so it follows that ‘evil’ is measured by the absence of good. The question then arises as to how Lucifer could become evil if it was not a created ‘thing’ to be chosen and he himself was good. From the prior statements we can logically conclude that Lucifer chose to turn to the lesser good over a greater good, in this case he chose to turn to himself (a created creature that was good) over God (the creator of goodness). That choice was only possible thanks to his capacity for free will AND in being a free moral agent, where he could choose to abandon a greater good for a lesser good. Being created morally perfect as an angel did not make him immutable. Possessing the moral freedom to choose the highest good entails the possibility to choose a lesser good and consequently entails the possibility for evil.

[@rodbrewster4629]

If God's plan is all about good despite the evil ways and means why can't he explain it to us. Until he does why would you worship him.

[@lilmsgs]

Alex is such an awesome thinker

[@MonicaHernandez-yn8ct]

I'm so mad. My daughter and my son in law have Covid. He started to feel dizzy and confused. I told him that was a normal Covid symptom. He needed to be patient. He decided to go to the hospital. I told him he would be released with some medication. He decided to have an MRI. Ocourse the MRI wasfclear. My religious family said the prayers worked. What about all the people who die even with prayers? And what about what I told him, that he didn't have anything serious? No. All is about the prayerd

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

Why, in heaven or earth, would Jesus cry over Lazarus before raising him from the dead? Makes no sense at all.

[@dracobuilder6707]

Because of the consequences of sin, and the suffering it caused to Lazarus and those around him. Just because I know someone can be cured does not mean I ignore their current suffering and do not hurt with them.

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@dracobuilder6707 Let me see, an omniscient god created humans knowing full well that they would sin, then punished them for sinning. Check, makes perfect sense. And if Jesus knew he'd resurrect Lazarus, what's the point of shedding tears? Why not avoid it in the first place? After all, your god is omnipotent as well. Your religion makes zero sense, which is why I no longer believe it.

[@dracobuilder6707]

@@Leszek.Rzepecki Again he could shed tears for the reasons I mentioned. Assuming love is the supreme ethic, then you cannot create a world without allowing free will. Free will is required for love. If you were going to have kids, you would know they would disobey you at some point, why punish them if you knew they were going to do it in the first place considering you were the one who brought them into the world?

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

@@dracobuilder6707 How do you define "free will"? Free from what? And what does the choosing? It's an interesting question but not one I have a hard answer for. Human parents don't know what their children will do, and discipline them when they stray from whatever path the parent thinks is right. The Christian god, on the other hand, is omniscient and knows exactly what each and every human will do. Therefore he must have created them to do that. He created them knowing what their fate would be. Your religion isn't mine, I have none because no other made any more sense than Christianity, but I think you really have a problem there that you have yet to consider, let alone answer.

[@dracobuilder6707]

@@Leszek.Rzepecki Free to make a choice one way or another with consequences to follow. Not simply programmed a certain way so you act a certain way. He did not create mankind to disobey Him, but he did know they would. Again you know your child will disobey. You may not know specifics, but you know enough.

[@FutureVegan]

That's just insane...I'd love to debate you it would be such a challenge...if only I disagreed with you on something...

[@truerealrationalist]

We should each grieve in our own way.

[@alexnunn1932]

My Christian guest is losing! Quick move the goal posts!

[@sandosham]

So obvious that even men (believing they are smart) cannot defend a stupid irrational idea. A rational and critical mind destroys the house of cards. Alex did so by showing such civility.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

I would have loved to hear whatever b******* he was going to spew next

[@theinformedvegan6758]

the nerve of someone to compare the moral consequences of writing a misfortunate character to causing a real life breathing being misfortune?? huh??

[@christopherlin4706]

A solemn celebration is actually right, Alex. Very wise. But you must celebrate it correctly, we celebrate the themes and lessons we learned and all the good in humanity from the experience, since an event is not just some meaningless occurrence, it involves the contributions and lives of many peoples all struggling together. There’s an ancient Chinese proverb in which an man lost his horse. His horse ran away from him into barbarian territory. People were sorry for him. His father said to him, “who knows this is a good luck?” The horse came back one day with multiple good horses and everyone has thought this was a good thing. His father told him, “who knows, this could be a bad thing” the man broke his leg one day from riding a horse, people in the village all said it was a bad thing. The old man says,” Who says this is. A bad thing” then the barbarians invaded and because the man has a broken leg, he didn’t go to battle and the man and his father lived. Thus I would even say that though we feel good when what we think is good happens, we should mourn, and when what is bad happens, we should celebrate, in the ebb and flow of life, existence itself is Good stays the same and if we are not attached to the outcome and enjoy the process, we will find ourselves being able to allow this goodness to flourish in us. Good is not to be derived from the outside, but a fruit of the inside

[@aaronbarreguin.4211]

Yes. Death is a lament but also a celebration.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

The Bishop is immensely hypocritical here.

[@davethebrahman9870]

Brierley is a ‘company man’. When a strong point is made against Christianity he wants to ‘move along’.

[@revolutionaryevolution3794]

i think I'll go back to this kind of debate again

[@SunsetHoney615]

Ah yes. The old “God works in mysterious ways”.

[@christopherlin4706]

Yes he does, and it replicates the hero’s journey.

[@satanofficial3902]

"A jorming groftpot natters no zoobles." ---Albert Einstein

[@86645ut]

A simple question for the bishop: how does he know what he claims he knows? Where's the evidence? Even if he had some, how would he verify/justify it? I was as deluded as him most of my 76 years and I grew up. Sad.

[@octem2251]

That's not how philosophy and metaphysics work. You will never find evidence of evil, concepts like power, beauty and God are not made of particles. Science is easier, you just have to look hard and nature will provide the answers

[@86645ut]

@@octem2251 , philosophy and metaphysics DON’T work to understand reality because there’s no way to verify/justify their claims. They are unfalsifiable. If it was different, there would be a consensus of opinion.

[@octem2251]

@@86645ut Yet the very fabric of society and the way we see the world have been built upon those ideas. Maybe you will be lucky and in your very last moments you will realize how much of your entire existence wasshaped by thing that don't "exist"

[@86645ut]

@@octem2251 , how about YOU answer my question to the bishop.

[@ojasapratim5319]

I smashed my ipad because baron’s points made my ear bleed.

[@niveshproag3761]

The bishop maintaining the lip thingy that Bill Clinton made when lying about Monica Lewinsky does not inspire confidence.

[@helenedgington3135]

As an atheist I never did understand the absolute grief that my mother-in-law and very devout Catholics like her felt when their loved ones died. If they truly believed in the religion they followed they would not be as upset as non believers by this loss as they knew they were going to meet them again and that they were going to a “ better place”. This always called into question that in a deeper place they did not believe words of the religion they so faithfully followed.🤔

[@tooniyeoni]

they mainly grieve for the sole reason that they can’t see them physically at the moment they want too. someone who is religious can believe that they will see their loved ones again and that they are in a better place but for some it is not enough to ease the suffering of not being able to physically see them or touch them. grief isn’t a straight line and it’s also a very strong emotion that if strong enough makes one forget their religious teachings about the afterlife. good to have an open mind and a psychological look as into why this happens to religious folks. they’re still humans and still experience human emotions, it is not so strange for them to submit to human nature

[@georgeholliday1071]

Wittgenstein clears these sorts of debates to an extent. The two interlocutors are operating within different language games so to speak. What is more than that, one is underpinned by a sort of rationality which invokes agency. The other (theologian) does not- at least it does not need to. The issue with Christians is that they smuggle agency to God yet a true concept of God is that which transcends rationality. Ultimately that is all what God can be. Hence really, in theory, we are all just agnostics arguing against language.

[@cynthiaharvey6155]

Did you REALLY think he meant that kind of celebration? I know NOT because I've heard SO CALLED RELIGIOUS FOLK call such things as funeral services a CELEBRATION throughout my life so I think you are being some what sarcastic. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH C'SKEPTIC..... This is also why I choose NOT to speak at such services ANYMORE IS BECAUSE I WILL NOT GIVE ANY HOPE FROM READING BIBLE SCRIPTURES AS I USED TO DO. I AM A FORMER JW AND I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO THINK ANYMORE SINCE I DISASSOCIATED MYSELF. C'Skept you be killing it EVERY TIME AND THIS IS WITHOUT MISSING A BEAT......

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation from a theist as to what sort of lesson he is giving the parents of a child born with type 1 diabetes who dies at 18 months old.

[@davidevans3223]

There's pain and suffering all over all the time but one thing we know is life is short very short and no amount of suffering is to much for eternal life in paradise

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

What type of explaining do u want? I'm listening

[@davidevans3223]

I'm not sure why you believe it's a lesson it's a fact of life when most people suffered from some kind of disease or parasites most kid's died very hard life people still clearly believed it was worth living we have come along way in medicine but clearly we still have a long way to go I suppose we could lòok at it as a lesson to keep trying

[@randominterestingvideos4733]

@Steve Doud let me ask u a question. A woman knows how wicked this world is and the downsides of having a baby. She knows even most women die when they go to Labour yet she chooses to have a baby despite all the injustice in this world. Does this mean all women are dumb or wicked for getting pregnant and bringing babies to this world since they know all this? Why did your mom give birth to u despite knowing one day u could be kidnapped, raped, or shot dead? If u answer this, u have answered your question

[@richard2732]

Good points! Well made!

[@nathanduclos5045]

you know your agreement sucks when the mod has to save you, mr bishop.

[@Theadrianreason]

I love how barons face while listening is always a bit like "fuck..."

[@cliffcarbone555]

PULLING THREADS PODCAST (Find us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your favorite Podcasts.) Questioning our beliefs can be a scary process. I know it was for me. But the process can bring great healing and freedom. Join the PULLING THREADS podcast team every Sunday to listen to the stories of those who have gone through faith deconstruction and pulling of their own threads. We long to create a safe place where people can feel comfortable and unashamed in asking questions and perhaps, pulling on the threads of their own ‘sweater.’ Hope to have you join us!

[@cosmicprison9819]

2:26 Since he called Alex's statement an appeal to emotion, I was hoping for Alex to in turn call him out on his blatant appeal to ignorance here. People shouldn't get away with simply asserting stuff like that. Sure, we have Hitchen's razor on our side here, but that rarely convinces anyone who already believes something to drop those beliefs.

[@cosmicprison9819]

1:07 Based. 😁 Yes, as a hobby writer, I fully admit I prefer to only force a life full of suffering on *fictional* people.

[@lairdleod]

Thank you Alex.

[@joebriggs5781]

Bishops out of his league here. He’s much better on platforms that only Catholics watch and just nod agree with him without thinking for themselves.

[@ritawing1064]

Oh Justin! The adolescent search for meaning. Either you make your own meaning (Primo Levi) or you don't: that's what there is.

[@kwekuaggrey622]

Alex appealing to logic and reasoning in a debate with someone who isn't permitted to appreciate same is the sucker for me.

[@lit2701]

This hole talking point of "bad as a requirement of good" implies, in my view, something like a point of equilibrium. A point in which the amount of suffering is exactly such that the Good in the world is at a maximum. But this sounds to me like a limitation for gods actions. Where does this equilibrium point come from? Was it set at exactly this rate of Good to Bad by god? Then why doesnt he change it so that there is no bad? Any other option implies that there is a "substructure". Laws of existance that god needs to obey. Where do they come from? How is that compatible with god as the source of everything?

[@RustyWalker]

If you have a friend who's dying, one thing you can say is, "Can I get you some water?"

[@EatHoneyBeeHappy]

Robert Barron reminds me of the Autistic Reporter Michael Faulk skit from The Onion's satire videos, when he goes to Afghanistan and finds out that the US soldiers are sad but the terrorists are happy when their comrades die and go to their creator.

[@nevis4567]

Why can't people admit they're wrong

[@henrique-barnard]

Fully agree with you Alex

[@onlythesauce889]

Yea I’m not sure but I personally don’t think good comes about from every bad situation. I think it can but that doesn’t mean it does. I’m thinking that sometimes we can recognize something as a both a tragedy and a cause for celebration, although yea ultimately you would probably need to decide which one is more appropriate. In terms of God’s will, I don’t think people can ever say that God’s will is definitely being enacted unless it pretty clearly relates to someone being inspired by his word (assuming proper interpretation) and that leading to some action or if it references something stated in the Bible as originating from God (like the creation of humans being God’s will). In the case of people being inspired this would only be God working indirectly through people anyways and even then people could argue is it really God’s will or are you falsely interpreting the Bible (although I think the Bible is usually pretty clear in the core of God’s will but ofc people argue over specifics especially in light of our modern issues)

[@krati1200]

Celebrations are after we experience good. A baby girl wont celebrate her pregnancy (that she will get one day) in her childhood. It's after she actually gets.

[@ludovicoc7046]

At a glance I always see "theodicy" as "the idiocy."

[@maxwaller2055]

*1:09 PM Pacific Daylight Savings Time on Tuesday, 2 November 2021 Common Era or CE formerly known as Ano Domini or AD*

[@ChavaLeEtranger]

i've always thought: if my friends and family believe either in reincarnation or an afterlife or heaven or whatever... why do they see death as a tragedy? in my opinion they should all be looking forward to it...

[@patrikgrguric535]

I love how calm and relaxed this conversation is. Both sides are sincere and tbh completely understandable. THIS is what debates in general should be like.

[@Qzopr1]

Depends entirely on who died.

[@cartesiancircle]

These theillogical charlatans pretending to know that which we don't know is a continuing embarrassment.such certainty , conviction ,lack of humility is dangerous.