Could Goten & Trunks Beat Perfect Cell?

#dragonball #anime #manga
Today we analyze two of the most underrated characters in Dragonball Z, Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks. Are they powerful enough to defeat Perfect Cell, or is someone like Frieza a better opponent?
0:00 - Introduction
1:43 - Goten vs Gohan
3:40 - Gohan vs Cell
4:22- Post Training
5:37- Beyond Buu Saga

[@SupercharizardEx]

Prior to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Trunks and Goten don’t stand much of a chance against Perfect Cell. Because Gohan gets weaker over the time period that he spent not training, which is stated directly by Vegeta after he sees Gohan struggling against Dabura (Goku also admits this as well), the comparison between Gohan and Goten involves a significantly weaker Gohan during the beginning of the Buu Saga.

[@lonkstakes]

Acording to Vegeta Gohan is weaker when he "defeated cell", which was when Gohan was amped and also potentially using all of his energy at once in a single attack. Something that doesnt scale to his power normally.

[@KolaTheBear]

​@Lonk's Takes Right. He was fighting Dabura, who they said was stronger than SPC. He just wasn't as strong as himself when he was pissed off.

[@Andrea-dw1ps]

@@lonkstakes you are taking things too literally, vegeta basically said you are weaker than teen ssj2 gohan, thats it. Ssj2 teen gohan is probably a bit stronger than pre majin vegeta ssj2 , when goku transformed in ssj2 against majin vegeta he said "you are even stronger than how gohan was, impressive" , and piccolo said that majin vegeta was not that much stronger than kid gohan .

[@SuperBlueGamer9000]

​@@KolaTheBear actually it was stated he was on par with SPC not stronger

[@Andrea-dw1ps]

@@SuperBlueGamer9000 later in the fight Goku said "magic? He might be stronger than we tought"

[@JSun3000]

If they fuse,YES.End of story.

[@doctorspindash2.086]

No contact. cell can't even hold a candle to them

[@ray.4k44]

gotenks easily one shots perfect cell in his super saiyan form not even 3, maybe even base would solo him. if ssj2 gohan was able to two shot perfect cell into his semi perfect. gotenks would kill him just by a gut punch

[@omnijonn277]

You won't like this but Base Goten and Trunks in Super Hero would one shot Super Perfect Cell because of what they did to Cellmax. The writers know if Goten and Trunks did fuse perfectly then Beast Gohan wouldn't have happen

[@doctorspindash2.086]

@@omnijonn277 well they technically did fuse but it wasn't until the end and we didn't even get to see it

[@joesmith-cn8qx]

​@@omnijonn277 LOL they didnt do anything to cellmax worthy of praise

[@DaniG._.German]

As strong as they are, I honestly believe that Trunks and Goten would find a reason to fumble the bag when fighting Cell. Gohan got his dad killed, Kami knows (do you get it?) what damage those two would have caused.

[@shoken4421]

@mr._.moustache they got absorbed by Buu when they weren't looking,that's not fumbling anything,that's a sneak attack ,cell has no sneak attacks stop down playing these two when fat Buu alone is stronger than cell

[@SuperPeterok]

I feel like they would find a way to fumble the bag against Raditz lol

[@KarmaAnims]

@@shoken4421 They were taking the Buu fight like it was a game, making up goofy attack names for normal punches and such, if they were serious, I think SSJ3 Gotenks could've done something against Super Buu.

[@rneico14]

@@KarmaAnims they had more than enough power they stated but they wanted to show off and have fun which is understandable for a 7 and 8 yr old

[@rneico14]

@@SuperPeterok ...

[@cantstopbrock]

Just at 4:03 The El Manga Legendario isn’t saying that SSJ Gohan is above Cell, it’s saying that Gohan knows that the power within him (SSJ2) exceeds Cell. It references a panel that would lead into Gohan talking about his anger and how Goku’s counting on that. And simply reading the Manga or watching the Anime tells anyone that Cell exceeds SSJ Gohan, and this is a Cell that wasn’t using his full power.

[@Unknownslenderman]

^This I kinda feel as though the face value interpretations given in the video aren't really what the text meant at face value, but instead the most favourable interpretation of those statements possible. That being said, since Goku was able to give a decent fight to that Cell, and Gohan was around the same strength, I can see Goten and/or Trunks /maybe/ being able to pull up a decent fight as well, just probably not being able to win, though I do think their base seems a bit weaker than Gohan's, which is already weaker than he was back then

[@cantstopbrock]

@@Unknownslendermanonestly applying Gotenks’ RoSaT boost to Goten & Trunks could put them above Perfect Cell. Otherwise yeah, they’re still at the very least in the same league as like Grade 4 Goku & Gohan which is WAY above what most people say. Also I’m not gonna rewatch this video but I don’t remember it bringing up that Boo Saga Piccolo mentions that Goten & Trunks are Earth’s final hope (before knowing about Fusion). And like you could excuse Boo taking Piccolo’s appearance later as Goten & Trunks being in Base. There’s also that Cell Jr stuff in the DBS Manga.

[@batguy39]

Peak EML, but ew pinche tard at the Time Chamber

[@idonthaveacreativename6504]

@@Unknownslenderman Gohan was not around Goku's strength is pretty consistently implied that he actually firmly above him in power. When goku powers up in front of Korrin and ask him to gauge his power compared to cell even though goku is only going 50 percent in the scene we see that Korrin states he would lose. Meanwhile gohan is actually surprised thinking that goku is holding back way more power. Gohan believes himself to be around or a little below goku's strength but its shown through implications that gohan actually has surpassed goku he simply doesn't believe that he has.

[@MegasXRL]

@@idonthaveacreativename6504gohan on his SSJ normal was definitely above SSJ goku, he implies that. SSJ2 is a 2x times multiplier so if Gohan SSJ2 > Super Perfect Cell (SSJ2) Then Ssj gohan > perfect cell But gohan at ssj2 was boosted by rage too, his power was unlocked so maybe he got a bigger multiplier. Maybe cell at full power was stronger than SSJ Gohan (but yet gohan was stronger than goku). We don’t know because gohan refuses to fight at all

[@sourlesscream1272]

i do think Super Perfect Cell would still win, if they don't fuse, just simply like you said, they do lack control and discipline when it comes to fighting and utilizing there power. cell is smart enough to use that against them, considering who he is made up of he defiantly would to gain an advantage. now when they fuse, it would be no contest, especially if they go SSJ3

[@crimsonninja4097]

I agree Goten and Trunks are underestimated quite a bit but the argument that they were anywhere near Gohan even after slacking is ridiculous. Vegeta himself was still training to defeat Gohan before the dead Goku showed up, I seriously doubt he would've trained Trunks to defeat Goten if Trunks had power on par with Gohan That having been said they were still extremely powerful considering they could fight Android 18

[@christiancinnabars1402]

Vegeta wasn’t training to defeat Gohan. He was training to prepare for a potential future rematch with Goku (which he got). Vegeta was roasting tf out of Gohan when he was fighting Dabura, stating that he or Goku would have won that fight easily.

[@gorge1365]

A supressed Android 18, she doesn’t wanted to hurt them nor kill them. Ask Vegeta😅

[@crimsonninja4097]

@@christiancinnabars1402 sorry to burst your bubble but Goku was dead at the time and they had no way of wishing him back so Vegeta wasn't training for a future time to fight Goku that was the whole point of him being depressed about never getting the chance to defeat his rival at the time. Also Vegeta specifically says he trained to be stronger than Gohan when Gohan goes to Bulmas to get an outfit

[@crimsonninja4097]

@@gorge1365 the fact they didn't end up like Cell Jr's getting hit by ss2 Gohan proves they are pretty strong though in terms of raw power a a Super Saiyan Goten or Trunks would be more powerful than Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku but Goku's his experience and martial arts were better.

[@gorge1365]

@@crimsonninja4097 Im pretty sure they are un par but not above SSJ Goku Namek Saga

[@MajinBird]

I watched this blow up right in front of my eyes Keep this up man, you deserve much more than what you have.

[@g_hyperstar3609]

SSJ Gohan was not stronger than Perfect Cell at full power. Goku's statement of him being stronger than Cell refered to his hidden power, aka SSJ2. Gohan is also in a sort of mentality where he unknowingly holds back his power, so even if Goten and Trunks were relative to Cell Games SSJ Gohan, they aren't beating Perfect Cell Post-Time Chamber Goten and Trunks may be able to beat Cell, but their arrogance will get the better of them allowing Cell to defeat them

[@batguy39]

Fuckin W my guy

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

Except he was. Literally from guides and manga statements

[@liklik7490]

​@@antoinepolnareff8970I was just gonna say this, there are so many things that directly say super saiyan Gohan was the strongest person at the cell games. Also Goku even comments on the fact that Gohan was the only person able to follow his and cell's fight even saying it was SLOW.

[@Krackerz92]

@@liklik7490 Exactly this, Gohan thought Goku and Cell weren't fighting at full power because he sensed their power to be below his own.

[@Eric-ct2ri]

@@liklik7490 but even if gohan was stronger he wasnt going to beat cell because he wasnt a good fighter. goku went first specifically to give gohan a heads up on how cell fights. infact prior to going ssj2 he was losing to the supposedly weaker cell.

[@horrorsymphony]

Awesome video! Keep up the great work!

[@sauce_martinez1859]

Bro I want to say your channel is gonna blow really good quality content you are making!! Keep going

[@zantetsu75]

In the Yo! Son Goku Special, with Avo and Cado, Goten and Trunks were given an explicit scale to work with, essentially being stated to individually be around the strength of Namek Saga SSJ Goku and Full Power Frieza. While it can be debated whether that should be treated as canon, I would assert that this scale is pretty consistent with their showings in the show proper, with the mighty mask fight vs 18. It also wouldn't really contradict Gohan being impressed with their power because Namek saga Frieza still scaled above every non-saiyan or android character (and piccolo) as of the Buu saga, thus making that strength impressive.

[@dontgoonthischannel1221]

Surprisingly Goten and Trunks may be way weaker in that episode. Tarble should only know about 1st form frieza meaning that Goten and Trunks in base are only at 1st form frieza level which is 6 times weaker than namek saga Goku's base. That scaling makes some sense as when Goten fought Gohan in sparring before the martial arts tournament they both made a comment during or after the spar on how Goten still had a long way to go before he could surpass Gohan but still had the potential to do it

[@flamedomian6889]

And also a fusion of goten and trunks that are even frieza lvl full power or mecha wouldn't do anything against buu

[@taranshah4263]

In the most recent manga chapters, they were seen keeping up with Super Saiyan Gohan as Super Saiyans themselves in a 2v1. This is the Gohan that is able to keep up with UI Goku in Beast form. 6 years prior to this in the DB timeline, we saw Goku absorb the power of the universe destroying Super Saiyan God into his base form. Assuming Super Saiyan Gohan could keep up with Super Saiyan Goku, and assuming Goku got *A LOT* stronger in the past 6 years, we can assume that Goten and Trunks are far above Super Saiyan God Goku from the Beerus Saga. Makes no sense, right? That’s DB power scaling for you.

[@Alienldr]

I feel there are misinterpretations. If they were as strong as Gohan at that time, they would have done a lot more. Gohan even trained with Goten a little, and even though he was surprised by his strength, Gohan wasn't exactly overwhelmed enough to suggest he is the same strength as him. The way the show and manga implies, i would say base Goten and base Trunks together would be similar in power to base Gohan, so they're each roughly half his strength. Or maybe that text implies goten and trunks individually are stronger at their age as Gohan was at that same age (similar to Gohan's power around the beginning of the 3 year time skip when he trained for the androids.

[@SRT_DRE]

By this fools logic, Goten and Trunks could’ve beaten Dabura who was stated to be as strong as Perfect Cell. There’s no way Goten and Trunks could’ve beaten Dabura and Dabura doesn’t even have regeneration or Zenkai boost abilities like Cell.

[@t1h_tvj212]

@@SRT_DREdabura was stronger than cell but go off I guess.

[@SRT_DRE]

@@t1h_tvj212 no he wasn’t 😂 Gohan was beating Dabura. Go back and watch the fight. At the very least they were equal in power and Gohan in the Buu Saga was wayyyyyy weaker than his 12 year old form. Goku compared Dabura to Cell but he literally never felt Super Perfect Cell’s power. Cell would wash Dabura.

[@t1h_tvj212]

@@SRT_DRE gohan beating dabura doesn’t take away from my statement because gohan was also stronger than super perfect cell . Also goku states that dabura is stronger than cell not equal . Also goku did feel super perfects cells power , goku was able to feel king Kai’s energy from earth so what makes you think he can’t sense super perfect cells power from king Kai’s planet. You can use all the laughing emojis u want but u just got fried .

[@SRT_DRE]

@@t1h_tvj212 bruh. Just stop. That’s a wild statement. You must’ve watched the Buu Saga on mute 😂😂😂

[@williambreeze2659]

Good video!

[@HectorCotto97]

Outside of fusion I highly doubt it, to be anywhere near Cell's level they would have to be as strong or stronger than Dabura who is stated to be as strong as Cell was during the Cell games (presumably Super Perfect Cell). I just don't think that they have what it takes to beat Cell even IF they were strong enough. I also don't think that Goten being comparable to his brother is as big of a deal as it was being presented seeing as Gohan had been slacking off on his training for years and according to Vegeta was weaker than his younger self who fought Cell. This means that even if Goten is as strong as Gohan in the early Buu Saga, that still means that he's weaker than the Gohan who fought Cell. Again if they fused then yeah they're gonna give Cell a hard time but if they don't or if Cell doesn't let them fuse then...yeah they're not winning that, I just think that there is no way.

[@punmasterG]

@emmanuelopoku-ware but in a filler episode goten and trunks were having a lot of troubles against 2 frieza level enemies

[@idonthaveacreativename6504]

@@punmasterG "But in a filler episode" Damn crazy how the first part of the statement debunks the rest of it.

[@punmasterG]

@@idonthaveacreativename6504 imma be honest i forgot filler wasn't cannon in dragon ball

[@idonthaveacreativename6504]

@wyattfaler3361 I mean certain specific fillers are cannon to only the anime and in rare occasions become Manga cannon like Gregory. But in most cases filler just doesn't matter.

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

Supersaiyan 2 Gohan non containing at all is nearly as Strong as Boo Saga Supersaiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta and Over 3 times Superperfect Cell power level

[@rodthedigger2902]

Great video!

[@isaaccuevas1717]

Post HTC training they defently can beat cell,We’ve seen the kind of boost you get from that,and cell is the type to get overconfident and craves a good fight

[@sigiligus]

The context of Goten being stronger than Gohan is obviously in reference to when Gohan was the same age as Goten. The absolute state of Dragon Ball fans.

[@christiancinnabars1402]

Yeah, the same Goten and Trunks that made Buu Saga Gohan worry about his strength being eclipsed, fought 18 and forced her to use a Destructo Disk, and landed a hit on post-7 year time skip SSJ Vegeta were only about as strong as start of Android Saga Gohan. Dragon Ball fans.

[@batguy39]

LMAOOOO love you both

[@Naruku2121]

Way I always viewed it as they were extremely talented for their age and maybe could cap out at late Cell Games levels of power (Below Ssj2 and Super Perfect Cell). But they lacked the harden battle experience compared to the others and would likely treat past villians like a game or maybe get outwitted (In particularly Goten.) Though personally I don't see an issue with the boys being stronger than Frieza or some variations of Cell. Most of their power came from Fathers who were way stronger than most other Saiyans could dream of. And Goten having some degree of power around or Gohan isn't unreasonable considering Gohan eclipses Goku when he was around that age in the Cell games. Though if some one wants to argue "Well Gohan was built up and well established by that point." Okay fair point, but then you have Gohan who trained for the Saiyans for a year who had only a year well no six months of pratical combat experince as Piccolo spent the other half letting Gohan just figure out how to survive and yet he could still dog walk all of OG Dragonball's past villians without rage boost shenangians at 5 years. Circling back to Goten it's not unfeasible for say Goten and Trunks to achieve comparable realative milestones either.

[@lanceknightmare]

I think both SS1 Goten and Trunks are more powerful than Popo. Though, Popo has enough durability, skill, and speed where he was not harmed by their attacks. He did seem to be struggling though. This is The Buu Saga I am referring to.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

There's a lot that I didn't agree with in this video, but I do appreciate any content that gives Goten & Trunks some shine. Ya know instead of the whole 'When are they gonna get taller?!" era that we had to go through during all of Super until the recent Superhero movie. Going to the Buu Saga (pre-Time Chamber & Fusion training), I personally don't think that Goten or Trunks were at the level of Semi-Perfect Cell meaning that they wouldn't beat Super Vegeta or Grade 3 Trunks from the Cell Arc. Heck, I'm not even confident that either of them could take on Android 16... Gohan was weaker than his Cell Games arc persona. This was stated by Vegeta multiple times between seeing Gohan at Capsule Corp. and witnessing his SS2 power at the World Tournament arena. There's a big debate about whether or not Super Perfect Cell would still lose to the Buu Saga SS2 Gohan, but something tells me that even IF SS2 Gohan (Buu Saga) had the power advantage over Super Perfect Cell; Gohan would lose because he doesn't have that fighting sense he had during the Cell Games. 7 years if a LONG TIME to not be training and his technique wouldn't be as fine-tuned as it was when he was a kid. Even Goku pointed out Gohan's sloppy fighting style going against Dabura. During the tournament training arc, I think it kind of mirrored the training for the Androids' first appearance. Goku was much stronger than Gohan & Piccolo resulting in those two getting a much higher power increase from the training than Goku did since they were going up against someone stronger than themselves. I believe Goten got a lot stronger from the training he did with Gohan than the other way around. If anything, Goten got to learn more about ki control (not a full mastery of it though) and Gohan got in better shape than he was before due to his near decade of studying. I don't think there was a huge power jump for either of them. As Trunks told Vegeta, he was 'a bit' stronger than Goten. Vegeta said that he'd do something about that, but their fight in the tournament finals didn't really show one kid that much higher than the other. When they powered up to the max for Goku at the Lookout to practice aligning their ki, Trunks was shown to be 'a bit' more powerful than Goten. Regardless of the guidebooks, there's no way Buu Saga Gohan (in any form pre-Ultimate) was gonna defeat the Full Power SS or SS2 Gohan from the Cell arc. Even if Goten & Trunks are comparable to Gohan (which I don't think they are), they aren't taking down Perfect Cell who was much more powerful than Full Power SS Gohan from the Cell Games. Post-Time Chamber training & DB Super is an area I don't really wanna go into because we never got a solid read on Fusion multiplier nor do we know how much stronger the boys got as individuals due to the Time Chamber training. Last thing, I believe Trunks was gauging the new power of base Gotenks after the training to Fat Buu rather than Super Buu.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

Good Video with pretty solid arguments for goten and trunks however there are issues. For one while daizenshuu does say gohans strength hasn’t changed since the cell saga that goes against many other guides and statements saying Gohan got weaker since then cell saga so I would interpret that daizenshuu statement as gohans LATENT strength not changed as it makes it consistent in addition to it having a basis as eml directly says his latent power has stayed the same

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

That Daizenshuu statement is for potential, not real Strenght

[@propaneandpropane3942]

One of the advantages of goten and trunks is that they were close friends that young and gave that them good potential in being the best fusion

[@TheWorldClass9]

I can live with this explanation

[@mAcChaosCh]

It's good to see more DBZ videos coming out for power scaling now. Gotta disagree with the analysis though. There's a number of leaps made.

[@Baymon]

Good video dude. Goten and Trunks really are underrated, I believe that they would beat Perfect Cell. I have a question, where did you find the guidebook that says that Teen Gohan MSSJ is stronger than Perfect Cell ? Thanks you very much

[@lonkstakes]

Its from El Manga Legendario

[@terrarune]

Even as Super Saiyans neither boy would be able to match any of the Z-fighters post Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Their window to shine as individual fighters would close the moment 18 was absorbed. Perfect Cell is only defeated through the swift and deadly application of fusion. Base Gotenks alone would be enough.

[@batguy39]

Extra based with a little L

[@e2b514]

Great video, very much agreed. Just for fun I thought of making a scaling chain for Cell, that being: Perfect Cell >~ Cell Games Goku ~ Shin > Piccolo > Goten/Trunks. Fairly easy to poke holes in, but kinda sorta plausible.

[@batguy39]

Base niggas...

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

Literally both manga Gohan stating Goten and Trunks are near him, Manga Narrator stating Goten and Trunks are only below in power on Earth Warriors to Goku, Vegeta and Gohan+ Shin stating Gohan is considerably stronger than him makes your scale wrong. Perfect Cell is way stronger than Goku but not nearly 2 times and Gohan from Cell Saga, Goku and Majin Vegeta in Supersaiyan 1 at full are stronger than perfect Cell. Scale is more like: Perfect Cell>Gohan~>Goten and Trunks>Supersaiyan Goku from Cell games~ Shin

[@Zeno1781]

​@@antoinepolnareff8970perfect cell is way stronger than Goku Goku was shocked at cell full power and cell was confident that even if Goku ate the senzu bean and got a minor zenkai boost, he would still win He was still confident even if they were to all jump him

[@saiyansnake]

Dat Dokkan art and music tho XD

[@Solesteam]

1:43 I'm sure they have the physical and Ki power to beat them... but they'd loose for roughly the same reason Goku got lazer gunned through he chest in DBS that one time after beating golden Frieza.

[@seawarrior954]

But... Goten just doesn't have the experience, he'd let his guard down and get sliced by a kienzan 💀 Great vid, well researched. I was not aware of EML having SSJ Gohan > Perfect Cell.

[@GuyDude-hk8uy]

To be fair - and I know you said "experience and skill is often overplayed" - but it depends whether you mean "stronger" as in they could defeat the other opponent, or whether they just have a higher power level. As an example, I think Gotenks could have defeated Buu if they had enough experience and a less childish temperament. He had a higher power level, but was too busy playing around and didn't seem to take into account that he would have to get Buu into a position where he was unable to DOOODGE, and then blast him with a move powerful enough that it would disintegrate him entirely. With all this in mind: although Perfect Cell is weaker than Buu and his regeneration isn't in the same league, I think that without fusing they'd still struggle to win even if they are stronger, because they'd probably make the situation worse by just zenkai-ing him into being stronger than they are eventually without someone to guide them.

[@snapeinvader6208]

0:04 I made a whole video based on what his ability was back in 2018. Man, that was a blast from the past. This video was great!

[@ceegk3071]

Dabura was said to be comparable to cell, and Dabura was giving gohan a hard time, so I really don’t see how they can win without fusing, if they fuse then they low diff

[@batguy39]

W

[@75JUNAKI]

When is part 3 of what if Coola?

[@thatguybehindtheglass]

No. And by "no" I mean "hell no". They are joke characters and nothing else.

[@euX222X]

The proof of Goten and Trunks power we see in the fight against 18, they fought WHILE BADLY NERFED, almost at same level against 18, and when they turned SSJ they got WAY MUCH stronger then 18 still WHILE NERFED, so yeah, the two kids even at SSJ1 grade 1 is MUCH, REALLY MUCH more stronger than Cell and Gohan SSJ2...

[@Ktotokroto]

How fighting 18 has to do anything with Perfect Cell level of power? She is weaker than the weakest form of of Cell. The difference between that level and perfect Cell is simply way to huge to gauge them so comfortably beyond Cell simply because of that. Its like saying that Goku one tapping Recoome puts him beyond Frieza.

[@fjod1689]

Daizenshu stated some time ago that Goten is not that far away from Gohan in base form, they dont give a specific number but considering this statement and what we read in manga would say that Goten might be 75% Gohan and Trunks around 80% Gohan at least in base form

[@Valientlink]

Beginning of the Buu saga, I think yes, but the fusion definitely would've been enough. I think the real thing that would prevent them is being so young, but by SSJ3 it's obvious he could've obliterated Cell.

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

Even base Gotenks pre Timechamber can take out as garbage Superperfect Cell with no effort

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

I feel like the statements could be referring towards their potential or even attitudes towards fighting Saying someone more of a warrior does have to mean strength

[@TheFinalChapters]

This take is... not good. We get a pretty good idea of how strong Goten and Trunks are in the tournament. They only become a threat to 18 (who we have no reason to believe has changed in power level from the Android Saga) after becoming Super Saiyans. That's nowhere near Perfect Cell level of power.

[@sonwalrez2842]

They might be able to win after training in the chamber(super perfect cell is another story). If they fuse, they get an easy w.

[@reptilian_geneticist]

Trunks was obviously inferring that they could now beat fat buu without going SSJ, not super buu... Fat buu is the one they previously fought and got beat up by, fat buu is the goalpost they were training to surpass... That's why Trunks says "I bet now we could beat Buu without even going SSJ" because they previously fought him in base form..... They didn't have any idea how strong super buu was...

[@ZenKrio]

On top of this. When the fused, Piccolo stated that Gotenks powered up a lot, and went from having no faith in gotenks to having some faith, implying that somehow, Base Gotenks after the RoSaT was stronger than SSj Gotenks was pre RoSaT. Piccolo himself said, before the RoSaT, that Super buu couldn't be beaten, even with Fusion... This is all in the manga, and implies Super Buu > Base Gotenks (post) > SSj Gotenks (pre) > Fat Buu.

[@reptilian_geneticist]

@@ZenKrio nothing actually implies that base Gotenks became stronger than SSJ Gotenks pre time chamber... BASE Gotenks fought Fat buu, he didn't even turn SSJ the first time they fused... lol... Base Gotenks could have gotten just 2 to 3 times stronger from training and it would still be considered a substantial power up... and that's consistent with the fact that they only trained for about a week in the chamber... but yeah post time chamber base Gotenks is definitely stronger than Majin Vegeta bare minimum since Trunks stated they could now beat Buu in base and Trunks knew they had to get stronger than his Dad in order to do that.... Therefore SSJ Gotenks is 50x Majin Vegeta and SS3 Gotenks is 400x Majin Vegeta BARE MINIMUM

[@christiancinnabars1402]

His wording was a bit weird, but his point is actually just that. He states SSJ Gotenks would have been relative to Fat Buu, therefore base Gotenks after training would be 50x stronger - being equal to pre-training SSJ Gotenks, who was relative to Fat Buu. Super Buu isn’t actually factored at all in that line of logic, despite being mentioned (which could have just been a slip of the tongue). Also, SSJ Gotenks before training _is_ at least relative to Fat Buu. Goku’s actions (leaving Fat Buu for the kids to beat) and Piccolo’s statements (telling them to fuse while SSJ before fighting Buu) heavily supports that. Gotenks not going SSJ is the only reason why he lost. And while the anime implies that he somehow _couldn’t_ go SSJ, it is never explained in the manga; base Gotenks losing to Buu was just a couple panel joke there.

[@reptilian_geneticist]

@@christiancinnabars1402 No, your logic here is just completely flawed and backwards, nothing implies that base Gotenks got 50x stronger... Gotenks wasnt able to go SSJ the first time they fused otherwise he would have transformed instead of getting his ass kicked by Fat buu... There never was a pre time chamber SSJ Gotenks, only base Gotenks. Apparently they needed to train before they could transform into SSJ.... So like i said, base Gotenks most likely only got about 2 to 3 times stronger while training in the time chamber (which only amounted to a week of training)

[@masterkc]

@@reptilian_geneticist you guys are using huge multiplier numbers. What ever happen to using 2.25x stronger or 3x stronger LOL wasn't that a crazy boost in the android saga? i remember the z fighters impressed of ssj gokus 50% power and everyone tried to surpass it. And ssj2 gohan wasn't 500x stronger than cell, the difference was only 2-3x, yet gohan was absolutely murdering cell. so by using the previous power scaling...fat buu= 100, super buu =150 ,ssj3 goku 120, ssj 3 gotenks 140. It sounds crazy (even if its true) that ssj3 gotenks was 400x stronger than majin vegeta like you said.

[@johnpaulosalto5685]

Just realized maybe goten was basically the what if of kid goku if ssj was a thing back then.

[@BronxEmperor]

Not even a day & this video is blowing up!!! Keep on the grind 💪🏾😤💪🏾

[@JJJJ-he8bz]

I think so. It wouldn’t make since for their fusion to be able to take on super buu

[@red_c1488]

Even a failed fusion of them are indesttuctible

[@ashlyncake]

Would Goten and Trunks beat Perfect Cell? Nah Cell wins easily. *Laughs in Fusion Dance.*

[@galacticgalaxyonezerone7235]

Now that I think of it buu kind of stalled because he was waiting for gohan to absorb gotenks and piccolo. They did almost get him though sort of but buu seemed in no real hurry maybe got irritated and had some fun for a bit there but he would smoke back to existence I think. Cell may as well because they goofed too much and left openings for some major damages.

[@Shourtz]

I just wish those two wouldn't have ditched training along with Goten keeping his Goku look

[@PWiz30]

Nobody's going to mention the fact that Goten and Trunks had their hands full with the Cell jrs during the tournament of power?

[@galacticgalaxyonezerone7235]

Cell max was done dirty. Just give us the better one really I mean how absurd they had to turn to this to make him beatable just do what they always do and scale cell as the next villain would be. He’s not the same cell though.

[@ShadowAtores]

So when it comes to the guidebook of Gohans strength only Stagnating, my only thing is that in the Manga Chapter 261 Vegeta says that Gohan was stronger when he was a Kid, refering to his Cell Games counterpart. We know Vegeta felt Gohan's power so he would know roughly how strong Gohan was and Vegeta isn't the type to lie about that. Just something I noticed when I was rereading the Buu Saga.

[@batguy39]

Vegeta solos

[@AllMight6]

Yes but gohan had a rage boost when he fought cell thus a Gohan without it would be weaker

[@randomuoutube2029]

Even tho the movies arent acnon, i always felt the power scaling was pretty accurate in the movies. In the movie with vegetas brother tarble showing up, i felt that movie powerscaled both trunk and goten to each be around frieza full powered level. Considering they had the kids fight two frieza level tbreats.

[@TheTupMan]

I’m not sure if using trunks saying how strong they are as a definite rock solid idea for how strong they are is a good idea. Considering he is very cocky about gotenks power even when ultimate gohan showed up, he thought gotenks was stronger. Goten immediately said gohan was stronger, and trunks backed off.

[@SuperMarioGamerBros]

Although this is by no means a proper scaling, I have been doing a personal project of power levels. I have Goten and Trunks start of Buu saga at about 3 trillion, Perfect Cell at about 4.5 trillion. Super Perfect is about 9 trillion. My logic is that Gohan in the Buu is repeatedly stated to be weaker than he was during the Cell saga, and I enterpreted the training between him and Gohan to be Gohan getting off guard so Goten being a good bit weaker than Gohan.

[@batguy39]

Assuming L English, Cell is actually spot on damn, not Supa tho And you right about the training

[@thirdworldrenegade]

Before I get to my point, we need to establish that Cell Games Gohan's power is the benchmark early on in the Buu Saga. Vegeta states that he can beat Gohan, but there's no telling what could happen if he gets angry. Goku tells Gohan no one could beat him if he's angry. When Goku goes from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta says he's stronger than Gohan. It took Goku going Super Saiyan 2 for him to say that. When Majin Vegeta is fighting Buu, Piccolo says that Vegeta could be stronger than Gohan. All these statements that are made in-universe harken back to Gohan's power during the Cell Games. Makes sense? Cool. Moving forward... Later in the saga, when Goku was preparing Goten and Trunks for Fusion, he told them to transform and to go all out. They thought they could give Goku a scare, but he asked "Is that all?" after they hit their maximum. It may not seem like much, but if Goten and Trunks were truly at Gohan's level (or Perfect Cell's level in this case), pretty sure something would've been said about how strong they were. All that's been said in-universe about them thus far is how impressive it is that they're Super Saiyans at such a young age. That's in Z. In GT, however, it's a completely different story. Goten and Trunks stomp Super Perfect Cell. Base Goten is able to fight Baby. Baby > Rilldo > Buu > Super Perfect Cell Hope I was able to help clear things up...

[@fjod1689]

What would be the point of Gohan asking Goten to help him train by sparring with him if he was actually a lot weaker than him?. At first in base form he just asked him to throw things to him but when he saw how powerful Goten actually was thats when he asked him to help him having some sparring

[@MrPerfectCelll]

Entertaining but you seem way off 1) buu saga Gohan< Cell saga gohan 2) Dabura exists(=to regular perfect cell) 3) buu saga gohan couldn’t beat dabura who is < super perfect cell

[@batguy39]

Fuckin W 🐐

[@HiImBeans]

Id say no. In the first Super movie Goku CLEARLY says they are about as strong as FP Frieza in the Z Namek arc

[@SRVaris]

"Goku CLEARLY says" He doesn't what your talking about is Beerus saying he doesn't believe Base Goku could defeat Frieza but Goku was suppressed at the time(he was hiding right beforehand)

[@HiImBeans]

@SRVaris wtf you talking about? When the twin henchmen, the red and blue guys, showed up, Goku said they were as strong as Frieza on Namek and would be a perfect fight for the boys.

[@SRVaris]

@@HiImBeans OHHH you mean Yo Son Goku in Friends not "the first Super movie" which was BOG Well in the Manga version of Yo Son Goku in Friends Goten & Trunks one shot them in BASE.

[@HiImBeans]

@SRVaris True, but I still don't feel the boys was touching Cell pre HBTC. After, it's an easy HIGH Diff. But both of them at SSJ Before wasn't even all that. SSJ Goten booted Chichi through a tree and she wasn't even hurt

[@Malthizar]

Lmao ok. When citing sources, you need to consider that all supplemental information is second to what's stated in the manga. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan comment that Gohan's power has decreased since fighting Cell. This is clearly seen with him fighting Dabura, who was compared to Perfect Cell in strength. Goten and Trunks were having a tough time beating 18 even after going SSJ. If they're even comparable to Super Vegeta, it should have been a 1Shot. Obviously Gotenks is a different beast, but it's legitimately a problem when you disregard what Toriyama wrote in favor of stuff Toriyama didn't write.

[@SRVaris]

" who was compared to Perfect Cell in strength. " No Dabura is compared to Cell in strength they never say which form of Cell meaning we must take it to mean the most recent version of Cell aka SPC and Dabura is actually stronger then that as Goku later says Dabura is stronger then he thought. "Goten and Trunks were having a tough time beating 18 even after going SSJ." Mind you Goten & Trunks were heavily restricted due to there outfit and suppressed as to not kill 18.

[@OldDrgnSlayr8542]

Perfect cell is a stretch because all he hast to do is keep taunting them, and then they won’t be able to fire in power phone off attack to completely kill him and then I’ll just keep regenerating and get stronger

[@ImortalPvP]

People don’t seem to understand that SSJ is a multiplier not a set power level, So no I don’t think base goten or trunks was anywhere near base goku/gohan/vegeta/future trunks in the cell saga

[@apbFAAR]

I can't imagine any world Goten and Trunks, at introduction, are comparable in any way to teen Gohan. When dealing with Dabura Cell is referenced numerous times to indicate how strong Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku are. While exactly how strong they are is always going to be debated, it rests around the idea that Gohan is about the same or slightly weaker than he was when he fought cell, while SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Goku are somewhat stronger than that. Implying that Goten and Trunks are similar in strength to Gohan would mean they are only slightly weaker than Vegeta (and what Vegeta assumed Gokus power was). More likely the best way to interperate Goten and Trunks as being "even stronger warriors than Gohan" would be to see it as Goten and Trunks a more powerful than Gohan was at the same age, and are much more likely to continue becoming more powerful since they actually enjoy fighting. This is easily backed up by the fact that they only received relatively minor training and didn't go through any life or death scenarios, but could already go SSJ and even fight somewhat around the level of a relaxed and surprised Android 18 (neither side could really give it their all in that fight for obvious reasons).

[@ArchangelRG09]

Goten and Trunks separately? Not a chance but fused, of course

[@FalloutJack]

I will grant that they are properly powerful, but I will also grant Cell something that those two don't have: Experience. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the reason these three pit against one another is because Super Perfect Cell was either brought back by the Dragonballs or removed from time until he was there to fight Goten and Trunks. His level would be the same, but he has new opponents. Now, we'll assume for the moment that none of them know anything about each other, except that Cell knows that is a young Trunks who is not a time traveller. You're probably right that those two, especially when fused, are more than a match for Cell *in terms of power.* However, we agree that people of greater skill can close the gap. Goten and Trunks are still kids, and they do not take life seriously. Gotenks was *showboating* in his fight against Majin Buu, confident that access to Super Saiyan 3 would defeat him. He/They tend to waste time, and so their problem as children is not that they're weak, but because they aren't of a mindset similar to Gohan fighting Cell. But hey, let's also assume that they might wise up when Piccolo tells them to stop fooling around, and they get serious. They had trouble clinching the win against Buu because of his regeneration, and there is a problem for if they push Cell too far. I made a post like this about Frieza, but what happens if Cell just destroys the planet in his self-destruct form? He can survive that, like Buu. I agree the kids are powerful, but they might make a fatal mistake, which is why they didn't beat Majin Buu.

[@HablaConOwens]

I could see trunks being able to beat cell if he was training in the gravity chamber for long and high enough.

[@xmace6206]

What about the time when SSJ goten and trunks are taking ln 7 cell jrs at the same time. Something that MSSJ goku was struggling to do with just 1

[@reptilian_geneticist]

No, they don't really stand a chance because they scale to android #18.... Even IF they were holding back, they're still relative to android 18.... Goten/Trunks would have to be at least 3 times stronger than #18 in order to be relative to Perfect Cell...

[@FizzyMcSoda]

Even more than that. Vegeta as a SSJ was relevant to 18 before the RoSaT sort of like how Goten & Trunks were in the tournament, as he could inflict damage to her, but she could just outlast him thanks to the infinity engine. That's around where I'd place Goten & Trunks if I highball them; around pre RoSaT Vegeta's level. Goku said to post RoSaT Vegeta he would have had to of tripled his strength to beat Semi-Perfect Cell, which would be 3x Android 18's power by that statement. (Using her power as a scale since both she and Semi-Perfect Cell fought Vegeta). Thanks to domination multipliers would mean Android 18's level of power would do nothing to him even at full power. If I were to lowball Perfect Cell, I'd say he'd be around 4 to 5x 18's power, and Super Perfect Cell would be 2x above that.

[@johangodojolo8652]

@@FizzyMcSoda 18 was clearly fucking with him the entire fight. He never did any significant bit of damage to her. Compare Piccolo vs 17 (a scenario where they actually were even but Piccollo had the stamina drawback) and its obvious Vegeta vs 18 isnt the same thing at all.

[@johangodojolo8652]

18 was scaling to base Goten and Trunks. 18 figured them out and they got disqualified imediately after they went ssj. So their ssj forms are not actually relative to 18. If anything its implied by that fight that they're far stronger since the moment 18 sees one of their attacks she decides that they're absurdly strong and she has to end the fight imediately.

[@FizzyMcSoda]

@@johangodojolo8652 Vegeta landed blows on her, and she did have marks on her to prove it. Her strategy though was to stay on defense, and antagonize him into wasting his stamina so that she could then easily overpower him when he got worn out, and make it seem like she eclipsed him. She's aware that she'll never tire, and that he will. If Vegeta can hit her in the gut, and make her kneel over, he can hurt her. Pre-RoS&T SSJ Vegeta and 18 are relevant to each other in power, but she is literally built different in the energy/endurance department. She was smarter than he was in that fight, and it shown. Those two things are why she had the edge.

[@FizzyMcSoda]

@@johangodojolo8652 Also relevant doesn't mean equal always. Super Perfect Cell is Relevant to SSJ2 Gohan for instance, but that just means that he can actually phase him in that state, it doesn't mean they're equal by any means, SSJ2 Gohan is still a good bit more powerful. I feel this could be the case here too with SSJ Vegeta and 18, they're relevant though because he actually could see what she was doing, he could react to a degree, and did land some hits. If he weren't, his punches and blasts wouldn't even phase her. That's all I'm saying.

[@christopher8295]

Only if they fuse, then yes it would be a slaughter.

[@linyenchin6773]

1:10 Oh yeah! The Cyborg called "Android 18" can't raise her power level as her Qi source is synthetic and not the result of internal alchemy like the other characters whise Qu signature is a reflection of that very personal struggle to grow stromger over time and thus reduce their aging to functional null so long as they keep getting stronger. She is locked at a power level which is one full Zenkai(or standard in-fight power up) above the power Goku gained when he first awakens as a Super Saiyan with his 150 million power level. 18's 200 million power level was able to easily overwhelm either Kid Trunks or Goten. They only overwhelmed her initially because they were attacking as one, although one was riding on top of the other's shoulders to do so in their secret identity as "Mighty Mask" a throwback/throwaway reference to qhen Yajirobe used a mask to disguise himself so he wouldn't be embarrassed when he inevitably lost in the World martial arts tournament at the 23rd Budokai. Her ease of picking them apart individually was a reflection of their base power levels only being 3 million and their Super Saiyan power only being at 150 million each. It's not because they were "nerfed," this makes my previous ipinion that they are 8 million in base power level, incorrect and also puts back some value in the fusion dance being able to multiply the power levels of the user, by 2.666... That's why their Super Saiyan 3 is still at 6.4 billion, even though either one of them alone gets a power of 2.4 billion if their 3 million is augmented by the 400 × base power level to render Super Saiyan 3 power.

[@MonkeBrain07]

So... I knew Goten and Trunks would murder Super Perfect Cell after their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, but to be told the exact numbers made me laugh out loud.

[@KnT_Noriiko]

Both Vegeta and Goku stated Gohan had gotten significantly weaker while in Babidi's ship. Your arguement kinda falls apart from that alone. Goten and trunks (pre time chamber) struggled heavily with the Abo-Cabo brothers who were stated to be stronger than full power Frieza. And in the world tournament 18 was not trying to harm her opponent, she was going out of her way to nit get dq'd much less not kill a normal human which she thought she was fighting until they went ssj. Once that happened she just no diff exposed them. 18 wasnt even sweating that fight while it was a 2v1, a nerfed 2 since they were hiding, but the point stands. Pre time chamber, Goten and Trunks get walled by 17 and 18 pretty significantly. Post chamber we can talk but super perfect cell is still hard walling them.

[@Trash_Cat21]

In power, Gotenks wins. Let's factor intelligence into this, Cell is a cunning mastermind who knows how Fuzion works. He would only have to outlast it and with Gotenk's track record of screwing around instead of getting the job done Cell could win by playing his cards right.

[@Trash_Cat21]

Separately Goten and Trunks are strong enough to beat Cell, however, they lack the wisdom and battle IQ that Cell has. Being cunning in a fight could be what makes the difference in the end no matter the power.

[@batguy39]

Based POV, though they lack power individually as well

[@lookie4448]

what are you smoking? Cell has no idea what fusion is nor how it works. Gotenks would wipe Cell out with ease many times over

[@Trash_Cat21]

@@lookie4448 my bad on the fusion, but while Gotenks is very strong my point was that Cell as a cunning mastermind would bait him into messing up as he did with Gohan.

[@lookie4448]

@@Trash_Cat21 When did Cell bait Gohan? Gohan himself just refused to finish off Cell because he wanted Cell to suffer. He didn't pull any strings. He baited Vegeta into letting him become perfect, but he didn't do anything to Gohan.

[@patrick22014]

The kids were on pair with 18 so they ain't touching Cell even if you wanna make a claim that they were stronger than 18 just remember how 16 was a lot more powerful than her and when Semi Perfect Cell appeared he trashed 16 then Super Vegeta mopped the floor with him but then Perfect Cell played with him then Goku easily overpowers Trunks and Vegeta and during the tournament Cell has a more serious fight with him, then Gohan fights him and Cell shows his true power and everyone realizes that he was always suppressed so the gap is MASSIVE. So many levels above, the kids ain't touching him unless they fuse.

[@michaeljosiahwarren3350]

I think that it’s referring to gohan when he was the same age

[@D.Strawhat]

If they fuse its a one shot, no debate. Cell would definitely let them fuse as well because he was extremely cocky.

[@TheBloodyNights]

Most talks of Goten or Trunks losing to Freiza are before the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training as after it they would whomp him with no difficulty. There is no real evidence to suggest that Trunks or Goten are as strong as Gohan, if anything there is evidence against it. Surpressed 18 fighting against both of them was more surprised than anything, and when they turned super saiyan she was still able to keep up with them easily before ending the fight. Which she ended because the boys lack of ki control could have injured the audience and her daughter was down there. Vegeta's little scene in the chamber with him drenched in sweat in the gravity chamber from his training had Trunks attack him just to test him. Trunks eventually did nick him and Vegeta reflexively punched him hard enough to knock him flat on his ass and brought him to tears. Though admittedly it's impressive that he managed to touch Vegeta at all. The biggest reason why most people don't think them individually could beat Frieza is because of their base forms, lack of control, and lack of strong attacks. Goten sparred with Chi Chi as his trainer and she pushed him to go Super Saiyan for example. He can't fly, he can barely do a Kamehameha with any sort of control. Now Post Time chamber Goten and Trunks can beat Frieza. Yo Son Goku and his Friends Returns shows them facing a Frieza level enemy in their base form with difficulty though these enemies were less skilled than Frieza. But even post time chamber Goten and Trunks are not beating Perfect Cell, let alone Super Perfect Cell. At least not without the power of Gotenks.

[@ZenKrio]

Trunks states that he actually had to hold back so as to not kill 18, and they were in an outfit that held most of their skill back. They're easily stronger than the Pre RoSaT saiyans. Goten actually gives Gohan trouble, and Trunks clips Vegeta (which FYI, Semi Perfect Cell would only do after Vegeta allowed him to do so lol).

[@TheBloodyNights]

@Billy Two Cents I don't remember Trunks saying that, and even if he did it was false as 18 immediately kept up with them when they went Super Saiyan. Also the boys may have been held back to some degree. But they also were fighting extremely weird as there two halfs were attacking independently which threw a holding back 18 off slightly. They also didn't land a blow attacking independently after serperating. Before the reffs ended the fight

[@ZenKrio]

@TheBloodyNights it was after they went SSj, trunks goes to fire an energy blast and Goten warns Trunks to hold back, and he says its fine, he'd adjust for her, but because she's 18, its also be fine. Trunks fires the blast and 18 shows genuine fear. We know from Trunks fighting Goten that he has full control of his attacks, so that wasn't an issue, so it can only show and imply that she feared for her safety.. Also, there is no "But he lied" in manga quotes, facts are facts unless otherwise contradicted, so since she didn't claim his attack was weak, we have no choice but to assume he was stronger than her. We also have her reaction to Vegetas attack in the saga previous where he fought her, and she tanked one of his best moves which was fast enough to catch her off guard and she was fine, where with Trunks she was scared You need to learn or remember the manga before you make foolish remarks like you just did..

[@TheBloodyNights]

@@ZenKrio I went back and read the manga after reading this post. It was like a 4 panel section. Only Goten was telling Trunks to hold back but Trunks states she's 18 and she's strong so she'll be fine, indicating that he wasn't going to hold back. The fear and safety of the audience was an anime thing. As it expanded that 4 panel manga. Neither the manga nor the anime show that 18 is weaker than Trunks/Goten. She states that the blast from Trunks was strong and fast after she dodged it, and she couldn't believe those twerps were as strong as they were. And that blast in the manga panel was massive. If she blocked that blast instead of dodging the entire audience would have been killed due to how massive the explosion radius was from that attack. Her realizing how strong an attack is and showing concern for it doesn't = she is weaker than the boys. It's foolish to assume this is the case. I'd be surprised too if a couple of toddlers who barely knew how to control their strength started firing nukes. The Anime while lengthening it does go into more detail on the fight which I like, discredit it as uncanon filler if you like. Either way neither proves that 18 is weaker than Trunks or Goten. Vegeta is way weaker than Perfect Cell, but if he sits up there and charges a Final Flash he might be able to damage him.

[@ZenKrio]

@TheBloodyNights it's still enough that they're stronger than Vegeta was when he fought her. And though they were a quirky fighter, each was held back in that outfit, the lower half could barely see and was basically just flailing his feet. And you still have the comments made in both fights. 18 clearly has a level of respect for the kids raw power, but with Vegeta, she was mocking him and was barely serious with him. Either or, the kids are strong, 16 level may be a little much imo, but I see them as stronger than the Pre RoSaT SSjs easily. And as said before, trunks was able to hit Vegeta, whereas Semi Perfect Cell was only able to after vegeta let him.

[@AntTheDogGuy]

This doesn't make sense, the whole argument of the them being comparable to Gohan isn't possible, when Gohan achieved SSJ 2 he was the most powerful of all of them, and Vegeta had even been training to surpass Gohan later on when the Buu saga rolled around. Despite the fact that Gohan had weakened by not keeping up with his training neither Trunks nor Goten come close to that level of power, and we know this as trunks is nowhere near Vegeta's level of power while he's training him. Even with their extra training in the hyperbolic time chamber their power increase wouldn't have matched a SSJ2 Gohan that defeated Perfect cell, and they never achieved SSJ2 themselves either. Also another thing to consider was in an episode of Dragon Ball Super when two aliens come to earth and Trunks and Goten win the competition to fight them they are said to be Frieza level power and they struggle to defeat them, and eventually Goku ends up taking them out.

[@DarthNoshitam]

Getting tanked by Popo doesn't help their case

[@kintsuki99]

You see it saying they are equal or stronger than Gohan is about their potential as fighter. Gohan is "stronger" than Goku and Vegitta but lack of training makes his actual strenght lower but he has greater potential. Same goes for Gothen and Trunks, the only reason they are "stronger" than Gohanb is because they actually train and like fighting, something Gohan lacks. Now on actual power level they are weaker than every adult but stronger than Gohan was at their age, which would be Sayan saga. They are not SSJ2 nor stronger than 17 or 18 at Cell saga. Even in the tournmernt 18 never doubts her victory only that she may have to take the fight more seriously when they go super sayan.

[@Shadowdragon_TV]

They would need to fuse to beat Cell. SS2 Gohan was slightly stronger than Super Perfect Cell, and Vegeta noted that Gohan in the future was weaker than when he fought Cell, Trunks and Goten were weaker than Future Gohan. So they would require a fusion to even stand a chance. Otherwise, 2 on 1, Cell would destroy them. What makes Cell more than the standard fighter is not only his hacks and multiple abilities, but he's also a genius warrior who loves battle. He wouldn't just beat them in power but intellect as well. Goten and Trunks are strong, but they are still children.

[@ikeillue8385]

There are multiple different ways to interpret these things (Like, I think they are talking more about potential, than actual power, when they talk about Goten and Trunks being as strong or stronger than Gohan. But that is, again, an interpretation), but one thing I do think is incorrect, is the assumption that base Gotenks ever matched up to Super Buu. Tunks may think that they are at that point, but he is also an arrogant child. The fact is, we literally see that he doesn't stand a chance, with Buu toying with him. That said, even if we made that 50x increase assumption, there is still a faulty point here. The fusion "multiplier" is faulty. Don't get me wrong, its taken from a guidebook, but there is actually another multiplier from another guidebook as well (I don't recall off hand what that multiplier was stated to be), but we have a more official multiplier given in Super, which is different from both. The sum of their power, multiplied by 10s of times. Basically, if we go by that 50x stronger number, Goten and Trunks would have only increased their power by 1.025x each, in order to increase Gotenk's base power by 50x (using the minimum of what "10s of times" would mean). Essentially, my thought is that Goten and Trunks, being children and all, spent more time developing new techniques (like the volley ball fist, and the Kamikaze ghost attack), than they did actually training. This did end up making them slightly stronger, but only a very little bit. However, because of the nature of fusion, that very little bit of growth was still a significant increase for Gotenks, and being children, it didn't even occur to them the gains Gotenks would get, if they themselves increased their individual power significantly.

[@dillkosher5116]

The moment you said they were stronger than ssj2 buu saga gohan I shut the video off… your naively out of your mind if you think they scale that high. Gohan might be nurfed but he definitely scales to perfect cell as mentioned in the fight vs Debora so while being rusty he’s not AS WEAK as fans think he got there’s no way in hell goten or trunks scales at ssj1 to gohan most likely just his cell saga mastered ssj1 state

[@lonkstakes]

Did you miss the part where I said this was the face value interpretation of the statements and not the reasonable way?

[@roox163]

Individually, and they get clapped, if they both work together tho they might be able to close the gap in power the problem with beating someone like cell is that if you’re slightly weaker or slightly stronger than him, he has the advantage due to the fact that he can easily regenerate and get zenkai boosts, i don’t think goten and trunks have the power output to completely vaporize cell like SSJ 2 Gohan did, plus cell has abilities like instant transmission that can really help him out in this fight, he’s also incredibly skilled as he was able to match goku in skill, someone who is considered one of the most skilled fighters on the z warriors team, he also has the cell juniors which were able to completely dominate people like vegeta, trunks, piccolo, and a weakened goku, now if they fuse into gotenks, then they completely destroy cell, but cell just has too many variables going for him that gets him the win, i think the same can be said on a hypothetical matchup between cell and dabura

[@ramiobeid2889]

There's mistakes in this video. The guides can't always be taken as evidence. Case in point, you show the statement that Gohan's strength didn't decrease, but then everyone says that Gohan got weaker. Even Vegeta compares Goku to Gohan against Cell and not Buu saga Gohan. When Goten and Gohan spar a bit, Goten tells Gohan that he couldn't even land a single blow. Goten was actively trying to hit Gohan, but he couldn't. Gohan then says that if he doesn't train seriously, Goten and Trunks will surpass him. Finally, theres a panel in the DBS manga showing Goten and Trunks fighting Cell Jr, and they weren't one shotting them like Gohan did. In the special Son Goku and his friends return, Freeza level opponents were mentioned to be good opponents for the kids. This all to show that even DBS Goten and Trunks can't beat SPC.

[@kachiedits6231]

The simple answer is that individually they would struggle a lot againt cell for many reasons However their fused variant would easily beat cell

[@mizunawa5207]

The Tarble Special is canon, and in the special it was stated by Goku that goten and trunks in ssj were roughly on par with frieza in frieza saga. They are no where near perfect cell level. Now in current manga of DBS, they are able to square off against a cell jr. but cell jr.’s aren’t as strong as perfect cell. I think if they worked together they might put up a good fight, but would eventually screw up and lose. Now if they fuse absolutely is gotenks going to win.

[@metal87power]

Achieving SSJ transformation doesn't mean they are as strong as adult SSJ.

[@gamerwolfunleashed3751]

Well it depends to be honest with you in the anime I don't know for sure if goten and trunks could turn super saiyan 2 since 1 and 2 are kinda similar to each other, I do know they can become super saiyans but but not the 2nd form of it, it be another story second these two are known to not take fights seriously if they can fight seriously and turn super saiyan 2 then yes they would win hands down

[@Mr.Wiggles445]

Goten and trunks are both so unserious espiecally when fused its hard 2 imagine them beating anyone lmao

[@BlinzerOmega]

no way, dude. gohan and cell are weaker than buu, but not THAT much weaker than buu. we know it has to be close to 4 times because goku and vegeta both consider themselves stronger than peak gohan at the dabura fight, but not by like an INSANE amount. we also know ssj3 is a 4x multiplier and that gives him a pretty decisive advantage over fat buu, but not to the point where he considers the fight a joke. if the fusion multiplies people's power levels, then goten and trunks are both little squirts by comparison, and they only reach a significant power level once they stack multipliers upon multipliers upon multipliers. the only "reasonable" interpretation is that they're stronger than gohan for their age.

[@Ktotokroto]

Post RoSaT? I genuinely have no idea. Before that? Absolutely not. With some highballing you can imply they could beat Perfect Cell(Together) but SPC is way out of their reach. Simply because Vegeta and Goku surpass that level only as SSJ2 in the same saga. And they scale above Gohan, who Trunks and Goten scale close to if you're Very-Very generous. Like VERY generous.

[@Pentaclown84]

goten's fightingstyle should be a combination of trunks and chi chi

[@linyenchin6773]

Only as Super Saiyan 3. My reasoning: Goku being the origanl and only Super Saiyan in the story boards(before akira toriyama was abused into maling the Android then Cell then Buu saga) with his initial power level of 3 000 000 when the power of Super Saiyan was first unlocked on Namek, is benchmark of the basic required power level to turn into a Super Saiyan. The Qi/ki supply for that transmutation from mortal ki to divine gold status is one of the two requirements, emotional equilibrium is the second. Kid Trunks and Goten were born with the potential unlocked(because their fathers 7nlocked it prior to impregnating their mothers) but still had to use training and combat to raise their power levels to 3 000 000 in order to trigger the Super Saiyan form. By time Buu Saga, it seems Goten and Trunks are about 1/4rth the power level of Goku and Majin Vegeta. This places them at 8 million as their power levels, that's 400 million as Super Saiyan 1 and 800 million as Super Saiyan 2 and 3.2 billion as Super Saiyan 3(if they could maintain the form without relying on fusion, otherwise their fusion Ssj 3 state is equal to Super Buu who has twice the power level of Fat Buu). Had either of them the ability to go Super Saiyan 3 without having the genetic reinforcement of fusing tqo half Saiyans into a functionally full Saiyan, the 400 × base power level effect of Supwt Saiyan 3 would make either of them equal to Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta where he and Goku were tied and equal to Fat Buu(who was only able to Majin Vegeta due to regeneration power + seemingly endless Qi supply). Perfect Cell was only 10 times the power level of 100% power Frieza on Namek so 1.2 billion and his Zenkai boosted state or "Super Perfect Cell" was equal to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at 12 years old. "Super Perfect Cell" could wipe the floor with either Goten or Kid Trunks in Super Saiyan 2 but not in their fusion variant of Super Saiyan 2 or if either couod sustain Super Saiyan 3 on their own.

[@ImTheStrongest]

In Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, Abo and Kado is said to be as strong as Frieza. Goten and Trunks was whooping those two's ass in their Base. Now Tarble didn't state which form Frieza that Abo and Kado was stronger than and Tarble only saw Frieza's first form. But it's safe to say it's 100% Frieza given how the story was most likely referring to 100% Frieza or Metal Frieza when they were writing the story. Given that information, Trunks and Goten would be stronger than Perfect Cell, even Super Perfect Cell, as a Super Saiyan. Unless Perect Cell's power level was higher than 6 billion, then they are not winning. This got me thinking. When 18 fought Trunks and Goten in the tournament, she had issue with them because she couldn't figure them out because she didn't know she was fighting 2 people instead of one. If she was to fight Trunks or Goten alone, would she still have issue fighting one on one with them?

[@linyenchin6773]

4:10 "But ofcourse Super Perfect Cell exists and he's at least two times stonger than that..." - No. Cell only gained one standard or full powered Zenkai, this is only a 1/3rd boost to his previous power level of 10 times Frieza's 120 million. "Super Perfect Cell" was only 1.6 billion, same as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who barely defeated him due to all the circumstances surrounding their conflict. The only thing that is "two times stonger" is his speed as per Vegeta's leap from a power level of 18 000 to 24 000 making him twice the speed of his 18 000 self and Qiwi who was also at 18 000 when he faced Vegeta on Namek to be totally outclassed by him. Use the established standard deviations to rate power level progressions and you get better numbers than the daizenshuu shit that is lazy fan fiction given the "green light" from akira to make to mess as the "oficial power levels." Standard deviation is 1.3 to 1.3333333333 times previous power level = 2 times faster but not 4 times stro ger as the inverse square law wpipd rationally demand of a being that is moving 4 times facter than he was prior to powering up. Each major villain is 10 times the power level of the preceding, except for Frieza's 120 000 000 in relation to Ginyu's 120 000 which was little less than ten times Saiyaj Saga Vegeta's 18 000 but if you use the median of Vegeta and Nappa, which is 11 000 then it's much closer to the 10 × previous major villain and that is roughly 10 times the 1 200 of Raditz who was killed vy two attacks rated at 1305(headbut from Gohan enraged and yelling 'leave my daddy alone!!'...) and 1337(Special beam cannon) so it can't be fan favourite lie of 1500 nor is it 1600 as those nymbers don't make sense in terms of Gohan veing able to hit and weaken him, that 1305 had to be avove the power of Raditz in order to connect as it did. Frieza was only 1000 times the power level of the previous big bad(Captain Ginyu) because he was the vig bad to end all big bads. Everything after Frieza returned to the standard deviation of 1.3333333333 for basic in fight power ups and the difference between characters who aren't the main big bad. The main big bad being Perfect Cell is ten times the power level of Frieza just like Kid Buu is about ten times the power level of Perfect Cell.

[@NyBeans92]

Baki vid when?

[@ragnarok7452]

SPC should be more than 10x PC considering he is stronger than Buff Cell. Based on Grade 3 being 10xGrade 2 and Cell's Form being based on that. So SPC still takes it.

[@batguy39]

Fuckin W 🗿🚬

[@ssjbread2803]

Alright, but why have they not achieved Super Saiyan 2? Your scaling implies they CLEARLY should be strong enough, and the fact that they have super saiyan 3 as Gotenks means they know how to go beyond super saiyan, so how come theyve never used it?

[@maritimesteak8540]

I think giving them a 7times increase is kind of being too lenient I believe them training should have bare minimum been a 2 times multiplier since that's whats implied to completely stomp someone so how much stronger they got not fair to say but considering 7 times stronger seems a little too close to Goku and Vegeta in the Buu saga I personally don't think they got that much stronger in the time chamber. They should still be able to take on super perfect cell and ss2 Gohan no doubt they would be the peak of the cell games level imo and maybe even surpassing it

[@UnlimitedRadioButNoSoap]

what's wrong with them being close to goku and vegeta?

[@batguy39]

Todo mal

[@titantrainer592]

In Yo! Son Goku and his friends return! Goten and Trunks were stated to be Freeza level