Could They Just Thomas Riker Tuvix? (Star Trek: Voyager)

The problem with the episode Tuvix is that it just makes us think too much. So what if they just pulled a Thomas Riker and made two of him? This is an argument I see a lot, for some reason.
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[@AllisonPregler]

Heya folks, thanks for watching! ❤ I'm gonna place an embargo on comments saying that it's ethical to kill Tuvix if he's unconscious! That's, uh, really messed up! 😊

[@lucidhominid2190]

They should have just waited until they got back to the alpha quadrant so they could ask Groppler Zorn for help.

[@aquabreeze7612]

I swear to god, someday I'm going to dress as Groppler Zorn for a convention just to see if someone else gets these jokes.

[@genmaicha.lapsang]

@@aquabreeze7612 That would be amazing!

[@STASlayer]

Groppler Zorn is the answer to all things.

[@PatheticApathetic]

That’s a good point. Groppler Zorn would have sorted that shit out, immediately, and, more importantly, ethically

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

With one wave of his mighty Zornwand he’d proclaim “Hippity-hoppled, you just got GROPPLED” and not only would there be separate Tuvok, Tuvix, and Neelix, who would then form a three man ska band, but every dead redshirt would also immediately come back to life.

[@johnmorey720]

Anyway, here's a solution: What if they split Tuvix up into Tuvok and Neelix, but then just kill Neelix? Seems like the best solution to me.

[@mb7626]

As brutal as this may seem, I have always maintained that this is the best/most life-honoring solution to the problem tbqh.

[@KingOfMadCows]

What if they duplicated Tuvix, unfused both, and then they'd have two Tuvoks and they get to kill Neelix twice.

[@Tareltonlives]

Perfect

[@Tareltonlives]

@@KingOfMadCows Win win!

[@AlastairjCarruthers]

@@KingOfMadCows Surely you could just keep doing this indefinitely? By the time they get back to the Alpha Quadrant, Neelixkill could be the new Parrises Squares. Just imagine it, millions of Neelixes getting slaughtered every day, all across the quadrant. Glorious.

[@somewhatboxes]

Janeway actually considered this! At one point late in the episode you might've noticed that she looked off into the distance and smiled briefly for no obvious reason; that was her realizing she could murder Tuvix twice.

[@matthewryan6187]

That sounds like SFDebris' Janeway

[@Eyetrauma]

Computer: load Tuvix Femur Breaker 9-Zeta-Seven, set wailing and anguish to maximum, lock the doors and computer… brew a pot of coffee, I’m gonna be a while.

[@planescaped]

@@Eyetrauma I can just picture he sitting in a comfy chair drinking coffee and watching brutal torture like it's a soap opera.

[@Rensune]

Who knows Maybe she did

[@tarvoc746]

Here's an interesting question: If Tuvix has the memories of Tuvok and Neelix, do they have his memories too? Do both men now have a shared memory of running around Voyager's bridge begging the crew for mercy while the crew mercilessly executes the death sentence issued by Janeway, or at best stand idly by? Do they share a memory of utter terror, fear for their life, and let's not forget a sense of betrayal and abandonment? How's that going to affect their morale, work ethics and relationships with the rest of the crew in the future? Not at all? No trauma, no alienation, nothing? They're back to status quo ante even within the same episode? Great. Thanks Voyager.

[@captainjefferies9047]

I had a friend who got a concussion and cussed all the doctors for treating him. He remembered acting like a fool when he had brain damage and he didn't hold it against the doctors for saving his life.

[@killnotic]

Well, shit. That adds a little extra bit of fucked up to that whole mess, doesn't it?

[@toddnolastname4485]

Why would Nelix and Tuvok feel betrayed. The crew wanted those two back. It was the transporter accident thing that was "betrayed".

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

@@toddnolastname4485 spotted the Lon Suder…

[@mrcritical6751]

I feel like Tuvok wouldn’t be effected he would simply think it was a moral quandary that they found the best and most logical solution for Neelix on the other hand clearly has a lot of internal pain that he prefers to keep hidden so he probably would’ve felt quite disturbed and most likely would keep it hidden away

[@rna151]

The problem here is not enough cake-eating. Tuvix seemed to have all of Tuvok and Nelix's skills, heck he seemed to be better than either component individual at each of their respective specialties. So why not just keep merging crew members and then we can merge the merges until there's only one left - an omni-capable savant that we can then Riker as many copies of as we need? For science. Galactic conquest?... maybe they could write Voyager scripts?

[@Iamafishproductions]

They try that exact thing, and Tom Paris just walks out of the transporter, completely unchanged.

[@tonoornottono]

@@Iamafishproductions that’s so fucking funny oh my god

[@captainjefferies9047]

Tuvix has all of Tuvok's knowledge of the ship and all of Neelix's selfishness. He's a security risk that should have been in the brig.

[@20TonChop]

This is the way.

[@Thoughmuchistaken]

Voyager Season 2 Episode 25 'The Year of Tuvixes' they just sit in orbit for a year beaming every combo into and out of existence.

[@Jogwheel]

If you just posted content exclusively about killing Tuvix, I honestly wouldn't complain.

[@kane7475]

Yo its jogwheel dude I love your guys channel I hope you guys return again I miss your microwave videos they were awesome

[@RobertJazo]

I am now imagining a version of this episode where they keep duplicating Tuvix, desperately trying to find one who is willing to "die" to become Tuvok and Neelix again.

[@pentelegomenon1175]

Easy, duplicate like 5 of them and once, and tell them that whichever one is most willing to die in order to reconstitute Tuvok and Neelix doesn't die by phaser blast.

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

Wouldn't even need to physically rebuild the one you are going to split back into Tuvok and Neelix. Just leave that one in the transporter buffer. Assuming you aren't aware of your existence inside the transporter (which is shown not to be true by Barclay, but stated as being true even after that, so apparently not everyone got the memo and thus the people on Voyager wouldn't necessarily know), the Tuvix who dies would never physically exist and never be conscious, which starts to bring up questions of whether they ever were alive and therefore can they be killed.

[@thomaslalonde1532]

@@rajamicitrenti1374 I love this answer.

[@4203105]

You could just keep him sedated during the process. The one that gets split would never know. I'm sure Tuvix would agree to it before the duplication and sedation.

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

@@4203105 Wouldn't work. When both Tuvixes come out of the transporter, they are both going to believe and assert that they are the original, and that's basically true. They would both claim the other is the copy that should be split.

[@MyMagnificentOctopus]

They forget everything they can "accidentally" do with the transporter, such as cloning and reverting to childhood. They also can remove all germs (except when they can't) and restore genetic damage, so it seems they could cure genetic disorders, cancer and most diseases. Seems like you could live forever thanks to transporter accidents, if only they remembered everything they can do.

[@Faction.Paradox]

Like transporters dematerialising you so you shouldn't be conscious of it happening, until that episode where Barclay was conscious and saw that creature during transport.

[@germanvisitor2]

I guess, at some point it is not important anymore, what they canonically can or cannot do, if all the episodes of every season and every series fit together or how ridiculous the techno-babble is once you have at least a spoonful of knowledge about certain things. The important thing for Star Trek is to carry a message and to adress a problem, a dilemma. Star Trek needs to be solarpunk.

[@danielgehring7437]

Obscure singalong time? I think it's obscure singalong time. "Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish, that's the way we do things like we make shit up as we wish. The Klingons and the Romulans pose no threat to us! 'Cuz if we find we're in a bind, we just make some shit up." -Voltaire... er, the singer, not the philosopher and pundit

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

"Multi-modal reflection sorting" is still my favorite technobabble. It sounds good, unless you know anything about computer sorting, at which point all the words make sense, but not together.

[@Faction.Paradox]

@@rajamicitrenti1374 I have some crates of self-sealing stem bolts for sale which would make it all make sense....

[@MattMcIrvin]

I originally misread the title as asking whether they could have Tuvixed the two Rikers. Which would have been at least as immoral and impractical.

[@alionfish5]

Tuvixed sound like a weird sexual euphemism without the context

[@MattMcIrvin]

@@alionfish5 It kind of is if you think about it.

[@kirkkerman]

Would that be combining the two Rikers into one or splitting them again into four Rikers

[@gm2407]

​@@alionfish5Originally I forgot the character's name and misremembered it as Twolicks (not that spelling).

[@kramermariav]

​@@kirkkermanthat combined Riker intensity would be just too much

[@cameronstone4495]

2:06 And also canonically, he shaves his side burns, has fake ones made for some reason (i.e. the camera), joins the Maquis, steals the Defiant, gets captured and is sentenced to life imprisonment in a Cardassian labor camp....STILL waiting on that rescue Kira.

[@NoJusticeNoPeace]

Beta canon has him dying in the camp.

[@miriamrosemary9110]

I was so happy when they brought him back for DS9, but was disappointed we didn't have even more of him... I always found him to be an interesting character. Wonder if he ever made it out - I hoped he'd end up having a good life after all that time in solitude.

[@cameronstone4495]

@@NoJusticeNoPeace That sounds about right 😑

[@charlestownsend9280]

Yeah they didn't do his character (or the marquis) well after his introduction, just save him from one terrible prison and put him straight into another terrible prison. I liked the fake out but that's really the only think I liked in the episode. It could have been cool to see him he a recurring character, turning up in marquis stories as one of their main leaders and fully play around with the what if aspect of the character (but like with everything else marquis they just wasted all the potential stories and made them cartoonishly evil and all their leaders glory seekers).

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

"Mild acknowledgement" - best phrase ever! 😂 Also, so glad you mentioned that the TNG crew needed an ENTIRE PLANET to help create Thomas Riker - it was definitely an infinitesimally rare event!!!

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

Except that there's really no reason why that would be *required*. At it's core, the transporter is just a scanner/disintegration ray and a human-sized replicator all in one device. We even know that the two sized don't have to function in unison, since Scotty was able to be stored in the replicator memory for decades. It's just computer memory at that point, and therefore could be easily Ctrl+V.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@rajamicitrenti1374 Except we never see the transporter used like that, except in rare instances such as with Thomas Riker. This indicates that the transporter operates differently, perhaps moving the person through the system while keeping them intact, which is in fact what Barclay sees in "Realm Of Fear" and the ongoing conversation between Kirk and Saavik in ST2. As for the necessity of the unusual planet, it is specifically called out in both the episode "Second Chances" AND mentioned again in this very KZbin video!

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

@@MatthewCaunsfield IIRC, in the Scotty TNG episode, I believe the conversation between him and Geordi spells out that for some reason transporters don't retain a person's pattern in memory perfectly for long (which from a computing perspective makes no sense) so they are programmed to dump the pattern after a few seconds to avoid corruption, which is why Scotty had to bounce himself between transporter buffers in order to maintain himself. If a person can be in memory for decades, there's no reason the dematerialzation and rematerializtion *have* to be linked. Likely the Transporters are *designed* to work one way, and within those design parameters, something like the planet is required for a Thomas Riker accident. But the transporters are machines, which can be reprogrammed. Hell, they basically had to violate damn near every established rule of transporters in order to split Tuvix at all!

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@rajamicitrenti1374 Exactly - if it were just a matter computer data being stored, then poor old Franklin (from the Scotty episode) would still be alive! But for wacky plot antics (Tuvix being a good example) to occur at all, then there's something more going on. However, I will be the first to admit that Star Trek has been less than consistent on how it portrays the function of the Transporter from episode to episode. 😉

[@benroberts2222]

just use the holodeck (with the safety protocols off) to reproduce the planet's anomaly that affected the transporter. Yes, there will be some technobabble reason why this won't work, but I'm just stringing together all the overpowered mcguffins from the show, which can be used in theory to solve any problem until the writers make up a reason why they won't in this particular case.

[@npcknuckles5887]

The fact that Trek keeps people pondering these kinds of moral dilemmas, speaks to Trek's brilliant writing, even if done clunkily sometimes.

[@travissmith2848]

Helps when you don't have the new Trek idea of bludgeoning people with your idea of what the right answer is and telling off everyone who doesn't already think like you that they have no business watching in the first place.

[@captainjefferies9047]

@@travissmith2848 Cry me a river caveman.

[@lunatickoala]

@@travissmith2848 Bludgeoning people with your idea of what the right answer is has been a Star Trek staple since the 60s. Subtlety was not a strength of TOS. And the writers of "The High Ground" hated that episode precisely because they couldn't bludgeon the audience with what they thought was the right answer. Also, the fact that something causes debate isn't in and of itself a sign of good writing and not all debates happen because it's an important discussion to have. Consider that both Evolution and Climate Change are both heavily debated in the American political sphere. That there's a debate at all is the result of an intentional disinformation campaign designed to spread uncertainty and doubt to protect the political and economic interests of a select few. Why is there a debate over whether an organization that regularly wages war for the government it serves a military? Why are there people who defend genocide using the Prime Directive as a cover? "Tuvix" wasn't brilliantly written. The Trolley Problem is Ethics 101 and the episode isn't a particularly strong or nuanced presentation of it. Competent, yes, but not brilliant.

[@travissmith2848]

@@lunatickoala So was it black on right side whit on left that was correct or was it white on right side black on left that was correct? I sure don't recall the crew chanting death to the oppressor. A morality play will always have a point of view, but when done well it persuades and invites one to think, when done poorly it berates and demeans everyone that does not already agree. As for climate change.... it is a sad fact in my country that "The climate is changing and humans have had a non-zero role in that so we must do what we can regardless if it is 25% or 90%." (last figure I heard and from a fairly humans bad perspective was "more than 50%", maybe it was almost 50%) is not seen as a valid stance, both sides want to push you into the 100% or 0% camp. Pointing out that the main renewables have drastic flaws that make them not as green as they are held up to be and have practical limitations gets you labeled as "fossils forever" while stressing that coal plants only redeeming quality is the raw output and we should replace them where practical gets you labeled the other direction...... (Nuke managed well and using deep bore storage for long lived waste is the best compromise we have in my view)

[@lunatickoala]

@@travissmith2848 The Star Trek stance on religion has usually been "all gods are fake and if you believe in one you're an irrational Dark Age ignoramus". And TNG at least did berate those with belief in the supernatural as fearful and irrational and ignorant. Which is ironic considering how much of the supernatural there is in Star Trek. And yes, they are supernatural; there are multiple beings that can change the laws of nature, often with nothing more than a mere thought, meaning they are not bound by the laws of nature and are by definition supernatural. Star Trek treats the Ferengi with disdain and contempt and given what they represent, that basically means it also treats those who believe in capitalism with disdain and contempt. It's never even attempted to present its "money is bad" argument with any nuance. I think there are two major differences between Old Trek and NuTrek. First is that what's in Old Trek has not only been normalized but put on a pedestal. People too often view it with rose-colored glasses. Second is that Old Trek was often campy and cheesy. I say this not as a pejorative; that it's campy and cheesy means that people don't take it as seriously when it does something idiotic. NuTrek on the other hand tries to have the seriousness expected in the era of Prestige Television, except that it still retains a lot of the idiocy of Old Trek.

[@thomaswdyoung]

To avoid the moral dilemma, they could just keep beaming Tuvix about until a freak transporter accident solves the problem for them. Or he merges with Harry Kim to become... Threevix?

[@atimholt]

Remember the episode where space anomaly nonsense made it so two Voyagers with their crews were layered on top of each other, and they decided that meant that one of the crews had to die, even though they had a way to go between both versions of the ship? That was essentially a trolley problem where the trolley begins the scenario standing completely still, and they still failed.

[@captainjefferies9047]

They didn't fail. What's wrong with you?

[@gktravels4335]

they did try to handwave it after the fact that the magical hallway rift would break down if too many people went through.... Except they have teleporters and 2x Transporter rooms and a datalink between the ships soooooo yeah 100% needless killing

[@allanolley4874]

I thought they were attacked by someone (Vidians?) just after they duplicated and that was what destroyed the other ship, originally they were not going to destroy the ship, it was just the attack was going to destroy one and they only had a short window to save anyone so they went with Kim and Naomi Wildman because they were the only ones who had died in the attack so far on the other Voyager.

[@mitchellhorton9382]

They didn't really decide that, one of the ships got blown up

[@mitchellhorton9382]

@@allanolley4874 Yeah they only found out about the 2nd ship because it was being attacked relentlessly

[@edisonlima4647]

"Much to the audience MILD ACKNOWLEDGEDEMENT". I'm just... in love with that wording! It made my day! Thanks a million!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Given how it's Voyager perhaps they should have just altered the timeline to prevent these events from occurring to begin with.

[@calanon534]

The Department of Temporal Investigations in every century past the 24th and before had such massive problems with _Voyager_ that they initially assigned their best agent in the 29th century to it. He promptly went mad, got stuck in the 20th century at one point, went mad again, and tried to erase _Voyager_ from history.. that should tell you everything you need to know. If, by the 29th century, humans are that much smarter than humans of the 20th century compared to the 24th, and that much more intellectually capable.. _to drive their best officer absolutely stark-raving mad_ is not only an accomplishment, but a marker on how much bullshit _Voyager_ put the DTI through. They had ENOUGH headaches with Sisko getting Kirk's autograph...

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@calanon534 That department deserves its own spinoff

[@MarginalSC]

Time has moods tho

[@FaeQueenCory]

Killing both groups of people with the trolley problem is the perfect analogy. It's straight up killing more people than you needed to kill in the first place. But also: you can just duplicate people with the transporters easy. They just work that way... They practically have that as a built in setting.

[@mb7626]

IIRC the way transporters work in the series isn't even consistent. Sometimes they're supposed to work via the more commonly understood disassembly then reassembly mechanism, other times they're supposed to put the transported matter out of phase with the rest of physical matter so whole objects can get beamed through possible obstacles unimpeded, and there are transporter accidents, etc, that happen due to both kinds of these radically different purported mechanisms lol.

[@TroubleToby3040]

@@mb7626 I've never heard of this 2nd explanation for the transporter function, but at least it doesn't involve killing the original subject and then making a perfect clone of them somewhere else. Because that is what the original explanation has always amounted to. Just disassemble (kill) and then reassemble (clone) elsewhere. Scotty and O'brien have a lot of blood on their hands.🤷‍♂️

[@gremlin66n]

@@TroubleToby3040 While you're at it, can you make my new clone body built like the Rock and 15 years younger 😁

[@captainjefferies9047]

You cant duplicate people easily, and if you could that's no solution because it's not like one of the Tuvixs is going to be cool with being the one to be cured.

[@GregoriusTheBrown]

@@captainjefferies9047 You can't duplicate people easily, no, but you should be able to, based on how they say the Transporter works in the show.

[@BjornCanute]

Perhaps a better question is could they Tuvix the two Rikers? 😆

[@Faction.Paradox]

He would be known as RikerRiker and would be a human beard sleeping his way across the Alpha Quadrant.What I'm saying is no one would notice.

[@Tareltonlives]

His name would be either Riker or Riker

[@pentelegomenon1175]

He could be named William Thomas Riker. Or, Thwilliomas Rikirk.

[@CommanderM117]

@@pentelegomenon1175 that first part is will Ricker full name Combining the two would just create normal will but with added memory of being trapped on a small space station. as for adding to the names they share the same names so zero changes unlike tuvok and Neelix

[@rna151]

@@CommanderM117 I think you missed the joke there buddy.

[@MathAdam]

Alternative ending: When Tuvok and Neelix materialize they share Tuvix's memories and remain traumatized by his destruction.

[@captainjefferies9047]

Like Someone is traumatized by the surgery that saved their life.

[@dankeller4103]

​@@captainjefferies9047 Dude, either give actual reason why Tuvix shouldn't be categorized as a person or shut the fuck up. Repeating the same thing over and over, whenever someone mentions this episode, without even giving reason why you think that, is just obnoxious.

[@MyMagnificentOctopus]

You are overlooking the biggest issue with the Thomas Riker solution... You could possibly end up with TWO Neelixes. And no one wants that.

[@MattMcIrvin]

Somehow, due to a pattern buffer heterodyne negative tetrion data frame checksum error, one of them came out as a Dr. Phlox! I'm sure HE has some good ideas about the ethics of the situation!

[@amberace]

Oh lord, that is a risk no one can take

[@lynngreen7978]

SF-Debris might either agree or disagree. It would double the potential for Stupid Neelix Moment in every episode.

[@alionfish5]

@@amberace Yes, Tuvok could turn into Dr.Phlox and you would be stuck with Neelix and Phlox.

[@Morat48]

What they really should have done is first duplicate Tuvix in the transporter. Then they should take one and de-age him in the transporter to childhood. Then connect the pattern buffer into the holodeck to turn child Tuvix into a holocharacter. Then they put the holocharacter into a little cube and send it in a shuttlecraft at Warp 10 so that he hyperevolves into a salamander or something. Once that's done they can use Barclay's Protomorphosis Syndrome to revert salamander Tuvix into his earlier evolutionary form. Finally, use the transporter to cure any genetic illnesses that result. Problem solved.

[@cocobutter3175]

LOL,After the second sentence, I still thought this was going somewhere logical.

[@SECONDQUEST]

And you can time travel back to when Barclay was hyper intelligent and hooked into Enterprise to automate the process!

[@gm2407]

You should have just wrote 'Tech'.

[@InnocuousRemark]

They could have duplicated Janeway and made them fight. I'm not saying it would have solved anything but it would be funny

[@oddish4352]

Or sent Janeway and Harry down to the planet, and they come back as a being called "January". And since it's physical impossible for any incarnation of Harry to get promoted, this bizarre hermaphroditic creature is an ensign.

[@kaelibw34]

I mean I’d drop what I was doing to make sure to watch THAT episode

[@Daniel-yy5tx]

They totally did duplicate Janeway so she could fight herself--at least twice. Maybe more that I'm forgetting.

[@kaelibw34]

@@Daniel-yy5tx oh yeah. Once during season 2 and the series finale. I was thinking more of a fistfight

[@wstine79]

There is always a Riker Maneuver.

[@CommanderM117]

the More wills the the better as a will my self.

[@tsukikage]

Okay, I agree that duplicating Tuvix and then separating him would NOT solve this dilemma, but if they could have somehow duplicating him and separated him "in a single motion", so to speak, so this duplicate Tuvix never would become sentient, that would solve the dilemma. Of course, that would make the technical complications even more complicated than you described, so it would be very not feasible.

[@benroberts2222]

that's what I was thinking, use the transporter to separate Tuvix while beaming the separated individuals through the right atmospheric conditions. In computer science this is what we call an atomic operation; no intermediates are created that later get murdered.

[@tsukikage]

@@benroberts2222 Of course, this is all ignoring the fact that the very existence of Thomas Riker proves that the transporter is in fact a suicide machine, and every time you use it you're murdered. You cannot change my mind.

[@wendyheatherwood]

I feel like it could work if Tuvix agreed to it and then they sedated him for the whole process. Like if he was on board with the plan and the Tuvix that was unlucky enough to be the one that gets split is never actually conscious after the duplication then that is probably the least questionably moral outcome? But also I doubt Starfleet are freely sharing the method for mass producing instant clones they accidentally discovered. That seems like a need to know deal at best.

[@pentelegomenon1175]

an interesting tech for the evil mirror universe to exploit

[@wendyheatherwood]

@@pentelegomenon1175 it would be really useful for interrogations. You could interrogate multiple copies of the same person simultaneously with the promise that whichever one gives up the info first gets to live out the rest of their life in relative peace in a penal colony, while the others... best not think about what happens to the others. Also if you accidentally go too far you've got spares! :D

[@anionhero]

I completely agree with you that they shouldn't have "Thomas Rikered" him. However, it could be done without finding another planet like the one Thomas was created on. All they would have to do is modulate how they are transporting him in such a way as to get the same results. But they really, really shouldn't be trying to do it. I have nothing against Tuvix personally, but it just doesn't help with the moral and ethical problem the crew was facing.

[@danielgehring7437]

And I mean, where does it stop? If they're just going to use the teleporter to create duplicates and start mucking around with people's genetic codes, why not just make a better version of everyone on the crew? Or make a version of uber-Harry with all the best parts of the other crew members that could calculate a course out of the Delta Quadrant in a day and shoot lasers from his eyes? Or start making an army of 7 of 9s until they have enough to overwhelm the Borg? It's like the worst parts of Nazi eugenics and Logan's Run combined.

[@adamlevine6700]

The simple response to your comment is "who cares"

[@Artista_Frustrado]

@@adamlevine6700 you did Obviously

[@limiv5272]

My thoughts exactly. No need to find a planet identical to the one Riker was on, just artificially mimic the effect [assuming they have the records, as the video says, but I think that's likely]

[@Artista_Frustrado]

@@limiv5272 they mention they studied how they made Thomas Rikker, so the conditions are there, now how replicable it is hasn't been explained

[@KingOfMadCows]

The problem is that they didn't actually kill Tuvix. They know how to fuse and unfuse him so why not unfuse Tuvix and ask Tuvok and Neelix if they want to fuse again or stay separate? If they want to go back to being Tuvix then use the transporter and that alien plant to fuse them again.

[@mrcritical6751]

Issue is what if one of them refuses

[@Regin314]

Humpty Dumpty issue or if you prefer Heisenberg uncertainty principle .. if would be harder to put back together again exactly..

[@mrcritical6751]

@@Regin314 yeah you could end up with a completely different combo of them called Neelvok

[@MamaMOB]

It didn’t really seem like Tuvok or Neelix were suicidal. So I doubt either one would agree to dying.

[@YouthRightsRadical]

@@MamaMOB Nelix tended toward suicidal quite a bit. Dude was pretty depressed on the whole. I can see him going for it, especially after Kes chickened out and let the alien that possessed her dump him so she wouldn't have to do it herself.

[@periculum69]

I mean, the way transporters work is essentially you're always murdering the person and then just creating a copy. So you don't really need to recreate the conditions for Thomas Riker. You just need to disable the part of the transporter that kills the person in the first place. In fact, they could just use the saved scans of Tuvok and Neelix and recreate them without involving Tuvix at all. Nobody needs to be murdered to bring them back. It seems like the only reason to destroy Tuvix is abiding by the protocol that says killing the original is proper procedure when making a transporter clone. They just need to ignore that procedure.

[@4203105]

Transporters work super inconsistently. The official story is that they disassemble you, shoot your atoms through space and reassemble you at your destination. Of course with that explaination Thomas Riker could never have been created, so it doesn't make sense. Hence the working very inconsistently.

[@mitchellhorton9382]

That's not technically true, the transporter uses your physical body and converts it into energy, so you'd have to also pump extra power into the transporter to make a duplicate, but it wouldn't be that hard

[@enhydralutra]

There's just something intensely satisfying about watching someone whose videos are usually more on the silly side explain to a bunch of fans of a show why their idea won't work using technical knowledge and jargon of said show.

[@mrgrumpy888]

We were deprived of a potential Borg-ed Tuvix. Just try to imagine this nightmare fuel.

[@AutisticTea]

They could have called the duplicate Two-vix

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

Transporters just in general are an ethical nightmare. Every time they are used, they are basically killing the person and then building a clone of them. And we know that people can be in the transporter memory buffer for decades (Scotty did it), which means it doesn't have to be a simultaneous process, which means a person can just exist in computer memory, which means the transporter could be used as a human Xerox machine without needing a special planet, and then isn't it unethical to not keep a backup copy of every redshirt to goes on an away mission, for future restoration after they invariably die? Couldn't anyone with a transporter and a zealously loyal friend create an invasion army of clones? Since they can make modifications to the person in-transport (like removing alien pathogens so there isn't an outbreak on the ship), what other modifications are possible? Couldn't they have used that to fix Picard's heart condition? Hell, if you think about Thomas Riker for a bit from a more spiritual sense, the fact that he can exist like that pretty much disproves the concept of souls in the Star Trek universe. And yet, the end of DS9 and the TNG Episode "Tapestry" both seem to prove an afterlife exists, and I'm not sure how both of those can be true. But as for the actualy topic of the video. The option Janeway goes with is in line with "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", but it throws bodily autonomy out the window since Tuvix was against it. It's the equivalent of Tuvix being forced to donate his brain to save 2 crewmembers. Leaving Tuvix is a fairly safe option ethically. Tuvok and Neelix are for all intents and purposes dead at that point. I feel like the clone and split option isn't any worse than the Janeway choice. It's better ethically if the Voyager crew aren't familiar with the incident where Barclay was aware of his surroundings in the transporter stream, as pretty much everywhere else in ST lore, it is said you aren't conscious while transporting. Therefore in that case, from the Voyager crew's understanding, the clone would arguably never be alive and therefore could not be killed. They would be wrong, but it would be a forgivable mistake that I would say makes it actually better ethically than the Janeway option. However, socially it would be a nightmare on that tin can in space to have all three of them for any real length of time, and more than likely it wouldn't take long for a murder plot within that trio to occur. And does that make it less ethical to do if you can predict that outcome?

[@rachaelbao]

What a delightful discussion. Now I imagine voyager that keeps not only Tuvix, but runs the Paris-Janeway gecko babies through a humanizer, doesn't kill Mr. Suder and otherwise holds onto as many one-off characters as possible, like the Rock. The Rock just becomes a regular and we never get The Scorpion King.

[@mmmghool]

we never get Black Adam*

[@edisonlima4647]

Creating a sentient creature with the ONLY intent of imediatelly killing them would be considered unethical by most supervillains! Though I agree, Janeway would 100% try to do it if the idea came to her. Lol

[@Bored_Barbarian]

They literally did that in Enterprise with Trip’s clone

[@limiv5272]

@@Bored_Barbarian Just what i wanted to say

[@captainjefferies9047]

You don't get Janeway.

[@captainjefferies9047]

@@Bored_Barbarian Trip's clone was given a choice, and he was his own being, not two other people suffering from a medical condition.

[@limiv5272]

@@captainjefferies9047 Trip's clone's "choices" were to die and save original Trip, or die a few days later and let original Trip die. He was intentionally placed into a horrible situation. Also he wasn't really his own being, as he was aging he was magically gaining the memories thoughts and feelings that the original had when he was that age.

[@TroubleToby3040]

"It is a lose, lose situation, because, no matter what you do, there is some..." Neelix. No matter what you do, there's still some Neelix. Just do whatever results in the least Neelix. It's like the Trekkian Hypocratic oath says, "First, do no Neelix." I don't care much for Neelix, I guess is the point.🤦‍♂️

[@mortallobster897]

I just stumbled across this channel. It's great to hear that everyone can use a dry sense of humor to point out what should be obvious to most people but isn't. Your presentation and sharp wit has garnered a subscriber.

[@AllisonPregler]

Thank you!

[@seanedwardfitz]

Never heard or thought of the Thomas Riker option before, primarily because it's dumb and yeah obviously doubles the problem.

[@4203105]

It doesn't though. As long as you never pull one of the doubled ones out the transporter buffer before splitting them, you never created a new sentient being you have to kill. It might still be a bit iffy from a moral standpoint, but what is more important, your morality or that Tuvok, Neelix and Tuvix all get to love? It's certainly the better option than flat out killing Tuvix.

[@Trencher1375]

One of your best videos since your Werewolf at school reviews back in the day. More of this please.

[@user-bi8io5cj3g]

I love that Lower Decks's answer to the dilemma was that Tuvix should have made an army of Tuvixed people to overthrow Janeway. Oh and confirming that Janeway totally murdering him, of course.

[@DenderFriend]

Honestly loved when Lower Decks had Brad Boimler get himself a transporter clone while serving on the Titan and then his transporter clone renamed himself William Boimler just to such up to Riker.

[@WooperSlim]

Captain Janeway: We have done it! Two Tuvixes! Now let's just split the one... Commander Chakotay: Hold on a minute, although that allows us to save more lives, it also means we are killing more lives. We are back where we started! Janeway: Good point. Ensign Kim, we are going to need another two Tuvixes!

[@dww7094]

I'm so happy to see this channel getting more views you've been putting out so much excellent stuff over the years

[@AllisonPregler]

Thank you!

[@dantheories7276]

This has become one of my top channels. Love the content!

[@AllisonPregler]

Thank you!

[@tkayube]

What if they set the transporter up to do both the duplication and the splitting at once, so there's never actually a second Tuvix in the first place?

[@miriamrosemary9110]

Still a dilemma, but feels less bad on the conscience (if it were actually possible for them to do).

[@captainjefferies9047]

Why don't they just use the transporter to get back to Earth?

[@imbatman8472]

Why don't they just use the transporter to defeat the borg?

[@Tacom4ster]

This is like one of fav vids of your Allison, it's so simple, yet I keep rewatching, cloning is complicated

[@ottobaron6392]

Not only should they bring Tuvix back, they should give him the last name of "Shakur". That way Tuvix Shakur could be part of the Star Trek universe.

[@christiegreenwood2642]

Be the trooper who writes that fic! XD

[@twelfthknight]

Okay, but they could've saved Tuvix's uniform. I mean, merging two sapient beings into a gestalt entity by accident is incredible, but it also applying to their respective garments should've been the subject to intense scientific study and debate for generations. Hell, it would have serious theological implications if religion existed consistently anymore.

[@vurrunna]

I always liked to imagine that, someday in the future, Neelix, Tuvok, and the Doctor would would meet up again to recreate Tuvix, giving him a second chance at life. It's one thing to clone Tuvix and then kill the clone, but it's another if Neelix and Tuvok both willingly accept to have their genetic makeup copied into a transporter and combined into a separate entity. Are there still moral quandaries? Sure. But at least it gives me some closure to the fact they _straight up murdered a man for the sin of existing._ For the record, I also imagine Janeway getting tried for her numerous crimes against humanity once she returns to Federation Space, including the Tuvix incident. I also imagine her trying to apologize to Tuvix, who refuses to accept her apology, just to rub in how much of a monster she is. It gives me schadenfreude.

[@samanthakaputa7803]

What did I do to deserve so many WONDERFUL Star Trek videos on this hilarious channel!

[@wastelanddv8062]

The fans were so preoccupied with rather or not they could they didn’t stop to think if they should.

[@Johnsavage1]

What if it was the same moral dilemma only twice ?

[@phangkuanhoong7967]

you NO! made me lol-ed. Great stuff as always!

[@ComradePhoenix]

You see, our universe made this entire dilemma pointless by simply making teleportation impossible.

[@DavidBehlman]

Referring to him as "Thomas" Riker only emphasizes the fact that he's another distinct individual. Also glad you came around to knowing Janeway did the right thing!

[@CommanderM117]

same Person just Different Story 1 was trapped on that derelict space Station the Other made it out they ended up having a different personality because their differences but their also the same person as prier to the event they where 1 person and shared memory of that past before the event. Tovix Copy would be exactly the same as little to no time past after the transporter split him into 2 copies. it also depends how long will was trapped if say it happened during his time on board the Enterprise and he was to help fix a station some bad thing happened forcing him to leave and a week later they go back and find another will their then will on Enterprise will have to change his passwords and the new will gets station somewhere else maybe get his own ship if it during the people offering him his own ship. it Morally dubious if not much time past tho Tuvix should die Kill it with fire Exterminatius, also maybe kill neelix as well by accident.

[@charlestownsend9280]

He's only a different person cause he went through a different life though, that's what made him different and an individual.

[@DavidBehlman]

Ha. I thought someone might say "if a small enough increment of time passes it won't matter" but that misses the point. At the moment the two exist they desire and have autonomy. Just try asking which version of Tuvix wants to be split back into Neelix and Tuvok.

[@4203105]

He is, after both Riker's lived different lives for 8 years. At the moment they were split, they were essentially the same person. If the other Riker was never conscious, would he have been considered another person? Like if had rematerialised in a mountain and was dead instantly, would we consider him a separate person and give him another name? I don't think so.

[@4203105]

@@DavidBehlman unless they never become conscious, which is entirely possible if you keep them sedated during the procedure or if you keep one in the transporter buffer the whole time. With the last option he'll never even have existed in the first place.

[@Tareltonlives]

The real moral dilemma of Tuvix is if losing Neelix is worth losing Tuvok; that is, is Tuvok an acceptable sacrifice to get rid of Neelix.

[@kramermariav]

The good of the many outweighs the good of the one, so suck it up, Tuvok

[@danielyeshe]

I love this! Have you seen SF Debris?

[@Tareltonlives]

@@danielyeshe I love his Voyager reviews

[@aperson4640]

If they squeezed one more person in there they could call him Threevix.

[@KickYouInTheThroat]

If Tuvix had been the result of something Phlox did on Enterprise, his entire birth and death would have been a footnote in one of the casual conversations with the captain who happened to stop by for some alien icy-hot.

[@brian4804]

At first I thought you meant they would abandon Tuvix and go on their merry way. Too good for him, I say!

[@imbatman8472]

i understood that reference

[@Grimaldus1701]

Love your Star Trek videos! Thank you

[@modelmajorpita]

Thomas Riker joined the Maquis so the odds of the Voyager crew knowing about his situation is a lot higher than you might think since so many of them are Maquis, although they probably wouldn't know all the details from the Enterprise logs and even if they did the situation is nearly impossible to replicate.

[@CMWaters]

I wonder if this question of "Thomas Riker"ing Tuvix came up because they did so with a character on "Lower Decks" to return some status quo to that show.

[@janna-renee]

I love your Trek episodes.

[@MateriaHunter]

I never watched Voyager, every time I hear "Tuvix" it makes me think of the kids show "Cubix"

[@allanolley4874]

Robots for Everyone!

[@darkpuppetlordful]

All they need to do is stock up on those flowers (use non transporter tech to gather them) and we fuse Tuvix when we need his power most We need to enforce the Tuvix = a dragon ball character lore

[@Tareltonlives]

FU-SION HA!

[@darkpuppetlordful]

@@Tareltonlives "captain we have Borg cubes jumping in from 3 directions" "My God... Engineer Paris prepare for Tuvix protocol" *Tuvak and Neelix are thrown into the transport beam with the flowers*

[@Splendiferous42]

00:10 - 🎶How do you solve a problem like a Tuvix?🎶

[@danidanidani7478]

This is really random, but that Tuvix music part from the other video is permanently burned into my brain...so thanks for that.

[@alexandramclean9041]

I've always been a fan of the solution to Thomas Riker Tuvix, then un-fuse one of the Tuvixes, and then kill the ensuing Neelix, so that Tuvix can fill Neelix's size bajillion shoes, and Tuvok can continue his life with his wife.

[@AlienCowThatMoos]

I always figured the Thomas Riker thing proved that the Transporter kills people and sends a brand new copy off believing themselves to be real. I mean, if both the Riker on the ship and the Riker left behind believe they're the original, doesn't that mean in a normal beaming it's the same deal, but the one on the surface isn't there anymore?

[@edisonlima4647]

I mean, they both ARE real, even if one or both are not the original one. That reminds me of Doctor Who, though, and the Ponds.

[@JL0ndon]

Lol the tuvix dilemma is something that seems to pop up in my life with some regularity. What is life?!

[@jacks7852]

I really don't understand why they didn't have Tuvix in the end willingly let himself become separated. They literally have a line about how he's "greater than the sum of his parts", yet clearly falls short since he's "selfish" (probably a better word) and willing to essentially kill 2 others who did nothing wrong, so that he may live. Making him be the one to decide to die, would in theory have let the moral dilemma of the episode stay (if the crew were say arguing about what should be done), but without making the crew come away like horrible monsters.

[@christiegreenwood2642]

Honestly, I thought that the episode packed more of a punch that way.

[@jacks7852]

@@christiegreenwood2642 Which is why I think having the crew arguing about what to do, and maybe even having Janeway make a decision could all still happen in the episode. But what you could do is when Janeway comes to get Tuvix for to be separated, you can have him say something about how he came to the same decision himself. Basically the episode could have had its cake and eat it too, but it didn't need to have Janeway essentially carry out an execution.

[@stuartlittle281]

"since he's selfish and willing to essentially kill 2 others who did nothing wrong, so that he may live." TUVIX did nothing wrong. It's not Tuvix's fault he was created, so it's not on him that the other two are gone, and asking him to pay with his life to bring them back is punishing him for something that he isn't to blame for. Steve Shives did a video on this. This would be a possibly easier question to answer if they followed up on the Tuvix plotline at all, specifically with how Tuvok and Neelix felt about a living being being killed to ensure their survival.

[@jacks7852]

@@stuartlittle281 Your right Tuvix didn't deserve to die either. Of course he didn't, that's the tragedy of it all. No matter what innocent people will end up gone/dead at the end of the episode. But here's the thing "what kind of person is Tuvix" is at the core of this episode. So him being willing to sacrifice himself makes for an emotional choice. And the answer being "one willing to sacrifice himself to save others" is how he should be remembered. And as I said, if you have the crew/Janeway trying to make the decision for him you still can have the morally question of the episode there.

[@christiegreenwood2642]

@@jacks7852 Well, it made the decision more meaningful in my opinion, but what you're saying would have been good, too.

[@LondosMondo]

I think about Tuxiv's entire life just about every morning.

[@christophervu8097]

I love the name of this video. It’s a real Darmok phrase, where you’d only understand its meaning if you know the entire story behind Thomas Riker and the entire story behind Tuvix. Otherwise it is completely nonsensical, almost as if you were speaking a different language. Then it’s translated into meaning into using “Thomas Riker” as a verb to mean “creating a transporter clone of this person for them both to diverge separately”. And you only understand that if you know about Thomas Riker, but once you do, it just becomes shorthand that you immediately get. It’s a perfect name for a Star Trek video.

[@mmmghool]

I didn’t even realize how odd it sounds without context. I’ve truly become Trek brained

[@SAS-jj8yh]

This video made me very happy. Do you think you'd review more DS9 videos, Allison?

[@izzafizza339]

Tuvix is the Kobayashi maru. Literally I'm not kidding

[@CodeNameX001]

Tuvix was basically a conflict of everything Starfleet sees as sacred. He was a new form of unique intelligent life, and yet allowing him to exist would be to deprive 2 others of their own lives. Spock said, "The needs of the many, outweight the needs of the few, or the one". And yet, to follow this moral would completely go against the Prime Directive: the nurturing and maturation of new life.

[@696190]

............the Prime Directive refers to SOCIETIES, not individuals. by your logic, picking up the flowers would violate the PD, and yet it is in fact a goal for them to pursue rather than something to avoid

[@CodeNameX001]

@@696190 He was, inherently, a new form of sentient and sapient life entirely able to understand the means behind his existence, and able to contemplate his own mortality. That is, essentially, what Starfleet sets out to find.

[@danharris7190]

Love your videos, Allison! Sooooo goood XD

[@jamesstone1959]

Another great video.

[@theALmighty66]

I still think they should have just gotten a bunch of those orchids, even replicated a bunch, cultivated them, and then just brought back Tuvix every so often with the same technology that materialized him in the first place. Maybe just bring him back for a week once a year or something.

[@FussballTim]

we need a Tuvix Spin-off set in an alternate timeline

[@CorndogMaker]

this is like answering the trolley problem by saying "just get brakes!"

[@grahamgentz3580]

This is the ST content I crave.

[@joe9739]

1:17 That is literally THE MOST EPIC THUMBNAIL OF ALL-TIME!!!

[@walmartpimp2]

While they are at it, they should have used the spore drive to teleport back to Earth.

[@garethjones9280]

Your voice + tuvix always makes me feel like I'm on report. 🥰🥰🥰

[@Lia-jm4wh]

This is why they need to keep backups on the transporter buffer. "Oh, we've created an amalgam creature. Load the last backups"

[@jcbvortex22]

Janeway had her Tuuvix removed and can’t have kids! Lol😂

[@stapler942]

I can't let a good trolley problem reference go by without yelling "multi-track drifting!!!" for no real reason. 😉

[@JamesCarmichael]

I think I'd be uncomfortable with a person who has all my memories, DNA and my personality combine with another's. However if I was able to voice or even make a decision at the time I would wholeheartedly advocate for Tuvix's right to live as his own being.

[@maryqualls5086]

Well said! And I don't mind saying that you had me cracking up. 😂

[@kyuven]

When you learn in DS9 how exactly the transporters handle data, it becomes a serious question as to why they don't use it for medical procedures or resurrecting the dead. Cuz it converts people to data, which can be exported to the holodeck. Deliberately. As in, they didn't need an anomaly to do this (the anomaly was the reason they couldn't shit the crew out as normal. The holodeck thing was the solution) So if it's possible to move people into a holodeck program, it should be possible to copy the data.

[@explosivooo]

We're even getting Star Trek theory discussion videos?! You spoil us Allison

[@GeordiLaForgery]

Your Trek vids make me happier than Troi in a chocolate factory. Special shout out to Tom Riker whom, despite being alone for 8 years, had the exact same hairstyle as Will.

[@ElSelcho77]

I agree with the "there is already to many Neelixes with the one". He's the Tasha Yar of Voyager. Which is why Skin Of Evil is one of my favorite episodes of TNG.

[@LukeWarm05]

I hear there's a Tuvix/Groppler Zorn Odd Couple-style sitcom in the works. Can't wait!

[@gm2407]

It is the trolly dilema with the added facet that the two people are currently dead and one is alive, but you kill one to revive two. If anything the Thomas Riker solution resolves it but there is still the horrible choice of which person is selected to die. But now you are killing one person to get three people. No matter how you cut it one person dies.

[@harrywheildon6988]

I like to think Tuvix has been living rent-free in your head since the last video. 😁

[@vallraffs]

I think the reason why people come to the conclusion of using this as a "solution" is pretty simple: nerds. Trek fans are nerds who think every problem can be solved with continuity. It's like technobabble to them, bypasses all moral and technical quandaries.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

you know the Show has issues with their Characters when they turn the Trolley Dilemma into "ok but consider, what if we could get a second trolley?"

[@Artista_Frustrado]

also, the correct solution was to keep Tuvix, he's objectively better than the Sum of his parts, especially the Neelix part

[@oddish4352]

My theory is that the Double Riker event occured under very specific atmospheric conditions that couldn't be replicated. That's why no one discussed this solution.

[@captainjefferies9047]

Yeah, also the fact that it's insanely dangerous and any attempt to duplicate a transporter accident is likely to end with a pile of dying semi sentient goo on the transporter pad.