What Would Picard Do With Tuvix ? TNG vs Voyager . Picard vs Janeway

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[@EvenFlow406]

If a Tuvix-like situation had occurred on TNG, they would have developed a way the split him but by then realized he was his own unique individual. He would then be involved in an accident or harm himself after seeing the pain everyone else felt at losing two friends. Crusher would have no choice but to split them, end of episode.

[@Saddler1944]

If it was DS9 you could have made it a 3 to 4 episode B plot. After those episodes of getting to know people making friends saving the day. You hit a no-win scenario where only way to save the day is to split back into 2 people.

[@crackwitz]

that's the same premise and same outcome, but with extra steps to spare people from having to make hard decisions because there aren't any decisions the lesson on life should not be "hope that the universe takes responsibility away from you" it should be "there are hard decisions, make them and figure out how to live with it"

[@EvenFlow406]

@@crackwitz I know it's the same scenario. The real reason Tuvix was split is because the showrunners wanted Tuvok and Neelix around. The way to have the crew make the moral choice to accept Tuvix but still end up with Tuvok and Neelix is to have them choose, then force their hand the other way at the end of the episode. Star Trek does this all the time. Instead what we got on VOY was an ending that makes all the main characters except the Doctor look like sociopaths. That is not the better version.

[@LordZontar]

In a TNG script, Tuvix would have made the decision to split himself back into Tuvok and Neelix and thereby sacrifice himself. It would have been his choice. Which is how it should have been done in the Vger episode. The murder of Tuvix was when I really began to hate Vger.

[@everardohernandez8036]

TNG would have Syfy their way out of it that have all three of them live

[@happyplaceforever101]

The holographic doctor was more human that anyone on that ship. He refused to participate, and Janeway had to kill Tuvix herself.

[@happyplaceforever101]

@Route 69 People say it's ok, because Tuvix is just a medical accident of two people... So are we! We are a product of our parents sperm & eggs. Tuvix is technically Tuvoc & Nelix son, but just with their memories.

[@Excalibur01]

@@happyplaceforever101 That's not the same. We are the product of a natural process. Tuvix was an accident but he was alive and his own person. They should have made this left uncomfortable by saying Tuvix was gonna die if he stayed fused or something like that

[@russellarcher5181]

@@Excalibur01 Agreed, buuuuuut; in the episode, there a -flimsy- line about how the pollen of the flowers were mating, and the Pattern Buffer was trying to maintain consistency on the cellular level; so the Transport accelerated the, 'mating' process of Tuvok and Neelix. but no one watching the episode bought that for a second

[@skyserf]

BestAnimeFanservice Great point.

[@TentaclePentacle]

@Route 69 picard didn't disagree with lal's existence, he disagreed with data making her saying he should have been consulted. It's not like picard wanted to kill lal after the fact. Picard had a thought, and he was wrong data set him straight in saying no other crew memeber on board needed permission to have a kid, and picard agreed when data set him straight. That's good writing it shows picard can be wrong, but realizes it immediately and can change course.

[@Revan498]

as many problems as ST: Enterprise had, at least Clone Tucker got a funeral after they murdered him....

[@2bituser569]

There was a body and sim had Tucker’s memories too.

[@senorpepper3405]

yeah, that wuz a crazy episode. he grew up hella fast.

[@everardohernandez8036]

And Sim agreed to the procedure

[@outtagoodnamesdangit]

Yeah. Plus, it's not like they knowingly withheld the cure for a disease that almost certainly would have spelled the utter extinction of an entire raOHHHH, wait, right, I forgot...

[@squattingheads]

@@outtagoodnamesdangit holding the cure made ethical sense

[@thetango797]

Gotta admire Janeway's conviction, not only did she execute Tuvix herself she looked him stone dead in the eye while she did it.

[@supportpatriarchyordietrying]

The person who passes the sentence should swing the sword. (However she wanted the doctor to do it at first)

[@Briellen_Mellott]

She should have received a conviction.

[@tablesalt2628]

@@Briellen_Mellott More like a medal

[@Adrian2140]

A true hero.

[@dreamofsprings]

A murderer and a sadist

[@strawhataddison]

Katherine "There's Coffee in that Nebula" Janeway strikes again.

[@gothicsoldier]

Katherine "There's moral relativity in that Lieutenant" Janeway

[@davfree9732]

I always liked Janeway when she had to come down on one side or the other. In this case, she lost a crewman. Tuvix May have been a better man than Tuvok or Neelix, but both could be in two places where Tuvix could not. And they weren’t exactly recruiting on the way to the Alpha Quadrant. I think that is what brought Janeway to her decision. If she allows Tuvix to remain, she’s giving up on at least one duty station the ship needs to function. And if over time she allows that to go on, Voyager wouldn’t end up home. Personally though, I wanted to see Janeway as Seven did when she was making conspiracy theories. The idea of a Captain under orders to secure the caretakers power core, and then live with the guilt of knowing she completed her mission, but that she was lying to everyone and living with that guilt would have added a layer to Janeway that would explain why she could end Tuvix and bring back Tuvok a son Neelix without batting an eyelid

[@mikicerise6250]

Now you know what happens when she doesn't get her coffee fix.

[@Excalibur01]

"I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that" is my answer to a lot of things

[@JayTemple]

I assume that Starflleet has something equivalent to the GAO. It's a good thing he doesn't work there!

[@starseed96]

It's my go-to answer in math class.

[@Blox117]

so is that why you failed preschool math? lol

[@Excalibur01]

@TurboCMinusMinus moral choices is not as simple as numbers. Otherwise it renders our value to reassigned numbers.

[@Brandonious15987]

@@Excalibur01 Ignoring the numbers is deliberately simplifying this moral choice. Okay lets ignore the numbers. Then in this situation there is no right or wrong answer. Life was taken so life would continue. A decision would be made with less usable information.

[@qgamer2266]

This is what Star Trek should be about, debating about philosophy like the Tuvix dilemma. STP+STD had 0% philosophy but 100% dumb soap opera blah blah :-(

[@logicplague2077]

ssshhhhhh, look at the pretty lights. - Kurtzman

[@gurgy3]

Q GAMER It also has 50% fungus warp speed!!!

[@DarkestVampire92]

Not entirely fair, i feel. Kurtzman is a terrible project lead and his vision is bleak and politically speaking, awful, but we have a similar situation in Discovery which is resolved in a better way, with lasting consequences, than what Janeway did. In Voyager no one ever brings this up again and Tuvok returns to logic while Neelix returns to foolishness, but even after Voq is removed from Ash Tylers existance his psyche is permenantly damaged and he remains hated by both worlds, as well as belonging to neither. Burnham´s terrible character and their ill written romance aside, Ash Tyler was quite an interesting look into what Tuvix could´ve been if they ran with it.

[@logicplague2077]

@@DarkestVampire92 can't deny that, and I do like the idea of lasting consequences, as opposed to simply forgetting about it next episode.

[@qgamer2266]

@Los Matadorès Well if you like the dark tone of VOY's "Year of hell" then you also love STD and STP for sure

[@DarkNova50]

TNG Picard: "I cannot end a man's life based on some rhetorical notion of a 'greater good,' not when he has demonstrated the sort of sentience, the sort of free will, that we claim to value in all life forms." Janeway: "I'ma kill it."

[@VictorythroughUnity59]

Goku: Don't you dare

[@Revan498]

and then I'll get on my high horse over other star fleet oficers doing what I did! (Equinox)

[@preferredpronoun3689]

But Tuvix was at fault. He was two people, but selfishly wanted to stay alive when he was simply the product of an accident between two people that no longer existed but for him. He was a petty, scared and selfish creature. #Janewaydidnothingwrong

[@NitpickingNerd]

@@preferredpronoun3689 he did not cause the accident . He was an innocent person who commited no crime

[@preferredpronoun3689]

@@NitpickingNerd Nobody is talking about crime. This is a moral question. Tuvix never asked the question if he had a right to exist. His existence was because of the demise of two others, of which he himself could directly fix. If you were Tuvix, would you not think you were granted life at the behest of others to be an unjust grant? I would.

[@HorusHeretic]

Clone his pattern in the transporter.

[@antoniowakardo7280]

Cloning is forbidden afaik. In Star Trek

[@emagotis]

Luckily murder isn't, apparently so.

[@thefurrybastard1964]

@@antoniowakardo7280 It wouldn't actually be cloning. If you remember, something similar happened to Riker, creating a duplicate of him.

[@redshirtveteran5688]

@@thefurrybastard1964 "Up the Long Ladder" had Riker (and Pulaski) cloned, and they killed the clones. I imagine you mean "Second Chances" though.

[@thefurrybastard1964]

@@redshirtveteran5688 I do indeed.

[@MrSoopSA]

Meanwhile STP Picard would say to cut Tuvix in half and then proceed to carry out the act while wondering how everyone else was so dumb for not doing it earlier.

[@rhuman8672]

In Star Trek Picard they would pull his eyes out and see if that would help

[@Shendue]

They would shoot him and kick the body.

[@GetterRay]

"Each of you is going to have to live with this" Not with Voyager's handy reset-button, they don't!

[@jasonseipler2665]

I like to imagine they were all court-martialed and tried for various crimes after they made it back to Earth and Starfleet reviewed their service logs.

[@joshuaewalker]

This should've weighed on someone's conscience enough for them to become severely depressed if not suicidal. Nobody cared or remembered by the next episode.

[@ptonpc]

@@joshuaewalker It should have been. Characters talking about it, perhaps worried that if push comes to shove in another situation Janeway will sacrifice them 'for the good of the ship' while their colleagues watch. Instead no one apart from the Doctor cared enough to protest. I doubt the murder was even a one liner in someone's personal log.

[@Hewhowantstoknow]

@@joshuaewalker You think that's bad? Remember the time when Kim and Naomi (as a baby, so mostly Kim is left with the existential dread) entered another dimension's Voyager because theirs was about to self destruct to save this other dimension's Voyager from the Vidiians, Kim even mentioned that this wasn't his Voyager at the end of the episode never again mentioned in any episode past that, went on to live out this other Kim's life (And Ensign Wildman was raising another Wildman's kid after hers was stillborn)

[@ThePeacemaker848]

Everybody loves Mondays on Voyager!

[@garrettdark5668]

What would Sisko do with Tuvix? He'd get Garak to fabricate evidence that Tuvix was planning on taking control of the ship, and have Garak "kill" Tuvix to restore him to Nelix and Tuvok. Then Sisko would blame Garak for his conscious, and punch him while getting drunk and deleting all records of the incident.

[@NaeMuckle]

This is why I hate ds9

[@rickymort135]

This is why I love ds9

[@tazthefirst7176]

I couldn't stop laughing for 5 min after reading that.

[@LukeDavidRobinson]

He can live with that... Tuvix sadly can’t.

[@stevekillgore9272]

@@LukeDavidRobinson LOL

[@IblameBlame]

God damn dude. This is your own masterpiece.

[@marksmith6785]

This five minute edit has more Star Trek in it than the last 10 years of the franchise.

[@JM-gd3hr]

Janeway wouldn't even do what Janeway did. Her characterization was all over the place in Voyager

[@austinarellano1657]

Not really she was pretty consistent . It's just she had the hardest morale decisions to make . There was no objective right answer in this episode. One of the reasons it's so great because it shows sometimes there is no line between right and wrong , there is only perception .

[@Sensorium19]

I agree that the writing for Janeway was often subpar, but they did develop a history of her taking risks or making decisions with other people's lives in the name of what she thinks is right or necessary. Tuvix is just the ultimate form of that. She did that when she took 7 of 9 out of the collective against her will. I primarily blame the writers for either not recognizing the decision she made were morally wrong, even if they were necessary, or just plain giving her immediate cathartic forgiveness because things just had a way of working out for her.

[@Revan498]

@@austinarellano1657 I don't question the difficulty of the descesons she made here, or in other episodes... but I can most certainly blame her for constantly claiming the moral high ground and riding around on her high horse after she repeatedly pulls BS like this over and over and over again *cough*Equinox*cough*

[@TentaclePentacle]

well every month for a period of time janeway was always a bit unstable and crazy. Maybe the writers are trying to tell us something.

[@TentaclePentacle]

@@austinarellano1657 the right decision is not to kill. You don't kill 1 to save 2, that is immoral.

[@1987jock]

Just ask Janeway? When Neelix was dying of having no lungs she told the people resonsible "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another... so I see no other alternative than to let you go".

[@mesoanto1031]

Good memory

[@FatJack210]

Looks like Janeway just doesn't like Neelix lmao

[@peytonmac1131]

If it had been Tuvok without lungs though, I pity those poor Vidians.

[@rogerr.8507]

Janeway BTFO

[@benjaminsmythe8967]

If it was Picard from that awful show, he would have just sat there shaking, getting emasculated by shipmates while Tuvix exploded.

[@CourtneyCoulson]

Hahaha!

[@scockery]

Hearing that Tuvix resisted, "What could've driven such a gentle soul to violence?"

[@matthewcorcoran2891]

Tuvix would have had his eyes gouged out first, just to show that they’re grown ups making the show.

[@fenrisvermundr2516]

Then he would randomly start talking about how he couldn't save all the Romulans from the Hobus Star whoops sorry Romulan Star from going supernova. He wouldn't even remember who Tuvix was.

[@aziizrocks]

I know right🤭, but Guinan is soo close so i'm all in for season 2.

[@thefurrybastard1964]

The way the Tuvix story handles the Transporter, they could have split the beam, pulled Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix before rematerialising them, while the duplicate beam preserved Tuvix. Janeway committed Murder.

[@adampender3685]

The medical procedure only allowed one set of DNA to be marked, so they really just pulled Tuvok(or Neelix) out and everything else became the other.

[@everardohernandez8036]

It's Syfy, they could have written their way out of it but they wanted it to be dramatic

[@n1nj4l1nk]

@@everardohernandez8036 no, it's Sci-fi, syfi is a channel.

[@hoshizoraaki8302]

That would be considered cloning, which I believe is forbidden by the Federation.

[@ancapftw9113]

Exactly. Thomas Riker Maneuver that situation.

[@punishedDutch]

They should've kept Tuvix as a character some how, he was interesting. It was a great origin story for him.

[@supportpatriarchyordietrying]

I hated him. He was such a slimey kissa$$. And he looked ugly as hell.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Had Tuvok's DNA harvested to bring him back, while letting the Chomo Neelix die.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

Riker was dublicated, what shows that the transporter is more a replicator...it would have been possible to keep Tuvix and still get Tuvok and Neelix out within the existing lore. Picard is the one I think who would have taken this way out, or at least let Tuvix live, even at the cost of two other lives.

[@OurFantasyLife]

Tuvix was an extremely uncomfortable episode for me. Janeway (and by extension the entire crew) straight up murdered someone and they never talk about it again. Bonkers.

[@omp199]

@@markusnashorn1145 I wonder if it is possible that certain cast members refused to participate in a scene that they considered to be promoting an immoral message. I don't know if that would have been allowed, given that they presumably had contracts, but it might explain their otherwise unexplained absence.

[@omp199]

@@markusnashorn1145 Hmm. I need to re-watch _Voyager._ I've started commenting on KZbin videos about episodes that I watched maybe a couple of decades ago, and I could end up embarrassing myself, that way. I have forgotten so much in that amount of time.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

Even worse, she pretended to sit on the high horse, both with the Vidians and the Equinox.

[@BuceGar]

"Tuvix" is one of the most underrated Start Trek episodes in existence. The moral dilemma has no answer.

[@FlowersInHisHair]

It does, and this Picard comparison shows it quite clearly. The ends do not justify the means.

[@toamatau8785]

@@FlowersInHisHair Picard lives in a fucking convenient, easy show though. If Tuvix were a TNG episode Picard would side with Tuvix and let him live and then Tuvix would randomly separate himself anyways. Picard was all talk but never actually had to do anything because the show got him out of every tough spot.

[@WhiteScorpio2]

Of course it does. No nation on the modern Earth would allow murder of an innocent being even in order to save several other lives (like harvest a living uncooperating person for organs). Neither would the Federation. Janeway and her crew are simply murderers.

[@Deven_McKee]

@@WhiteScorpio2 This isn't about saving two unrelated lives. There are two full beings trapped inside that body that will no longer be able to live their lives if nothing is done. Tuvix is a combination of those beings, separating him will of course seem like a trauma to him, but its not murder. Neelix and Tuvoc retain some of the memories and experiences of their life as Tuvix, just as Tuvix retained memories of their separate lives. Neelix and Tuvoc clearly weren't killed when they became Tuvix, and vise versa. The concept of murder was just a rhetorical device that Tuvix attempted to use to convince the crew not to separate him.

[@WhiteScorpio2]

@@Deven_McKee "Neelix and Tuvoc clearly weren't killed when they became Tuvix" So there was no need to separate Tuvix against his will then? If Tuvix is not a separate person, but just a combination, then two beings aren't "trapped" inside his body, they are just combined and they strongly express their desire to stay combined. But that's bullshit anyway, since Tuvix was specifically stated in the episode to be a separate person, so ending his life was murder.

[@illustriouschin]

Tuvix was civilized and they exploited that fact. He allowed himself to be killed even though he wanted to live. He could have stolen a shuttle or found some way to escape or fight back.

[@shawarden]

As a part Vulcan he should have been able to wreck the security team... Silly Neelix half.

[@scockery]

Escape and become the season's big bad. Oh, old Trek didn't have those.

[@randomrazr]

what about neelix and tuvoks life.

[@shawarden]

@@randomrazr well they died in a transporter accident. But you know, the needs of the many...

[@ZeroB4NG]

@@scockery hmm... Seska?

[@MarkLLawrence]

Just make a transporter duplicate and split the original.

[@rudiruttger]

Checkmate, DM

[@thefurrybastard1964]

That would leave you with the same ethical problem, but now it's doubled.

[@ZeroB4NG]

@@thefurrybastard1964 what if it all happens inside the Transporter Buffer and the clone is not concious yet before being split back into the original form?

[@thefurrybastard1964]

@@ZeroB4NG If it happens inside the transport buffer, that'd work. There's still something of an ethical problem, but technically it doesn't exist until it is rematerialised.

[@PASTRAMIKick]

They did that with Thomas Riker

[@TDHurley]

Janeway and her flexible moral compass; a sanctimonious hypocrite.

[@MurdocIsASaint]

Picard is also a hypocrite

[@TDHurley]

@@MurdocIsASaint when?

[@oddish4352]

She made the Terminator look like Strawberry Shortcake.

[@MackerelCat]

That’s why we love her

[@Borastheantichrist]

Just imagine a different ending to the series in which Janeway brings Voyager home only to be arrested for the murder of Tuvix...

[@Briellen_Mellott]

I wanted to write the episode.

[@rossifelipe8569]

Sorry but i agree with Janeway, nobody should live through the hell that is living within Nelix

[@insertanynameyouwant5311]

but he seemed to feel good lol

[@Rob_Thorsman]

Nobody deserves that! Not even Tuvok!

[@koshi6505]

The real moral quandary is whether it is ethical to revive Neelix to save your friend.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

@@koshi6505 As long as the other friend ISN'T Neelix, then it IS ethical.

[@djsavic6746]

Ironically the holographic doctor was the only person on Voyager who acknowledged that Tuvix was a sentient life form. Janeway had continuously made bad decisions throughout the 7 year trip back to the alpha quadrant, many times making me sick of watching the show because of her double standards. Great video dude, really making me miss watching the old next generation episodes.

[@oddish4352]

Unfortunately, Voyager's writers didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. Having Janeway be a good and consistent character just wasn't gonna happen.

[@666chapelofblood]

@@oddish4352 The main problem is that they had a different person writing Janeway almost every episode and each person wanted Janeway to be a particular way. So she'd just be a different character depending on who's writing her. That's why in one episode she's putting Tom in the brig for 30 days for violating the prime directive, then she's violating the prime directive the very next episode with telepathic aliens.

[@supportpatriarchyordietrying]

Janeway = SJW prototype Captain before the term "SJW" even existed

[@HuntSmacker]

Janeway changed her morals more often than her hair, and the fault lies entirely at the feet of the writers. Ultimately it's probably down to Rick's insistence that Trek should remain true to the original vision, and constricting the writers to the reset every week. In TNG this worked because the writing of Picard was consistent enough to be felt throughout the show, but in Voyager this meant one minute she was the moral busybody and the next she was as bad as the Equinox captain. What is it with Ricks anyway?

[@dragonknightleader1]

Ironically, Captain Ransom was more moral than Janeway. He was consistent in his desperation. Janeway was comfy AF, even if there was a serious lack of coffee.

[@HuntSmacker]

@@dragonknightleader1 There's coffee in that nebula! It's one of the reasons that I like the early seasons of VOY. Oh sure, the Kazon were kinda mediocre and the Viidians were grossly underdeveloped, but there was a lot of potential early on. Unfortunately as the show goes on the inconsistencies start to mount up to the point that, even though there are some good eps in the later seasons, it's just hard to stomach the show by that point.

[@austinarellano1657]

Janeway had the most difficult morale decisions to make . But every decision she made was always for the greater good . I think of Janeway as the best Trek captain by far . And was more consistent than you think . She had the most difficult task, She kept a command structure while being so far from home and the comfort of the federation and Starfleet. She had the best balance between leader and a maternal role model to her crew. Voyager in general had the some of the most creative plots and they ALWAYS tied in with great character progression and always had a great take away. Star Trek Voyager is the greatest Star Trek show .

[@TentaclePentacle]

but it actually fits, there are actually people like janeway in real life. janeway is the karen of startrek.

[@TentaclePentacle]

@@austinarellano1657 that's the point a mother should never be a captain to a crew. Mothering is based on emotion, and captains need to be logical.

[@sargon6000]

3:03 "We have learned to detect the seeds of criminal behavior" *Person of Interest intro starts playing*

[@phantommercenary8650]

I can't watch this knowing what Picard turns into

[@beingsshepherd]

And Sir Patrick.

[@RobertWF42]

"Tuvix" **was** Tuvok and Neelix combined together. They were suffering a severe medical and mental condition as a result of a transporter malfunction and needed to be treated.

[@joa8593]

This is the crux of the episode. Was it murder of Tuvix, or the curing of Neelix and Tuvok? I feel a lot of people don't get that, they think it's simply 1 life vs. 2.

[@verbageddon]

A reminder to everyone postulating "Here's what Sisko would do..." Sisko was put into this situation when Kurzon Dax and Odo merged and wanted to remain that way.

[@kettch777]

Little different. Both became their prior selves. Kurzon had already died, which is a point he makes to Odo/Kurzon. He was just a memory, not a living being----and he remained after separating from Odo as part of Dax.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Sisko would have brought them back, just to stick up for his own.

[@dominikdobrotic8298]

Even if Picard decided to separate Tuvix he wouldn't be as rash as Janeway. He would carefully consider it. In the end he would make such an inspiring speech that would make Tuvix decide for himself it is better to separate himself.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

Or accept his free will not to sacrifice himself. That is what I loved about TNG

[@metazare]

My father and Picard were the two people who forged my moral compass when I was young.

[@mesoanto1031]

Jesus Christ is still forging my moral compass

[@PR--un4ub]

@@mesoanto1031 I prefer Picard.

[@PaladinLevi]

In Janeway's defense, she needed her science officer. His wasn't the only life at stake...and Tuvok and Neelix probably would want to go on living as well.

[@dragonknightleader1]

Chief of security. But even in that episode, they make a point that Tuvix is better at his job that Tuvok because he was willing to listen to his hunches. Besides, Starfleet officers do need to learn how to cook anyways. They'd stop making faces when it came to Neelix's food.

[@PaladinLevi]

@@dragonknightleader1 Yeah, sorry, I knew that was wrong as soon as I posted it but it's been a while since I watched the series and was too lazy to change it. At any rate, it would be hard to give up an old friend for someone who suddenly came into existence accidentally.

[@JoelJurvakainen]

Tuvok and Neelix were alive inside Tuvix. At least, that's the way I see it. Tuvix was a third entity that was pointlessly killed.

[@PaladinLevi]

@@JoelJurvakainen If a family member and one of your friends were combined, would it be a mere matter of ethics for you?

[@MGuyGadbois]

Vorik is a vulcan we know on that ship - mindmeld and talk to both. Tuvok's Katra is there ....

[@alosumo87]

I think you have done a wonderful job with this video. It is very credible and convincing.

[@neilsanghvi5229]

Thank you for this - as a child I sided with the crew because of the emotional desire to see the original two characters restored. I even thought Tuvix's description of the procedure as murder was a melodramatic attempt to preserve his life. I now realise the moral arguments far outweigh the personal, and that Tuvix was indeed a new, sentient life form who was indeed murdered by Starfleet personnel.

[@beingsshepherd]

Or was he in truth, an amalgam of an extricable two?

[@sugarnads]

​@@beingsshepherdthats exactly what he was

[@TheCrimsonRevenger]

It's heartbreaking just how SAVAGELY different Jean-Luc Picard and Patrick Stewart truly are. You'd think the actor who made this character feel so alive and inspiring could have absorbed some of his better traits.

[@AidanMclaren]

Forgive me for saying this, but I think most people are immoral in real life. That's why people create heroes in fiction -- because they do not really exist in our world. So it's sadly apt, to me at least, that we see the man who portrays him having no integrity whatsoever.

[@TheCrimsonRevenger]

@@AidanMclaren What is there to forgive? You're pretty much right. The only part i'd disagree with is that people like this DO exist but they're so rare you probably have a better chance of winning the mega lottery or being struck by lightning than you have of ever meeting them. Fo most of my life...until life itself sort of beat it out of me...I worked to be the kind of man Jean Luc Picard inspired me to be. And I still retain the deep, profound respect for Truth...even uncomfortable truths....that Picard taught me to strive for. This world is full of people far, FAR stronger than I am. What a shame they don't have anyone like Picard to inspire the best in them. Because for every one Jean-Luc Picard there's a million Patrick Stewarts.

[@AidanMclaren]

@@TheCrimsonRevenger It's a strange irony that a fundamentally immoral place full of immoral people, like Hollywood, produces a show like Star Trek. Have you heard the theory that Shatner killed his own wife? I'd say that's even more depressing than Steward if that's correct.

[@xazelnighthaunterfanboy975]

I tought that atleast Paris would be against, since he would have chance to get with Kes

[@Jarvis-MkII]

I've often wondered why they made Admiral Janeway so familiar and friendly with Picard in the Nemesis movie... real Picard probably would have disliked Janeway intensely because of her actions in the Delta Quadrant.

[@TentaclePentacle]

janeway altered the records, but yes real picard would have hated janeway, but he still would have played nice with her.

[@Saddler1944]

@@TentaclePentacle Why would she need to alter the records have you seen Starfleet Admiral's. Murder is the easiest way to get promoted.

[@greengreeneya2102]

Real Picard allowed killing clones, because according to him clones do not have right to exist. Soo how Picard is any better?! Janeway saved Tuvok and Neelix from death. Tuvix life was death of Tuvok and Neelix.

[@bigfootfound5301]

He liked Janeway, because she didn't tell him to "Shut the F up," with his "F-ing Hubris."

[@greengreeneya2102]

@@TentaclePentacle Janeway did not altered anything. Everything she did, she did for her crew to survive. Picard would have done same thing if Worf and Riker were merged.

[@dhowison6052]

“Each of you are going to have to live with this.” Next episode: Who??

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Everyone who has to live with this: We got Tuvok back! We got Tuvok back!

[@tykholol]

Fantastic, my favorite of all your videos I've seen so far. Tuvix has been discussed endlessly because it's beyond controversial, it's darker and more of a departure from Star Trek than any other episode. People talk about DS9 being dark, having morale dilemmas that portray actions and decisions contrary to Roddenberry's vision, but "Tuvix" most certainly highlights a really sinister facet of a certain Starfleet officer. Janeway wanted her friend back, because she knew Tuvok for so long; that was the essence of why she made the decision to kill Tuvix. Tuvix was not a Starfleet officer, so her orders for him to sacrifice himself can't be justified by the notion of ordering an officer to sacrifice himself for his crew. He was a convergence formed after the death of a Starfleet officer and a civilian. I have no doubt that Tuvok, as a virtuous officer would never have gone along with the murder of an innocent to have himself reincarnated.

[@danielhaire6677]

The murder of Tuvix was the point that I stopped routinely watching Voyager as I could no longer stomach the revolving door that was Janeway's morals. And Starfleet promoted her rather than Court Martial her!!!

[@AlastairjCarruthers]

I genuinely believe Janeway made the wrong decision on this one. The way I look at it Tuvok and Neelix died in an unfortunate accident, but in the process a new and unique sentient individual was born. It's simply not okay to deliberately kill someone currently alive to retrieve two others who died in an earlier accident; that would be like cryogenically freezing a couple who died in a car crash shortly after the birth of their child, then when that child is an adult murdering them and using their organs to bring the parents back to life. Not okay.

[@squattingheads]

Or timetravel. Traveling back to save 50 people and „kill“ the countless who had been born and are currently alive. the federations First damn directive even is about that. how some people can’t understand this boggles my mind

[@AlastairjCarruthers]

@@squattingheads Actually I slightly disagree on that one. If you change the past then you're not strictly killing anyone, the people from the previous timeline either didn't now exist to start with, or they do still exist but in an alternate timeline. To say you're killing people by going back and changing the timeline is like saying you're killing children by making a decision not to start a family.

[@KuraSourTakanHour]

4:36 good job to make it sound like he's talking about Janeway

[@Scripture-Man]

This channel is sublime. The research and editing is incredible.

[@pointcuration1278]

The Tuvix thing is the sort of situation it may be reasonable to pull a phaser on the others, captain or security officers. Or for the Doctor to actively prevent the captain from carrying out the procedure. The fact that nobody opposed the action is worse than the action itself. Evil will always exist but it is ignoring evil that is reprehensible.

[@Sensorium19]

@@null643 I don't understand this argument. The spore is responsible. Tuvix isn't. Nelix and Tuvok are already dead. We could recreate them by killing this new person, but he wants to live.

[@VictorNewman201]

@@Sensorium19 Obviously Tuvok and Neelix were not "dead", they were restored instantly when Tuvix was euthanized

[@Porogna]

@@VictorNewman201 TBH them being restored instantly becomes irrelevant once Tuvix, a sentient life, advised he wished to live. Janeway even says she can't kill one life to save another in the episode, Phage, as their society find it's a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. As shown by this dialogue: "I can't begin to understand what your people have gone through. They may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. If we were closer to home I would lock you up and turn you over to my authorities for trial, but I don't even have that ability here, and I am not prepared to carry you forever in our brig. So I see no other alternative but to let you go."

[@derek96720]

@@Porogna "Tuvux, a sentience life" That's debatable. We know for a fact that he is literally two sentient, living beings grafted together at the molecular level. He's a freak amalgamation of two people who didn't consent to be joined.

[@Porogna]

@@derek96720 The circumstances of how he came into existence are really not relevant, much like how a child is an amalgamation of their parents DNA. Consent or not he exists and is a living being. By their own admissions Janeway and Chakotay do consider Tuvix a sentient individual from their discussion in her ready room. "JANEWAY: It's funny. If we'd had the ability to separate Tuvok and Neelix the moment Tuvix came aboard, I wouldn't have hesitated. CHAKOTAY: Of course not. JANEWAY: But now, in the past few weeks, he's begun to make a life for himself on this ship. He's taken on responsibilities, made friends. CHAKOTAY: I count myself as one of them. JANEWAY: So at what point, did he become an individual and not a transporter accident? (doorbell) Come in. (Tuvix enters.)" The doctor straight up makes it known how unethical he sees it by refusing to perform the procedure "EMH: I'm sorry, Captain, but I cannot perform the surgical separation. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. I will not take Mister Tuvix's life against his will." So Janeway by her own actions and what she says about Federation society in the episode Phage is an unethical murderer. Then again we are talking about Janeway. Ethical behaviour and running her ship by Starfleet principles are very fluid concepts for her. Much like in the episode Counterpoint, a couple of episodes after she puts Paris in the brig for violating the Prime Directive. "JANEWAY: I'm still counting on getting this ship home. KASHYK: Are you sure you'll be welcome when you do? I came across something else in your database. The Prime Directive. JANEWAY: The Federation's cardinal protocol. KASHYK: It seems you violated it when you rescued these telepaths. JANEWAY: Well, let's just say I usually go with my instincts and sort it out later at the Board of Inquiry. Those Admirals and I were on a first name basis, you know. You're risking a lot, too. Why?"

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

There is absolutely no way Picard would have done this. When these two merged into a single entity, for all intents and purposes Tuvok and Neelix were dead. And they didn't have any more inherent right to existing than Tuvix did. By reversing the process, Janeway outright murdered him. Picard absolutely would NEVER have done so. Although it is worth noting that TNG crew don't have clean hands. Riker and Pulasci both straight up murdered their own clones when they found out that their DNA had been stolen by that society that was suffering from a shrinking gene pool. Destroying the samples was one thing - that's their DNA so it's their property - but destroying the actual clones was grotesque and both Riker and Pulaski straight up committed murder. As Odo said in one episode of DS9 when a man cloned himself and then killed the clone in order to take his own death: "killing your own clone is still murder".

[@CharlieJoelParaskos]

I agree with your morals... however: The episode did take the time to address the emotions going through everyone, including the captain. I believe this is worth considering. If you had the opportunity to revive 2 people you hold very dear who had died 2 weeks prior and in exchange you had to execute a man you had only known for 2 weeks, would you do it?

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

@@CharlieJoelParaskos No. That isn't even a difficult decision.

[@CharlieJoelParaskos]

@@seraphinaaizen6278 Even while going through the process of grief? You wouldn't even think about it? Because I would.

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

@@CharlieJoelParaskos No, because I'm not convinced there are any circumstances that could convince me to kill an innocent person for no other reason than selfishness. Perhaps I might be willing to sacrifice a person to save two of my friends who were still alive; if I was put in the position where I had to make the choice of one dying or the other. But not if my friends were already dead. The worst thing that can happen to them has already happened. Our duty should be to the living.

[@CharlieJoelParaskos]

@@seraphinaaizen6278 That is a very noble sentiment and I agree with it while in my right mind. I remember being grief-stricken though and I believe in that state I would be willing to do anything for another chance to save someone I care about that deeply even though I would regret it afterwards. While I don't agree with it, I can empathise with the writers of the show and the decision that Janeway ultimately made

[@Excalibur01]

They really could have written the episode better where Tuvix couldn't survive being fused together for long

[@craigs5347]

Or he could have decided to sacrifice himself in the end so that two lives could continue at the cost of his one life. Would have been a noble death and a nice callback to Spock.

[@Sensorium19]

Having him not be able to survive would have been an easy out for the moral dilemma. Having him make the choice himself would have been a much better way of resolving the episode.

[@dragonknightleader1]

@@craigs5347 And it was set up in that episode! Remember when Kes was crying about wanting Neelix back (IDK but whatever)? He could have been guilt-tripped into sacrificing himself for Kes's sake.

[@craigs5347]

@@dragonknightleader1 Exactly! It would have been an incredibly powerful and heroic act. Missed opportunity for sure.

[@shauljonah6955]

Better logic because a plant was involved.

[@stevieb1667]

I miss TNG Picard. Patrick Stewart at the peak of his powers throughout its run. Less said about the current Picard the better

[@HerbertZihlmann]

I think this episode was one of the reasons why I lost interest to Voyager.

[@TentaclePentacle]

janeway is always a bit murderous. The only moral person on that ship is the ship's doctor with is the computer. When voyager got back to earth every single one of them should have been trialed for murder. But then again janeway probably altered the logs.

[@DaraGaming42]

Tom not standing up for him hurt the most imo

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Even so, the EMH still followed her orders and stepped aside. Sure, he protested, but he still didn't take any action to stop her.

[@matthewjones2095]

@@BioGoji-zm5ph his program said do no harm what could he do

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

@@matthewjones2095 Restrain her in a non-violent manner?

[@jondonnelly4831]

@@BioGoji-zm5ph Computer end program.

[@Admiral8Q]

Wow! This is a powerful edit. Well done.

[@fazyt86]

This was an editing Masterpiece! Best editing I've seen on KZbin

[@FurryEskimo]

What happened to him was super immoral, by the logic their universe and federation.

[@nataliamontelongo2781]

janeway's moral sense was quite inconsistent throughout the show, but her situation was extraordinary. I don't think she was the same after that. There's an episode where she secludes herself because of the weight of all of her decisions. She couldn't cope and blame herself for everything ( I agree she was responsible for some of them).

[@oddish4352]

Writers who don't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant can't really be expected to give the captain a consistent moral sense, can they?

[@Natural11001001]

I love how the Voyager crew all look at Tuvix like he's a total asshole as he runs around the bridge pleading for his life. Then the security guard leers at him as he gets escorted away. The Voyager series should have ended with Janeway's prison sentence.

[@teroknor1377]

I think people get lost in the idea that Tuvix died or that Tuvok/Neelix died. They're all still alive, only they've merged their minds and bodies together. Let's take a look at this from the frame of reference of Locutus. Locutus was alive and made up of the elements of the Borg and Picard. Locutus was an individual among the Borg collective, with all the matter, memories, and self-awareness that Picard had. Picard did not have a choice to merge with the Borg, just as Tuvok and Neelix did not have a choice when merging with one another. Separating them out into their individual components may have been resisted by the combined creature in both cases, but there is no reason to think that the being that was made during the combination was destroyed when separating the two elements from one another. TOS did a better job of this by having the exact same scenario in reverse, where Kirk was separated into two beings because of a transporter accident, neither of which could function or survive without the other element. It was a good look into humanity and the nature of good and evil, while Tuvix was just about a combined creature being forced to have an operation to go back to two people. If people really want a moral "No no" in Star Trek, you have Riker and Pulaski murdering their clones without shedding a tear. Meanwhile, we see in DS9 that murdering your own clone is a crime (at least on Bajor). I don't hear anybody complaining about that one.

[@NitpickingNerd]

Those clones were not 'born' yet so its not the same as killing a fully concious sentient being . Although still questionable because of how close they apparently were to being hatched . I guess it depends on how active their brains were at that point . Which Riker never bothered to check so I do blame him for that

[@teroknor1377]

@@NitpickingNerd If the topic is morality, we've run into a great many historical problems with people defining what is or is not human enough so that they can be assured the convenience of murder. The clones who ran the colony certainly felt that it was murder, and while they don't get any moral points for knocking out Riker and Pulaski and stealing some of their bits, killing an innocent being that has done nothing to you because of another's crimes is a pretty ugly look.

[@teroknor1377]

@Route 69 I'll respectfully ask you to rewatch Star Trek again, my friend, because you are off in a number of areas. I'm going to discount anything in STP (given the miriad contradictions in that terrible show) and stick with what we see in TNG/VOY and the movies. First off, Picard was added to the collective in the Season 3 Finale. Hugh came on board the Enterprise-D near the end of season 5. Keep in mind that the fact that Hugh recognized Picard as Locutus was a part of that episode, so the Borg did not learn it from that experience (nor is there any evidence to support the idea that the Borg kept anything of Hugh or his cube once they removed it from the hive mind). Secondly, Locutus referred to himself as "I", something that was made quite the big deal of in "The Best of Both Worlds". Locutus was an individual within the hive mind, meant to be an equal to the Borg Queen. He was still part of a hive mind, but with autonomy and authority.

[@NathanieI87]

STP Picard: I need to find someone who has good rhetorical skills to prove that saving this man's life is important. I think I'll try to contact my ex work collegue who is an alcoholic, a smoker and calls me Jayyy Ellll...maybe I'll ask a Romulan Boy/Assassin who simply kills anybody who doesn't share my opinion.

[@bigfootfound5301]

BINGO! And I'll take the Lord of the Rings refugee over the sickening wreck that is "Raffi." Alas, neither are Trek.

[@davidanderson5310]

It seems to me that Janeway had a decision to make, and afterwards, there was going to be one sentient being or there were going to be two. It's arguably a temporal chauvinism to prefer the one who's alive right now, to the two who could be alive. Also, part of the reason that death is bad is that it hurts the people who miss the dead person. Tuvok and Neelix had connections with others that Tuvix didn't have. We can argue that all human life should have equal worth, but in practice the death of Kobe Bryant affected a lot more people than the death of someone like me.

[@oddish4352]

Nicely put together.

[@TheBoyWhoWonders]

one of your best videos yet!

[@joshuaewalker]

What if both Tuvok and Neelix came back with completely intact memories of being Tuvix and still believed they shouldn't have been separated? And what if they wanted Janeway tried for murder? What if they chose to leave Voyager after that? Then Janeway will have still lost them both and not even have a Tuvix in their place. What if the whole thing just didn't work and they couldn't get Tuvok and Neelix back at all and lost Tuvix as well? This was always one of my least favorite episodes because Captain Janeway straight up commits murder. You can have all the moral arguments you want about whether murder can be justified (like killing Hitler as a baby) but you can't argue that she _didn't_ commit murder. That's indisputable.

[@oddish4352]

I think it would have been 🤬ing hilarious if Tuvok, upon being restored, had ordered the two security guards to place Janeway under arrest for the murder of Lt. Tuvix, and escort her to the brig.

[@joshuaewalker]

@@oddish4352 That would actually be peak Tuvok. Pure logic. Lol we need a fan edit that makes it look like that's how that scene played out.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

@@oddish4352 That's consistent with Vulcan character. Like when Pine saved Quinto, who then ratted him out.

[@Matthewwithers33]

1. The writers did their job and created a moral delima that everyone is still talking about. 2. Picard and janeway were in 2 different situations. Picard had starfleet to contact amd seek guidance if needed. Janeway was trying to get back home and needed to make the decision amd she chose tuvok and neelix over tuvix

[@MrCrystalm8]

having the main character/starfleet captain commit murder is not the writers doing their job lol

[@SirMarshalHaig]

And then Janeway hunted the Equinox down for commiting murder for the sake of getting home.

[@elizabethbellauthor]

This is a brilliant mashup! Thank you!

[@blusafe1]

This clip undermines Janeway's pain and agony. Janeway NEVER forgot her principles, but she was torn between bringing back her two good friends and a relative stranger. Voyager was stranded far from home while Enterprise was a well-equipped flagship in friendly space. It's not a function of "arithmetic," it's a matter of choosing between a lifelong, loyal, strong friend (Tuvok), Neelix; vs. Tuvix. Bring back two friends and kill a stranger - or let this dude live while your friends go to oblivion?

[@whitworth5s248]

Everyone: "What they did to Tuvix was a murder and an outrage!" Me: _Quietly mourns alone for Linnus Paris and Andrew Kim_

[@koshi6505]

Thanks to time travel, I'm not sure if that was a very late or a very early abortion.

[@axenledgie1423]

This is the only time I remember Ayala being referenced by name. It should've been more often, I would've liked to have seen him more.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Look what happens to someone to mention his name.

[@johndamenillusionist4342]

There is no debate. Tuvix was created by a technology based accident, not some form of life evolution. He is the result of two lives accidentally being blended into one...creating an unnatural state for the two lives involved. Tuvix' natural state is to exist as the two separate lifeforms he started as (Tuvok and Neelix). He wasn't killed, he is just back to his natural state. He's not dead, because Tuvok and Neelix are not dead.

[@scockery]

Reminds me of the Torres split in two episode. What if the Klingon one hadn't died, but the human B'ellana was still dying. Who would Janeway save? Technically human Torres would need Klingon Torres' dna to live, but Klingon Torres would not need her human half's DNA. Yet if somehow the requirements of saving human B'elanna meant killing Klingon Torres to recreate the original B'elanna? Hmmm.... Also, that episodes was stupid because if the Vidiians could create whole people from extracting DNA, they could create enough organ donors they would not need to abduct/harvest any aliens. Instead they'd have some sort of Clonus Horror thing going on.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

But wasn't B'elana BORN half-Human/Half-Klingon?

[@PASTRAMIKick]

They should've killed Neelix, that's it.

[@david.stachon]

Isn't it "murder" every time you transport? Literally, pulling you apart down to the atomic level, then putting you back together again.

[@Sensorium19]

It's inconsistently portrayed in my opinion. Technically I think your description should be correct, but there is an episode where Lt. Barclay is conscious inside the matter stream so he can demonstrate there are interdimensional lifeforms around.

[@garrettdark5668]

Yes it is. Search for CGP Grey's video on KZbin called "Trouble with Transporters" which thoroughly and enjoyably explains why in detail, and even references Tuvix as evidence that transporters are a "murder" device (discrepancy of amount of matter when 2 people become 1, and vice versa).

[@ultimatejager4058]

They said several times in the serieses the transporter is extremely safe. We don't know how it actually works, so we have to assume the tecnology involved ensures teleportation without killing the users

[@MilesTraveler]

That gets into harder questions like "Why am I concious?" "Why this body and not another?" "If this exact pattern comes together again in 10 billion years will it be me?" "What determines that I am me and not someone else?" Among many other that will send you into an existential crisis as you search for your "soul" so to speak.

[@r0bw00d]

L-Word no, because "Star Trek" establishes that the person on the other end is the same one who started. The show, unfortunately, is restricted to the confines of scientific knowledge during the time of its production and people, rather than accepting that the shows are products of their time, think they're being clever whenever they point out a mistake or flaw. The fact of the matter is that the technology works the way they say it does, the scientific explanation for how it works is window dressing to give viewers the idea and sense of possibility, and that the technology itself isn't important enough to be super-de-duper accurate with because that's no the focus of the shows.

[@henrytownshed5304]

You deserve more views. I love the cut.

[@johnhannibalsmith1607]

"We have learned to detect the seeds of criminal behavior." That sounds worse than capital punishment.

[@Verse_Jumper]

Yeaaaah that was definitely an eyebrow raiser

[@ptonpc]

It's just a progression of what we can do now. Certain behaviors or environments make it more likely that certain types of criminals will be created. At present we know there are certain behavioral markers and brain structures that mean a child is more likely to be a sociopath for instance. In the good Trek (Pre STD and STP eras) that child could be identified and taught how to channel their urges etc into more productive behaviours, instead of, say, cutting people's heads off and wearing them as hats. Since poverty, hunger etc are pretty much things of the past, there is unlikely to be the same environment that would encourage criminal behaviours (You're not hungry or poor, you're less likely to go need to steal or or murder for money).

[@mysteriiis]

We're already able, shakily, to read the signs of Anti-Social Personality Disorder/Sociopathy in an individual. x-thousands of years in the future; they'd have it down to a science.

[@Rohnon]

Picard and TNG is the ideals of the Starfleet and the optimism and hope for a better futute. Janeway in Voy is what you must do if you are faced with incredibly hard decisions. She tries to stand up to starfleets ideal and she is the moral compass of the crew. And that is why I loved that episode, it made her do a horrible decision where no matter what the outcome would've been bad

[@aperioculus1988]

It's sort of the same situation of Kira in the episode "Sanctuary". There is no good outcome and the audience are left questioning the morals of it all.

[@Rohnon]

@Route 69 I can see your point. But they are in extremely dangerous terretory and she lost 2 extremely valuable crewmembers. While they are allready undermanned and are constantly looking crew. While Tuvix is a competent and liked member of the crew, he could not fill the rolles of two important crewmembers at the same time

[@ethanbarker9811]

Some thoughts because I kind of love the tuvix episode: - Janeway is a great character and really well acted but of course she suffers from inconsistency. In some episodes she acts in ways that suggest she would never sacrifice Tuvix, but then other times she’s a lot more willing to compromise. - People saying “Clone him with the transporter” or some variant, that’s kind of missing the point. In Star Trek you have to accept the parameters of the situation as they’re given in the episode. The goal is to tell good stories not be fully consistent with the minutia of technology. The core of this episode is that they have to choose between Tuvix or Tuvok and Neelix, and there shouldn’t have to be technobabble in the script to explain why every possible solution doesn’t work in this case. - ‘Tuvix’ is a good episode to me because of how chilling Janeway’s choice are the end is. To be fair, Picard’s stories very often end with some kind of convenient solution, an easy answer to a complex dilemma. Very often they manage to save everyone or find some loophole. I like Tuvix because it’s the rare Star Trek episode that avoids any kind of a comfortable resolution. No solution presents itself and the crew has to live with a brutal reality. It still could have been written better - maybe without Tuvix begging for his life, or a scene where Janeway mourns for him a little more. But overall, what could Picard have really done here? Would he just let, say, Worf and Riker stay dead if they got fused in a transporter and tell their families that he refuses to change them back? High minded Rhetoric is fine, but it’s not like Janeway doesn’t value life or anything, she just saw there was no less ugly alternative

[@shionkreth7536]

I agree with your outlook.

[@xdproductions3087]

“Tuvix” still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would like to have seen an ending scene where both Neelix and Tuvok say they remember being Tuvix and regret Janeway’s choice. Then Janeway looks out her ready room window with a sullen look, considering the ramifications of her choice. Fade to credits...

[@mysteriiis]

This is the episode's real problem. There is no moral accountability. The show-runners proved far too cowardly to consider the consequences of their own story.

[@sokoTV2]

I wish the Tuvix was handled differently. Maybe Voyager wasn't the right setting to try this concept out on. If this happened on TNG, let's say Wesley and Worf fuse to become Worfley, The crew would be split on what to do, Beverly would want them separated at all costs to save Wesley. Picard would want to honor Worfley's newfound life, but he would feel for Beverly who basically lost her son, and no amount of saying that "Wesley is Worfley" would console her. There would be an argument made by Beverly that Worfley isn't the true form of these two entities, and that it took Worf and Wesley's lives without their consent, and killing Worfley would be able to save them. Picard would say that it isn't their place to decide what the true form of an entity is. The end result would have to be the separation of Worfley because of contracts and whatever, so you could have Beverly make a heartfelt request to Worfley that she wants her son back and that he will never be able to replace Wesley, and maybe have Alexander be scared of Worfley. It wouldn't feel like a gross self sacrifice like Data's in that bad movie, but he will decide to give his life to restore Worf and Wesley. As much as I hate it, only self-sacrifice could make the end result of this plot somewhat ethical.

[@michaeldeboer9940]

If it were say Riker and Worf that were merged, I do believe Picard would think differently. An accident merged them, two of his friends, two of his officers, and he’s going to have to send letters to their families that they have ceased to exist. He has an obligation to his crew, just as Janeway did, to bring them home. Maybe Picard wouldn’t be so harsh as Janeway, trying to find another way, to preserve Rorf, but to paint Janeway as a monster when this is not an easy decision to make I find unfair. But VOY had balls in that sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if TNG had separated Rorf by accident again or have his molecular structure fall apart so they are forced to separate him, much like Lal died at the end of “The Offspring”. Saving Picard from having to make a decision. Janeway didn’t have that luxury.

[@svsguru2000]

And yet, starfleet made Janeway an Admiral upon her return. When intstead she should have been sent to a prison colony.

[@russellarcher5181]

according to the Psycho Janeway lore; she reprogrammed Starfleet database so that every promotion meant for Picard was processed into her file. Which is why she is in the top three most powerful individuals of Starfleet, in Star Trek Nemesis movie

[@SorakuFett]

Tbf, it was after the sorrowful end of the Dominion War. Everyone feels bad, a bunch of people died and then, suddenly, here comes the big mythical lost ship Voyager! And they bring news that the Borg are dead! The propaganda machine spins to life, handing out commendations and promotions, sweeping any and all crimes right under the rug for the sake of public morale.

[@Sensorium19]

@@SorakuFett That is the most sensible thing I have read in a while.

[@Saddler1944]

I keep seeing this comment made over and over. Look at Starfleet Admiral's murder is how you get put on the promotion list. Then after that you can start to do some real evil shit.

[@matthewjones2095]

@@SorakuFett there a reason star fleet command is in America

[@PaulvonOberstein]

This reminds me of when the Doctor decided to hold that hologram of Crell Moset responsible for the crimes committed by the guy he patterned the hologram after.

[@handsomebrick]

"You have had all that money can give you, but that wasn't enough. You became a thrill-seeker, with an overinflated ego. This thrill-seeking became the one great thing in your life, piling one thrill on another until, with every increase in intensity, you became much like the drug addict, with his continual increases of dosage, until... a climax. A murder. To kill, for the love of killing. To kill for a thrill."

[@Govadina]

Tuvix was a disease and splitting him up was the cure.

[@austinarellano1657]

@@null643 I totally agree with you. But I honestly think there wasn't a true right answer. I think it was a classic morale conflict where no matter what you do, it could be twisted and considered wrong . I think Janeway had the most obstacles like this.

[@Govadina]

@Route 69 NO U. Tuvok and nelix, unlike tuvix were born and lived through a whole life, have/had families (try explaining this mess to tuvok's wife) they are actual people, not a random convergence of technologies. In the magical world of star trek, where magical transporter' accidents just happen and they can magically be reversed within a span of an episode, tuvok and nelix were never dead, if they were never dead they must be restored to their normal self.

[@deleteTF]

@@null643 Data was never meant to be, he is artificial and not a natural born living being, but he still has rights. Tuvix living on doesn't mean he would have more rights than Neelix and Tuvok, it would mean that he would have equal rights, since he is a sentient individual.

[@0verkill161]

And thus, Psycho Janeway was born.

[@TentaclePentacle]

you mean psycho janeway was revealed, again.

[@greengreeneya2102]

Janeway saved Tuvok and Neelix. Soo nope she is not psyco.

[@matthewjones2095]

@@greengreeneya2102 k femanist

[@greengreeneya2102]

@@matthewjones2095 You are chovinist.

[@matthewjones2095]

@@greengreeneya2102 how am i a chovnist and if i am your a man hater did daddy not love you enough

[@WolfA4]

This could have been avoided had Janeway made the correct decision to throw Neelix out of an airlock the moment they met him.

[@cosmicphoenix162]

Nope! Tuvix is attempting to commit double homicide by refusing to submit himself to the medical process that would “SAVE” the life’s of Tuvok and Nilix. Therefore Tuvix forfeits all his rights as a sentient being, and Janeway was well within her jurisdiction to make the decision herself! Janeway SAVED!!!! 2 life’s Tuvok and Nilix.

[@KM-dk5gn]

Yes, that was the one episode that I really had a problem with on Voyager. I personally, would have considered Tuvok and Neelix to have died in the line of duty and Tuvix to be born. It was a crappy thing that happened to the two of them but murdering their offspring to bring them back is very unethical imo and very un-federation-like.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

It is like killing a child to save the parents because the child was not planned.

[@Siledas]

I'm still not sure why they decided to write Janeway into that episode as the reason why Tuvix had to die. Like, why not make it Tuvix' decision? "I've come to realise that, while I like the individual that I am, that many people on board care about the people I once was, and my decision to remain as I am effectively robs everyone else of the relationships they'd made with my former selves. As such, I've decided to blah blah blah..." Now you can neatly wrap up the episode, and Janeway doesn't look like a complete psychopath (not just because she forces Tuvix to kill himself, but because she resurrects FUCKING NEELIX of all people).

[@tmk6022]

Because that would be way too convenient. It's about the ethical decision Janeway had to make, and it's supposed to make you think about it

[@LordZontar]

@@tmk6022 Except there was only one ethical decision for Janeway to make: to leave Tuvix to his own existence and his own choices. Instead, she made the unethical choice.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

It would be interesting to know what Starfleet would say about the Tuvix report. And about almost every report Voyager made.

[@captaineveryman6589]

Thank you, this is so true and good, well done!

[@BigGator5]

And people wonder why VOY was so hated (still better than STD and Star TP, but still pretty awful).

[@falafeldurum2095]

VOY had very good episodes, but rather few compared to TNG. Tuvix was a pretty bad episode.

[@david.stachon]

VOY had different challenges being trapped in the Delta Q. I love that they explored this.

[@austinarellano1657]

Voyager is by far the most balanced Trek show . Janeway had the most difficult morale decisions and didnt have the same comfort as Picard or Sisko . She also had the best relationships with each member of her crew . Voyager also had the best balance between character growth and plot , in DS9 the plots were subpar at best and most character arc or growth were brutally repetitive . I put Voyager on the same tier as TNG . And I think it's much better than DS9 or Enterprise.

[@ClemensLode]

Didn't Voyager play in the mirror universe?

[@austinarellano1657]

@Route 69 I respectfully disagree . This was a morale conflict with no true objectively right answer . We could go back and forth all day , and neither of us would be right. I think that's why my belief opposes yours. The fact it's such a divisive morale conflict just shows how excellent Voyager writing was and shows that sometimes you just need to follow your heart . Theres times in life where there is no right answer and I think those moment have everlasting effects on us , and I feel like Tuvix did just that to the Voyager crew , he made them question their own morality .

[@aurex8937]

This was a *great* video. Great comparison between a good captain and a bipolar sociopath. I've always thought part of the issue with Tuvix and its epilogue was that the screenwriters played it as very emotional, thinking people would be torn between the (sometimes eerie and unlikable) Tuvix's right to exist and the attachment to Neelix and Tuvok. They might have done it differently: they might have decided to "keep" Tuvix for two, maybe three episodes, perhaps giving us time to like him more as a character. Then, they could have made Tuvix's feelings for Kes overpower his desire to live - he would then reprogram the doctor in order to be split into two beings so Kes could be with Neelix again. A gesture of pure selfishness that could have validated a morally sound decision. But no, they had to portrait the whole crew as either authoritarian nutjobs or psychopaths: tell me you see no anger in Janeway when Tuvix refuses to be erased from existence. I understand she wants Tuvok back - but the fact he was your friend doesn't invalidate Tuvix's right to exist. He has done no harm and he's a fully realized lifeform, after all. The fact he's taken away to his execution in a very Nazi/Soviet kind of way made it even more upsetting. At that point Janeway and the crew shouldn't be able to lecture anyone about the Federation's principles and moral grandstanding: the crew of the Equinox did something similar on a larger scale, yet Janeway let the Equinox crew die aside from five of them - all while acting like she was justice incarnate and Ransom's actions were morally unjustifiable. Bad writing if you ask me... mostly, anyway!

[@preferredpronoun3689]

What the showrunners could have done is indeed keep the character for a few episodes having Tuvix explore his existence and if he really should exist at the expense of his progenitors. Ultimately the answers should have been No. #Janewaydidnothingwrong

[@johnnysizemore5797]

Now, to play a little "Devil's Advocate" for Janeway here, she was kinda stuck in a Catch-22 situation with Tuvix: Her duty as a Captain requires her to do everything in her power to safeguard & protect the lives of her crew while her duty to The Federation laws & Code dictates she respect Tuvix's wishes. Either choice meant they were losing at least a crewman(Tuvok or Tuvix) and killing one of them for the other. At that point, Janeway made a choice that she thought she could live with. As for the Rest Not protesting? I got no clue....

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

They all secretly hated Tuvix?

[@johnnysizemore5797]

@@BioGoji-zm5ph possiblly, at least on Harry Kim's part. Tuvix was a constant reminder that it might've been his fault they "lost" Tuvok in the transporter. Harry(probably still feeling guilty even after discovering it was the plants' doing) could've swayed the rest of the Senior Bridge crew to let Janeway make the call, knowing full well she'd choose to separate 'em, thereby clearing Harry of both Guilt&wrongdoing . The episode itself is a facinating study of "Mob mentality" and the burdens of Command imho.....

[@RobertWF42]

Imagine if a whole away team of the senior officers got fused together by the transporter. Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Paris, Torres, ... Now **that** would have been an interesting episode. I think it'd be like that comedy movie from the 80s "All of Me". Their shared body would be lurching down corridors, talking to themselves incessantly, getting in fights & slapping themselves, smooching on each other... :-)

[@TweiLimLou]

difference tuvok's and neelix's lives were terminated and can be reversed cannot compare to kill 1 or kill 1000 , not killed yet

[@darthroden]

I'm sure that Tuvox's family was grateful to still have their father and husband back. He didn't ask to be joined like that, nobody gave him that choice. His rights as an individual are just as important, if not greater since he did not consent. Oh and they got Neelix back too.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

Very few people consent to die. It just happens, like with Tuvok and Neelix.

[@derek96720]

@@Briellen_Mellott they didn't die. They were grafted together at the molecular level, both trapped in the same body.

[@simoncarson4087]

I don't see why everyone thinks Janeway is dick, the whole idea this episode feels like a trolley situation. Kill one to save two sounds rational

[@ironuckles]

This is why these shows are so great. You may not agree with their decisions, but here we are, years later, still debating if it was the right decision or not.

[@sterlingmoffett2008]

Just use their old patterns to replicate them and keep tuvix

[@scockery]

@Route 69 Based on the various bullcrap transporter stories they've made, they could duplicate anyone, memories intact. They would be exact copies not clones. Let's remember that Ensign Kim and Naomi Wildman are copies from another timeline! Their counterparts died!

[@skyserf]

Route 69 Thomas Riker had William T. Riker’s memories up till the point of duplication.

[@Slaterybooker]

Tuvix was created by spores murder-raping Neelix and Tuvok. Why is Tuvix more important than then the two men that were cruelly turned into one person?

[@Slaterybooker]

@NumptyMagnet Sadly this isn't the first time I have heard it.

[@preferredpronoun3689]

The show should probably have had Janeway discuss with Tuvix at length his existence is unjustifiable due to his conception. But they all acted a bit rash didn't they. #Janewaydidnothingwrong

[@TheRealNormanBates]

3:40 “the ends do not justify the means” THE MOST TOYS would like a word...

[@mmmghool]

The episode where Janeway saves her crew from being globbed together