"Empire of Death" is messy - Doctor Who review

[@Condor-gb1xp]

Honestly, the most unforgivable part of this episode is them canonizing the memory Tardis, but not releasing Tales of the Tardis worldwide

[@DigiRangerScott]

GOOD POINT

[@karapluemer2531]

I’ve been able to watch it on KZbin

[@DigiRangerScott]

@@karapluemer2531 Congratulations on missing the point

[@ealadubh4800]

Especially if you're trying to figure out who Mrs Flood is (if I'm right).

[@IllisiaAdams]

Ye, I thought that canonising it was cool, but then I was like... "But no one can watch it unless they have access to iPlayer... Greeeeat..."

[@ChristyAbbey]

I'm someone who gave up a child. And she did find me and her mother. I thanked her family for taking a responsibility I couldn't.

[@IllisiaAdams]

/hugs

[@lays5277]

Re: your point about how the doctor seems to be "running away". As someone who has gone through a quite extensive mental health journey, I clocked that this doctor wasn't "healthy" at all by around episode 4 as he actually reminds me of how I was when I first started therapy. Overly cheerful and prone to infodumping about his past, constantly emotional, crying all the time because he spent so long holding it in and now _he can't turn it off anymore._ it's a bit healthier than he used to be, yeah, but now it's just hurting him in a slightly different way, and the second something triggers him he's relapsing into old habits. I find this to be very realistic! Progress is not linear; the fact that he changed at all is good, anything that's not stagnant or backwards is good, but he didn't flip a switch and become better. I really relate to that.

[@bectoons]

He also ran away when Rogue's fake proposal got a bit too real. And between saying "I loved you" to Mel and not saying it to Ruby, he's had to kill Sutekh. But I really like your explanation - it rings true, thank you.

[@erindonovan7423]

On Ruby saying 'I love you' and the Doctor just smiling and turning away: I read Ruby's 'I love you' as also saying 'if you say the word, I'll go with you' - and that the Doctor heard that, and choose to let her go.

[@toddashi]

Okay, I hadn't thought of that, and I like that take, thanks.

[@velaethia6]

Oh yeah the doctor HAD gotten more lovey dovey so I was curious why he didn't say I love you too. But that would make that make sense.

[@Aristhrottlesharkcock]

Reaching

[@AirWrites]

- Why didn't they just go to 2046 right at the start of the series? - Why did it actually snow? - Why bother pointing at the sign? Nuns didn't see her so no one would know she was naming her - What happened to Sutekh when the TARDIS was split? - What happened to the memory TARDIS? - 14 and Donna must have been turned to dust, wonder what he thought of that lol - Sutekh was mystified by this random woman even though he could see ALL of time and space. Why couldn't he see 2046 when the mum took the DNA test? Surely he could find out who she was - If the Toymaker was outside the universe until WBY with the Salt, when did he ever have chance to 'play a game' with Sutekh? He didn't want to go up against the one who waits, who “was there in the dark”, but Sutekh wasn't in the dark, he was on the TARDIS lol Episode just felt rushed and empty when you stand back and look at it. Dunno what RTD was thinking lol

[@robo3007]

- If Sutekh was attached to the Tardis this whole time, what happened to him all those times the TARDIS blew up? - What happened to Sutekh when the TARDIS's dimensionality was removed in Father's Day, or when it was shrunk down in Flatline? - If Sutekh killed everyone in the universe because he managed to leave a Susan Triad on every planet, does that mean that the Doctor has already landed everywhere there is to land? Can he never encounter a new planet again for the entire future of the show? - Why did the Doctor have to visit the "Kind Woman" to get metal when the Memory TARDIS was already full of metal trinkets? Ruby was even wearing earrings and had a jacket with big metal buttons on, he could have used one of those. - Why wasn't Davina McCall able to find any record of Ruby's mother? - Why did Ruby not try to track down her mother after Roger Ap Gwilliam took DNA samples of everyone in 73 Yards? - Why was her mother wearing a medieval style cloak when she abandoned Ruby? - Why did Maestro say that she could feel something very powerful inside Ruby? - If there was nothing special about Ruby, why did everyone in 73 Yards look back at her before running away? - Why was Roger ap Gwilliam said to be safe because he was at a fixed point in time? He said it was because the Doctor had previously visited him but that makes no sense because he had apparently visited everywhere where Susan Triad appeared. - Why did Sutekh die when exposed to the Time Vortex when it was implied in Pyramids of Mars that he would have been able to travel through it safely if the Doctor hadn't intervened? - Why did bringing death to the God of Death magically make everyone come alive again? - Why did killing Sutekh make the Vlinx come back when he was never technically alive in the first place? What happened to all the other robots in the universe like K9?

[@infinitemonkeytheorem4327]

With why didn't we go to 2046 at the start question I think a reasonable answer to do that is the doctor didn't think of it and I find that beleivable

[@BalooSJ]

@@robo3007 The metal thing was explained inside the episode, at least. Everything in the Memory Tardis was just memory made manifest, and the Doctor needed some *actual* metal. I mean, you'd think they could have found some somewhere else (e.g. all the stuff still seemed to be around in 2046), but at least that was explained.

[@velaethia6]

No idea. It def needed a third episode to round up but. Yeah the pointing at the sign was weird. Snow is still mysterious. I imagine Sutekh only on one of the tardis but if they ever want to bring him back they can say he was on the second one. 14 and Donna turned to dust most likely but so did everyone else. I think because she was made so important by time travelers caring so much about her that only Ruby could've connected them together and Suhtek couldn't figure it out himself. But that's not clear if so. What DID happen to memory tardis? did it just disperse? I imagine Suhtek while connected to the tardis is connected not just to the outside box but to the time vortex itself. And thus that's where they could've played the game. Suhtek's ability to turn things to dust is similiar to Bad Wolf's ability to do the same. I was hoping that when the doctor proclaimed himself the god of life some deaths that were NOT done by Suhtek would be undone like the genocide of the timelords and the flux.

[@velaethia6]

@@robo3007I think Sutekh was living in the time vortex but staying attached to the tardis. I don't think anything bad happening to the tardis would permanently damage him if the tardis was restored. I'd be more concerned about when the time vortex got vored by Rose Tyler. He left a susan triad on every place the doctor has been. While that's not every planet. it was enough to create shockwaves throughout time and space. I think the doctor needed a large-ish metal-trinket that wasn't made of memories. Davina couldn't find her because she was being obscured. Same reason her face couldn't be seen in the memory. Ruby likely didn't consider it because she wouldn't want her bio-mom to run away from her like her adopted mom did. The cloak was either A: Because she didn't want her face to be seen. Or B: She wasn't and it was part of her perception being obsuscated. I think Ruby is special but not because of her mom or being something other then human. I also think Ruby just has a very powerful song/feeling deep in her. Everyone in 73 yards reacted to her that way because she was in her own pocket timeline. That universe literally revolved around her. No idea what the doctor meant bout that tbph. Are we sure Suhtek is even dead? The doctor explained. If you kill death the result is life. But if you want a less poetic explanation, it's because Sutekh is a paracasual entity hence how he can kill everything throughout time and still exist. But if you get rid of him anything he did should be undone. With vague remnants. The Vlinx might not be alive by your definition but must be alive by the doctor who universe's definition.

[@thegabrielhyde]

I think the biggest problem with this finale was that it was only two episodes. Story wise, the amount of time between Sutekh being revealed and being defeated felt like watching Utopia and then Last of the Time Lords, with no The Sound of Drums. I think the death wave part of the episode with Sutekh controlling all of reality needed to be a whole episode of its own in order for the resolution to feel impactful/properly earned.

[@klop4228]

I thought similarly, though for me Last of the Time Lords has exactly the same problem. It's too short for the story it's telling. (The seasons need to be longer!)

[@douglaswolfen7820]

Very much this. You're absolutely right

[@kaiatherton]

I actually think they should go back to the OG style of telling every story over several episodes.. DW is getting to busy and there no breathing room in them. 3 episodes pr story. 4 for big ones would be more satisfyng. it would also hep them with budget I think.

[@alim.9801]

That's such a good analogy. Overall i liked the finale, but my biggest criticism is the defeat feeling rushed, which in turn kinda made it feel anticlimactic

[@MidnightChimey]

The thing is, if you have a villain like Sutekh, massively OP with God-like powers and you let them loose, it would feel like you are not really delivering on the stakes you set up if you didn't have him pretty much immediately wreck everything. If there was going to be an extra episode, I would take the bit of the Doctor, Ruby and Mel travelling around the desolated universe, hiding from Sutekh and trying to figure out what they can do about it and make that the focus

[@DanTheElevator]

I think both parts of the finale would have been improved by tightening up the first episode and having it end on the Doctor shouting in grief out the door of the memory TARDIS. That would have raised the stakes significantly and wouldn't have hinged the whole episode on what was an underwhelming anagram twist. The second episode should have opened with Sutekh saying there's still someone he wants to track down, cut to the Doctor on the dying planet. Then the second episode could have had more breathing room which it dearly needed because it felt so truncated. I'm fine with killing Sutekh undoing all the damage because the whole season has been hammering how it's working on fairy tale logic, and that's some straight up fairy tale logic.

[@TheRodentMastermind]

I would have been more fine with killing Sutekh undoing all the damage, if they hadn't done the same when the dagger drive was turned off in The Meep episode, it kind of killed any kind of stakes in RTD writing.

[@DanTheElevator]

@@TheRodentMastermind I guess I lived with it for so long the first time around that it doesn’t bother me now.

[@TheRodentMastermind]

@@DanTheElevator I feel the issue is it happening twice in a single season. And Why, what is so bad about having London City Council have to fix some roads that it needed to be reversed? I know that the specials are not technically part of the season. But lets be honest the season doesn't work without them. Wild Blue Yonder lets magical thinking into the universe, the Toymaster introduces the Pantheon of Chaos, and the Christmas speical introduces Ruby and shows the incident on Ruby Road that is referenced continually across the whole season and is instrumental in the finale.

[@Jenifer_R_]

@@DanTheElevator Yes, we needed stakes higher than the Doctor standing there, mouth agape in shock.

[@yuvalne]

yep. yep yep yep yep yep. exactly what I'm thinking.

[@Deathlygunn]

Thinking about it - you know what might have worked better for this episode? Keep the idea of Sutekh being obsessed with the mystery of an orphan - but he's not obsessed with finding out who Ruby's mum is, he's obsessed with The Timeless Child and where The Doctor really comes from - not because he cares who The Doctor really is, but because Sutekh knows there's more universe to be conquered that only The Doctor's memories hold the key to - With Sutekh trying to tempt The Doctor into opening the fobwatch throughout the episode. And then at the end of the episode have The Doctor say he doesn't care about where he comes from, but he knows the pain of not knowing and gives UNIT the DNA sample to help Ruby track down her birth mother. Sutekh gets a better motivation, The Doctor now has some personal stakes in the story, and the idea Ruby's mum is this special being is less overblown.

[@Hercules_Flexing]

At last. It's time for the real finale. Take us home, Vera.

[@jfsredhead]

it saw online The Doctor was supposed to say "I love you" to Ruby after she leaves the TARDIS but it was felt that Ncuti Gatwa's performance conveyed the message without needing to say it aloud.

[@MajorKerina]

Why on earth did they give did her the line "my real mum"? That was so mean to Carla.

[@bani3134]

YES!! especially with Carla being a black woman it bothered me even more

[@douglaswolfen7820]

I guess they maybe felt like "birth mum" and "biological mum" sounded too clinical?

[@bani3134]

@@douglaswolfen7820 I've seen ppl use 'bio mum' and that felt better to use here to me

[@lcflngn]

Could not agree more.

[@garfar912]

It was deliberate. When Ruby says it, she's just learned they've found her dad, and she blurts it out. It signs to the doctor how much Ruby is coming to terms with, and that's how he knows she has to stay behind.

[@m.stewart8094]

with RTD 1.0 the endings were bolstered by the dynamics between Dr and Rose. Here, we barely got to know Ruby. She hasnt been fully fleshed out the way Rose was. The "I love you" "Goodbye" really didnt hit.

[@carpevinum8645]

... like they needed more episodes or something...

[@HandofOmega]

Yeah, that's why 73 Yards just didn't hit for me like it did others...Imagine if Rose or any other companion's major, defining episode...occurred in their first few eps.

[@ftumschk]

A shame, really, because Millie did such a good job. TBH, she carried the series for me, slightly more so than Ncuti (good as he is).

[@mortdewerewolfe691]

I kind of preferred the dynamic between the Dr & Ruby, but then I cannot stand the Dr ''loving'' Rose. Rose is also a ( very ) stereotyped, Classist & shallow character ( she's a Buffy Clone ) & tbh that character doesn't work in 2024 ( for me she didn't even work in 2005 & I only stated watching Nu Who in earnest after she left ).

[@HandofOmega]

@@mortdewerewolfe691 Both Rose and Ruby remind me of Sam: In the 8th Doctor novels, his first companion is a young blonde London teenager named Samantha; she's the Perfect Companion for him, brave and curious, very positive and progressive in all the right ways (and falls in love with him, natch)! Kinda rubbed some readers the wrong way with how stereotyped she was, and the writers, too, who eventually revealed that (SPOILERS) Sam was *actually* a dark-haired drug/sex addicted runaway. While he was still regenerating, the Doctor's, um, "power" reached out, found someone who'd never be missed, and "rewrote" her into The Perfect Companion he needed at that time! For awhile she started flickering back and forth between herself and "Dark Sam" before a solution was eventually found...Could be interesting to see the show do something like this, but I doubt it ever would (sorry for going on so much, I just love those books, and wish they were discussed more in the fandom).

[@aletcetera9883]

When they dragged Sutekh with the tardis, all I could think of was in National Lampoon’s Vacation when they forget the dog is leashed to the bumper.

[@SarcyBoi41]

RTD said in the behind-the-scenes for this episode that after watching Pyramids of Mars Part 4 as a child, he said to himself "but Sutekh could survive that, what if he secretly grabbed onto the TARDIS as they left?" And I really love that. There's something very wholesome about the fact that he can take the idea he had as a child fan of the show and make it the big season finale so many years later, in his second stint as showrunner no less. That said, I'm still with you on this finale being a mess. All the tension the previous episode built up (which was a LOT) was gone for me the moment I saw Rose and Morris die. Kate dying is unlikely enough, but two minors including Donna's daughter and a kid played by the wonderful Lenny Rush? Nah. I got Last of the Time Lords vibes as soon as that happened. And as you said, it only escalated from there which all felt pretty meaningless. When the stakes are that high, they cease to exist. Morris' pop-out segway guns at the beginning were amazing though. I think I loved that even more than I loved the wheelchair missile in The Star Beast, they're both such UNIT things to have. Obviously giving segway-mounted machine guns to a child is unethical as hell, but unlike the Kate hand-holding thing I gotta give it a pass on Rule of Cool grounds.

[@HandofOmega]

One big disappointment: Remember when the Doctor used the "language of ropes" to escape, and was explaining to Ruby how the universe has magical "new rules" he's learning? That really should have played a major role in how he defeated Sutekh, and yet...Not only does it not, but it never really matters to the season as a whole. The one time I think it does is in 73 Yards, and it's not even the Doc who uses it there!

[@BruhsCookieJar]

He used a rope to kill suetek.. does that count?

[@MydieLy]

He used the language of ropes to keep the memory Tardis together. That was enough of a callback for me^^

[@SleepyHarryZzz]

I saw someone refer to the moment between Kate and Ibrahim the "UNIT Dating Controversy" and imo that's perfect.

[@Condor-gb1xp]

I don’t like how Sutekh seems less powerful than the Toymaker and even Maestro. For someone who was so hyped up, I didn’t think he lived up to it. Like in a metaphysical way. Yeah he destroyed the universe but it took a long time of planting STriads on every planet. Like the Doctor only beat the other two by challenging them to their own game. Imagine he tried putting either of the other two on a leash and dragging them through the vortex, he would’ve been dead

[@HandofOmega]

Yeah, should have been more explanation WHY a simple "molecular rope" can even contain something built up to be THAT powerful, let alone keep him from attacking them for so long...If he'd integrated with the TARDIS as much as said, then why not just merge with it again? Why is the time vortex so lethal now that he's a full on God? I want to resist the pun that he went out like a bitch, but I lack the willpower!😅(also, shades of Palpatine's death: This didn't kill him before, why should we believe it does now?)

[@thehandoflenin]

Sutekh is not dead...his hanging onto the Tardis parked up in Donna Noble's back garden. The whole episode is pointless.

[@HandofOmega]

@@thehandoflenin Damn, forgot all about that! Also, was Sutekh involved in the conception aboard the TARDIS of River Song? Ugh, the more I think about this...

[@HereticReborn]

It was just hard to picture the Toymaker running from Sutekh in fear.

[@Condor-gb1xp]

@@HereticReborn Exactly

[@FourPinesKnitting]

I'm perfectly fine with Ruby's mother being an ordinary human, except... for the SNOW. What was up with the snow? Like, I can understand that people can imbibe a lot of meaning where none is, like Ruby's mum must be "special" if Ruby "has a song inside her" or if her mum is such a mystery. But they made it physically snow. Normal people can't wish snow into existence.

[@joluoto]

The snow was probably materialized by all the Tardis energy built up by the mystery because Sutekh was so obsessed with it. The mystery had power, not the answer kind of deal.

[@katiestevenson7742]

​@joluoto Best answer thankyou. 👏

[@sol848]

A friend of mine made a really good point that the whole bit with Rubys mom could have been solved if the reveal of her identity had been moved up to the end of the first half, and if Suhteks whole galaxy obliteration had been slower. Then have the doctor running around, ripping his hair out trying to figure out why this woman is so important. Because she must be important. Susan was important, and he missed how until it was to late. Then have it all tie back into not only what we've learned about the power of belief this season, but into one of Dr. Who's oldest dogma. That no one is "unimportant". Even the most ordinary person can be as essential to the fate of the world as the doctor is. He and Ruby then use that knowledge to trick Sutek into thinking this nobody is actually a threat to him, and then itbcan proceed from there.

[@benbastianiartmusic1421]

RTD seems to berate the fans for being stuck in the past but relies so heavily on nostalgia when it suits him. Can we PLEASE just have a clean slate with the next showrunner like we did with the 2005 revival? Seeing an old Cyberman head in 'Dalek' and having Sarah Jane return in 'School Reunion' was nice, but having the characters literally watch Pyramids of Mars on a tablet is just pushing it.

[@crunchyfrog63]

I think that will only happen if there is another substantial hiatus. Maybe not quite as long as the last one, but at least lasting several years. And then bringing in completely new blood, just like the initial revival.

[@SarcyBoi41]

I really don't think that Pyramids of Mars footage was used for nostalgic purposes. It's nostalgic for RTD himself, but he knows the majority of viewers are far too young to be nostalgic for Classic Who. It was used to help clarify Sutekh's significance for newer viewers.

[@martabaski8967]

yes, colonel sexy and kate's relationship might be a headache for unit hr, but at least she did not pick from her ever-growing pool of child labourers

[@itisALWAYSR.A.]

lmao love this take 🤣 and it also makes me chuckle how there's been chatter from the behind scenes and interview stuff that kate is a married gay woman, so then she's givin lil hand squeezes to the conventionally-handsome soldier man

[@paulhammond6978]

@@itisALWAYSR.A. Well, given that RTD is the show runner, there's unlikely to be any kind of motivation to scotch fan speculation that Kate is LGBTQ+ if that is going on.

[@alim.9801]

Why do i keep seeing people talking about the child labor like it's something that doesn't absolutely make sense for Kate 😂

[@mzaite]

@@alim.9801 She's the Dr. Who universes Big Boss. Child Soldiers.

[@jonathandear4914]

@@mzaite "Boss, you Killed a child" "Amazing work, thats why youre the best boss!!" what would be the equivilent of that for Kate? xD

[@thatotherted3555]

The way the mystery of Ruby's mother was resolved amounted to "the parents were never DNA tested before"-but the way it was set up was that Ruby had _no DNA matches in any database!_ When you get your DNA tested for ancestry research, the matches you get aren't limited to your parents and siblings: you get hundreds of vaguely distant relatives, and then any second cousins or closer will show up as well. Even without the parents having any recorded relationship, it should've been possible to triangulate pretty closely who their families were, if not find the exact individuals. Having *zero* matches *requires* that Ruby is from another century, at the very least. And anyone who's had such a test and checked the results would know this. An obvious error that's likely to be noticed by hundreds if not thousands of people? Well, this is the same show that claimed pumping *more* oxygen into the atmosphere would make Earth's surface *less* flammable, so 🙄

[@ugolomb]

Here too I would have preferred if some entity had been involved in altering the memory of Ruby's mother. You could keep Ruby's birth parents as ordinary 21st-century British humans, and have a separate explanation for the mystery. One explanation (not mine, but I don't recall now where I've seen it) is that the Tardis interefered -- creating the *illusion* that the mother pointed (when in reality she didn't), creating some sort of perception filter around Ruby's DNA (so that none of her relatives would be found), etc. -- all in order to create a mystery that would distract Sutekh. Other entities with other motives could also be imagined. Of course, that's not what happens in the episode; but it would have been better, IMHO, if it did

[@rowenblue]

Here’s my idea for how the explanation for Ruby’s mother could have worked. The events of The Church on Ruby Road create several precarious paradoxes: first the Goblins steal Ruby as a baby after meeting her as an adult, then the Doctor goes back to 2004 to save her, prompted by her newfound non-existence. It’s safe to assume by the time the Doctor sees Ruby’s mother in 2004, the Tardis is working extra hard to maintain the delicate balance of time. We know Sutekh has an ill-defined ability tied to the Tardis’s perception filter, which allowed him to create Susan Triads. So what if: Sutekh’s usual attempt to create a Susan Triad at this moment was too much for the Tardis to handle and something happened, a glitch of sorts. Instead of creating a Susan Triad, Sutekh’s malfunctioning ability projects instead onto Ruby’s Mother, who happened to be standing exactly 73 yards from the Tardis, and she becomes permanently cloaked in a perception filter. Which is why no one could ever find her. And Sutekh, at the epicentre of this phenomenon, could not perceive her no matter how hard he tried, thus prompting his obsession with her. When Sutehk dies, the filter drops and Ruby can finally find her Mother, who is indeed just an ordinary person who’s always struggled to be noticed and is overjoyed to finally be seen.

[@BearInterrupted]

Is anyone else noticing that Mrs Flood is wearing previous companion outfits. When she shows up to look after Cherry Sunday - the grey top and white collar was previously worn by Clara, the Fluffy white coat at the end of the episode looks like one of Romana's outlandish outfits, She wore a puffer vest and a tan / orangish shirt very reminiscent of Rory ... very intriguing

[@itisALWAYSR.A.]

oooh, good eye, i knew I'd seen her outfit before but couldn't place it

[@HandofOmega]

Huh, well-spotted...Honestly, I was getting Missy vibes from that last outfit, color notwithstanding, but I know the Romana outfit you mean. Hmm...

[@musenightingale]

Maybe she's a fan and she's cosplaying. lol

[@BearInterrupted]

@@musenightingale I'm actually starting to get this vibe that Mrs Flood is Lindy Pepper-Bean ... yep the horrible racist from Dot and Bubble (who has found some redemption along the way). I don't think it is a coincidence that the 2 actresses have similarities and the looks Mrs Flood gives in the 4th wall breaks are very similar to Lindy staring at the Doctor as they left on the boat

[@callumgray8545]

In Kate Stewart's DEFENCE...everyone in HR was dead lol

[@ThePlayTyperGuy]

Ruby’s mother being perfectly normal with no mystery around her sits odd with me precisely bc of how hard it was to find her. There should’ve been workable records. And she was on national TV and specifically stated where she was dropped off and on a very memorable day.

[@VonPatzy]

I was also thrown off by the added detail that she was 15 with a bad stepdad. It felt like they wanted to make her more sympathetic (which is kind of a problem) but the slow walking fancy cloaked pointy lady was in no capacity a 15 year old child. Has anyone seen a 15 year old walk without being a bit of a spastic squirrel? For a 15 year old to give birth and then float like a disciplined runway model hours later makes less sense than any random fan theory.

[@Venemofthe888]

With some DNA Testing it actually can be difficult for some people to even find their biological family. Even in John and Jane Doe cases it can be difficult to find any family if they havent given their DNA or been arrested (which you have to give a DNA Sample in the UK i think). Its not too unbelievable that she wasnt found easily at least to me

[@Elwaves2925]

@@Venemofthe888 There's also the factor that Ruby's mother may not have seen that TV programme (many don't watch those types of shows) so Ruby being on national TV wouldn't mean a thing. Even if she saw it, the mother could easily have ignored it because it was her past and she'd put it all behind her, which she clearly had.

[@JAM92]

​@@Venemofthe888an average 15 year old girl shouldn't be able to hide herself from the Doctor and U.N.I.T. This just makes both U.N.I.T and the Doctor seem completely incompetent since they couldn't locate 1 totally average woman who isn't actively trying to hide and who's D.N.A is traceable because they have Ruby.

[@nealjroberts4050]

Yeah. I hope it is not just another RTD plothole because it's really egregious. But the alternative is that it's another trolling of the fans.

[@MrFearDubh]

I could see them putting in a brief cameo of Carole Ann Ford where she sees the Doctor and knows that it's him, but he's distracted by something else and just continues on his way and the camera flashes back to her as she just smiles briefly and continues on in another direction.

[@benjamintillema3572]

It feels silly to introduce a one time villain from the classic era that most fans haven't heard of only to kill him off the next episode. This has been a problem with RTD's writing from the start. When he wants a "big bad" for a season he looks to the original series despite being pretty good at writing memorable villains. In his first run it was a safe decision for a reboot with uncertain future. It got old and repetitive (flip a coin, heads Daleks, tales the Master). Now it's a detriment. The villain could have easily have been some new, unknown entity the Doctor accidentally brought back with him in Wild Blue Yonder. Then we wouldn't be wondering what Sutekh was doing for the HUNDREDS of years between Pyramids of Mars till now. We wouldn't be wondering what happened to Sutekh when the TARDIS exploded, or duplicated, or possessed by the House, or anything else that might have happened to it. We wouldn't have to wonder why an ancient god of death would be so fascinated by the mystery surrounding this random human. If it came to the universe recently then it would make sense why it waited till now because it's just figuring out what existence is like. It would be fascinated by Ruby because she was the first enigma it ever came across. But because RTD can't help himself it needs to be something on the Doctor Who wiki already.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

Well, one of his first original villains were the Slitheen the evil farting fat people so I'm not sure we really want him writing unique villains.

[@benjamintillema3572]

​@@quinnsinclair7028 Ah yes, the Slitheen. They are joke villains. But I think RTD could have easily gone with something like the doppelgangers in Wild Blue Yonder, the future humans in Last of the Timelords (who were secondary villains deserving of more attention), the 456, the unknown being in Midnight.

[@koivunen2489]

Death Gods are for life, not just for Christmas!

[@Faction.Paradox]

This felt like episode 2 & 3 of a three parter smushed into one. With the first ten minutes being speedrun Part 2 and the other 40k being the latter half of Part 3

[@maddenedgeek7726]

I’m really confused as to why the episode kept calling Sutekh the god of death. In ancient Egyptian religion, Sutekh was the god of chaos, destruction, deserts and storms. His brother Osiris (whom he killed) was the god of the dead. I also couldn’t recall ‘god of death’ being used ‘Pyramids of Mars’ so I looked up the script. The word death is used 7 times in the story arc. The word destroy (destroyed, destroyer) is used 26 times. Sutekh is referred to as Sutekh the Destroyer, and only once referred to as “Sutekh the great Destroyer, Sutekh the lord of death. I understand that Sutekh’s servants bring “Sutekh’s gift of death”, but that doesn’t make him god of death. I know he wasn’t actually a god in ‘Pyramids’ but I’m really confused as to why RTD made him ‘god of death’ and not ‘god of destruction’. I don’t understand this retconning choice.

[@salvadorlloret-farina8767]

They mixed lore - Set/Sutekh with Apep/Apophis the great devourer, it is explained in Pyramids that he wants all living things to die, he uses a zombie Prof Scarman who kills the chap in the fez, also a faithful servant of Sutekh that all life will end and Scarman's already has it's just he won't end till he is released

[@HandofOmega]

Also keep in mind that this ISN'T the Sutekh of Egyptian lore, it's an alien whose appearance somehow impacted human civilization in the past who got these wrong in their mythology (like the "gods" of the MCU or Stargate). Although it wasn't spelled out, one of the jokes I liked in EoD was "cultural appropriation"...because it doesn't say in which direction said appropriation was really going!

[@himynameismrperson]

36:30 I think it's worse in the departure scene where Ruby is talking about Louise and says "my mum, my real mum".

[@redfieldblair]

The scene with the spoon I count as a negative because it's a wasted idea. I kept thinking of the Big Bang watching this (as the other season that destroyed the universe), and the absence of some of its key elements really stood out: 1) Destruction of the universe was in part 1 so you had time to mull over what on earth they could do next week. That's where last weeks should have ended 2) There was no equivalent of the stone Dalek in this episode to keep the pace up, pacing wise this was a mess. Sutek caring about Ruby's mother made zero sense, the episode needed to be rewritten to see the Doctor basically fleeing into a disintegrating universe with Harbinger pursing them in the real TARDIS. The mystery of Ruby shouldn't have featured at all. 3) As you point out in this case we know everything comes back. In the Big Bang we have only the earth left - but the earth is where you could theoretically pull back to. You have what the cracks had been consuming over time - and eventually what you get back is basically the universe with the damage from the cracks still in place *but* with a few extras from Amy's memory. 4) The Big Bang was a joy of vortex manipulator travel to get all the pieces in place. Empire of Death had no pieces to get into place, the ending felt like it could have happened at any time.

[@eshbena]

For all we know, Kate is the younger guy's step mom and that was mother/son bonding. :D

[@stephjovi]

Would be better. He`s old enough, younger guy older women why not, the Doctor is thousands of years older than everyone they flirt with. But she`s his boss, he can`t just go get another job UNIT military is quite unique. She`s ranking so far above him.

[@bowtiesrcoolmonksrnot3272]

It might have also just been left over relief that they’re still alive. And he might be the newest employee so he’s who Kate’s most concerned about the psychological ramifications with.

[@Sironiral]

Fun fact: In the West Midlands of England, Mom is actually the most common abbreviation! It's a small pocket of mom in a sea of mum xD

[@itisALWAYSR.A.]

can confirm, it caused me such confusion why people said Mom is American when I literally call my mom that, as would she with her mom, etc

[@klop4228]

Me trying to work out if it's just because "mum" and "mom" are indistinguishable in your accent lol (Is it a long "o" or a short "o"?)

[@itisALWAYSR.A.]

@klop4228 eh, length of the vowel depends on what room she's in I think it was historically just a vowel variant (eg northern Mam), but we literally write it with an O, sooooo yanno

[@klop4228]

@@itisALWAYSR.A. I mean, many Americans pronounce "mom" in a way we'd probably transcribe as "mam" over here too, so I guess the spelling just stuck at some point.

[@scpatl4now]

I was meh on Space Babies, but every episode after that I have really enjoyed a lot. My problem with the finale is the way Ruby's story wrapped up. They spent almost the entire season building up the whole "Who is Ruby" only for it to be nothing...she is just ordinary. Ordinary people don't make it snow indoors. The emotional payoff was nice though.

[@ZomgLolPants]

probably a fakeout for the special or the next season. everything wrapped up like that because like was pointed out in the space babies episode, that's what's expected from a story. this entire season has been a fairytale. there's probably a god of narrative or something wrapped all up around this thing.

[@benjamintillema3572]

Yeah, I think Mrs Flood still being around and looking straight into the camera implies there is still more to learn about Ruby.

[@MydieLy]

Ordinary people in a sci-fi show like DW might. It all depends on what is going on around them. And like Kate says, the supernatural seems to be happening a lot more recently

[@Elwaves2925]

@@benjamintillema3572 I agree. Whoever Flood is there is a reason she was hanging around Ruby and being friendly towards her. There's also that Flood's end scene featured snow (and I don't think she's in the Xmas episode), so I hope that ties in to Ruby's snow. The explanation the episode gives for other things doesn't really cover that aspect.

[@nealjroberts4050]

There had better be a fakeout or it's a really stupid plothole!

[@BrianDavidson-q1j]

Empire of death feels more like a mid-season break than a finale.

[@theamyway4832]

I thought the same thing about Kate. The way it was shot, and her final words... and then everyone started dying lol. I do feel that if Mel and Susan Triad hadn't survived (they died in a very different way to everyone else), that would've grounded it all a bit more for me.

[@BlackCover95]

The reveal of Ruby’s mother’s identity would have been less dumb if the show came up with a better explanation for Ruby’s magical properties.

[@benjamintillema3572]

Well, it was snowing when Mrs Flood was talking directly to camera at the end, so I think it's implied that we still haven't unraveled all of the mystery surrounding Ruby.

[@thomaspowers1375]

It may be coincidence, or a deliberate misdirect, but... Mrs. Flood's cloak at the end of Empire of Death appears to be the same as the cloak Romana wore in her first appearance in The Ribos Operation.

[@404maxnotfound]

Tbh it was poorly handled but I like the idea that this whole mess happened because of sutekh thinking that she was pointing at him and going crazy over someone being able to see him but she was just pointing at something behind him. This could also be used to explain the snow because sutekhs main goal was trying to figure out the information on the mother so changed the perception filter to snow when ever Ruby or the Doctor remembered her to encourage them to investigate.

[@jphaggerty9046]

"This could also be used to explain the snow because sutekhs main goal was trying to figure out the information on the mother so changed the perception filter to snow when ever Ruby or the Doctor remembered her to encourage them to investigate." I prefer to run with the idea that the snow was a manifestation of Ruby's own idealised memories of the night she was born. Sutekh doiing it doesn't hold up when you realise the snow consistently appears when Ruby is well outside the range of the TARDIS perception filter.

[@EllieM552]

Oh I like that as an explanation for the snow!

[@sagarikasingh7750]

you have honestly explained much better then the freaking episode it self

[@TheCagedCorvid]

See, I'm thinking it was mrs flood, the whole episode is set in summer, or at least not winter, telling from the clothes and general weather... and yet at the end, she's on the roof in full winter garb, and it's snowing... seems suss to me lol

[@ThePlayTyperGuy]

Yes, Ruby’s longing to find her birth mother seems strange considering that she was raised from birth by Carla. She had a happy, fulfilling home. Obsessively watching the video of herself being dropped off is just weird to me. The abandonment issues that Ruby seems to have are usually the result of someone who personally knew the parent who bailed. It occurred to me how there’s no version of Superman where Clark longs to find his parents like Ruby does. Even his general curiosity about his background is rooted in his heritage. “Who am I? Why am I different?” But Clark on SMALLVILLE never called Jor-El “dad.” The Superman reference I made also reminds me of the unfortunate racial implication of the white adopted child desperately seeking their white mother while she has two amazing mother figures who are Black. I know it’s not intentional but it reads off to me.

[@paulhammond6978]

Yeah - it's like the two parts of the story don't connect up - Carla is Ruby's mum, and they have a great relationship, and Ruby is happy there. Then there's this obsessive thought about tracking down her birth mum that seems to belong to a different person's story entirely.

[@nealjroberts4050]

RTD does have these weird issues with race. Look how he paired Martha and Mickey off for example. I'm half convinced he'll kill off Ncuti with a "Not the Real Doctor" vibe, an undoing of the bigeneration into 14 who then has a "real regeneration"

[@blobby883]

tbf, I don't think Ruby was adopted as a baby. I don't remember the Christmas special very well, but I think it was stated Ruby was adopted after staying with Carla as a foster child. (correct me if I'm misremembering) Just because she has a loving family now, that doesn't necessarily mean she will have recovered from any abandonment issues she developed during early childhood.

[@paulhammond6978]

@@nealjroberts4050 Okay - but I don't see why you think there's something weird about Rose having a black boyfriend. - Oh, sorry, misread you talking about Martha. that *was* odd, because Martha was supposed to be engaged to the guy she met on the "year that never was" but RTD decided to pair her off with Mickey in the farewell tour. Which has got worse since we found out the issues of Noel Clarke at a later date.

[@brocktree4]

I can buy that Ruby's mom is ordinary. We've had Bad Wolf, the DoctorDonna, the Impossible Girl, the Hybrid, even the Timeless Child. I'm fine that Ruby isn't another demigod tied in with a cosmic prophecy. I can buy that the supernatural things around Ruby (the snow, the music, the Doctor remembering an event that he didn't stick around to see, even the records to her parents being missing) were the result of Mrs. Flood making Ruby's life more mysterious to keep Sutekh distracted so that her and the Doctor can defeat him. We'll probably get a different answer at Christmas or maybe not at all, but that's what I'm sticking with. BUT I cannot buy that explanation for the point. To have so many false flag clues, to only explain one of them, and that's what you came up with? I'd rather have the woman reach out and whisper something that the Doctor can't hear, and when they figure it out it's something like "Goodbye, Ruby". Still contrived but it makes more sense than just pointing at a sign when there is no one around other than the Doctor.

[@sleepykitty1985]

Nah, that puppy needed a walk. And I thought it was hilarious. XD

[@HandofOmega]

He should've broken out the rolled up newspaper!

[@voltijuice8576]

Teddy Salad’s costumes have become more grandiose over time

[@benlawrence97]

So with Kate and Colonel Ibrahim holding hands, why does that have to be a romantic thing? Can't a male and female hold hands platonicly - my reading of it was that it was just a spurr of the moment, glad-to-be-alive thing after being ressurected?

[@bani3134]

same and with that look kate gave the doctor when the other soldier died - or maybe i'm too aromantic for this lol

[@vortexalliance9938]

My counterpoint to you saying this is what RTD usually does as he did in his old era is that most people expect after 15 years away from the show for him to write it different and don't make same mistakes as RTD1. He should have grown as a writer in that time nit just do the same old thing

[@CouncilofGeeks]

In theory I agree, but if you got through 7 episodes and didn't clock that he's mostly doing what he's always done then I don't know what to tell you.

[@vortexalliance9938]

​@@CouncilofGeeksOh no I could tell from the 60th he just doing the same thing as his old era I mean bi-gen is literally metacrisis 2.0. But my main point is that just came we know this what he did before doesn't mean we should like it or it gets a free pass. But that's just my take on it

[@CouncilofGeeks]

@@vortexalliance9938 I'm not saying you have to like it, I just don't know why you'd still have that expectation in place by the time the finale rolled around. I'd hoped for more too, but I let it go after the first two episodes. And that doesn't mean I've loved everything, I demonstrably have not. It just means I know what not to hope for.

[@tecjohnson]

Killing the God of death made me roll my eyes but whatever...I could accept it. It was the fact the mystery surrounding Ruby's mom completely ignored every single clue that we were given is what ticks me off.

[@bizarrebunny5579]

My biggest ruby issue is they made the whole thing about Sutekh only being interested in ruby cos of her mother which is exactly what RTD did, spent the whole season obsessing over her mother than revealed it and now she’s gone. That was her whole story arc which was the storyline tryna paint Sue-tech in a bad light.

[@billydeeuk]

Gods were introduced to up the stakes. To be The Doctor’s biggest foes. The Celestial Toymaker is defeated by a game of catch. Maestro is defeated by someone playing the piano. Suntak is killed by The Doctor cutting a piece of rope

[@HandofOmega]

Kinda reminds me of what Marvel comics have been doing for awhile now: Introducing increasingly dangerous Cosmic Threats who *should* be sooo powerful that mere "superheroes" should not have a chance...but then the writers realize they wrote themselves into a corner and so they have to give away the victory to the good guys anyway, even if it doesn't really make sense.

[@AH-vm8yo]

Honestly the most the Doctor has been in danger was boom God's not included. My guy Sutekh got out done by a mine.

[@battlep0t]

Honestly I was fine with how the Toymaker was defeated, because the episode established he abided by a self-prescribed set of rules which the Doctor exploited. That's how they should've written Maestro and Sutekh's defeats rather than what they actually did.

[@TheRodentMastermind]

@@battlep0t I mean that was kind of how Maestro's defeat was, a musical chord brought her into the world, and finding the right anti-chord removes her.

[@zactyl8387]

The oldest game of all and the Doctor playing with an advantage given by the Toymaker himself. I did enjoy that ball game even if it is too simple. The piano for Maestro is more an inuniverse thing, music geniuses seen what the doctor was too blind to see. Not as rich for me as the Toymaker giving the advantage to the Doctor for his obsession. Sutekh was put on a leash for being a bad dog and thrown out of a vehicle in movement.

[@WaitWhatWho]

The more I think about this episode the more angry I get at RTD. I was so excited for his return after years of shit, and he spent a whole season basically lying to the viewers. It's like he was trying to have a go at theorists and speculatiors for trying to predict his story, but he put so much focus on the clues that they weren't even clues, they were questions designed to lead the viewer in a certain direction, even though it's completely meaningless, and you were the idiot for thinking otherwise. I'd honestly like that Ruby's mother is a normal person, if it didn't completely contradict what we were told the whole season. If she's just a normal woman, why does it snow? Why was Maestro so freaked out by the hidden song? Why was she completely impossible to track down? How was she able to carry a baby through a pregnancy presumably for 9 months as a 15 year old, deliver it, and abandon it without anyone finding out? Why did she randomly point at a lamppost for no reason to name her child? And wasn't that a changed memory? I've watched this show my entire life, I've been disappointed at it for years, that's nothing new. I think the difference now is that they're implying future seasons are going to directly continue on from this season, which is in stark contrast to how the show normally works with everything being tied up by the end of the season. I'd honestly be excited if they wanted to take a more serialised approach, but if this is the quality we can expect, how can I get excited?

[@wolfywonder8480]

My thoughts exactly! It didn’t help that half the time the Doctor just stood around like a goldfish all shocked or burst into tears instead of leaping into action like he always does. I get he had therapy, but that was for 14 to spend the rest of that regeneration getting. There’s no reasonable explanation for there being active danger and the Doctor just standing there in shock the whole time until someone else snaps him out of it. He traveled for over 2000 years before briefly settling down as 14! He knows how this danger stuff goes!

[@EmpireGamingWynter]

When it comes to Susan, I'd have been happy for the closing shot of this season to be The Doctor visiting Susan, but not saying hi, just watching her from afar and smiles as he sees she's got old, and she's survived and is happy, before leaving. I don't think she needs a big role. Just to give us closure that she's ok and to see Carol Ann Ford reprise the role even just for a small scene like that

[@stephenderry9488]

What's going to happen to the other Sutekh presumably sitting on 14's TARDIS..?

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

Only one Sutekh exists Well existed

[@klop4228]

He'll hang around until the TARDIS catches up to 15's.

[@misssupercookie2011]

My favourite thing to come out of this finale is the Sutekh memes. And I don't know what that says about the episode but I spent 90 minutes scrolling through them and it was time well spent.

[@chrispalmer7893]

Have to say that RTD disappointed me here in his handling of Ruby's birth mother. It wasn't just Ruby calling her "Mum" last week it was the use of "real Mum" (I'm afraid Vera went even further in this video with "true Mum"). I watched this with the eldest of my two adopted sons and whilst it bothered me, it really upset him. He was insistent that Carla is Ruby's "real Mum", and that's a very common reaction with anyone who was raised by someone other than their birth parents. I understand that RTD has addressed this and has said that it's just Ruby struggling to work out the language because it's all so new to her. I'm glad he'd thought about this and it wasn't just ignorance, but I'm afraid he's got that one badly wrong. The person is new to Ruby, but she's been having conversations about her birth mum her whole life, the language is not new to her. To compound it, my son and I objected strongly to Carla not being present for the initial meeting with the birth mum. I've no problem with the Doctor being there, but Carla should be, too. That's why she was so insistent on going to UNIT in the last episode - I know Vera thought that was clunky but as a fellow adoptive parent I was right there with her - you couldn't have kept me away. When my boys reach 18 they have the choice as to whether they reach out to contact their birth family. If that's what they choose to do, you can bet my wife and I will be there with them.

[@Tymbus]

In many ways Ruby's story was like my own. I didn't have an obsession with finding my birth parents but I had questions. I spent a year of document research. It was fun and interesting and we were successfully reunited. Just because something is common in literature doesn't mean it isn't true.

[@FineAndAndy]

I had a bit of a different take on the Doctor not saying "I love you, too" when Ruby leaves. Part of the arc of their relationship has been about how quickly the Doctor moves on afterwards. He's shown a lot of emotion throughout the season, but after he shows emotion, he then tries to say "okay, moving on" very quickly. He started this right off the bat in The Giggle, when he starts up the TARDIS before 14 and Donna have stepped out. He does it most clearly in Boom. In my opnion (and I think I probably commented this on your Rogue review), the ending of Rogue showed the growth of Ruby's and The Doctor's relationship, because she was able to push back more directly and get The Doctor to stop and process before moving on. In that context, I think the last scene between him and Ruby made sense as a sort of realistic regression of this aspect of character growth. When The Doctor is trying to convince Ruby not to go into the cafe and talk to his mother, the implication is that he knows this will end their travels together, and he's grieving the loss of his best friend and traveling companion. So when they say goodbye on the TARDIS, just as in The Giggle, The Doctor starts it up before Ruby has left in order to try to move on as quickly as possible. When he doesn't say "I love you, too", you can see when he turns around that he's trying not to cry. I don't think this undoes his character growth throughout the season, but it felt like a realistic reaction in the moment to me. On an unrelated note, I'm surprised your discussion around 36:30 didn't include a mention of the phrase "my REAL mom" from Ruby in the TARDIS goodbye scene. THAT line felt VERY out of place to me.

[@HandofOmega]

Nice analysis of the Doctor NOT wanting Ruby to talk to her birth mother, that did feel off to me, but now it makes sense! Although, due to the brevity of the season and Ncuti's appearances in it, I'm afraid I really don't BUY Ruby being the Doctor's "best friend". I know some fans who still insists that's Donna or even Sarah Jane, but now I guess that's just a phrase to be used with whoever's with him at the time...

[@mithril3966]

Yeah I think you're right. I also read it as him grieving the fact that he couldn't have the same resolution? I could be off since I didn't watch the last season but the Doctor's talked a few times this semester about being left like how Ruby was. She gets to have this nice ending that he'll never have and he's happy for her but it also hurts.

[@thenamelessdragon]

About the orphan thing: I'm personally not an orphan, but I've lived in a happy foster home most of my life, so watching this I clocked on most of the same things. It felt forced to me how easy it was for them to meld together and I felt like calling her birth mother 'mum' was a slap in Carla's face. In my own experience with a living mum, your birth mother takes a different role in your life when they aren't your caregiver. For me, that's a kind of friend, I don't see my mother as having any authority over me, so I speak openly however I want and I don't have to mind my Ps and Qs, but in saying that, I also can't respect her as a mother. Like for example when I do the 'introduce your partner to your parent' thing, I let her have the moment, but my foster parents are going to be the ones I actually want them to impress. Also the name stuff rung hollow to me. I kinda didn't see the point in caring who thought to name Ruby after the road she was brought to, and it could kinda be cruel if it was the mother like... that she didn't think of a name beforehand and just... winged it? This episode could have had more time to deal with the awkwardness that having a mother who isn't filling the mother role imparts. As it was, I was happy for Ruby, but I saw it as another loose end to tie up, not an experience that could very easily have resonated with me. And with the parting scene I clocked on too how weird it was. I mean for me the biggest weirdness was saying 'I love you' to a friend, but that's also a personal ick, I reserve that for romantic partners and for the closest members of my family because well... disjointed family, there is literally no one who has been in my life consistently for long enough to be a PART of it apart from my foster parents, so I don't like to say I love you for much else. So when Ruby said it, it struck me as that hollow 'I love you' you get from someone you see like once or twice a year where you either lie and say it back or try and sidestep it because you don't feel that and don't want to be inauthentic. Either that, or as a very f*cking sudden love confession which is just even worse. So his lack of response didn't strike me as wrong purely because of the hollowness I was reading into the admission. However him trying to avoid the family reunion was very 9th doctor to me, and that clocked to me as a regression in character development. I feel like for me, barring a longer episode count, they couldve had them saying 'I love you' before this, at least in Rogue. I can't interpret this 'love you' as a deep 'I see into your soul and I see how good you are', so it feels kinda dumb for them to portray it like that. Between Ruby and the Doctor 'I love you' should have been the lighter 'hey you're a great mate and I like all the time we spend together' one which was definitely a threshold crossed in Rogue.

[@AH-vm8yo]

Martha was one season but you saw Martha actually go through alot in many episode and her walking away hit the feels and was dramatic but Ruby sure gets shot but still the 8 episodes didn't feel like she got to grow as much and go through as much of an emotional journey. For me.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

This was the first Doctor Who finale that actively made me want to go to sleep while watching it... at least we got memes of "How did Sutekh react to X story?" I think the point you reference at 9:17 is where I immediately zoned out (possibly influenced by how the last 'full' series ALSO dealt with the threat of the entire universe ending for its stakes). I think both Sutekh and The Beast work better when the threat of what they would do if they escaped is left implied and narrowly avoided by the end of the story. Also imagine if the Season 13 villain that latched onto the TARDIS was Mr Chase instead of Sutekh: "I bring the Krynoid's gift of plants!"

[@jeffreymathewes4504]

Question: when 15 doubled the Tardis in “Giggle”, did Sutekh pass from 14’s Tardis to 15’s? Or did the process double Sutekh as well?

[@ninino86]

Good point. Did he have to make a descision?

[@robo3007]

I'd rate Empire of Death a 3.5/10. By far the worst finale Russell T Davies has ever written, and while I accept that all of his previous finales also had a deus ex machina ending of some sort they all at least made sure the events of the plot had a lasting consequence on SOMEONE. Pros: - While his intimidation factor wore thin in the later half, Sutekh was genuinely terrifying at the start of the episode. - Mel's character was well acted and her turn to becoming a harbinger of Sutekh gave me chills - I though it was clever how Ruby tricked Sutekh into getting close enough to attach the intelligent rope to Sutekh's collar. - The Doctor being reluctant to kill Sutekh worked well, and Nucti expressed the inner struggle he had between needing to save everyone and remaining a pacifist at heart beautifully. Cons: - As soon as everyone at UNIT HQ and Ruby's family were killed all of the stakes completely disappeared, as it was obvious they were all coming back. - Sutekh killing everyone except Ruby and the Doctor because he was invested in Ruby's backstory was one of the most ridiculous plot contrivances I have ever seen in an episode of Doctor Who. - I immensely dislike the implication that Sutekh managed to kill everything because the Doctor has travelled everywhere in the universe, and I suspect that it will soon be contradicted the next time he travels somewhere presented as being new. - Plot hole 1: If Sutekh has been on the Tardis ever since Pyramids of Mars, how did he survive all those times the Tardis was blown up? - The "Kind Woman"'s story was a complete waste of time. We learnt practically nothing about her or why the Doctor went specifically to her to get a piece of metal. - Plot hole 2: If the Doctor needed a piece of metal to operate the time stream viewer thingy, why didn't he just use one of the many metal objects cluttering the remembrance TARDIS? - Plot hole 3: If the very criteria of Sutekh being able to conquer somewhere was that the Doctor had to visit there first, why was it explained that Roger Ap Gwilliam was safe because he had already been visited by the Doctor? Did no one on set notice how much of a massive self-contradiction that was? - Plot hole 4: So... bringing death to a being that causes death brings life? That's like saying if you shine a light in an already well lit room it'll make the room darker! - None of the people Sutekh killed displayed trauma from thinking that they were going to die and then literally experiencing death. This goes back to what I said before about plot events having no consequences. - Plot holes 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9: If Ruby isn't special, then why did it snow every time she thought of family? Why was her teenage mother wearing monk garb in the CCTV footage? Why did her mother point at the street sign, when she had no idea who was going to find her and choose to name her? Why did Maestro mention that she could feel something powerful inside her? Why did the people in 73 Yards look back at Ruby before they ran away? - Plot holes 10 & 11: If Roger Ap Gwilliam was able to collect Ruby's mother's DNA sample, why did Ruby not look her up in 73 Yards after learning about the DNA samples being collected? I feel like the scene where Roger makes that DNA announcement on the news was deliberately not shown in 73 Yards so people wouldn't notice the plot hole. Also why was Davina McCall, a family tracing expert, unable to find any record of her like Roger's government did?

[@timetraveller07]

RTD really needs to comprehend that he is an artist with flaws and actually works on the things that don't work out in his stories. This is way better than blindly self-praising his work "the bestest, the maddest...etc". Not listening to criticism does not mean you are cool or unbothered. Now that season 15/2 is already done, i hope series 3 will have improvements cos Ncuti really deserves a good era. We don't want a repeat of Jodie's situation with Chibnall.

[@HandofOmega]

One of the problems with today's streaming format is how new seasons get the go-ahead...*before* the audience reaction at the first season even comes in! What if there was something that just didn't work for fans (reasonably, not the reactionary "fans"), there's no way they'd be able to address in time for the next. I honestly don't know why shows find it so laudable to brag about being renewed for more seasons before the first is out; it shows confidence, but we all know no real audience has seen it yet, so how do they expect that to *impress* us??

[@alexandertaylor7316]

While not without its issues, this era is already leagues ahead of what Chibnall gave us.

[@novagray4143]

Yeah. I feel like season 10 is so good bc moffat did listen to criticisms of his work and in the process became a better show runner/writer

[@timetraveller07]

@@alexandertaylor7316 chibnall era is a low bar tbh.

[@emilymarriott5927]

I have a feeling with the way they've talked about Susan this season, particularly with where The Doctor reached by the end means that we'll probably see Susan again before the end of RTD's second run as showrunner.

[@MarkWiseTechno]

Repeatedly throughout the episode I found myself saying out loud, "This is bad. This is just bad." The story has far too much and too obvious "hand of the author" in it. Far too much of what happened and the way it happened can only be explained with "because that's what the writer wanted to happen." As an example. The explanation for why Sutehk kept The Doctor and Ruby alive was that he didn't get a clear look at Ruby's mother in the past, and it bothered him that he didn't know who she was. But why would that ever bother Sutehk? Sutehk places no value on mortal life. Human beings mean NOTHING to him. Why would it ever bother him that he didn't get to see one random human that he literally does not give one fuck in the universe about? Because that's what the writer wanted and no other reason whatsoever. Too much of the episode is like that. It's not a story where characters are placed into a situation and make decisions to resolve it. It's a story where the author controls the characters like puppets to force the "right" things to happen, and it's bad. 3/10

[@wolfywonder8480]

Ngl I’d argue it’s more a 2/10, at least for me. Still can’t get over the teal tint to the dust in a lot of scenes, I’ve been calling it the Egyptian Death Fart lol

[@AirWrites]

I think really, the only way a Susan cameo could work and has a payoff is if she gew old with whatshisface and that allows an older Carole Ann Ford to come back, then either that's that and we don't see what happens next, or she signs off the role onto someone else via a regenration (if she can regenerate). Probably the only way I see it really working

[@victorpeterson3502]

I liked that, right before Ruby ran into the cafe to meet her biological mom, the Doctor said that leaving Ruby by the church was her choice and since she had 19 years to get in contact with her again and never did, they should respect that choice and leave her alone. Now, the reunion ended up going well and I liked that they went that route, but it’s still an important thing to keep in mind before doing such a thing and not dive into it head first. And I liked that.

[@RyanofPower]

Mrs Flood theory. She's the god of stories and that's why she can talk to camera, it'll also be a return of the land of fiction which was one of the tales of the TARDIS episodes.

[@alfje5492]

RTD does need to leave these world-ending threats that get resolved and reset so easily, out of his finales and focus on what he does best: character, drama, emotions! Sutekh was just background noise in the engaging (but ultimately disappointing) search for Ruby's mum. Great setup and a meh resolution, pretty much on track for RTD. Anyway, we got some good episodes in this series and hopefully s2 will be better.

[@TheyThem_andM]

Didnt bat an eyelid when ruby left. Which sucked. I never saw her and the Doctor build any relationship, not enough for that “sad” goodbye.

[@nailinthefashion]

That's why it was sad to me. Like meeting a new friend and realizing your schedules are just too cluttered to really bond beyond know you love each other's vibe. Super relatable for me

[@pious83]

I think that is really the failing of this being an eight episode season. Plus all the non-Doctor episodes. Ruby's best episode being one of those is quite damning.

[@AH-vm8yo]

I think the shorter season hurts Ruby. Donna and Martha were mostly contained to 1 season but their exits just hit harder because you could see their emotional journey and their relationship with the Doctor. They actually argued and challenged the Doctor but Ruby and the Doctor's relationship didn't feel like it had much friction. Episodes like Thin Ice hit hard because Bill holds the Doctor to account and makes him answer a question I just hate when there is barely any disagreements you got epsiodes with Martha the season learning her self worth and walking away and Donna with only her 3rd episode having the extremely emotional disagreement in fires of Pompei. Even her 1st episode she had the moment telling the Doctor to stop.

[@floraidh4097]

Yes, my reaction was like she was upset and he looks sad and then she asks him to spend time with her moms and he started awkwardly agreeing and deflecting like someone who totally doesn't want to go do that thing with you. There was no time for the characters to become convincing good friends.

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

She hasn't left She is coming back in 2025 She will be travelling with the Doctor and the New Companion

[@yerkeskid]

So, why did it snow for Ruby during the season if her mother was just a regular woman?

[@SamuelDoherty]

At the end when the doctor lists off the planets brought back I don't know if they mentioned skaro. that could be Davies trying to phase out the daleks (I know there has been negotiations with the baker Terry estate due to Disney getting involved but I don't know if it's public what the outcome of that was)

[@cierrarachael9949]

I see what you're saying about the pointing. The way I rationalized it was by considering that her mother was approximately 15 yrs old at the time. The exposition framed it like a declaration, while the scene itself framed it as if it was meant to be a realization or an epiphany. RTD is getting sloppy imo.

[@MisstressSamantha]

How did anyone at the time when Ruby was found, know her mother pointed to a sign to name her? At first I thought Mrs flood was going to be Ruby's mum. Now I am torn between her been Susan or maybe. Amy Pond had named her daughter River, so Flood? 🤔

[@nealjroberts4050]

Clues for Flood are either another Timelord or the God of Time. It would fit RTD's ego to have fans arguing that the Doctor's "Mother" is his wife or daughter or granddaughter! Maybe however we get the God of Storytime instead 🙄

[@meganvincent5381]

26:00 OH GOD I DIDN'T EVEN CLOCK THAT. Russel dude c'mon don't endorse that!

[@instantromy]

This episode proves your "this needs more than 8" video so, so right. I know and am familiar with the whole cascade of events if this last part, but my experience/enjoyment was affected with the amount of adventures and emotional engagement we did not see. But I still cried in the end. We just should have had more.

[@joshbarkley4403]

I'm thunking Mrs Flood is a new God who's power is being aware they are in a tv show , hence the 4th wall breaks. I think if done well it could be really great.

[@mortdewerewolfe691]

A Forces CO being romantically involved with a subordinate in most forces is against regulations btw.

[@nealjroberts4050]

The usual solution, and this relates to policing too, is to be upfront and one or both transfers so neither is in the other's chain of command. I'm not sure how that can work for the Head of UNIT. Best thing to do is fridge it.

[@mortdewerewolfe691]

@@nealjroberts4050 Yeah, either one needs to resign/be transferred. But my peeve is not just it's unrealistic but cheap, crass & eye-rollingly cringy & that no one on the prod. team seemed to think that through.

[@peterkorman77]

I don't think it's nostalgia goggles making this finale feel worse than other RTD finales, because it wasn't _just_ that everything was resolved conveniently, it's that everything leading up to that was less engaging. Yes, you know everything is gonna get reversed in Last of the Time Lords, but you still FEEL the seriousness of the Master's victory before then, and you specifically want to see Martha succeed because of what it would mean for her. With this, I didn't feel anything toward Sutekh, and all of the good human drama felt incredibly separated from the Sutekh stuff, despite how hard RTD tries to connect the two. It all just felt meaningless

[@robo3007]

I 100% agree. Also to piggyback off your Last of the Time Lords comparison, I feel like it hit harder because, despite the rewind, there were still permanent consequences for the story's main characters. The Master died in so finally having a small victory over the Doctor. His wife managed to break free of his abuse. The Doctor had to go on knowing that he lost a childhood friend and is now the last of his species. Martha has to return to normalcy having watched her family go through terrific abuse. The only consequence Empire of Death had was Ruby finding her mum, but that could have happened in any episode.

[@arubinojr5670]

3:45 Pretty perfect descriptor. It's the RTD Brew you're used to but in its RTD Brew Concentrate form. Try to drink that straight and you're risking a bad time with each glass.

[@gryfon_gamez8184]

You should also do a ranking of Ncuti's outfits through the series

[@HandofOmega]

Would love to see this! Honestly, seeing him in just a t-shirt kills me, esp when he instantly looks so much better with just a jacket thrown on over it (loved the Fonz/Grease look he was rocking)!

[@ThePhoenixLion]

Good review. I liked the episode, but it has indeed some issues. I agree with most of your points. About the Kate holding hands, my views are a bit different. I noticed that afterwards others suggested that it was romantic. But in the moment to me it was more a familiar gesture. As in we, as a Unit family, just survived an apocalyptic event. And that they were both grateful to be back alive, with their Unit family. I didnt see anything romantic in that. And in a way for me the reaction from the Doctor to Ruby's saying: I love you, mirrored that. A little smile to acknowledge we're family. Similar, because their non-verbal demeanor says we are a family. But maybe that's just me reaching, I just like it as my headcannon.

[@AMoniqueOcampo]

I kinda feel like this episode could have been 2 parts. What Sutekh did was basically in the same scale as Thanos's snap in Avengers: Infinity War. It would have been more interesting if Sutekh would have done his dust of death thing more slowly, made it more personal for the Doctor. Regardless, I liked this episode.

[@Venemofthe888]

It kinda reminds me of what the Flux was portrayed to be but didnt quite land

[@Samantha_76]

There was one moment in that episode where I was truly disturbed by what was implied. They corrected it overall within a second but still. When they mentioned the stepfather being trouble and it was a good thing they got Ruby, a girl, out of that house. I almost thought he was Ruby's father until they named William.

[@ftumschk]

I believe that the Memory TARDIS was always intended for this episode, so it's fully canonical. The fact that they retrospectively decided to reuse the set for the "Tales of the TARDIS" series is a bonus... at least for those who can access those minisodes.

[@marionbaggins]

Those who hadn't because it wasn't available is a Middle Finger from the rest of the world.

[@rowenblue]

My main complaint is it was resolved way too quickly and we didn’t have time to sit with the terror of Sutekh’s death wave. I think we needed one more episode: a standalone story in the vein of Utopia or Turn Left, which leads to the Susan Triad/Sutekh reveal as a cliff hanger. Then we get a proper two part finale. Part 1: Sutekh is returning but not at full strength yet, they work out Ruby’s birth mother is tied up it in all (maybe Sutehk let’s something slip), thus organically prompting the investigation in the time window, we get some real consequences (i.e. character deaths) that won’t be undone later, and the episode culminates in Sutekh & his harbingers reaching full strength and initiating the full death wave. We end on The doctor’s agonised scream from the memory Tardis. Part 2 picks up with the scene with the mother and the spoon (pacing wise, that scene feels like the start of a new episode anyway). And then we just get way more time to experience the horror of sutekh’s empire of death as they travel around in the memory Tardis trying to find a solution, figuring out how Ruby’s mother factors in, finally confront Sutekh, and ultimately defeat him with a few more steps, switches in who’s winning, and a better sci-if explanation for why the death + death = life things actually works. When I imagine the episode spaced out like this it resolves most of my gripes. Then just fix the weird details in the conclusion to the Ruby’s birth mother story that Vera mentioned, which, again, if we had more time, would be much easier to do. Basically it all comes down to: 8 episodes is not enough!!!

[@EmeralBookwise]

I don't know. It feels like weak by a much larger margin to me, but maybe that just because my expectations for what Doctor Who can be are so much higher than during RTD's original runs, or maybe it's because we've been down this road one too many times and the formula has worn too thin. ...or maybe it's because Sutekh's defeat isn't really the climax of this finale and so it all feels even more rushed just so we can get to the resolution of who Rubie's mother is which just seems so much more incidental with how underplayed it is. Also, yes, as some whose mother is an adoption attorney, and whose sister has two adopted kids, it all is just a little uncomfortable how much emphasis is place on this woman being Ruby's "real" mother, because no she isn't. Carla is Ruby's REAL mother in every way that should matter most. Who this other woman is Ruby's BIRTH mother, and I really wish more media would get that distinction the right way around.

[@caralitberg5306]

I really appreciate your reviews. You're very good at explaining why the thing that bothers me actually bothers me when I can't put into words why. I really feel like if they had another episode to build things a little smoother this storyline would have been better balanced and less underwhelming of a conclusion.

[@Look_Over_There]

The episode had real shining moments Mel bring a badass, Mrs flood honestly her actress nailed it I wouldn’t mind at all if she was just the next missy, the memory tardis although I don’t know why only Ruby could remember it Mel and the doc could’ve helped ? The spoon scene was amazing the acting was great. That said 3 things struck me. Sutekh should’ve entered the tardis when it absorbed the flux. A force of death engineered outside the universe would’ve been perfect for him to ride in on like the maestro with music or toy maker with superstition. It would’ve been 15s specific adventures that made him stronger making it more personal to him and explained Susan’s sudden appearances. Also would’ve been a possible flux fix. I liked that her mum was normal as I was worried she’d have no parents. think ruby and her mum could’ve been explained by being enveloped in a mega perception filter when he landed at the church. It caused her mum to be hard to focus on the cloak, memories changing etc she could’ve been pointing at the tardis as a clue as to what was causing it or like you said leave it unexplained and sutekh being linked the more he brooded the stronger it got. Ruby wasn’t actually making it snow/music it was just a perception filter when her memories were triggered. The doctor going back to the church resulted in the perception filter being cast in the first place wibbly wobbly paradox. Perception filters have been a big thing this season so would’ve fitted in. That colonel that died the last episode should’ve stayed dead. Just one casualty to weigh on the doctors mind, him living really robs that scene between him and Kate. Lastly I’m straining my lower back with that ‘pointing at the sign because of s camera…I’m a snowstorm….73 yards away…’ stretch lol n

[@meala23]

Yes, much better, thank you! I wish rtd had you in his writers room!

[@Look_Over_There]

@@meala23 kind of you to say 😊 it’s easy enough for me and others to come in after the fact with my notes when someone else has done most of the work lol

[@AllThePiecesMatter_]

RTD1 finales were way more emotionally satisfying for me. A lot of the problem lies with the length of the season now, there hasn't been much time to invest in 15 and Rubys relationship. Also, RTD1 arcs were subtler than now; this season had way too many mystery boxes. This finale doesn't hold together for me, far too much waffle, too many plot holes, too many questions either unanswered or poorly answered. Totally undermines the whole season.

[@sirjedisentinel]

My big hangup is... well, I don't know how I feel about rest buttons as a narrative trope (I think I lean towards not liking them). But I feel like it's a trope you have to build up to, or bury the lead on them. But in the first minute of the episode (not counting the recap & opening credits), RTD kills off the entire UNIT cast. In the moment, Russell has so blatantly set up he's doing a reset button. I spent the remainder of the episode going, "you're undoing all of this, why should I care about what's going on?" (That being said, I like the nature of what the reset button is, because it's one of my favorite fantasy tropes: double negative, what happens when death kills death? Life!)

[@salvadorlloret-farina8767]

Imo there were myriad ways to have improved the narrative which not only makes better use (or in fact actual pertinent use of) the mystery boxes and weaves together the threads better: 1) the reason this season has had so many 4th wall breaks is because it was entirely taking place within the memory TARDIS - Inception style It links to the death of memories and if memories are time etc... that has all sorts of meta narrative messages, if you stay trapped inside your own memories/too attached to the past too long you lose yourself and die without truly having lived. It explains how the Toymaker was exiled 'from this universe for eternity' so darn easily and allows for an example of how to make beneficial use out of remembering and when we have failed/lost in the past and making those events learning experiences 2) 73 yards - I think at first glance we disagree on it, but it either needed less tying in or fully integrated The 66 meters camera thing 3) Ruby & Mum What the hell was Maestro on about about - this power? If my framing idea was used - The power of memory and her rewatching the tape with the Sunday's adding power to it year after year would make an otherwise 'ordinary' person have v specific importance - her desire longing being a link to the 'real' world outside of the memory TARDIS could have worked. Although I prefer the idea of Ruby being the heart of the Tardis in human form, chameleon arch style, bait for Sutekh to follow into the trap. That could link to Rogue and banishment to another dimension, the reason that losing Ruby would have been bad on many levels. And explain the two Tardis via Toymaker mallets Or if one of the two was special and the other wasn't hence the foundling thing - it would be the diametrical opposite if what happened between Tecteun & the Dr. 3) the tears of the Doctor - so much could have been made of them thematically. Sutekh God of Death turns everything into what, Dust. A creature who regenerates seemingly without limit is clearly the antithesis of the God of Death Water+Dust could make clay The Water of Life, the literal Flooding of the Nile is what Ancient Egypt worked around ok it was Isis (Mrs Osiris, the -Mother- of Horus) who brought people back from the dead so perhaps Mrs flood being the heart of A Tardis might be better placing 4) the 'romantic' entanglement I didn't see it as romantic but as a reaction to coming back from death and seeking tangible proof of it - though I concede my interpretation makes less sense now I consider the romance possibility - it would have been better suited if she had held two people with no gazing

[@byronstory3291]

Gonna miss these reviews. I found you through them and have really been enjoying em. Highlight of the week 😅

[@albineigengrau3212]

With how meta this season has been, it wouldn´t surprise me if Mrs Flood turned out to be Verity Lambert.

[@Moshenka]

OMG! I don't know if this is news, but since it's the first time I heard (I'm not on twitter and I rarely visit insta, so sorry if this is old news): Congratulations on your boyfriend! For some reason it made me happy to hear and I wanted to send a mental hug. Also, on a side note - How many rats are there now? Because I feel like at least one of those we haven't seen prior to this outro, or is that just me?

[@CouncilofGeeks]

There’s currently two rats: Sprite and Brownie.

[@carpevinum8645]

I feel like Mrs Flood's outfit is christmas-y so she may play a bigger part in the upcoming christmas special.

[@mzaite]

Wait this wasn't the Christmas special? It was written like a christmas special.

[@nancyjay790]

I wish I had a coat like that.

[@nekusakura6748]

@@nancyjay790 The First Incarnation of Romana had a coat like that.

[@nancyjay790]

@@nekusakura6748 I do recall. I'm older than dirt. I saw many classic Doctor Who episodes when they were first broadcast on PBS. I met my husband (who's a Brit) when I was in the UK and almost the first thing we did together was watch the first broadcast of the final part of the Sylvester McCoy story "Remembrance of the Daleks". I think Romana's coat looked a little fluffier than Mrs Flood's, but I haven't checked, so I could be wrong. Thanks for the message!

[@nomar8770]

Mrs flood theory : I think Mrs flood could be a regeneration of Tecteun. The way that Mrs flood said "clever boy" about the doctor felt very parental in nature. Tecteun essentially being the doctors foster parent also fits the entire series theme , so having Tecteun show up again would certainly fit the family theme . Plus it'd be really interesting to have Russel utilise such an underused character

[@benlawrence97]

So the thing about Ruby referring to her birth mother as Mum is that in that final scene in the tardis with the doctor, she does at one point refer to her birth mum as Louise and Carla as mum, which I think quite a few people seemed to have missed.

[@SarcyBoi41]

True but in that same scene she also refers to Louise as "my REAL Mum" and that didn't really sit well with me. I know she means "biological", but that particular wording still feels like an insult to Carla.

[@benlawrence97]

@@SarcyBoi41 that is true, but i've seen that RTD has said that was actually intentional to Ruby is still adjusting and learning all the new terminologys.

[@SarcyBoi41]

@@benlawrence97 fair enough I suppose

[@kismete6921]

I think the thing between Kate and the soldiers guy is not supposed be romantic. At least I didn’t think so. I just thought two people who escaped death and were happy.

[@nancyjay790]

However, why not reach your other hand to someone else nearby? That's how a group all go, "Somehow that got solved, we're okay."

[@Elwaves2925]

@@nancyjay790 There was nobody directly next to either of them. Rose was the next nearest Kate but also forward of her as well and Susan was just out of reach. Mel was forward of soldier guy, so there wasn't really any other opportunity. 🙂

[@nancyjay790]

@@Elwaves2925 Hm. Fair point. But that's directorial framing, which indicates that RTD intended for a romantic interpretation. I just thought a way for the gesture to have been less This Is A Thing would have been to have others reaching out, or even others holding hands. Putting these two center frame and removed from the others goes to the romantic interpretation, which, oh boy.

[@Elwaves2925]

@@nancyjay790 They weren't removed from the others, they were all close but not in positions to hold hands. Watch the scene again. Everyone in it was centre stage in the doorway. I don't see it indicating a romantic interpretation. I see people wanting to see it that way. It could romantic but it could just as easily be platonic between two close collegues that are happy to be alive. Sure, it would have been clearer as a group hand hold, or even a hug but that didn't happen. We'll have to wait and see if RTD does anything with it to be certain.

[@davidcheater4239]

Quoting BTVS: "Now I find myself needing to know the plural of apocalypse."

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

As. Adopted person and for me my desire to find my birth mother never extended beyond the medical records. My sister growing up was obsessed with find her birth mother and it caused a great deal of harm to family. However Ruby is going be back next season and she undermine her departure