Protecting Yourself from Covert Narcissism: What Science Says

[@bratzsnoopy]

Always watch out for those who weaponize "vulnerability".

[@artandculture5262]

The invalid class. Or the empath declared people who said they read the Highly Sensitive Person book and are awful people.

[@kristenkz]

Thank you for this distinction about emotionality. In my ex partner, I characterized this as “venting”, just spewing the displeasure, with no attempt to resolve anything. Furthermore, I noticed he projected this onto me when I was genuinely sharing a problem that needed to be addressed. He simply “tolerated” my words, pretending to listen, but ultimately treated me w contempt and stonewalling-often resentfully ending w “are you done?”, We literally never resolved anything for almost 20 years. Eventually, everything I brought to him was rejected w more contempt, thrown into the same bucket w seething resentment “you criticize me for everything”...mockingly “it’s alllll my fault, everything is my fault, all you do is complain, nothing I do is good enough” . Countless times, I was left alone heartbroken and exhausted after he stomped out. The next day, he would act like nothing happened unless I brought it up again...and the cycle would continue. So grateful I am fully aware, and past this now🙏

[@fleece9289]

Goodness me, my “husband” is cut from the same cloth. Same words, same actions. I saw the emotionality come out for the first time after we’d been together for about 15 months when I asked where is this relationship going. Literally threw himself against a wall, mewling as he slumped to the ground. I thought it was strange behaviour at the time, but I’d never seen anything like it before and was sucked back in. I understand so much more now, it must be difficult for him and that is not my responsibility.

[@shelleojada]

I feel your pain. Same thing here.

[@alicearisu9888]

😮 Thank you for your account... You could be describing the father of my son 😢

[@alicearisu9888]

😮 Thank you for your account... You could be describing the father of my son 😢

[@critter_paws]

Barely on the outter edge of this rn. Trying to calm my nervous system and breathe a bit easier again and it's a consistent daily battle rn. Mostly still stuck in survival response. This is all overwhelming.

[@coriandermylovelypup]

Thank you for the clarity when describing the differences between the 2 types of Narcissism. Please know this particular video, in just 11 minutes helped me tremendously to finally understand in a crystal clear way at this time in my life, the Covert Narcissist and their dance of manipulation with their victim. As a survivor I have just breathed a sigh of relief in finally being able to identify the process of being pulled in over and over again. I will listen to your videos, especially this particular one, many more times moving forward. I am a 70 year old woman who is seeking a divorce after 50 years of being married to a Covert Narcissist. Thank you.

[@adriancampbell630]

So happy you broke free❤

[@wildhorses6817]

You will enjoy the Peace in your life. I divorced after 35+ years. Best Wishes.

[@traveler7929]

I like the term vulnerable narcissist better than introverted because their appearance is of vulnerability, even if it isn’t real. My experience is that these folks can actually be quite social, the sweet little vulnerable person everyone loves. They can come home and be completely abusive, like emotional extortionists, but no one who sees them would believe it. When you try to gray rock, defend yourself or leave, they absolutely turn everyone against you. I mean who could hurt that sweet little person? They are masters of the subliminal mind f$ck, making you question your own sanity. I disagree somewhat in that I think these people can be very deliberate in what they are doing to discredit and isolate you and they feel joy in doing just that.

[@alicearisu9888]

Yep! 😢

[@alicearisu9888]

Yep! 😢

[@lemostjoyousrenegade]

Well said.

[@wildhorses6817]

Yes, agree. ?????????????????

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

Yes. I think there is a deliberate measured nastiness about revenge

[@petrastrong7799]

You are completely describing my x husband! 18 years later - I wish I had been raised to be aware of what you are so clearly describing.

[@Canaday291]

The NPD ex I divorced is a combination of overt and covert and like a chameleon he morphs into whatever will help him “win” at his malevolent sadistic merciless never ending chess game at all costs and to get him his self serving desired result

[@boogalooshrimp5774]

9

[@sandracaezza7234]

I would like to add, in my 24 yr marriage that addiction plays a role in covert narcissism. Many addictions Social media for supply, gay porn. Many relapses & the last one , I witnessed social media being very dangerous. I detached for good this time, all hope is lost for me.

[@w8what575]

My dad used to get upset with me if I noticed something that he missed on a job (he’s a contractor) or if I did a really impressive job on something and got a compliment from someone…etc…like I was trying to take his lime light or something…he’d mock me and make derogatory remarks like she thinks she’s some sort of engineer or something…ask her.. lol…acting out his narcissistic behavior…I finally decided to email him…my pov…since he can’t hear a damned word I say unless I whisper it to someone and it’s about him…lol…so I know it’s intentional ignoring me or disregarding me….i literally had to explain it to him that if I do a good job at something.,,I’m not competing with him….im mimicking him…because I want his approval…and if I do a good job, he should see that as a reflection of his work since that’s what I am doing …mimicking him…it’s a compliment to him when I get a compliment…he taught me everything I know…now…he can actually tell me I did a good job

[@WorldReserveCurrency]

Subscribed. This has been so helpful. My mother and younger brother, both, with overt NPD consistently result to gaslighting and emotional abuse get what they want for sure. If I bring up something that upsets me they won't address it at all but will become avoidant and result to pointing out something about me or something I did decades ago, but never address the topic at hand.

[@katievictoriabrown]

I've been in relationships with people with extreme narcissism, great lack of empathy and grandiose, but I've also been in relationships with people with narcissism on a lesser level. Whatever level their narcissism, it is just harmful and unhealthy. The person with a lesser level of narcissism than the others, he was so self-centred, selfish, didn't seem to feel anything when hurting me. You may wonder why I've been in so many relationships with narcissists? Both my parents are narcissists. I feel so blessed that I didn't turn out to be a narcissist, and have that I have empathy. I was more similar to the 'echo-ist,' that Craig has described, when I was growing up. I have done a lot of self-help and self-healing work since, so I would say that I am no longer an 'echo-ist' or codependent anymore, fortunately. One of the remedies, I feel the greatest, is to get back your self-worth that was lost. When you had relationships, whether parents or partners, where you needs didn't matter, that they didn't count. That your feelings were insignificant. Realise, your self worth and that your needs are important and should be met.

[@Canaday291]

Well said. My feelings exactly after being a co dependent empath my whole life and why I attracted tolerated and kept sweeping under rug the abuse cheating neglect and abandonments of my children and I from the malignant narcissist alcoholic ex I just divorced

[@jennamalloy5557]

I cannot express the gratitude I feel for your videos Dr. Malkin. My education unfortunately culminated into a multi felony/federal crime involving the most extreme case of cyberstalking our police department had ever experienced. The diagnosis acute NPD/Covert to a malignant degree.. You are saving lives. (My real identity is hidden)

[@arronsanderson468]

I follow your work and think you explain narcissism coming from a personal place rather then just coming from a angry place like most people that are doing videos about it. I have read your book and your mother was narcissistic like mine is and also my sister. I’ve learned a lot from your book and videos and have used the spectrum from your book as a educational tool at my place of work to help people understand it better. This is big in the world we live in today and people need to be educated about it and realise that it takes on different forms I’m different people and not all narcissistic people are toxic to be around. They just think, feel, and relate to people in a different way.

[@andromeda3780]

Every term in narcissism has an extreme opposite definition: apparent vulnerability is no longer something requiring compassion it is a freaking deep red flag!! It's hard to be certain it isn't a natural vulnerability but rather a narcissistic one and very confusing to tell when someone appears vulnerable and acts in abusive way if they are having bad time dealing with the situation or this is how it always is for them.

[@raccuia1]

Look for a pattern over time.

[@JP-lw4js]

Yes! I was married to an overt narc for 2 decades. Be fore and after I left I learned as much as I could about it. Then a covert appeared in my life, it took about six weeks in to see it. It confused me having had the long relationship with an overt, I see how I was vulnerable to the covert. It was like he was pseudo acting. There were red flags I was able to pick up on. Grateful to your teaching and providing this invaluable validating information.

[@wallymarcel1]

Thank you. Really interesting information. I commented on a prior video of yours about my recently diagnosed case of Meuniere’s. My initial attack was triggered as the result of an argument I had with my narcissistic brother last year, a political argument, last November, around the election. My brother went into a rage on the phone then slammed the phone down and didn’t speak to me again for at least a month. It was extremely upsetting to me. The interesting thing was, and here’s where your video comes in, is that all during that fight on the phone, and in the interim silent treatment, my gut feeling was, “This is a bullshit argument. It’s fake anger.” You’ve confirmed my suspicions. It was calculated emotionality, not actual emotions. I believe he deliberately did this because I had been gray rocking him and that really drove him nuts.

[@cartermusic2020]

Both are a painful experience. Protect yourself, loves.

[@lisahead6868]

Amazing session.

[@lifecoachlesli3647]

Loving the new videos! I've also heard this referred to as "vulnerable narcissism."

[@CraigMalkin]

that's right (even though of course its' not really vulnerable. And so glad you like them!

[@lifecoachlesli3647]

@@CraigMalkin It is rather interesting, since it's not real vulnerability. I like how you distinguished that in the video. I had never thought of it like that.

[@LinYouToo]

I would love to see another video segment dedicated solely to the difference between emotionality and emotion

[@mthomas3547]

I agree.

[@missmerbella]

I would like to as well.

[@StevenSeiller]

+1 It was quite a revelation once I started tracking the exact words, their [lack of] specific request, and the [lack of] follow-through that consistently reflected a significant dissonance between their complaint, their insight into why they continually find themselves in such situations, and even motivation to avoid it. (see: Alexithymia) I had to teach myself that with the complaints of someone in particular not to presume that what appears (looks/sounds/feels) to be undesirable was _actually_ undesired and not to presume that in raising the complaint they were actively working to prevent it in the future. Dr. Malkin, you do a great job of helping others to protect themselves around *people who express unhealthy narcissism* (notice I didn’t just say narcissists) . So once you notice this dissonance between the expression of emotion and actual emotionality, how do you explain that to 3rd parties without sounding like you are dismissing or invalidating their complaint?

[@lifeofaseven]

Thank you for this very helpful, in my experience living with a covert narcissistic person or what I understood him to be it took me forever to catch on and really learn about it and watch his patterns over several years But what I found is that he had the more introverted, fragile, everything they describe a covert narcissist to be In fact he really seemed like more of a codependent empath unless a person lived with him behind closed doors 24/7 and that is when the mask would drop And he would kind of go back and forth between this covert mask of being a fake type of charming and loving and then when it felt safe for him He would turn into the more grandiose type of narcissist Doing more openly spiteful and cruel things Most of the time it was a hidden thing very spiteful resentful and passive-aggressive pretending to be a kind caring person But again when some of these types feel safe enough, because I feel like the covert narcissist more than the grandiose has an extreme need for approval from others, they are desperate to look like the good people And so they absolutely have to feel safe and like you're not going to leave them, like your guard is down, you are in a helpless position or something like that And when they are sure enough of themselves in the situation that is when they drop the mask and let the more grandiose qualities come out And I'm sure every individual is different depending on their background and many things factor into their personality But this is what happened in my personal experience living with someone like that for almost 5 years Thank you for this video , very informative!

[@sandracaezza7234]

When I said at one point, this is emotional abuse,he had no comment. He did not respond to many things,leaving the conversation in limbo always. It added to isolation for me. Never committing to do anything together. I gained a lot of weight. Lost 40 now, my yoga teacher stated “ you lost 175 lb of toxic waste. Six months out, I’m feeling so much better. Thank you Dr M, these do help so much, great community.

[@bNastyPDX]

Your previous videos helped me understand my ex sister-in-law and now this video helped me understand my dad. Thanks for all your work! Looking forward to the deep dive on male covert narcissistics.

[@resonatingspirit]

Thank you this has changed my life

[@demigordon2937]

Is great content. Also the example of what healthy vulnerability is and the two way interaction is priceless for someone like me that doesn't know what a good example is.

[@judithc2335]

Thank you Dr Malkin! Your videos are so informative and helpful. Please keep doing them!

[@CraigMalkin]

You’re so welcome!

[@pamelalee9101]

Thank you, Dr. Malkin, you and some of the other Dr.s on KZbin have been so helpful in helping me understand the last year. Could you put together a reading list for people in my situation. I started listening last week and you solved a huge problem in my life. I had never heard of echoist ,but I am exactly that. It fits my issues perfectly. It is extremely difficult to find help with my complicated family problem of covert narc husband, echoist me and 2 alienated adult sons and a lot of intergenerational trauma on both sides. Is there some books or other suggestions you might have for someone like me? I cannot afford $600/month to spend on a therapist. I am reading your book now.

[@CraigMalkin]

Reading list is a great idea!

[@dawndeeearven1616]

Thank You Dr. Malkin for sharing your advices and guidances with Us. I find myself recommending your book and test A lot!!! 🤗 Your own story has helped me NOT go backwards into feeling the ‘victim hood’ mindset. Plus I realized I I have Already Given forgiveness to the One’s in My life.

[@timd.9778]

what test? is it free online?

[@dawndeeearven1616]

@@timd.9778 yes I believe it’s free

[@vishalpuri3842]

GOD MUST SIT IDLE THESE DAYS. THIS GUY DOING HIS WORK

[@mthomas3547]

Okay, I'm getting your book.

[@CraigMalkin]

hope you love it!

[@kathiemihindukulasuriya1538]

This is very enlightening. I have dealt with one overt and one covert narcissist, and even though I felt both were mean, the overt aggression and intimidation by the overt narcissist made me feel that I was in physical danger. However, someone I went to school with was a covert narcissist and when his wife left him, he killed her, then himself. It was as if he felt entitled to a relationship, but was not confident in his ability to easily replace his wife, so he punished her for leaving - rather than moving on quickly and letting everyone know how superior his current relationship was.

[@avagreen4649]

Great video! :)

[@CraigMalkin]

Thanks for stopping by Dr. Green. Thank *you* for the amazing research!

[@bloominarty839]

!!!!!!! Very surprising about coverts being physical

[@NAJAlliance]

Covert narcissists are big phonies...another GREAT video and info, Dr. Malkin! Thank you!

[@margaritaalvarez8462]

Thanks again!

[@LisaRichards_123]

My ex used to rage, slam doors and sulk, but if I asked why, I never got an answer. It happened repeatedly. No matter how many times I asked. Your video, unless I am misunderstanding it, doesn’t sat what the purpose of their emotional demonstration is.

[@TimBadger-w7d]

My narc wife rages, is physically abusive and breaks things around the house. I’m not an expert but have experience of these behaviors. I think it’s about 2 things: Control and getting the attention that she didn’t get in her disregulated childhood.

[@in-serenesanity4514]

Dr Craig, thank you for your videos, the only flaw about which is the fact they are not very frequent - and would be great to hear you speak a bit on how Covert Narcissism might have (or not) an overlap with ASD (Asperger's). Look forward to more postings from you!

[@CreeksideDwellers]

Would DBT, or CBT be effective therapies for those of us that feel we fall under the spectrum of Echoism? Is there other therapy options you could recommend?

[@CraigMalkin]

Attachment-based therapies will probably be more effective. They emphasize emotion, emotional change, and transforming blocks to attachment security. Look at eft, ifs, aedp, schema therapy for example Also somatic experiencing

[@CreeksideDwellers]

Thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate all that you do!

[@meditationgirl8593]

Thank you ..... this was so much what I have experienced. Can a person vacillate between the two?

[@CraigMalkin]

Absolutely

[@joyceandrews8094]

This is good information for those who do not know what narcissism is. But I would like to hear about how to protect against a narcissist. i already know the best way is to leave. When you are elderly and dependent, that may not be possible. I already understand the difference between cover and overt and their tactics. I am wanting to know how to protect from them which the title of this video would leave me to believe.

[@sallydaly5597]

Thank you.

[@dawndeeearven1616]

Thank You Again!!! ☮️💟😊☯️🌈🌈💓🥰🧚🏻♾♾

[@CraigMalkin]

You are so welcome

[@jiminy_cricket777]

Interesting that your talk, and the findings you're presenting, identify this pattern of emotional display, kind of falling to pieces incoherently to get the other to caretake. And you're talking about this in the context of narcissism, but surely this comes up in NPD as well as other personality disorders - borderline and hysteric come to mind here, especially BPD. How might it look slightly different depending on what sort of character pathology is particularly central to a certain person? Covert narcissism is a feature of various types of personality pathology, I would think; how did the paper you're discussing talk about this issue, if it did?

[@jeffm8206]

Didn't you say there was no such thing as covert narc in a previous video?

[@CraigMalkin]

no--I said what people are describing as covert narcissism isnt covert narcissism at all, but covert abuse, which all types of extreme narcissists engage in

[@drewjones1758]

What if you are the covert narcissist? I know that you have given advice on what to do if you think you may be the narcissist but I was wondering if you had any specific thoughts if you display this type of narcissism. I’m bi-polar 2 and after watching a number of your videos, I realized that during my depression phases I had/have been falling into those lines of thinking and engaging in abusive behavior towards friends and loved ones. My hypomanic phases also tended to be accompanied by narcissism but of the more grandiose type that seemed to cause less problems. Usually I’d just over do it working out or want to show off to friends etc. Thinking about it, I wonder if you could talk about narcissism as it relates to bipolar disorder in general.

[@vmedina5515]

Emotionality = mimicry

[@khurramawan6338]

Covert narcs become really overt during devaluing and discard stage in their intimate relationships

[@Maria-cd5bz]

Thank you Dr Malkin, what about in the case of woman? Mothers, siblings?

[@phine999]

I am curious about this too...are there tests for detecting these types of people?

[@jlae7966]

How do you make sense of someone who seems vacillate between the two?

[@Moonlight.Melon.Mounter]

Please do a follow up on the gender differences

[@wildhorses6817]

?????????????? Thank you. Please address the The Kind, Quiet Dating period which changes abruptly after the marriage. There were no red flags and after the marriage the control, disagreeableness and threats begin. His brother was later diagnosed with bipolar disorder. ?????????????????

[@edgreen8140]

Sounds like millions passive aggressive negativistic pattern.

[@Nando_lifts2021]

Wait I like looking at myself in the mirror for a bit... not everyone laughs at my jokes. I think I have low spectrum narcissist traits. Maybe a 5 or 6.

[@fidelmashelton9491]

👍❤🙏

[@matilda4406]

explanation was not clear to me, emotions and emotionality

[@annesom5648]

Overt and covert has nothing to do with introversion and extroversion. Bad generalities rhag will make people fall in traps. Some extroverts are covert narcissists. They just hide the grandiosity and still do wonderful in social situations.

[@CraigMalkin]

No. Empirically, covert narcissism correlates with introversion and overt with extraversion By definition, they are introverted; they're shy, self, doubting, often self deprecating and anxious. These are simply empirical facts. What you're describing, is widespread misconception based on people who don't understand the concepts or the research behind narcissism and aren't familiar with the journal studies . Covert narcissists, don't hide their grandiosity. And they absolutely do *not* do a wonderful job in social situations You're confusing covert narcissism with psychopathy and covert abuse I apologize for being snippy about this, but I've grown tired of people who haven't studied narcissism their whole lives Psychsplaining to me what it is and being completely wrong. .

[@annesom5648]

Totally wrong and please don’t spread that belief.

[@annesom5648]

Totally wrong and please don’t spread that belief.

[@annesom5648]

Totally wrong and please don’t spread that belief.

[@annesom5648]

Totally wrong and please don’t spread that belief.