Cross or Crucifix? - Dr. John Bergsma

[@zacmystr]

A throne, without its King, is just a chair.

[@cominghomenetwork]

As someone once put it-- a cross by itself is a device of torture and execution. A cross with Christ depicted on it is the ultimate symbol of love.

[@_ace_6457]

I am a Baptist that wears a crucifix, I believe also that it reminds me of the pain he went through.

[@Grandlett]

that's cool now become Catholic

[@catholicfemininity2126]

Can't have the cross without Jesus.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

*23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles* (1 Cor 1:23) This is my response. Very biblical.

[@rocdeca77]

I had a protestant coworker ask me why Catholics wore a crucifix and that Christ had resurrected, I told him that the crucifix REMINDED us of our Lords sacrifice every day so we could change our lives.

[@alexchristopher221]

Without his sacrifice, there could be no resurrection. "It is necessary that the Son of Man suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, be killed, and be raised the third day" (Luke 9:22).

[@alexchristopher221]

And of course, 'A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us' (2 Tim 2:11-12).

[@row1landr]

Yes, my protestant friends say the same thing. ...."He is no longer on the cross" and I explain that this image reminds us of the suffering He went through. ..... and then I say, that you have no concerns about putting a nativity scene in your yard at Christmas time, well, Jesus grew up, He is no longer in a baby cradle/manger. ......that usually makes them understand. And the nativity reminds us of so many things..... John 3-16,

[@mariab.774]

row1landr Good explanation. Didn't know Protestants had issues with the crucifix

[@row1landr]

@@mariab.774 yes,......and the crucifix also reminds us of John 3:16. The protestants are very good at telling why Jesus died. .....to save us, but, they never reflect/teach about why He lived......to establish His Kingdom. His Kingdom in heaven awaits us while His Kingdom here on earth grows, flourishes, and survives, even amongst this time of trial. The protestants love and are devoted to the King, it's just His Kingdom they reject. Listen to the talk by Tim Gray for his story on how we have lost our stories and history and how we should put things back into proper priorities. His talk is called Religionless Spirituality (may be on KZbin )

[@eduardohoover2127]

This is exactly what I've been saying since I went to RCIA in 2008, "The Protestants view the Cross from the backside where there is no Sacrifice." It's not because the Lord is risen the Cross is bare but it's because they renounce the true Sacrifice of the Mass.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

There is a hymn that explains perfectly why the crucifix is a lovely symbol - to the tune Breslau: We sing the praise of Him who died Of Him who died upon the cross The sinner's hope let men deride, For this we count the world but loss. Inscribed upon the cross we see in shining letters, 'God is love'; he bears our sins upon the tree; he brings us mercy from above.

[@annfrost3323]

I'm sorry but I've never seen a crucifix with any written messages God is Love or other quotes. The only letters that appear in a crucifix are INRI, initials in Latin for Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews (Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum). It was placed by Pontius Pilate as a reason why he was convicted and crucified.

[@yakublugun1945]

Bless us oh, Lord during this lent to become good Catholic.

[@denisemaslowski1609]

There is no power from an empty cross

[@Oldparson220]

My response to a so called bible Christian who asked if we did not believe in the resurrection. My response was, with the empty cross I assume you dont believe Jesus died for you.

[@aliu8914]

Some Protestants, they don't even want to have symbol crucifix in their church buildings or their homes at all. They think it is idolatry. It's such a narrow minded interpretation.

[@tttgaming8762]

Especially because the exodus chapter that states it is 20 and 5 chapters later the same God tells them to make Cherabims and a bronze snake.

[@4SyriaTruth]

Much love fr Brazil

[@janpetsch620]

Interesting, having grown up Catholic, I never knew that the protestants didn't use them even though most of my family was indeed Protestant.

[@jesusacuna309]

I knew it was a thing, but it never /hit/ me until a good friend of mine went like "My mom and I were wondering why Catholics put Jesus on the cross, it's really confusing."

[@peaceandjoy2568]

I never would have chosen the cross that I now carry had it been left up to me. So God My Father gave it to me because the cross is the process where I become like His Son Jesus and where I am crucified and I die with Him in order to share in His wonderful Resurrection. I am certain too that in giving it to me He held me by the hand and He has never left my side. So, even though I may feel afraid , I say yes to the Lord, trusting completely in His love for me.

[@lindakyota]

Thank your the sharing!

[@tradcatholic]

Thank you.

[@TyroneBeiron]

Listening to this in July 2020, on Dr Bergma's observation that Protestant spirituality tends towards the avoidance of suffering because 'Jesus did it all for us', reminds me of the general disposition of today's 'Cancel Culture', which is based on a falsehood or perhaps a false concept of 'truth' and 'freedom'.

[@costernocht]

That's right. And no concept whatsoever of forgiveness.

[@michellegutierrez2119]

I had the privilege in assisting in religious groups at my job and had to change a room of services for different regions for the inmates & patients…I’m a Christian raised as a catholic 😊

[@albertlasva5094]

You're great .!!

[@__seeker__]

3:41 Not sure which denomination(s) he’s referring to, but that’s certainly not the mentality of the Protestantism with which I was raised. The Protestantism I know always stressed individual responsibility.

[@capecodder04]

I loved your conversion story. It was very interesting, very funny and very entertaining. It's called: "The top three reasons why I became Catholic and always will be." I highly recommend to anybody that hasn't seen this to watch it.

[@michaelofsydney6128]

That was nice. Had never thought about it. Then I noticed the cross I wear around my neck is bare though the cross on my bed table has the crucified Christ.

[@paulmiller3469]

That seems true to me; Catholic theology is more incarnate while Protestant theology is more theoretical (as well as 1,500 years younger).

[@marcosross790]

O ye of little understanding, Protestants are full members of the Catholic Church. Since ye have Jesus still nailed to the cross, ye must be of the Roman version. Ye amuse me, talking about Protestant beliefs, and ye not knowing who ye are yourselves. A pope in days long past did away with an important commandment. One of the ten, took another and split it in two, so he would have ten to suit and fit his "religion". The Roman tradition. It forbid the use worship and making of Images of things in Heaven. Since " we Protestants " do believe Jesus is in Heaven, we feel it wrong to make an image of Him. If ye believe the Pope, then by all means make ye, your images. If you want to follow Jesus. Dump your Gods of stone, wood and cement.

[@paulmiller3469]

@@marcosross790 I'm a Catholic convert. I spent time in Lutheran and Baptist churches. I'm glad I amuse you, because your objection about Catholic dropping of one of the Ten Commandments amuses me. We all have the same verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy. You're talking about our catechetical summaries, which you have as well. We only know the Ten Commandments as ten because they are elsewhere called the Decalogue. But, in actuality, there are 16 different commandments, so to get to 10, things had to be consolidated in those summaries, whether Protestant or Catholic. The funniest thing to me is by your interpretation of a commandment against images, God Himself actually broke the same when He instructed Moses to have artisans craft images to decorate the Tent that was built to contain the Ark (itself including crafted images) later in Exodus. Occam's razor - the simpler explanation is usually the right one. What is simpler? That God broke His own commandment, in a way that wasn't understood by any Jew or Christian until the Protestant Reformation, or that your interpretation is wrong?

[@paulmiller3469]

@@marcosross790 Of course, part of your disconnect and my former disconnect is a lack of understanding of the distinction between images crafted for decoration and images crafted for which sacrifices are made. And a lot of that goes back to Protestant misunderstanding of worship. When worship is reduced to only prayer (a fundamental misunderstanding of Sacred Scripture), it puts one on a slippery slope to all sorts of misinterpretations.

[@rhwinner]

@@marcosross790 Study the Church and the Church Fathers and tell me what the Church has always thought and believed, and then get back to me.

[@markv1974]

@@paulmiller3469 hmmmp i dont understand why protestants label religious decorations as idolatry. The temple in jerusalem was a work of art for the edification and worship of God.. using Ross’s logic, the temple at jerusalem, moses, and the prophets and even Jesus (who also went to temple) would all be idolaters. In the same way, protestants often elevate the bible to near godlike status. I once had a protestant tell me that the bible is self interpreting, has a will and a mind of its own... i think he got confused between logos/Christ/God incarnate and between the inspired “message/words” handed by God in the bible.

[@fadibuni]

Not only Protestants have a cross. The Syriac tradition usually has a glorified cross, the sign of victory over death.

[@peejay1943]

Paul writes about the one new man with Jew and Gentile but it is going to be something fantastic to bring together protestant and catholic in to a fully united Body of Christ.

[@Msc762]

Amen

[@alexchristopher221]

Suffering and death are still a reality despite Christ's "work" on the Cross. Protestants appear to think of Christ's sacrifice as being a past event, not unlike our justification in their view, but it's the crucifixion that is past in real time. When Paul speaks of our Lord's sacrifice, it's in the present tense. He refers to the crucifixion and death of Jesus (the historical offering of himself by his death on the Cross) in the past tense. There is no visible sign of the merits of Christ's perpetual or ever-present sacrifice with him not being on the Cross. ' A barren cross only reminds us that Jesus was taken down from it after he died. His sacrifice is a hidden premise, so to speak. 'If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God' (Heb 10:26-27). Jesus is interceding for us daily in the heavenly sanctuary as both our high priest and sacrificial victim though he was crucified and died on the cross only once as a sacrificial sin offering unlike the Levitical lambs that were slaughtered repeatedly at Passover year after year.

[@HeartNDagger18]

Christ has risen

[@alexchristopher221]

@@HeartNDagger18 " But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" - 1 Corinthians 1:23. Christ would not have arisen if he hadn't been crucified on the cross. We mustn't divorce the two events. "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation." - Hebrews 5:8-9.

[@HeartNDagger18]

Mathew 28 5-6 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid,(A) for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said.(B) Come and see the place where he lay. The empty cross symbolises both his suffering AND his defeat of the cross. I am sure the devil loves to see Jesus still on a cross.

[@alexchristopher221]

@@HeartNDagger18 Like I said, unless Christ was crucified, he wouldn't have arisen. And he was crucified on a cross. The crucifix emphasizes Jesus' sacrifice-his death by crucifixion, which we believe brought about the redemption of mankind. It symbolizes a concrete reality and a pivotal point in salvation history. The cross isn't a vacant symbol of a past event that is now over. Jesus did not merit our redemption by being taken down from the cross - but by hanging on it. Unfortunately, Protestants (who have no connection with historical Christianity whatsoever) have turned Christ's sacrifice into a mental concept. This is the product of a neo-Gnostic mindset. So, your citation of Matthew 28 makes no sense. You mustn't divorce the two events. Anyway, most Protestants don't believe that they have to do anything for their eternal reward. The idea of having to suffer to gain admittance into heaven is repulsive to them. Thus, I see your vantage point. Now, concerning the devil, he'd prefer that Jesus was never on the cross in the first place. So, an unoccupied cross must be a consolation to him. He must be delighted by the abstract Protestant image. I consider this passage to be the 4th temptation of Christ: And saying: "Vah, thou that destroyest the temple of God, and in three days dost rebuild it: save thy own self: if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross" (Matthew 27:40). No, the devil doesn't want to see Jesus on the cross because it points to his defeat. The crucifix is successfully used in Catholic exorcisms because it reminds him that his time is short. You should witness how a possessed person writhes and screams when touched by a blessed crucifix.

[@HeartNDagger18]

You are wrong, the devil did put Jesus on a cross though Jesus sacrificed himself and knew what he had to do, the devil would have no power if it was not for God in heaven who allowed him to do so, Jesus conquered sin through his sacrifice and not submitting to the devil. The empty cross the cross itself symbolises the pain and torture Jesus endured and represents that he is no longer on the cross. Do you not find it depressing seeing Jesus still on a cross even though he is not on a cross anymore? Yes I know we do have king suffering on earth, the world is in a fallen state and Jesus is our redeemer our salvation, it is not works that gets you into heaven apart from faith and following Lord Jesus Christ for Jesus said no man is good, only GOD is good.

[@watermain48]

I've never understood why Protestants object to seeing Jesus suffering on the cross for us. I still don't get it. It's like being reminded of what Jesus went through on our behalf offends them.

[@RockerfellerRothchild1776]

Why does the risen Christ offend you? What's the sadistic desire to dwell on a bloody torture?

[@catholicfemininity2126]

There was this joke: "Why do protestants worship an execution device?"

[@UncommonEyes]

Near Tucson years ago I went to a retreat at a Catholic retreat. I’m only a little bit Catholic due to having gone to a Catholic kindergarten (only one in town those many years ago. Told my mother I wanted to be a Catholic nun! She said I’d have to be a Protestant nun. Back to the retreat. In the chapel there was a huge crucifix in the center of the back wall. All I could think about it was “they missed the rest of the story.”

[@StanleyPinchak]

Except they celebrate Christ's resurrection every Sunday and additionally celebrate Easter for an entite season of 50 days. Catholics are Easter people. Look up John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily. Christ is risen!

[@crossbearer6453]

So we shouldn’t be reminded of His great sacrifice?? We are not Easter people And we pray to Jesus Christ knowing well He has risen Such ignorance you have shown

[@crossbearer6453]

You going to a Catholic kindergarten doesn’t make you Catholic Not even a little bit

[@mikelopez8564]

@@StanleyPinchak sure. You can’t have one without the other. Yet Protestant criticisms only illustrate their truncated kerygma.

[@tomithompsonpsy.d.909]

Our Lord didn't promise a rose garden. In fact, Jesus' words recorded in one place in the Holy Gospel are these" But beware of people, for they will hand yoy over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans." St. Matthew 10,17-18. He also said that when they hate you, it is because they hated me first." As followers of Christ, we will not escape suffering altogether. However, I believe there is a demarcation: We can avoid needless suffering as we pay attention and avoid making the same mistakes we've made before and the same faulty decisions. Lastly, our Lord emphasized that those who take up their cross are the ones worthy of Him and are His true disciples.

[@healhands5760]

Paul said: "We preach Christ crucified."

[@francisfernandes8616]

Crucifix is must without crucifix one can not be Christian

[@catholicfemininity2126]

Having the cross without Jesus doesn't make any sense because when he died on the cross and was taken down and buried, I'm sure they took down the cross as well. They say an empty cross symbolizes Christ's rising, well he wasn't invisible when he rose. He went to see Mary Magdalene and the apostles, plus his mom no doubt. They even saw him ascend to Heaven.

[@Jan-Maggie]

Both are good.

[@lmorter7867]

The crucfix focus is on death and suffering while empty cross is focused on hope and Life.

[@bencirobg]

On the contrary, one may claim that the crucifix focus is on the value of redemptive suffering, hence hope, while the empty cross focus is on an instrument of torture, hence death and suffering. Also, let's not forget that what was found empty was the tomb, not the cross.

[@lmorter7867]

@@bencirobg He came down off the cross so the cross was empty. I'm not saying that the cross doesn't symbolize his suffering of course it does. Without it we have no salvation but without the resurrection our salvation would have died on the cross with Jesus. We should look at the cross and acknowledge that our sin is the reason he suffered and died but when we realize this and repent our focus should be on the resurrected Christ and our future hope.

[@espevillasenor4060]

And Christ is continues to suffer for mankind, that's why we need to see the Corpus.

[@lmorter7867]

@@espevillasenor4060 What do you mean he continues to suffer for mankind? Can you show me in scripture where it says this? We know he died once for all - "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God." - Romans 6:10. He is now our High Priest sitting at the right hand of the Father - Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. - Romans 8:34 "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. - Hebrews 4:14-16

[@khongcogihetdau]

@@lmorter7867 stood a Lamb as it had been slain Revelation 5:6 (KJV) 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

[@karenbaconhoward9185]

When we die do we go straight to heaven

[@bencourtney2269]

Yup, purgatory undercuts what Jesus did for us on the cross. Thank God for His grace

[@MGR1900]

The symbol of suffering has far greater depth than an empty piece of wooden proclaiming Christ has risen.

[@jesussotelo4775]

A Cross without Christ is just a piece of wood.

[@elizabeteborn5223]

That is not Jesus on the cross! It is a graven figure of a man on the cross!

[@douglaspaterson5269]

​@@elizabeteborn5223 The man represents JESUS CHRIST.

[@HeartNDagger18]

Surely an empty cross would be better as it has a double meaning, he suffered on that cross and is now not on the cross as he has risen. I suppose it serves a purpose for those who are new to the faith to see what Jesus went through, however if you already know and have that image in your mind, then an empty cross would probably be better as it is true Christ has risen, that’s more positive, he has risen and is no longer on that cross and has power over the devil.

[@snesable]

i don't see how showing Jesus on the cross is any different to not showing Him on the cross... empty or not He was on it and it happened, we obviously know He came back to life. Whether you show what He died on empty or with the body of Christ attached doesn't change the fact we love Jesus and wish to show an outward expression of respect to the good Lord. God can see our hearts. Love you brother, God bless you Brother.

[@annfrost3323]

I'm used to the crucifixes, religious paintings and statues in the Church. But, I visited the Cathedral in Seville Spain during Holy Week.... now, that was shocking and very bloody even for a Catholic. 😨

[@justthink8952]

Protestants uses the commandment "thou shall not make graven images of anything on earth or in heaven... " to condemn the Catholics for having statues, paintings, icons. But guys, is the cross an image? Isn't the cross associated with religion?

[@elizabeteborn5223]

Things that are alive???

[@justthink8952]

@@elizabeteborn5223 Statues of Jesus are dead. Crosses are dead. But both associated with Jesus Christ. So, what do you want to convey by your question?

[@pemcortes9467]

I see, now i know why we have this entitlement culture, avoidance of pain and suffering and convenience everything. Christ suffered for us so we need not suffer. How childishly immature! Christ suffered for us to know how to suffer. We can not escape suffering while we live. We can not go to heaven without any suffering and sacrifice. Remember Jesus is the way. He showed us the way by his words, life and death.

[@texaslocoman1]

Una Cruz vacia es poder pero Cristo crucificado en Ella mas poder

[@rhwinner]

What do vampires and protestants have in common?

[@markv1974]

Theyre both driven away by a crucifix? 😂😂😅. Or that they can seemingly and magically multiply even when dead. Protestantism has more than 30 thousand sects now in the 500 or so years before it started. Catholicisim with 24 sui uri churches across the world with 1.3 billion is still the same one church for more than 2 thousand years. 😅

[@kameijohnwilson9208]

I like this one😍

[@cantrait7311]

Good one I’ll use it thanks

[@mick1gallagher]

How much money is john making rrom the god racket

[@cynthiax56]

There can be no ressurrection without the crucifixion first. A cross without the body of Jesus is incomplete.....lacking...Just as Jesus without Mary, bible without church and faith without works. All these things must go together for complete truth. when you remove any of these things, you have incomplete knowledge / truth.

[@Kitiwake]

Protestantism..... Jesus at a distance.

[@HeartNDagger18]

Christ has risen

[@rhwinner]

@@HeartNDagger18 ...with holes in his hands and feet....

[@Carlos101010101]

I refer all Protestants to 1 Cor. 1:23.

[@user-fy2ox9ep9t]

The inscription "INRI" on the Cross of Christ was the identity card of Jesus. Therefore, when Catholic Church has the complete replica of the Cross of Christ, the Crucifix, it means the Cross of Jesus of Nazareth not the cross of one of the thieves who had no identity card - an empty cross- no body, no card. Thank you, doctor for explaining in a lace of simple philosophy and theology.

[@marion4827]

Hope traditional catholic, not novus ordo.

[@dayflaubert]

@@justinjustinjustin10 thank you. Oh mine, i cant stand this people anymore. They want to obey and respect the church until the point they want to.

[@jrt1776]

So funny...

[@frederickanderson1860]

No Gethsemane no Calvary again you misapply scripture.

[@markdupuis4896]

Numbers 21:8 & 1 Corinthians 2:2. Catholics are just stuck in the past is all.

[@Cube_Ernator1077]

You're "probably" right. The Holy Church "stuck in the past" is the Catholic Church, established by Saint Peter, over 15 centuries ago. Before the Reformation. Protestants like to PRETEND the History of how the Holy Catholic Church began, Never existed!

[@markdupuis4896]

@@Cube_Ernator1077 I was just playfully being snarky. I'm a devout Catholic focused on Christ and him crucified.

[@Cube_Ernator1077]

@@markdupuis4896 Ah! Forgive my sharp reply! I forget sometimes I'm among Friends!

[@tomin_kurisunkal]

@@markdupuis4896 lol

[@rhwinner]

Let bygones be bygones, huh? What a deficient understanding of the gospel!