"CrossFit Athletes Are Natural" - CrossFit Coach

[@crossfitbilly]

I am almost 60 years old. I have been an athlete my entire life. One thing I know is, that if a sport has a trophy that says your are the best, then there are people willing to do anything to get it, that's human nature. There are clean people at the top and there are those that have used drugs to get there. Last year there was a professional canoe racer who was suspended for three years by USADA for PEDs.

[@Pyasa.shaitan]

It’s only, the Well to do who are doing CrossFit. Most of them are idiots who also invested most of there life savings in Crypto.

[@dhedge9418]

@@Pyasa.shaitan wow I can't tell if you are super wise and aware of the compulsive psychology to which drives these type of individuals or if you are just a soy boy that is threatened by anyting masculine🤔

[@geraldfisher6475]

@@dhedge9418 all of them

[@yoeyyoey8937]

@@dhedge9418 where did that come from?

[@yoeyyoey8937]

I don’t think there’s really clean people at the top, it’s gonna end up being a selection towards drug use if it’s not enforced clinically and socially.

[@jimmytheweasel857]

It’s not even the PED usage that frustrates people, it’s the blatant dishonesty or sugar coating of the truth most people find insufferable

[@bcspride]

Mike Mentzer trained high intensity. He also used steroids.

[@zacktelander]

yes! this is him!

[@juha9452]

@@zacktelander gymnastics @ 5:40 ?

[@seanm3933]

It wasn't high intensity like Crossfit. He believed in doing one set per body part (typical bodybuilding exercises like leg extensions) to failure. He argued that one set was enough and anything more was overtraining and/or a waste of time. He called it high intensity but it was really minimal training to failure, 1 set of 8-12 reps.

[@CoreyShelton57]

A professional wrestler once told me a secret he told me just about every athlete takes steroids

[@TrainAndAble]

Arnold Schwarzenegger trained high intensity. He also used steroids.

[@rubixmonkey0839]

Tour de France is about recovery...take that for what it's worth.

[@hollismallory2757]

Right

[@ingotrue5324]

…it’s about drugs… nevertheless still impressive.

[@noele.4361]

Tour de France is an event and not a sport lol.

[@kc6031]

Exactly 😂

[@RogueCylon]

Recovery and endurance. EPO was huge for stopping the lactic acid buildup. Imagine the impact in CrossFit of not having lactic acid slowing you down.

[@aggrospud7698]

I think what bothers me the most as someone who enjoys doing CrossFit workouts is that most crossfitters at the affiliate level refuse to believe top athletes take PEDs.

[@jamesmichael7448]

Is it any different than most people believing their favorite NFL or NBA athlete is prob on PEDs? Most people are ignorant of that reality. I wouldn’t say it’s a CrossFit only problem

[@paddlefitdad]

Cult mentality

[@arvopenaali896]

It's a sport for people who are bad at sports - denial is integral.

[@henrikozaragic1148]

True

[@BernhardKohli]

@@arvopenaali896 What is your rationale for that statement? Are you saying Functional Fitness is not a sport and if yes, why? And what do you define as "bad"?

[@wright.boy_]

It would be fascinating if you could find current or past elite CrossFit athletes would would speak with you anonymously and go into detail about what they took or knew of their peers taking.

[@taylormallory8705]

Would be incredible to get that kind of content from an actually known athlete, but with CrossFit being so young I doubt there would be anyone that's "gone to pasture" and not sponsored in some shape or form that would jeopardize that by speaking out

[@16krps]

Andrew Hiller has done quite a few videos on this topic including some anonymous interviews with athletes. Not sure it is exactly what you are looking for but thought I would mention it in case you were interested.

[@hillerfit]

@@16krps not crazy high level but yes competitive athletes

[@Drumz_of_Liberation]

Ian Rhino Danial is a former games athlete who speaks rather candidly about gear use in the upper echelons of the sport. I think as time progresses, more former athletes will come forward (assuming they don't have a vested interest in the sport or any related brands).

[@tcmx712]

Crossfit is like a religious cult, nobodies going to speak out about the big names for risk of getting destroyed

[@viklifts-zk8bl]

The crossfit guy's argument about heart rate and lifting is the biggest bro-science esc bullshit I've ever heard

[@toddapplegate3988]

Absolutely, bro science dominates most explanations in fitness/sports.

[@wright.boy_]

Ben saying “people think you can’t look like Adonis without PED’s” is a straw man. PED realists aren’t saying an elite CrossFit physique or performance is absolutely impossible natural, just that it would be a hell of a lot easier to achieve with the help of performance enhancing drugs. The larger and more lucrative the sport gets, the bigger the incentive to find any advantage, natural or not.

[@keithmerkel7542]

@bigboypants225 your right, it's not possible

[@OriginalMindTrick]

For a lot of the women, it's very questionable if it's possible naturally, even for that top 0.1% genetics. When I see a woman with that GH reversed teenage mutant ninja turtle shell gut with huge traps and capped delts I think "there is no f ing way". Women just can't be big and hard at the same time. When you look like the most jacked male before the era of steroids and you are a 25-year-old woman it looks a bit sus...

[@Mike-sm5kq]

if crossfit are testing their own athletes, why would they mess with ruining their sport, of course everyone is negative

[@AveSicarius]

CrossFit itself is essentially overtraining for any natural athlete, the fact is, PEDs don't just contribute to physique, they contribute to performance. There have been instances of professional athletes from other disciplines switching to CrossFit and ending up injured in record time. There's simply no way the majority of people can train at the intensity some of the professional CrossFit athletes do, achieve the numbers they achieve, and do this all in the same relatively short time frame without PED use. Also, why would they? I mean it's not like PEDs are exactly being strictly regulated, and all the professional CrossFitters, including the women, are sitting at very low bodyfat, are hugely vascular, and pretty jacked, as endurance athletes... I imagine the optimal natural CrossFit body would have much more bodyfat.

[@Barneyfithlawman]

@Big boy pants I suspect the women more than the men. It's just hard for a woman to build muscle of much size

[@Drumz_of_Liberation]

Let it be noted that Ben Berg had to evoke fricking magic to explain the unreal performances and physiques of CF athletes. I think that says everything anyone will ever need to know about this "clean" sport.

[@thepeatboggy]

Yeah its utterly ridiculous that a person trying to explain the physiology resorts to “magic” to explain it

[@justinnewman13]

At first I thought it was just me - he said that and I thought "magic, like witches and wardrobes... sure"

[@brianmeen2158]

@@thepeatboggy yeah the CrossFit community has somehow stumbled upon the secret formula to building a large amount of muscle while staying lean or getting leaner . Ridiculous

[@Miiiiiiighty]

This guy is a clown anyway, nobody gives him any credit, he just had the chance to coach Katrin, who would probably be have been even better with another coach. Then other athletes joined because she was the top girl back then, but his " athletes " showed stagnation or even downgrade through time. The poster girl for that is Brooke Wells who has exploded since she is actually coached by someone competent instead of this clown

[@tristanwegner]

Well, Potions are indeed involved

[@alexioannou8630]

The most commonly used PED in CrossFit is SR-9009. Tiny half life therefore detection time is only 4-6 days with the traditional urine test.

[@santiagoferrari1973]

A SARM right? I think there are safer ones they could take if this stupid antidoping didnt rxist

[@sman53]

It amazing stuff

[@armwrestlingfan6804]

Why it sound like a robot model

[@gagisha2437]

u mean creatine? cmon bro

[@teinestokoe2628]

@@gagisha2437 no he means stenabolic. C'mon bro

[@johnd5619]

when you look at CrossFit's top athletes, they look better than natty pro bodybuilders that spend 100% of their time training for hypertrophy/aesthetics. Its goddamn insulting to try and convince people that top CrossFit athletes are natty.

[@Ainttrippin]

In their defense CrossFitters train WAAAY harder than bodybuilders so it makes sense.

[@kacperkalwarski9417]

@@Ainttrippin crossfit and bodybuilding training is completely different... Strongman athletes train just as hard if not harder at times but they dont look nowhere near like that (yet they are on gear) your point here makes no sense ...

[@davyddocarmocabral2989]

@@Ainttrippin it fucking doesn't. Crossfit trains weight lifting (mostly mtor mediated) and endurance (mostly ampk). This type of training It's not the optimal to build muscle period.

[@oteroa2]

That is simply not true. They do not look better than natty pros and its silly to say that.

[@JinnDante]

@@kacperkalwarski9417 Don't get it mixed up. Everyone works hard but on a different aspect.

[@SilverSlugs16]

First major problem I have with his argument is pretty much what you said, it isn’t that unique. Resistance training done at high cardiovascular intensity is definitely a useful tool but it’s been done plenty and the benefits aren’t a secret. They also have diminishing returns, so scaled up to CrossFit level they don’t suddenly hit a threshold of magical new kinds of adaptation. I was a D1 thrower (track and field) and we used circuits all the time in more conditioning focused blocks. Snatches and clean pulls, into lunges, squats / jump squats, into ohp / jerks, into rows. Lighter weight done for speed, short timed rest. This was done after or before practice, or after a heavy lift. I was D1 but we were mid major - it was great but not some top secret conditioning tool. And the benefits don’t radically expand once you make it your entire workout. And like I said, as throwers we did plenty of very heavy lifts, often in the 3 rep and below range. The idea that suddenly these crossfit studs pop up and discover this training, and that’s why they’re jacked out of their minds, is ridiculous lmao

[@MrAvoutour]

It's the fact that they are doing such extreme high level performances in so many modalities back to back to back over 3 days

[@joecowan3719]

A coach thinking they know if their athletes are not on something is like you knowing your best friend is 100% honest on their tax returns.

[@Crave_Train]

Last month, Jayson Hopper posted that he hit a PR Split Jerk 30 minutes after a 2k row PR of 6:03. No clue what the Split Jerk weight was but that 2k row time is absolutely bonkers. It's the combination of strength, conditioning, and overall volume that makes Crossfit ripe for PEDs

[@Second247]

For the context that row time would have been 4th fastest recorded in 2022 according to Concept2 rankings... In heavy weight males. However indoor rowing is one of those sports where you can do really well with proper body geometry and super high Vo2max without much spending time with the sport itself. I've done my PR 10k row, took some time to recover (and to get my body to straighten out) and hit PR in deadlift during the same session. So it's not that magical to PR in two movements, it's just that very few people even dare to do that. Thou with squat i would not be able to do that. Not denying the use of PEDs but Crossfitters are moving in terrain most people don't dare to wander into and there are some actual valuable insights to be had about combining all aspects of human performance. Sadly all that gets bypassed because PEDs are involved.

[@AveSicarius]

@@Second247 Most people don't dare to wander there because, functionally speaking, doing this on any kind of consistent basis is overtraining, and you will need PEDs to recover. The actual outcome for most professional CrossFit athletes would be very, very different without PEDs. Higher rates of injury, longer recovery times, and so on, all of which would make the sport (if you can really even call it that) even more unsustainable than it already is. Most people will get more progression from just doing a solid set of strength training and maybe some cardio after (because cardio before WILL hit your maximal performance unless you take a significant break), and splitting training into discrete sets. Is there a benefit to pushing yourself? Absolutely, but not in the way professional CrossFitters are doing, not on any consistent basis.

[@Second247]

@@AveSicarius I'm natty and train 900 hours per year (that's 3 hours per day) while having family and job. Combining endurance and strength sports. What is your excuse?

[@michaelkeathley3672]

I just did a 2k row yesterday; 7:36. 6:03 is absolute bananas. That's a 1:30 average 500m split. loooool

[@BeyondLumination]

@@Second247 that’s impressive. What does your recovery look like? Last time I trained 7 days/week with 3 hrs/day I overtrained and injured my achilles after 3 months.

[@j.aguirre-mcmorrow1501]

" Lady and gentleman" always makes me smile

[@stoempert]

*gentlemen

[@danielmsz]

Same here 😂

[@dutchanimal010]

Although it has a lot of specificity, I think sprint swimming at NCAA-level develops some of the adaptation aspects you mention about Crossfit. In addition to the brutal evening practices, we (sprint/mid distance squad) lifted at high intensity 3 mornings of the week before finishing in the pool, and the remaining mornings always included resistance training (sprinting against resistance bands, or with a tether to lift weighted buckets on a pulley, etc). We ended up leaner and a little less bulky than elite Crossfitters but it built a hell of a physique on top of the performance.

[@AveSicarius]

Coming from a swimming background myself, yes sprint swimmers can build a fairly impressive physique, but it's largely development in the back and shoulders combined with low bodyfat that lends itself to this. This also makes sense, back and shoulders are the most important upper body muscle groups involved in swimming, shoulder's especially if you are training for IM and need to get that fly time up, but I would be amazed if you spent any time training, and thus saw any hypertrophy in, your upper arm (biceps and triceps) unless it was on your own time (which coming from a competitive background and also doing calisthenics/weight training on my own time wasn't exactly easy). In my experience most swimmer's, including myself at the time, were exceptionally lean (usually aided by being above average in height) with a well developed back and wide shoulders, and the only guys who looked different to this were usually multi-discipline (there was an Olympic pentathlete who trained with us and he was a bit more jacked than average). There's definitely adaptation there, if anything there's probably more than CrossFit, which is primarily an endurance sport where you just practice rote movements to get them down as fast as possible.

[@dutchanimal010]

@@AveSicarius Shoulda done more breaststroke, would have beefed your chest/bi/tri/quad game ;-) ... but yea the guys who didn't lift hard came out with a lot less muscular development, which is I guess is what you're getting at about "on your own time"

[@krossxeye660]

Swimming is a great tool for balancing physique and size loss, looking at even high school swimmers who are on the slightly larger side have pretty good physiques

[@quentonnankivell956]

What part of that training is making female jaws grow

[@joeldoxtator9804]

Yes, high intensity produces great results. However, high intensity also requires a LOAD of recovery before the next high intensity event or you will injure yourself. The only way around this recovery time is to enhance yourself and the WOD structure of crossfit makes enhancement an absolute necessity at high intensity if you are to remain injury free.

[@piotrriabych5727]

Ironically, Bergeron was the first crossfit athlete who was tested positive by using peds in 2010

[@ryanmeidl2985]

To be fair he popped for methylhexanamine back when that was in Jack3d

[@RobertGriffith9]

@@ryanmeidl2985 yeah, loads of people got popped for it, not just in Crossfit either

[@jasmineshier7254]

Now I didn’t hear this directly, but a pro bodybuilder told me casually in conversation that he had recently trained with a games athlete for fun, who confirmed that he, and many other athletes, take PEDs. Do with that what you will. I think there are a lot of people in the sport that need to start being honest with themselves. Side note, you can take PEDs and not look like you take PEDs. I know a lot of fellas who take steroids, trying their damndest to look jacked, yet don’t look like they’ve lifted a weight in their life. It’s incredibly hard to look hella jacked, with or without PEDs.

[@gleysonstabile]

I used to work in a crossfit box as a physical therapist, and the amount of people there that was on PED's was enormous. And they were not even good at it. I remember one day a coach said to some that they have to reach certain level before starting to use PED. they used drugs before learning how to pull up or snatch more than 125 lb.

[@dfpguitar]

I'm not at all surprised that crossfitters even at local level are on PED's. But I am surprised the coach would give ped related guidance in front of everyone.

[@dfpguitar]

I'm not at all surprised that crossfitters even at local level are on PED's. But I am surprised the coach would give ped related guidance in front of everyone.

[@gregdoucette]

Really good video. Great analysis. Health is wealth. People with The best genetics can of course looks like cross fitters doing CrossFit. You can have jacked legs. Training with a high HR in bike sprints. Looks at many of the velodrome racers. Its kinda like cross fit. Ur heart health is crazy and u also have muscle.

[@dolphin069]

Dude. Pro cycling is full of gear. Has been for a hundred years. Even with the best genetics. Recovery from performance and injury is a major component of PED use when you train and race day in day out, week in week out. All year.

[@ThatGuy-nv7cx]

@@dolphin069​most cyclists have been banned for blood doping during races though, not for substances that promote recovery or muscle building. They’d still LOOK the same without blood doping, they’d just perform worse on race day.

[@Miiiiiiighty]

@@ThatGuy-nv7cx Did you even read what they were talking about ? They are talking about sprinters that do the velodrome events... Not the Tour de France guys... They basically look like 100meter sprinters with bigger legs...

[@FesteringTsar]

@@dolphin069 It's funny... I wonder if you know whose comment you're replying to...

[@RogueCylon]

Take a look at Hillerfit, he’s been opening using TRT as a Crossfit gym owner to show the results. He knows how to pass their tests as well.

[@jasonfu2094]

Prior to Crossfit you could argue wrestlers did similar workouts to crossfitters, insanely intense circuit training basically; but I don't think they were doing 3 a days, 6 times a week

[@seanm3933]

I would say gymnasts have a similar intensity to crossfit. To me it seems like gymnastics was the inspiration, especially since that was Greg's background.

[@thepeatboggy]

“Theres a magic to that” “They’re doing what hasn’t been done before” 😬

[@sethwood1676]

I've had to explain this to so many crossfit bros and I workout at a crossfit gym. I actually really enjoy the training personally but, like if you don't think those people at the highest level aren't going to do everything they can to get the money and sponsorships they can and so they can recover better that they are wrong.

[@nathanzloty8050]

He Zack, Im sure youve seen clarence kennedy's videos on anti-doping, would love a long-form podcast type video with you and Clarence! Im sure lots of your viewers would be interested in a Clarence collab as well. keep up the quality content!

[@henrikozaragic1148]

That would be fucking awesome

[@jchope777]

THIS.

[@JarlHrodberht]

Mike Mentzer is the name you are looking for.

[@samuelabbott5117]

The Soviet hockey team was doing CrossFit in the 80s, it’s not new or special. Those hockey players did not look like CrossFitters. Also the Soviets where on drugs too, the only thing that has changed is the quality, and better application of drugs.

[@m.a.5028]

So much this. I have tried explaining to CF kool-aid drinkers that I was training with this methodology in the 80s/90s before it had a name in 2 sports: swimming and rugby. The only thing Glassman did was give it a name, market it, and make it competitive.

[@robschilke]

The sad thing is the CrossFit Games isn't recognized as a sport in the eyes of USADA and as a result is why we will never see any testing from USADA. CrossFit will continue to use a third-party testing vendor of their choice and decide whether or not to publicly pop someone or not.

[@Rizzerio1]

Healthy bodies LoL. Scott Panchik's knees, or lack there of would probably agree that destroying your body into your 30's is anything but healthy. Also, I agree about the necessary recovery is impossible without PED's. I did about 2-3 hours of excercise a day, 5-6 days a week for years. Gym lifting about a hour in the morning and a crossfit class mid day. I attempted to train like a games athlete because I wanted to go for a high placing at the box I trained at. All I have to say is, 3 workouts a day, is absolutely impossible, and to maintain that size with all the cardio endurance activities you have to perform is unlikely. I was a friggin twig compared to those guys and it was impossible to gain mass and keep it like they do and I was in my prime early 20's at the time. I felt like a 90 year old man for 3 days after doing 3 workouts in a day. It was physically impossible to recover to do anything but walk for those next 3 days. Those athletes are doing more than just ice baths every day because somehow they are able to train their bodies into an early crippled retirement by their 30's. It's far from healthy and far from natural.

[@gimmerain4days]

TLDR: There is larger than average incentive for CF athletes to use PEDs because (1) recovery is such a large component of elite CF and (2) unlike other sports CF directly trains strength and conditioning movements at high intensity, (3) elite CF training and recovery is already near optimal. Even small use of PEDs will have a large impact because of the nature of the sport. CF needs more testing for us to be confident that athletes are clean.

[@davidking7858]

The performance speaks volumes.

[@michaelkeathley3672]

The sport of CrossFit and those that have built their names, businesses and reputations on it is entirely dependent upon maintaining the facade that all it's elite athletes are clean. The sport is so new that one or more of the big names (Think: Froning, Panchik, Olsen, Thorisdottir, Horvath) coming up hot would be devastating. While of course I think the athletes are motivated to use gear, I also think the sport itself is motivated to conceal (or simply not test frequently) what some athletes may be doing in order to preserve CrossFit's name. Sure, they may throw us a bone every now and then with a Ricky Garard, who nobody knew at the time, or some masters athlete no one has ever heard of in order to present the illusion that lots of adequate testing is done, but as you said; that's not enough. The likelihood of every podium finisher at the CrossFit Games being 100% clean their entire CrossFit career is zero, in my opinion. It seems impossible to me that anyone, regardless of genetics and programming expertise can spend 3-5 hours in the gym every day, walk around at

[@dfstone377]

The most similar sport I can think of that has high intensity training similar to crossfit would be rugby. I have been playing for 8 years and you really do need it all - strength, speed, endurance, mobility, etc. And let me tell you, the recovery for it takes TIME, certainly not a few hours like what these competitors are showing at big crossfit events.

[@Dracon7601]

Rugby is a good one, I also think wrestling has similar requirements.

[@RGV2300]

Rugby is tough af, but they use peds too. My cousin practices rugby in an amateur level, his buddies have offer them cycles plenty of times, and we are not even talking about a professional scene.

[@marv_168]

7s rugby is probably the closest

[@brianmeen2158]

Yeah the output is pretty insane amongst elite cross fitters .

[@RGV2300]

@@TripodianTT 😂😂😂

[@patriot411]

I have studied biomechanics, human physiology, strength and conditioning, and human performace for 25 years and I can tell you that the telling thing is NOT what the athletes look like, it is in how they are able to perform, especially at the games level. There is nothing physiologically reasonable about what they are able to do (again I am speaking about high level athletes). I am certain that all of these athletes at one time or another in their training protocol are on some sort of PIDs. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The big lie about crossfit is their training mantra " constantly varied functional movements at high intensity" or some horse shit like that. The games athletes don't get to that level by doing the WOD of the day. They train with very structured programing in each respective disipline and hire elite level coaches in wieght lifting, swimming, running ect... Don't believe Greg Glassmans bullshit.

[@wolfsfroth]

Exactly.

[@gimmerain4days]

Except ZT isn't all that impressed with elite CF oly lifts. Maybe regional but not national level strength. Also less impressive when you calculate their running paces, they would get beat by mid to higher level high school track kids.

[@marlows47]

You've taken the words very literally, however, I'll play along. Mayhem Athlete program roughly 2-4 hours of work for the athlete program sent to the masses. In said program, you are on strength cycles. However, none of the other pieces are repeated from week to week. Thus, constantly varied. Glassman did not say your weightlifting had to always be performed at a high intensity. In fact, that is weightlifting, which is higher up on the pyramid than conditioning. The structure is being ready for varied stimulus. Can you do muscle ups with x pairing of movements? Can you run fast, jump high, and snatch? Can you do those things with a heavy bar and few reps or light bar and lots of reps? Then, can you do monostructural work on it's own. Gymnastics on its own. Weightlifting on its own. Elements of sport on its own.

[@Second247]

@@gimmerain4days That's the thing. They might appear to be close but once you start to analyze their numbers their performances appear quite reasonable. I know that i as 40year old natty can be regional in powerlifting and cycling (the sport, not drugs), but getting into national level in either would demand me to either drop weight for cycling or add muscle for powerlifting. Or add PEDs? (dunno, haven't tried). I've reached national level in one sport but at that time i cued most of my resources for that, howering on regional level is much easier input vise. And more fun!

[@triwithlaura3138]

@@gimmerain4days the lifts are usually not good technically compared to Olympic medalists. But thr numbers are impressive when considering fatigue. Same for running. That's the suspicious part. They've often maxed out many times and still perform at a very high level

[@ManOfEthnicity]

You really need to get together with Andrew Hiller he's got to be one of the top guys talking about PED use in CrossFit today.

[@Cyrelltheghosthunter]

I'm surprised no one seems to know this but that bodybuilder you are talking about is Mike mentzer he score a perfect 300 twice only bodybuilder In history to do that

[@josephbloxham3992]

People have been bodybuilding for a hundred years now, trying every type of training. If CrossFit produced Mr. Olympias, we'd have had at least one high level bodybuilder come from that style of training.

[@tylerbelanger2663]

Steve Reeves, I believe is the name you're looking for, in regard to the golden era bodybuilder who trained only 3 times per week.

[@Ainttrippin]

Okay Zack -- so did your boy Matt Fraser do steroids? The best Crossfitter of all time, by far -- is clean?

[@PappaMustafa]

This is like saying "Sumo wrestlers are skinny"

[@CF_Joel]

You do not seem against CrossFit. You are probably right. There are probably more juicers than I want to believe there are. I also didn’t know that CrossFit is based on recovery. I’ve been thinking about that. I’ve heard of “recovery workouts” but never put much thought into it. I should probably focus more on strength and technique and quit trying to Rx every WOD, scale more, as if it’s *recovery*! Thanks, man!!! (if I understood it correctly, I think that’s what I should do, right?)

[@donwod6660]

For six years I was a natural competitive amature bodybuilder ( for real natural). I saw rampant drug use in a natty league. If you want bigger stronger faster EVERY SINGLE YR youre gonna have peds. You cant ask for inhuman outcomes while also asking for totally natty people.

[@handfloboxingreview1673]

Crossfit is where healthy bodies go to get injured by doing exercise with poor technique. The PED's are probably the only thing keeping the top athletes from getting injured as much and recover quickly from injury.

[@FrankZen]

If you're thinking of Dorian Yates, his workout actually made me some of my best gains. 4 sets of 8 per body part, once a week. Amazing. Heavy Duty was good but you burn out after 8 weeks. Mentzer says it's because you need even longer recovery the closer you get to your actual maximum potential.

[@Pnelson938]

I would say he is talking about mike mentzer as he is the golden era body builder who Dorian Yates based his training off of

[@ezekieloconnell6182]

ZT lowkey pushing some of the best content on KZbin

[@fredrichardson9761]

Taking lifts to failure might get you jacked but it's also increases the likelihood of getting injured. Apparently you get nearly the same benefit (at least for strength and hypertrophy) leaving 2 reps in reserve (RPE 8) while also staying out of the injury zone where load exceeds capacity.

[@laouchetabdenour4995]

When I started doing CrossFit the first four months my body had completely changed even my friends they were so impressed how my the transformation was quick, also I used to have a back pain and guess what no more pain because of the CrossFit and very grateful, thank god.

[@nicholaspu]

I think danaher said it on rogan- the more ways there are to win in a given endeavor, physical prowess matters less. The less ways there are to win, physical prowess matters more. So even if you think of a 100meter sprinter vs a miler- a miler can play strategy games to effect the outcome, the sprinter can’t. If you compare a sprinter to a football player you have much wider degrees, or a football player to a tennis player.

[@coach_paul_t]

Whether PEDs or privileged access to a plethora of performance and recovery tools and regimens, people have to understand anyone at any pro level has access to things the regular person does not. Who knows what pro basketball players have at their disposal… but you can still go play a pickup game for good mental and physical health. Separate the sport from the methodology. People can still use CrossFit to get healthy and strong. Just can’t have high expectations of what’s possible.

[@RogueCylon]

You only need an edge and great recovery. I bet they are taking AICAR and doing Tramadol. That will push you through any full day of events.

[@Mr.PotatoAWESOMEFitnessTips]

I run daily, and powerlift at my living room, I look pretty decent for someone that doesn't really account for my diet and drinks a few beers every week, I'm muscular, and if I cut the beers a six pack pops up. I only have 400lbs of plates at home, and there's a Crossfit gym right next to my house, so I went there one day to ask to use their equipment to deadlift a PR. The 3 instructors/owners were pretty straightforward about PED use, one fo them was saucy, the other two were natural, all three looked amazing. They ended up booking me to teach some squat/deadlift technique to their students, 90% of the dudes were all jacked and or shredded, and we ended up talking PEDs extensively, about 80% of the dudes there were natural and looked awesome, and here in brazil, there isn't much stigma on recreational PED use, so there's no reason to lie about it. So my perspective on Crossfit changed drastically from that day forward, the kind of physique you can build naturally with that kind of training is really impressive. I still think that a more precise approach with proper strength training witht he powerlifts and oly lifts, paired with some dedicated hypertrophy work, and building upon your sprinting, running, and jogging is the way to go. Same idea of tapping into several different muscle adaptations, but instead of creating a different approach, using the same concepts those that specialize in each individual modalities would use.

[@benjaminfranklin4149]

I wonder what your opinion is (and the subscriber community and comment section for that matter) on whether or not Mat was clean during his Crossfit career. He's clearly on a different level athletically and mentally than the rest, has the olympic weightlifting foundation, and his parents were stud athletes too. But it is really hard to say for me...

[@Panchover]

I don’t want to believe it but I think he was into them.. the difference in performance btwn him and the rest of them was way too big, he just walked some of those wods while the second best was gassed out two rounds behind

[@adamhinde5864]

At our CrossFit gym we actually run “Aerobic BodyBuilding” classes. Super popular and all of us coaches agree that it’s a fantastic session. Usually 45 mins after the warm up. Rep ranges of the classic 10-12 reps with your best bodybuilding movements mixed with some c2 machines. A lot like Marcus Filly style of training

[@bhubmusic3484]

Mike Metzger was a bodybuilder that worked tempo sets to failure, and would only do 1 or 2 sets to body part, once every few weeks. He died young, but had really interesting training theories

[@citizenoftheninthdivision]

Mike Mentzer made all his gains doing the same volume work as everyone else. Using the same gear. He got 5th place, cried about Arnold winning, became addicted to methamphetamines and gay men. Then died.

[@Miiiiiiighty]

@@citizenoftheninthdivision Good summary

[@ThetaThursday]

I think there is a sport that mimics this adaptation. Wrestling. Constant work capacity with high intensity, prolonged periods of volume training, and non-stop cardio.

[@StevenM1985]

If you are at the top level in any sport, you are taking drugs. Not necessarily because the athlete wants to, but because they have to. If you're great, someone who is really good and on drugs is going to have an advantage. You have to keep up with that. When money is involved, people want to the money. They will do whatever it takes.

[@gkrefft]

That's exactly the point.

[@mjcavs4life22]

I would say that it’s not just his athletes that he could be referring to. He is also an affiliate coach with thousands of people who have gone through his gym and trained. So I think the argument could be made that regular joes at his gym that just train 1 hour a day have achieved a body of those at the highest level but just don’t perform at the highest. So i think he has more than just his high level athletes as an example

[@Oyamanosolo]

Any professional sport has performance enhancing drug. What is at stake it too important. Any activity where you dedicate your life and you can make out your profession from it you have people taking shortcuts/try to have a competitive advantage.

[@CaelanTierney]

I'm going to join you by covering this with a UK / Ireland bias because our testing frequency is abysmal. In 2021 for example Sport Ireland who are over anti doping within Ireland caught 1 athlete for doping, and he was busted for cocaine usage. 0 athletes were busted in 2022. So so poor haha. Great video!

[@austinh681]

Why didn’t you bring this up with Mat Fraser?

[@isenseasoulinsearchforansw1257]

fear

[@WaechterDerNacht]

In the end, as long as a sport isn't WADA sanctioned, they can't tell if they are clean or not. Chances are high that everything that's beneficial will be used. Am i surprised that e.g. in Enduro Mtb (EWS) there were doping cases as soon as they were WADA sanctioned...? No! I am not saying the WADA system is perfect, but it's the best we have. Regarding the training system etc.: look at gymnastics. Those people have incredible physique. I guess that also their endurance isn't as bad as one might think, just due zo the total training time needed during a week. Personally, i have much more of a problem with the CrossFit business model (course length needed to open an official gym etc.) And at the games - teach those people how to ride a bike! That hurts my brain to see that!

[@F8now]

Crossfit guys have a body similar to olympic weightlifters, crossfit girls on the other hand, are much bigger. Who isnt on roids these days? I wouldnt even bet on golfers and chess players lmao

[@ANGLRMZ]

I like that you used the Cleric Beast theme at the end

[@awildstrongmonappears6770]

I find the best way to dismantle. An argument is actually to assume that much of what they are saying is true. In this instance, it might simply mean that Ben is not understanding that the competitive nature of CrossFit is simply selecting for people within the populace, who respond well to this specific cocktail of non-specific stimuli. If you go into any McBox then you’ll find plenty of people who are extremely dedicated and diligent but don’t necessarily look like some of the athletes in question

[@jiv32]

I remember watching a video of brooke ence looking jacked af showing a typical training day for her. She trained like 6 hours a day, 7 days a week, "natural". If those massive traps and delts werent a dead giveaway, the sheer volume of training kinda gave it away.

[@shambolz]

I think the point has to be made that bodybuilders lift to create muscular damage. Crossfitters, correct me if I’m wrong, when they lift they lift to hit specific training numbers (weight and reps). Bodybuilders make exercises harder for themselves for the purpose of muscular hypertrophy. Crossfitters, like many athletes, train for efficient performance. It’s a significant point of divergence.

[@anonym4691]

The simple point is: I like to see the studies that show that high intensity and heavy resistens change the hormonal respons, compared to powerlifting/fighting sport and so forth

[@anonym4691]

It's also laughable there test regim. The test series I follow are tests over at least 6 months. Both a schedual with suprevised tests, and suprise tests, every week.

[@dyoder16]

CrossFit is the Liverking of sports.

[@dewaynemizzell7009]

I only know one crossfit athlete who’s natural. He never makes the games despite being at a fitness level above what most can do.

[@drewe51]

They conducted

[@jedisentinel1499]

I was a religious CrossFitter for years. I shed weight gained enormous strength but I couldn’t break through the plateau that kept me from being competitive. I think I know why. Never knew for sure but “enhancement”was present among some other members.

[@mosesacevedo]

Think you were thinking about Dorian Yates. He trained 4x/wk and claimed his sessions were under an hour.

[@anthonywilliam3761]

I think Frank Zane. He didn't like to go heavy, bacause he was afraid of injuries. So his workouts were always high reps. (12-18)

[@urbanarmory]

It was pretty common in the Golden Era, TBH, you hear a lot of them trained like that

[@statictech7]

Why would anyone think crossfit athletes are natural? Are these people adult children? That is embarrassing

[@kramer1372]

.. most people are just stupid.. truly..

[@spyross2391]

I had a good friend with instagram body. I was sure that he was natural. He was very honest, very good dude. He had god genetics. But later I found that he was juicing. He didnt even compete in anything. I lost every trust I had in anybody.

[@kramer1372]

.. a wise man once said, “everyones on steroids”…

[@littleblackpistol]

Lots of gym bros who do nothing but stare at themselves in the mirror competitively are juicing. Drugs are everywhere, SARMS especially, even among non-bodybuilders. They do it for vanity. They want a specific fashionable look.

[@jz8455]

The sport that comes to mind is 80s and 90s professional wrestling. The amount of stamina some of the Greats like Hogan, Flair or Warrior had while having bodybuilding physiques… Of course all of them natty, what else?

[@jqmviegas]

There's a sport that is more about recovery. Road cycling. It's the sport of the true kings of PEDs.

[@likemy]

good point.

[@marcustaylor670]

MK2866 is my go too, I've tested in mountain bike racing, running, weight training and martial arts. You have to get the dosage right which is different for different sports. Good for your eyesight but it does have sides if you take it too long without a break. Taking gear is the same to me as tuning your car except if you go too far you might die where I can replace my engine.

[@beautifulgirl219]

SARM MK 2866 enters the bloodstream and binds to androgen receptors (like other SARMs). Once it enters the organism - through the bloodstream - it begins its action by regulating androgen receptors with the ultimate goal of encouraging the growth of muscle tissue in the body. For those unfamiliar. C19H14F3N3O3

[@ragir]

A couple of years ago I decided to watch one of the crossfit events. At that point I was in and out of the gym, I wasn't taking training really that seriously, it was just something that I did for health after turning 30 and starting to see the damage 20 years of sitting in front of a computer does to a person. I was stunned by the things these people are able to do day after day and that some of them were even older than me. It really lit me up for a couple of days to change what I do, maybe find out more about corssfit, I had (still have) a small basement gym so I started to try to figure out how can I get to THAT. It never crossed my mind that most if not all of those people were on PEDS, because why would it? It's a competition, right? As someone that was midly interested in fitness up until that point, why would I think that? So I started doing some research, with the goal of learning what crossfit is, how it works, how can I look and perform like those people, not because I want to compete, but to make my life better. And minute after minute, hour after hour I found more and more evidence that these people are lying to me. I tell ya, I felt so mad that they pose as natural athletes, I was SO dissapointed, so disillusioned by the whole fitness industry, I was sure Juji is natural at that point (which I have no problem with, but he should disclose that). Dang man, people think they can get the results they see online and when they don't, they feel like they did something wrong. I stopped training for something like 6 months because of that, I felt like I can't trust anybody in the fitness industry, that everyone is lying. But then I found some good people like you, like Dr. Mike, who's very open about the PEDS, Greg, Larry, people that actually talk about how it works and that made things make sense a bit more. So now I'm sitting here after eating some salmon because I crushed my PB on the bench after coming down to literally two 10kg plates 4 months ago to fix my technique, with some light bodyweight squats because I felt strong. I got better, but I bet not everyone comes back and finds the time to figure things out. These people are literally turning others off of training and making their lives better, I think it's important to talk about this. It's not to stirr drama or to make mad views, it really, really helps people like me.

[@LilBoyHexley]

I think the argument against the "newness" point is that these guys have been looking juiced ever since the early Crossfit games. It's not like we're however many years in and just seeing the fruits of this new paradigm. I remember people saying this same stuff about Crossfit athletes online back in the early 2010s.

[@HeyItsJoe1]

Is that bloodborne in the back?

[@NeilChudleigh]

I believe so.

[@faustorodriguez2697]

Hahahahahahahaha… I got completely distracted. Two things that I love and got me really frustrated. CrossFit and Bloodborne.

[@benallthetime]

A Hunter must hunt

[@DonVanMeer]

You make a great point - forget how they look - how in the heck do they recover from all that intense training day in and day out.

[@BroncoBen123]

I think that you’re right! From my own experience, I’ve never been in better shape in my adult life than when i was doing CrossFit however. I had access to $1 full body scan all through college. I took the test multiple times per year all through my college days and I had less fat and more total muscle mass when i was doing CrossFit compared to when I did bodybuilding

[@lonle6506]

maybe you were just a bad bodybuilder?

[@offeringsoffire]

@@lonle6506 bro bulked and never cut

[@FrankZen]

Ironically, Heavy Duty is basically the most effective workout for natural strength training. Mike Mentzer was the one that was big on it. I got big on it. Getting big isn't the hard part contrary to popular belief. Getting ripped is.

[@kren4449]

If you want to be the best in any sport you have to be willing to do whatever it takes (and have elite genetics). That includes peds.

[@youngsuit]

i once said that i don't think they were on drugs cause there wasn't that much money to be made, and my sister just looked at me and said "THEIR SPORT IS THE GYM." and i didn't have a good counter argument to that.

[@nicholastartaglia4276]

Zack, you kinda criticize crossfit a lot for PEDs and then feature these same fake natties in some videos because you either know them or they agreed to join you for your chat

[@aaronsamuel7127]

He doesn't have to agree with them to have a video with in my opinion

[@nicholastartaglia4276]

@@aaronsamuel7127 he criticized fake natties with a fake natty in the video? Lol cmon now

[@jakobstisen6366]

@@nicholastartaglia4276 So, should he not talk to any people in any sport?

[@nicholastartaglia4276]

@@jakobstisen6366 way to dumb down the conversation. I love Zack and his content, am happy with his recent growth but I can still criticize some things

[@Ainttrippin]

OP is 100% right. How can he make a video accusing Crossfitters of PEDs but not the GOAT of Crossfit who he had on for an interview?

[@brucescull7813]

There have been cross fit athletes fail drug tests. In fact, one finished second in the cross fit games, but he ended up getting his placement stripped from him. It does happen. You do bring up a very interesting point with peptides. That's a whole other ball game.

[@amorfati4927]

Because most 17-20 year old females look like (enhanced) bodybuilders without focusing on hypertrophy and have comparable or better engines and stuff than professionals that have double their training age and are in their biological primes (that mid to late 20s) (and probably juicing too). What’s George Strait sing… if you believe that I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona.

[@tysonadams932]

Dorian Yates trained 3-4 days per week at very high intensity to failure every set and his sessions were less than 1 hour. High intensity sports that require endurance and strength, wrestling, boxing, MMA, gymnastics

[@eversor10]

06:45 Zach your thinking of Mike Metzer

[@zagato77904]

And people still believe Fraser, Froning, and other top CrossFit athletes were clean lol.

[@halexei]

No natty can hold their body composition that lean and massive a year long just by training 'high intensity', no matter the sport

[@TheNotimprezed]

Its funny he attributes their look to crossfit. Walk into a box and its full of skinny, weak men who have been doing crossfit for years. The top athletes barely do what you would see in a gym. None of the coaches seem to realize you are never gonna get a 500lb squat or 600lb deadlift by lifting 135 to failure. The best crossfit guy was 5'6" 200lb yet in a gym you will see guys 5'10 or 11" and 170 and afraid to put on weight because they think they'll be fat if they weigh over 200. You will never build that body doing crossfit until you build a body that can total 1200-1400 at a meet.

[@Elfurioso85]

CF simps gonna be Feral over this one

[@youngsuit]

the lengths men will go to get bodybuilder physiques would bring in so many more men to do just crossfit. Brent Fikowksi made the games while working as an accountant but he said that he pretty much did only lifting due to his time constraints, which is pretty different from how WODs go.

[@ThomasChristopoulos]

I think most of it comes down to genetics and what sports backgrounds people had growing up. I started CrossFit back in 2010. I was 17 years old and came out of playing baseball my whole childhood. I was athletic, but very skinny and weak. I literally could not hold an empty barbell overhead to save my life at that time. I went really hard with it for about 6 years and then switched my training up a bit for a while. I've been back at it for a year now and just tested the open workout 20.5. My time was in the 95h percentile. I went from not being able to do a pull-up or hold a bar overhead to being able to not only do 40 right muscle ups in a workout but have a time that is in the 95h percentile. If I had stuck with it consistently for 12 years and remained healthy, who knows where I'd be. I'm not saying I'd be a games athlete, but Crossfit really does work. Most of these athletes have sports backgrounds that require strength. And they have a pretty decent base/genetics to begin with. I started with literally 0 strength or conditioning. Where's someone like fraser did Olympic Weightlifting his whole life. Perhaps if I did something like gymnastics or wrestling before, my base to start off with would have been better for Crossfit. And as far as recovery goes, you can build that over time. Your body can adapt if you appropriate add in the volume over an extended period of time. I followed rich fronings program for 3 months back in the day. It became too much because I went from like 60% of that volume to 100% of that volume over night without giving my body time to get used to it. I'm sure there are people on PEDS in this sport, but not as much as people think.

[@Jmack7861]

IMO the best crossfit PED stack would be :EPO, aspirin, Cardarine, (all for increased cardio), moderate dose testosterone(300mg/week), low dose deca (for joint support plus added anabolism), either HGH or MK-677, bpc and tb-500(all for soft tissue recovery)metformin or insulin (to prevent becoming diabetic from gh or mk, as well as better glycogen storage) That’s assuming they don’t have to worry about failing a drug test tho.

[@Jmon808]

I do believe some top crossfitters are taking PEDs but one thing to think about is that no other sport does as many GHD sit-ups as CrossFit. Think about always doing those in training and competition. You are going to build crazy popping muscular abs that May or may not be confused with a ‘steroid’ or ‘gh’ gut

[@perfectelectricman]

@ 5:30 i did rowing for years and we had like a crossfit-ish training philosophy, we had intense lifts sometimes with bodyweight movements and cardio all in a row, and we always always started off with a 2-5 km run, somedays we would just do 1 long run and go home, some other days were short runs, stretching and then it is all boat rowing, a friend is a high level swimmer and from what he tells me, they have similar days

[@imaXkillXya]

Cycling the Tour de France is extremely difficult. Cycling about 80-100 miles everyday for 3 weeks with getting 2 days of rest. Of course everyone was saucy because that race takes a huge toll on the body. EPO is a no brainer for the top cyclist. Cycling is tougher and more dangerous than CrossFit imo. Recovery is probably the most important part of the sport. Don’t forget the peloton traffic jam crashes or the sprinters crashing at 30mph at the finish line or descending at 45mph + in the super tuck position. Tour de France was brutal.