Cultivating Change from the Inside Out with Erik Fernholm | TGS 144

[@Aphidman1]

Another excellent show, Nate. Thanks!

[@sirvancealott]

I needed to find more intelligent people for more intelligent conversation in my life. Im grateful I found The Great Simplification with Nate. I appreciate the access to such an informative field

[@xikano8573]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@treefrog3349]

For anyone, particularly young people, I would encourage them to familiarize themselves with two old books from almost a hundred years ago : Gen.Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket" and Edward Bernays' book "Propaganda". Together these two small books will be a fundamental "primer" for understanding our contemporary world. From perpetual warfare, to rabid consumerism, to political manipulation and to eventual environmental degradation, these two simple books will explain and expose A LOT!

[@MattAngiono]

The book I would add as even more fundamental (these two are certainly great ideas) is the Tao De Ching. It shows us that there were fundamental flaws in human ways of thinking thousands of years before global imperialism and capitalism ever took hold. Most importantly, this helps with questioning one's own assumptions and exposes to us how we think. It's very dialectic in that regard. Plus, it's all about getting at the flow and the nature of things. Also seeing how language is often insufficient. It's just jam packed with ancient wisdom that still applies today. I think some parts can probably be improved upon with the modern predicaments we are dealing with, but it's a good place to start. If nothing else, it will remind you to get into nature to learn about the world and to reset your monkey mind from this crazy world we've inherited

[@ricos1497]

​@@MattAngionoyou forgot to say which translation! I have Ellen Chen's. It's good.

[@MattAngiono]

@ricos1497 good point, and honestly I don't know, because I usually listen to it here... I like the "chillstep" music versions when I'm out running or making art in nature. Good mix of music and let me think about each line for a bit.

[@erikfernholm6391]

Thanks for these. I've heard of both but not read them.

[@lnrz0]

Thanks! Replying so I can look these up later!

[@rcm929]

YES PLEASE for Erik’s idea of a second episode with him 👏👏👏👏 Everything he described regarding that would be AMAZING and is so needed 💓💞 A fantastic episode with beautiful insights by both of you. Thank you for this.

[@JaseboMonkeyRex]

This is soooo beautiful. Be in service of life, building community of practice and building the wisdom to tame the technology we have... The clarity of the wisdom here is gorgeous... it's singing to my soul. 🎉

[@leiladarling4495]

Hello, Nate, My day is much happier because of your input. You are vital to me, defending so courageously life that is being so relentlessly fulminated by the dark side. Please keep yourself ahead of the dirt cloud and the opportunistic clawns. God Bless.

[@scottandrews5638]

Seconded 👍

[@darrelllindsay8656]

@@scottandrews5638 Thirded...

[@xikano8573]

The timing of this podcast couldn't have been any better as I find myself going thru an existential crisis myself and therefore stepping into the personal development space again after taking a multi-year hiatus. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, Erik. 👏🏽

[@emeritasatiroopaleye8707]

Same here 🙌🏼

[@darrelllindsay8656]

@@emeritasatiroopaleye8707 me too also...as well...is going through this...

[@CarolFoegen]

I love this conversation please have Erik back.

[@john1boggity56]

Yes please!!

[@truepatriot6388]

McGilchrist's perspective seems highly relevant to the IDG framework, which appears to be using a left-brain approach to reach out for a "right-brain" mindset. The lists and categories of skills, and the abstraction of the Framwork itself, are the map not the territory. From the website: "The IDG Framework is not another framework to implement, rather it is a lens that helps map, understand, and refine your strategy." It is encouraging that Erik recognizes the risk for corporate capture. Time will tell if the framework is able to help us transcend the individualistic frame by becoming our authentic selves within our local contexts, and in service to Life (Syntropy), but this is clearly pointing in the right direction. Thanks for sharing, Erik, Nate and TGS team!

[@erikfernholm6391]

McGilchrist's is very relevant and close to heart. McGilchrist's The Matter With Things is published by Perspectiva, which is co-founded by Tomas Björkman, my co-founder at the IDG's. I'd say the IDG's are of course by design for a broader audience and if done right work as a funnel toward these more in depth perspectives. The Matter with Things is a though pill to swallow for someone new to the field of the inner/outer connection ;)

[@darrelllindsay8656]

@@erikfernholm6391 Is ''The Matter With Things" digestible for an average human? I've read bits of ''The Master and His Emissary", but find much of it difficult to digest...because it's very academic.

[@lyckoaktivist]

@@darrelllindsay8656 Ian's intention was to write a shorter summary due to that feedback, but it ended up being a much lengthier and encompassing two books. If I don't misremember they are something like 2-3000 pages :) I'd start by listening to the lengthier interviews with him. There's one with Ian and Daniel Schmachtenberger on youtube that's great.

[@darrelllindsay8656]

@@lyckoaktivist thank you for the suggestion!

[@islanddenaagikont1642]

I am so happy, and proud someone from my own country can have such deep emotion and share it with all of us. And someone that I've done an enormous sacrifice that hopefully leads to one wave that can lead to a shift, when the many come together. Thank you Nate for having Eric here.

[@john1boggity56]

Lovely post!!❤

[@erikfernholm6391]

This means a lot. Thank you.

[@anthonytroia1]

"Enabling people to discover when they feel most alive, the most meaning, the most connection, and to really cement that experience that they decide on, that they found the patterns in. Because if they did, they would not accept the system that we have created" *mic drop* 🎤😎

[@erikfernholm6391]

Thanks, glad you appreciated that. I do know that to be true.

[@anthonytroia1]

@@erikfernholm6391 💙

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

Great discussion, thank you Nate and Erik for this uplifting and insightful conversation. This discussion made me think a lot, and about how Schwartz's Values Theory which identifies ten universal human values contrasts with Buddhist values. Especially in the motivations underlying human behaviour and the focus on individual versus collective well-being. While there are overlaps, for instance, around compassion and the welfare of others, many of Schwartz’s values reflect goals that Buddhism approaches with caution or frames differently. I've put together how some of Schwartz's values compare and contrast with core Buddhist principles. 1. Self-Transcendence (Benevolence and Universalism) vs. Compassion and Interconnection • Schwartz’s Values: Benevolence (enhancing the welfare of close others) and Universalism (tolerance and protection for all people and nature) are values that align well with Buddhist ideals of compassion and interconnectedness. Both frameworks promote altruism and care for others. • Buddhist Values: Compassion (karuṇā) and loving-kindness (mettā) are central to Buddhist ethics, aiming at the well-being of all sentient beings without attachment to personal gain or distinctions between close others and strangers. Buddhism emphasizes a deep sense of interbeing (as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh), recognising that the self is not separate from others or the environment, which aligns with Universalism but goes beyond it by dissolving the individual ego. 2. Achievement and Power vs. Non-Attachment and Humility • Schwartz’s Values: Achievement involves pursuing success and demonstrating competence, while Power is about control and dominance over people and resources. These values reflect a focus on personal success and influence, which are highly valued in competitive environments. • Buddhist Values: Buddhism teaches non-attachment to worldly success and material power, as these are seen as sources of suffering (dukkha). The pursuit of power and achievement often leads to ego inflation, which Buddhism views as a barrier to spiritual liberation. Humility, contentment, and letting go of the desire for status or control are key Buddhist principles that directly contrast with the self-enhancing aspects of Achievement and Power. 3. Self-Direction vs. Non-Self (Anatta) and Mindfulness • Schwartz’s Values: Self-Direction prioritises independence, freedom, and the ability to choose one’s path in life, which reflects a strong focus on the self and personal autonomy. • Buddhist Values: Buddhism teaches the concept of anatta (non-self), which holds that the sense of an independent, permanent self is an illusion. Rather than pursuing individual autonomy, Buddhism encourages mindfulness (sati) and the awareness of the present moment, with an emphasis on interdependence and relinquishing self-centred desires. The Buddhist path is about liberation from the self, rather than enhancing it. 4. Hedonism vs. Mindful Moderation • Schwartz’s Values: Hedonism is about seeking pleasure and gratification for oneself. It represents the pursuit of sensory enjoyment, which Schwartz sees as a natural and universal human drive. • Buddhist Values: Hedonism contrasts sharply with Buddhist teachings on moderation and the Middle Way, which advises against indulgence in sensory pleasures. Buddhism warns that the pursuit of pleasure can lead to attachment and suffering. Mindful moderation, simplicity, and contentment are preferred, as they lead to greater inner peace and freedom from cravings. 5. Security and Conformity vs. Impermanence and Inner Freedom • Schwartz’s Values: Security focuses on safety, stability, and order in one’s environment and relationships. Conformity involves adhering to social norms and expectations to maintain harmony. • Buddhist Values: Buddhism teaches the principle of anicca (impermanence), which holds that all things are in constant flux, including our security and social structures. Rather than seeking external security, Buddhism promotes inner freedom through the acceptance of impermanence and the practice of detachment. Conformity to societal expectations is often questioned in Buddhist teachings, as these can lead to attachment to status and fear of change, which impede spiritual growth. 6. Tradition vs. Right Understanding and Insight • Schwartz’s Values: Tradition values respect for cultural and religious customs and practices that have been passed down through generations. • Buddhist Values: While Buddhism honours the wisdom of the Buddha and the Sangha (community), it places a higher value on right understanding and personal insight gained through practice and direct experience. Rather than clinging to tradition for its own sake, Buddhism encourages questioning, personal growth, and the application of the Dharma in ways that lead to liberation from suffering. Summary of Contrasts • Individual vs. Collective Focus: Many of Schwartz’s values, such as Achievement, Power, and Self-Direction, emphasize individual goals and personal success, while Buddhism focuses on dissolving the ego and promoting collective well-being through compassion and interconnection. • Material vs. Spiritual Emphasis: Schwartz’s values of Hedonism, Power, and Security reflect material and external desires, while Buddhist values encourage mindfulness, simplicity, and the cultivation of inner peace beyond material attachments. • Impermanence vs. Stability: Schwartz’s values like Security and Tradition seek stability and order, whereas Buddhism recognises the impermanence of all things and teaches adaptability and non-attachment to external circumstances. In essence, Schwartz’s Values Theory outlines a range of motivations, many of which reflect individualistic, materialistic, or societal aspirations. Buddhist values, by contrast, emphasise spiritual growth, non-attachment, and compassion, focusing on transcending the ego and recognising the interconnectedness of all life.

[@truepatriot6388]

Thanks, Rod, for putting this together and sharing with us. At first glance it looks most helpful. I've copied to go through it with care. It seems you are on the path. How's it going?

[@ricos1497]

Sounds like Schwartz was talking out of his arse then? I'm not familiar with his work, but I guess those ten values are values of the superorganism, certainly.

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

@@truepatriot6388 thanks for asking. It feels as if the corridor of consciousness is widening to become more of a vast expanse. So many directions to travel, and so much to learn while not being attached to the direction of travel or what I need to learn. How about you, how are you going?

[@erikfernholm6391]

I'd agree with your conclusions. If you look into Robert Kegans work on values development, a five stage model, rather than a state-theory like Schwartz's seems closer to it might enable you to see the interconnection. The latters theory seems more socialized/self-authoring and the buddhist view is more focused on self-transcendence

[@judithmcdonald9001]

Glad you had the diligence to get through Schwartz and are able to share. Western philosophy baffles me. It builds castles without foundations. I began studying the Tao 60 years ago after the death of my Quaker mother. A few decades ago my teacher appeared and I began taking (and hopefully keeping) buddhist precepts. I majored in Peruvian archaeology when in college and continue looking into the mysteries there--still truly uncharted.. There are more than 4 elements in the buddhist world view, the fifth being "space" and most people who understand math still can't grasp karma. These are simple educational issues, but politically unpopular due to organized religion which is always political.. There are always more than 2 ways. Dualistic thinking is hard to overcome. It requires diligently identifying and removing mental obscurations. Happiness truly is an inside job. “I have noticed,” said Abraham Lincoln, “that a man is usually about as happy as he has made up his mind to be.” So now suffering. . . .LOL i have thought for years about creating a budhhist board game. You know how everything was numbered (oral tradition requires those things) I think that it could be a video game. The ferris wheel of desire, the swamp of attachment --- Chutes and Ladders or Karma and It's Effects --it seems to be the way children learn now. Just passing along that we need real education and education about the nature of reality.

[@colint3375]

Awesome guest and conversation. Clear signal, low noise. 🐘⚡️🕉️

[@erikfernholm6391]

Glad you appreciated it!

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

I love this question Erik poses -''In this situation are you acting to avoid discomfort, or are you acting for who you aim to be?'' As Erik suggests, asking ourselves or others this question draws attention to our highest values that generate long-term benefits for life-satisfaction. Some of the most hard-gained achievements or challenging situations or relationship conflict can bring the greatest value on reflection. Through reflection on overcoming adversity and our challenges - we can build resilience and a deep sense of meaning in life. Asking this question can help us step off the hedonic treadmill and move on a path towards eudaemonic interbeing. Furthermore, through this question, we can connect to a sense of hope in our situation. We can become aware that discomfort may be a stepping-stone for self-transcendence.

[@TheSphat]

OMG Nate, this conversation brought me to tears.

[@john1boggity56]

Me too❤

[@jjeremyhunterr]

Me too!

[@KimberleyHare-r8r]

What a thoroughly fabulous human being Erik is. Bravo!

[@john1boggity56]

Another brilliant guest on an absoluteky brilliant podcast!

[@jjeremyhunterr]

Incredibly special conversation. This one is a game changer. I'm so flippin' inspired! Gonna share this one to everyone who I think could get something from it. Bravo!

[@LibertyBooksAZ]

One of the most impactful podcasts yet, Nate. I'm latching onto these ideas like a life raft! Something about these concepts makes sense & has given me a new direction to try. Thank you for all the links provided in your freely accessible show notes. You're the absolute BEST at doing show notes of any KZbinr /podcaster I've followed since YouTubing /podcasting began. An important but under-recognized service.

[@klausfaller19]

Thanks Nate. The greater good is hard to explained, it is easier to be felt. The greater good the blueprint for the creation of paradise, and we should be in service to it. We love to create, it gives us purpose and after all we made in his image. To agree what to create is another question. Stay sane all

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That is the key to the design of how to create for the well-being of all, or "the greater good," right there. I am not a big fan of organized religions. Nevertheless, it appears that every major religion in the world has found a way to describe this fundamental principle of life.

[@klausfaller19]

@@TheFlyingBrain. Absolutely, my friend. There are many suffering and wishing that unto others.

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

@@klausfaller19 It is a misunderstanding of the fundamental principles of life. Perhaps we can still persuade them to come home...

[@klausfaller19]

@@TheFlyingBrain. I well and truly hope so, everybody is needed, it looks like a reset of values needed to reinstall purpose back into our lives

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

@@klausfaller19 My thought as well.

[@sallyjohnstone8535]

Brilliant stuff Thanx, keep it up, learning so.much

[@NancyBruning]

Thanks again so much for another brilliant heartfelt conversation. The last 20 minutes especially are priceless. Imagine being raised by an Olympian and a Mormon and you develop into this fellow!

[@erikfernholm6391]

haha, thanks Nancy! Glad you liked the conversation.

[@MichaelSmith-dy4vb]

I love this content & will steep myself in it again!

[@iczgighost]

Thank you Nate and Erik! I agree that learning how to sit and feel the uncomfortable, uintegrated emotional imprints from our childhoods instead of continuing our frantic, unconscious, and misdirected efforts to sedate and control these uncomfortable feelings is the root cause approach to addressing the human predicament (ie-turning barrels of oil into microliters of dopamine).

[@erikfernholm6391]

Love how you put it!

[@carlbarstad3784]

Amazing conversation. Thx Nate and Erik!

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

IDG hub here I come. Nate, Eric, team: Gratitude. 🙏

[@erikfernholm6391]

Amazing!

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

Perfect opening. 🎯

[@anthonymorris5084]

"Rediscovering what it means to be human". Translation - "Live the way we say, adopt our values or else." The mantra from all authoritarians.

[@shamirkeren3954]

thank you

[@Raze1283]

In this time of the great acceleration, I find the forward looking version of 7 generations quickly becomes too abstract to be useful. The version that considers 3 previous and 3 future generations is grounded enough for me to wrap my mind around it

[@treefrog3349]

The "inquietude" that is so tactfully expressed and demonstrated within this on-line venue by BRILLIANT, well-informed guests, should be an "eye-opener" for us all. Most of us are the equivalent of naive children who trust in the presumed benevolence and benign wisdom of our "elders". The current untenable status of global affairs SHOULD be an indicator that this is not the case. Our contemporary conundrum has been orchestrated by a cadre of international self-serving fools who do NOT consider the plight of 8 BILLION people to be of significance! The cultural insanity that has been insidiously normalized in the 21st Century needs to be recognized and addressed. There is ONLY one Earth. As a species, we are systematically destroying it. It is good to be old.

[@JMW-ci2pq]

civilization it's self is "self serving". Agriculture/mono culture; mining; fire; pointy sticks are all self serving. All these things give artificial advantage over all other species until the biotope collapses in an effectively noticeable way.

[@MattAngiono]

Yeah, we've certainly lost our way and don't know who were following. That's been deliberate though. It's brainwashing. Awakening from that is quite difficult because the fundamental quality of it is hiding that it even happens. We still think school is about education and not compliance. Most of us don't even know what critical thinking looks like let alone be able to engage it. We have to help each other realize just how cripple we've become. Then maybe true leaders and elders can also emerge

[@erikfernholm6391]

Thanks for this. I hope you have young people around you who are soaking up you ability to see, care and communicate so it is passed on and spread in service of it all.

[@truepatriot6388]

BODY AS TEACHER - Thanks Erik for sharing your fall into debilitation and recovery back to health. Along with the suffering, or perhaps because of it, there are important lessons on offer from such experiences. And understanding beyond our individual health. Seems to me, our body-mind is the starting place for understanding the planet since both are living systems with similar processes but our most salient experience is with our own body-mind. And our mind-soul is sovereign of our inner realm, our individual being, with radical authority and accountability for how we exert control over it. Forget about trying to wield power and authority in the wider realms of community and biosphere, shouldn't we focus first on understanding our own kingdom with its family of 30 trillion differentiated beings (our human cells), and even more non-human creatures living on and inside us? Perhaps only when we have shown competence in our dominion here, should we contemplate exerting control elsewhere.

[@erikfernholm6391]

Yes, one very practical way is a form of therapy called internal family constellations. It's basically letting go of the single mind story and seeing that we actually are a amalgam of many wills, minds, intuitions etc. And finding way to listen in, integrate and not shut signals down without enobling them isn't helpful. And that behind all of that "content" there is a compassionate space of just holding what is. May sound very esoteric but is a method getting a lot of traction globally due to it's novel way of integrating and differentiating.

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

​@@erikfernholm6391Makes great sense. 'Holding compassionate space for what is' is where all healing begins... It's fundamental. And family relationship dynamics are a great template for understanding and working with internal and group dynamics, that almost everyone can relate to.

[@melusine826]

Perfect timing- my frustration with so much "wellness" , "self development " and "productivity " always rubs me the wrong way and has no greater context/purpose beyond personal goals and gains (feels very capitalistic, hollow)

[@MattAngiono]

Yeah, those things certainly serve capital, at least in the way they are promoted for profit. It's not the concepts themselves, which are good things, but how they get used within the system

[@erikfernholm6391]

Couldn't agree more. I've spent my entire life in this field and my estimate is that outside of therapy and academia 80-90% of the things sold are for fixing symptoms and creating recurring customers or for becoming more efficient at succeeding in a broken system. Not fixing root causes or building a better systems.

[@judithmcdonald9001]

The problem with "New Age" is that they took things out of context. You can't gain enlightenment through Cliff Notes. Too much dependence on dopamine.

[@anotherthez7598]

We know... Brilliant, thank you!

[@JessieLydia]

The framing is a feel-good response, that humanity is good and was invaded by something bad. From a natural systems view, basically that all material systems develop by growth as nature’s beginning of change, shows us a very very different and much more useful story. As ALL new lives appear to develop by an emerging organizational growth processes, which hidden in very plain sight, goes through a number of successive stages, like a formative “start up process” followed by a “maturation process,” as we see in any system’s development that survives its very unsustainable startup growth. So… what seems to be the correct statement of what happened to our growth process, and distinguish our growth from the usual quite successful ones, is... That along the way, we missed a turn. With that, most any open minded person should be able to start filling what turn we missed.

[@erikfernholm6391]

When we model humanity and our trajectory as other natural systems there is a lot to learn. But also some key differences. Other species are niche adaptors, as we are. But through abstraction and learning we've managed to develop techology that makes us niche creators. And this is not a responsibility we have adapted evolutionarily to manage, no species has. From a systems approach; The way we are creating niches now is self-terminating. So it's not that humanity is good and something bad happened. It's that we've adapted to be both pro-social and rivalrous and if we don't get our act together as one species and instead weaponize technology through AI, bio weapons, nukes etc we won't have a niche left. From a life want to live approach; One can aslo argue for the telos and directionality of life and consiousness itself. Post-modernism's "all perspectives are equal" and Science's "is" not "ought" leaves us without direction and quite fatalistic. But here we're missing that there are inheret values to any living system, life want's that which creates more life. Therefore there is a "good" and the thing that happened to us, i.e. disconnection from ourselves, others and nature was inherently "bad" since it's not enabling life to create more life. But rather a quite unnatural highjacking of value for the symbol of value and the marketplace fo value, but not the real thing.

[@allonesame6467]

Epiphany in the garden: Technology degrades, breaks and pollutes. Life builds, heals, cleanses, feeds us and makes more life.

[@Marko-qy5eg]

The problem with change is that every change has to make more money than the competition. But at a certain point people are completely tapped out. More money cannot be extracted from the population. So every tech good and bad has to credibly show an early profit. Good tech is always going to be a small subset of profitable tech.

[@riffking2651]

Man, I tell ya - trying to move the needle at all surrounded by people who are cynical and checked out is bloody impossible. Almost every conversation I have unfolds revealing that we can and do have a role to play in the future, and then the person is like "yeah, well that's hard and I'm busy". It's tempting to think "fuck you. you'll get what you pay for with this" but of course this isn't a helpful response.

[@timtam2126]

Keep up changing the world 🌎 for the better and you will find like minded people

[@erikfernholm6391]

Find your tribe. Doing this work alone or even holding these perspectives without a trustworthy gathering of people around you can be crushing. Because we are evolutionarily built for connection, when we feel that our values are not represented in the interactions we have it hits hard. But the opposite is of course true as well. When we share sense-making and values with others it makes us so much braver and stedfast.

[@judithmcdonald9001]

I'm having a difficult time, but I will finish watching. I 'm thinkikng boots on the ground for change might be needed more than one more talk about why we got here. Karma (action, cause) is certain. Every action. The time of its ripening is uncertain. Once we understand karma, we will understand that the wise thing is to prepare for the unexpected. Do we study philosophy in school anymore? And then what philosophy? I remember only studying western thought. The Wise thing is to prepare for the unexpected.

[@achenarmyst2156]

One of the 4 Kantian questions concerning the core of enlightenment is „What shall I do?“ What would a Western adult life look like if you apply these IDGs to your practical way of living. Especially when also taking into account the categorical imperative that the maxim of your actions should be applicable as a global standard.

[@melusine826]

Would love to hear his wife's side of that experience

[@erikfernholm6391]

I could ask her ;)

[@jenniferreinbrecht7125]

Thank you so much for this. I so appreciate all youve done, presented - and it's so depressing and i feel so hopeless in the face of it. I have no power, deep pockets or ability i can see to help the scale of change humanity needs.

[@jennysteves]

You have your compassion and love, Jennifer. They matter. In the end they are everything. It’s beyond unfortunate that we’ve created economy-based societies and education systems that underestimate what true power is .. power we do not understand and cannot monetize. In the end it’s the flow of this open loving energy between us that saves us. ❤

[@MattAngiono]

Likely everyone in this audience feels like this. These tools that were meant to connect us often keep us isolated in this illusion of connection. We have to take these feelings into our lives outside the internet and build resonance in the real world, which I agree, is quite challenging right now. People still think voting is going to make a difference... The real work is so much harder, sadly

[@MattAngiono]

​@jennysteves those really are the most important values to begin with. Kindness fits in nicely too and goes a long way. These digital tools often drives us away from remembering these core values

[@truepatriot6388]

@@jennysteves Yes because anything that is abundant and readily available is worthless in an economy based on scarcity. If all our streets were paved with gold, gold would be worthless. The manifestation and sharing of Love has no limits. It can manifest anywhere, everywhere, anytime.

[@erikfernholm6391]

Thank you for your message Jennifer. It is depressing and a lot. Hopelessness is part of it, and if you can hold that with compassion you've come a long way. I heard a beautiful way of coping with this from a researcher recently, she said; Imagine who you aim to be and really take the eagle perspective. What is the greatest most alive version of you and your life. Now take the mouse perspective. What the smallest tiniest step you can do today in the direction that the eagle has set for you? Small things matter. Greet people. Take time for people. Aks how they are doin. Bring humanity back where it has been forgotten. Create a learning community and get organised. Meet once a week and discuss a Nate podcast. All things create the soil for the next day. Maybe it's small, maybe its big. No matter what it's important that we do them. That's how we are in service of the gift that is life that we've been given. As long as it's in the direction of the eagle, the mouse can do a little or a lot.

[@opossumboyo]

There’s absolutely no way that 56% of young people (whatever that means) even understand the climate crisis, let alone have a genuine grasp of how serious it is. I’m a young person who knows plenty of them, and it ranges from being a joke to just another thing to ignore in a world full of problems.

[@anthonymorris5084]

Or, it could be that there is no evidence of a climate "crisis".

[@MattAngiono]

The SDGs come from the very same thinking, and often even the same people who created these problems in the first place. For this reason, it's important that we reassess what exactly they are and what they are suggesting. I don't think they are all bad, but under closer examination, they seem to perpetuate, rather than solve, many of our greatest concerns. If you think about them from a modern economics perspective you can see that they lack any sort of truly liberating values that get us away from the systems of oppression that created this mess. I believe we need to look at a lot more fundamental aspects of how we operate civilization and within our own minds that go far beyond just the catastrophe management presented by the SDGs. This isn't a criticism of your guest btw (I'm still just starting the episode). It sounds like his work is well-informed in other ways and very important too. I just think it's important we learn to question things more deeply that are coming from these global institutions and likely don't truly care about liberating humanity from the oppressive system and leaders we have now. Generally, people in power want to retain and even concentrate their power. SDGs seem very much in line with that kind of thinking

[@sarahheys2770]

Erik did a TED Talk, the slide behind him shows the SDGs with a big red "SYMPTOMS" scrawled over it.

[@MattAngiono]

@@sarahheys2770 thanks for sharing... I agree. What I'm not as sure about is if that implies the same criticism of them that I have, and therefore a similar solution. I think dealing with our internal development is very important as well, but not so that we can become even more efficient in how we extract from and exploit the earth and other people. I doubt he's suggesting that either. But I do often get that sense from many people who work within the system and try to use personal development as a way to increase effectiveness and productivity in the very systems creating the problems or "symptoms"

[@erikfernholm6391]

If we accept that the SDG's are created by us from our worldview and relationship to self, others and planet then they are symptoms not solutions. We need to, as you point out, create the inner and relational space to explore how we got here, what is recreating the old, and experiment with what the new more generative can be. Here's the talk Sara mentioned: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKGqY5KLpbGUkMU

[@adrianhodgson4448]

"Regenerative Development" concept (from Carol Sanford, Pamela Mang, et al) descibes that inner development must happen simultaneously with outer development as a coevolving mutualism.. otherwise qualitative development would be majorly limited in both if understood as separate work (which Erik is saying too).

[@erikfernholm6391]

Yes, love this. I've been thinking of it as a prompt to go out into the world and try to solve the biggest problem you think you can solve. And when you hit the wall of complexity then go back and integrate the learnings from a inner/outer perspective. Then repeat. the tricky part is that we almost never see our own shadow but it arises as symptoms in the systems we create and therefore it's a very good integrative approach to do/be/do. It's also very close to Kegans Subjact/Object process of adult development; work an a big enough problem until it "has You" and then go back and reflect so you you "have it".

[@polymathpark]

Malsow's hierarchy originally included community actualization and a form of global transcendence in his final models but of course the western bastardization remained in our pursuit of egotistic individualism.

[@anthonytroia1]

27:45 Great episode, and, with all due respect my friend GET YOUR ASS TO A VIPASSANA COURSE, NATE ♥It will be life-changing. You are an amazing being, and you have one of the most important messages of our time. Vipassana will hone you into an even more effective agent for change. I GUARANTEE IT! 🙏

[@thegreatsimplification]

Am considering. But…. I’m afraid… (I have bad back and don’t think I can sit for 3 hours let alone 200)

[@anthonytroia1]

@@thegreatsimplification They'll give you a chair if you ask. And the sits are only one hour long (each). You can get up and walk as much as you need. They are accommodating. PLEASE GO!

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

​@@thegreatsimplificationI second that encouragement. In fact , I'd say this kind of training is indispensable.

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

With appropriate accommodation and support for your back, it's quite possible that the practice might actually encourage and enhance self-healing in your back.

[@truepatriot6388]

​@@TheFlyingBrain. Agreed. Inflammation and tissue injury is usually caused by not moving mindfully (too much force, too much stretch, too much repetative movement, too much immobility). This includes hampering healing from injury. Flipping that around, enhacing our capacity for mindful movement will reduce risk of injury, enhance tissue healing, and help us avoid inflammation. If sitting (prolonged immobility) causes more inflammation, consider walking meditation, Tai-chi, Chi-Gong or other practice based on mindful movement. As I commented above, we are soveriegn of a kingdom of 30 trillion souls (far more if we count the immigrants) - the cells of our body, each of them a living being. A good leader will listen to them (awareness) and care for them (intent) by challenging them properly, and protecting them as needed.

[@adrianhodgson4448]

David Bohm's work on 'dialogue' relates here.

[@erikfernholm6391]

yes I love his work. Thanks

[@achenarmyst2156]

47:00 the picture of seeing the child care group through a glass wall: This may be a company with a generational perspective. But outsourcing your own small children to group care while you pursue „the really important work“ is still an element of the classical industrial type of organising society. Attachment theory tells us that giant amounts of our unconscious Inner Working Models are shaped through our relational experiences with our parents. So many foundations of our IDGs are laid within the infant/toddler - parent relationship. And it is impossible to achieve a truly secure attachment in small „quality time“ islands. Early and extended parent-child separations are a very important component of our human predicament. And acknowledging and changing this habit is an essential part of re-establishing indigenous wisdom.

[@antonyjh1234]

@ 1hr.16 there is a short video out there called HAPPINESS: A Guide to the Drugs That Can Help You Get There, that talks to which drug is for which reason like this. Cool talk, how do we care for all the people while telling them they must suffer? Telling people to be the best you can be has succeeded over the highest integrity. People have told me life begins at the end of my comfort zone, so I extended it.. There is a free myer briggs test online, 16 personalities, a good start too for understanding ourselves.

[@robinschaufler444]

I've seen it said that evil is the refusal to suffer.

[@antonyjh1234]

@@robinschaufler444 We all use oil that other people have been killed over and have for decades, I don't think people mind suffering, but the question remains, how do we strip everybody bare while still making them feel held?

[@lorilafferty4099]

Agreed

[@wallace09ish]

How can I undertake training to be a leader in my community in Australia for this organisation? I am willing to travel to undertake training ?

[@PeterTodd]

Google innerdevelopmentgoals. There's a link to the hubs there. Unless you're in Perth and Hobart.

[@sarahheys2770]

It's all available on line or join Regen Places Network in Au too 🌱

[@websmink]

I will try and save the planet and fix society when I am done taking care of my work that feeds me, my parents that need me, my family that I am responsible for and my health issues that need constant attention. Because there is nothing more important to me than making sure that the earth survives until the sun destroys it. I am being sarcastic but I really do appreciate Eric and his passion. I also love what Nate is doing. I may disagree with how invested we should all be in changing things or postponing the inevitable but still appreciate the fact that thanks to those conversations more people are seeing the situation for what it is. I believe sentient life is hellish and saving it is unethical or silly. Let anyone prove to you that the pain and suffering of millions is worth the temporary joy of one, which is the average ratio in nature.

[@MattAngiono]

The question is how much suffering you as an individual see yourself being willing to endure to experience true bliss. I think with training we can improve that ratio to a point where lots of pain is manageable because the extent of the joy is so much more meaningful. This isn't given though, and it's quite hard to achieve in this society that trains that out of us. Hedonism gives us the wrong approach and eventually makes even the simple joys in life much less meaningful. Eastern wisdom traditions are much more helpful IMHO

[@ReesCatOphuls]

20:40 Klarna. The buy now pay later service with 25% interest. And this after he "pivotted on how he saw himself and society". I guess encouraging people into unserviceable debt is a form of "support" for Niklas. One way to "create a better world" by encouraging consumerism.

[@ChimpJacobman]

This, the good point. I expected to see more negative comments about this clear charlatan, but alas, people just love anything Nate puts out.

[@robinschaufler444]

Thanks. Now I have to listen to the episode again, to hear this part in context.

[@erikfernholm6391]

If you have a simple theory of how people work and why they do what they do, then I'd agree - Why didn't he just try to make the world better directly? But as soon as you open up to people being able to having several competing motives, and part of oneself that are highly developed while others lagger behind and maybe catch up a decade later. My life is full of these typs of incongruencies, I realize something but don't act on it until years later. Laziness. Cowardness. etc. Especially if I have some gain to be made by postponing acting on it. With that perspective the conclusion you'd draw on Niklas would be very different. He's actually very open with his reflections on what the negative impact Klarna has had on the world. He is not blind to that. It could also be why he is giving away his wealth. Another thing to consider is that he was in his twenties when he started Klarna as many young tech founders are. Now he's 40 with a very different perspective on life and values.

[@melusine826]

1:14:01 eye contact is not easy for everyone- ableism / Neuro-divergent disconnect?

[@erikfernholm6391]

Your completely correct. If anything I'd suggest to explroe when you in a present moment feel connection and explore what caused that. Could be different things. Shared interest. Listening attentively. Asking open questions etc. But understanding the pattern for you and then aiming at creating more of those experiences is probalby meaningful.

[@ThePhilosopher]

One big question though. And I'm serious. How is this not simply a new spin on neo-marxism?

[@melusine826]

Im surprised to see use of Myers Briggs- I thought that was lacking in scientific backing/ origin?

[@TennesseeJed]

👍

[@JMW-ci2pq]

Crystal's Edict "The Point" -Is so far reaching that it is nearly impossible to say in words. Speaking and lecturing or listening to speaking and or lecturing about "living; life/Nature" are mostly just received as some kind of esoteric truth and a longing for something more meaningful. The actual meaning of the same Truth is that only Heaven exists and humans are the only thing lost to it and from it. Servitude to Nature alone is the only road to redemption. Inside or outside. Death / life are just misnomers, change of state. The Purpose remains constant. One Soul many faces. No one form is superior to another. Civilization it's self is the cause of all life's destruction. Accepting this as some kind of necessary phase or step TO something is delusion. Now is always constant. All and every essence is always dying & being born. Action is now. Preservation of complexity for the sake of All beings NOT civilization at all And not humans first 1billion humans to dismantle all infrastructure and returning ALL mined/drilled materials to their inertial place of origin by order of density and toxicity. 1billion humans to create "Earth-Ship" type self generating environments from as much earthen material as possible. As many species as possible must be able to migrate to & from these .... All the rest to support the the first two. One Soul Many beings /faces/species Crystal's Law

[@ChimpJacobman]

Erik's client with 11 generations of family ownership... can you imagine the horrors that this business committed over the years to survive? The exploitation, the ecological damage, the inhumanity... but hey, they're working with Erik, so that blood money is clean now, they care now, its fine, let them keep their business. Good conclusion 👌 go get you some more Klarna money.

[@erikfernholm6391]

I agree. It's true. We are all broken. All part of the horror. And we all have blood on our hands. Not directly, but we shure do indirectly. If we pay taxes. If we use energy. If we eat. If we're typing on a computer. Or if we're typing on a phone built by from childlabor in Cobalt mines. If we use infrastructure. If we use steel (that was the company that I mentioned). We are all part of the inhumanity, because we are born into this inhumane system. But lets not fool ourselves, we don't have the luxary of clean hands. We can only pretend we do by blaming others. I think one of the reasons I respect the company you mention and their work is that they don't shy away from this. They know they were and are part of the problem. That takes courage. Blame is easy. It's safe. It's comfortable. But putting into your own history books what you build for Nazi Germany, not shying away from it, putting it so everyone can see. Choosing to own it and to learn from it. Accepting that you can be high jacked, fooled, coerced and maybe even that you have the ability for evil. That takes courage. And then, from that humbled and humiliated position to stake you position on who you want to become. Who you want to aim to be. Thats something.

[@JayFortran]

I was skeptical of this topic, but it was much less navel-gazing and very useful. Want to kearn more about folk schools. Maybe Nate could find a guest?

[@thegreatsimplification]

Coming soon

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Ikea is sustainable? Sorry, I'm in doubt.

[@erikfernholm6391]

They aren't, of course, as no be producer is. And no country is either. But the reason I choose to work with them is that they are genuine with their inention to get there. And, they have both the organizational structure of owning themselves which gives them autonomy to actually act on values and secondly the track record to show enourmous investments into this historically that aren't "for show". They are usually not that interested in showcasing what they do in constrast to many others.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

@@erikfernholm6391 Thank you for your appreciated reply. IKEA is certainly a successful (capitalist) business concept.. Their furniture are designed for young families and temporary use. Ikea furniture are neither designed for frequent moving nor for singles living in studios or small appartments in crowded cities. The locations are only reachable for motorised people with big enough cars to transport the furniture parts which are not mountable so easily. Btw, I'm West-European and sending you greetings from further south. ☺ ❤

[@melusine826]

1:27:26 need clarity on if this is leaning into prolifer /Mormon /breeder expectations? I am a big fan of "for all children of all species for all time" ethos, but not at expense of autonomy and health

[@anthonymorris5084]

I can assure you that the answer to any of these problems is not socialism.

[@erikamerklin1916]

“They should be Hella worried” 😂

[@cg000gc]

For every person who saves a drop of oil, there are ten others who will willingly consume that drop. Who's right, who's wrong? Are you the person to decide? Why you? What is your right to decide how people should live their lives?

[@chris4973]

Nate, interview Jason Stanley. His recent Erasing History is an essential read. Anyone believing that those in power will relinquish their position without employing every known tactic of subterfuge, dis/misinformation, etc is woefully inadequately informed As an aside… listening to you (a very privileged human - top 10% easily) talk about your visits to India and how you fly around the planet talking about what we need to do to fix the problem of which YOU are so obviously an integral part… What are YOU doing in your personal life to diminish your personal contribution?

[@kurtkrueger6256]

What is your Personal Vision Statement of Peace. A world scripture says: “A person without Vision shall perish.” Having it written brings it more into the physical phase for us to take action. Please create your own Personal Vision Statement of Peace. Here is Kurt's “Because I believe Total Peace is Possible, I am called to BE Peace exciting in others their vision of Peace resulting in Uniting us as the Force in creating Peace IN Everything, Everything AS Peace..” OR Create your own expression of Peace using video(s), a story, song(s), or meme’ing, OR… Here is Tamsin Wooley-Barker’s format from her TEEMING workshop based on her bestselling book of the same title: Because I believe _________, I am called to ________________ in a way that ________________________, so that _____________. If you’d like to use it. The other means of expression are also valuable.

[@melusine826]

50:59 can I suggest ikea makes sure they pay proper taxes

[@JacquesLaurin]

"We live in a “naturalistic” society. Only a naturalistic society produces this boundary between self and other, by introducing the idea of “nature”, which implicitly underpins a representation of the world based on a dichotomy between nature and culture. Nature would be that which does not belong to culture, that which does not belong to the distinctive features of the human species, and to human knowledge and know-how. Whereas nature (the physical world) is fundamentally universal (the same atoms underpin the entire universe, and the same laws and determinisms apply to humans and non-humans alike), culture differentiates not only humans from non-humans, but also human societies from each other. Typical of Western cosmologies since Plato and Aristotle, naturalism produces a specific ontological domain, a place of order or necessity where nothing happens without a cause, whether this cause is referred to a transcendent instance or is immanent to the texture of the world. To the extent that naturalism is the guiding principle of our own cosmology, and that it permeates our common sense and our scientific principle, it has become for us a kind of 'natural' presupposition that structures our epistemology and, in particular, our perception of other modes of identification”. - Philippe Descola Problems relating to perception cannot be changed with conceptual intelligence.

[@truepatriot6388]

I like what you have tossed out, Jaques. I think part of the problem with classical naturalism and modern views of "Nature" is that these are limited to duality between mind-body, spiritual-physical, man-nature, self-other, I-it, us-them. These categorical distinctions and boundaries have a degree of meaning, especially when it comes to reductionist science. In terms of determinism, the breaking of wholes into parts can reliably yield predicable outcomes (initially at least) by reducing the complexity down to the simple math of separate "form/function parts" that can then be added. Such a process is entropic, and this is the basis of most of our science and technology. This is because it allows entropic power and control to yield greater entropic power and control - weaponry, technology, consumption, etc... Still, systems science and spiritual traditions helps us to understand that Platonic and Cartesian divisions are parts of a transcendent whole. And that this is not a matter of addition (1 form/function + 1 form/function = 2 form/functions). When parts are allowed to unite, in self-directed ways, there can be emergence of a new form with new functions and greater complexity, beauty and intelligence. Our planet is such a greater whole. And beyond Earth, we humans are part of the whole of wholes: Big Mother Nature, the Universe, Reality, the Divine. Nature includes entropic flow, but the dominant flow that creates beauty, intelligence, truth and Life is opposed to entropic flow. This "syntropic flow" allows many smaller wholes to unite into wholes. Syntropic flow and emergence is not deterministic, it requires the parts (forms/function) to have capacity for self-directed agency oriented to transcendent intent. This cannot be predicted by boundary conditions in the way entropic flow can. Syntropic flow is the opposite of reductionistic. It is creatively synthetic and requires degrees of true freedom in realms of potentiality. This is the flow of evolution and emergence, and the sacred source of the highest value.

[@fotografbillylindberg]

And in the meentime the people in power of the world are starting wars to stay in power. And the inhabitants paying the price with their lives😱

[@anthonymorris5084]

The only people starting wars are human rights abusing totalitarian dictators.

[@achenarmyst2156]

The Ikea story 😄. They are interested in the IDG framework until they realize that they are core part of the problem. Furniture are largely unnecessary consumer goods. Are they really interested in someone who tells them that they should cut their business by 50, 80 or even 90%?

[@SpenderDebby-x6n]

Walker Lisa Rodriguez Timothy Taylor Kimberly

[@garyjohnson1466]

All things in consideration, it’s hard to keep a positive view that those who are in driven by religion, wealth and power who are strongly left hemisphere dominate will change, in time to reverse the damage to our planets environment and atmosphere, sadly….

[@pookah9938]

Trapped, worthy, hijacked...hmm. We have met the enemy...etc. Pogo

[@soltari2007]

TLDW.

[@thegreatsimplification]

Your loss, but I understand 🙏

[@soltari2007]

@@thegreatsimplification I'm just begging for some shorter videos here. I just don't have an hour and half to spare. Your content is very interesting and I respect what you're doing. It's very important.

[@TennesseeJed]

​@@soltari2007Sometimes I watch it in parts. I think these longform conversations give them time to warm up and start relaxing for a natural way of talkin'.

[@ChimpJacobman]

You didn't miss anything

[@thegreatsimplification]

@@soltari2007 just watch the short clips, the Franklies on Fridays and the upcoming R101 video series (that will be 8 hours but in 100 short pieces :-)

[@melusine826]

1:06:34 Mormonism.... I really hope that's not part of the IDG framework

[@uptoit100]

Another one who talks with his hands. ...

[@MattAngiono]

You should try riding in the back seat when my dad is driving.... Since he can't not talk with his hands, you constantly are wondering who's driving the car 🤮

[@melusine826]

1:14:01 eye contact is not easy for everyone- ableism / Neuro-divergent disconnect?