The Dark Matter Shaping the Human Experience with Indy Johar | TGS 147

[@anasalote2390]

Indy and Nate exemplifying the extraordinariness of being human. Nate pulls them out of the hat week after week. Can he find anyone at this level of humanity in politics?

[@ronwalker4998]

That would be an interesting search .. Major Pete and Kissinger come to mind, but after they've done their research on Nates channel. I think that would be an interesting conversation

[@siobhanfriel9018]

This was an exceptional conversation. Packed with value. Indy is an extraordinary thinker and articulator and Nate, with his humble curiosity atop his own deep knowledge, is a skilled interviewer. Thank you so much

[@RickEllis-h7w]

Thanks Nate and Indy, I hope in the future you follow-up on the notion that trauma is a fundamental driver of the superorganism. Our civilization lost it’s capacity to resolve trauma (individual, ancestral, and collective) hundreds of years ago. (Unlike many indigenous groups). Consequently we face a tidal wave of unresolved trauma that is driving all aspects of who we are. We need the ‘firewall’ that Indy mentioned, but without resolving the deep trauma wounds within (we are frozen and dissociated from nature and each other) and that are consequently shaping our institutions, infrastructure, etc. we are unlikely to be able to make the shifts Indy envisions.

[@galaxy2012future]

Impressive conversation. So dense with vital concepts and information I need to listen to the entire episode again. Thank you Nate for inviting Indy Johar to speak. The interaction of your two minds was fascinating. I love Indy's answer to your final well-known to viewers question...to move the English language to a "verbing language". Just set my mind on fire. Had not realized the depth of importance of language on society's world view and how that sets the stage for all that follows. Thank you! Look forward to Indy's next visit to TGS.

[@klausfaller19]

Wow. What a beautiful, warm stream of rich information, Indy Johar is presenting here. There wasn't a moment I didn't resonate with him. Thank Nate,It kind of leaves me more positive as usual and opened up new pathways to work towards a peaceful transition period. May I say that the UK can be proud to have members like Indy, which wouldn't look out of place as prime minister, neither.haha.

[@gevaann-voiceofgaia3715]

Wow! Thank you. So much in this conversation, I shall return to it again and again. With people like you in the world, there is hope. Thank you xxx

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

Listening to such thoughtful and well spoken people is valuable to save some faith in humanity in these tiimes where one can easily lose it alone, great conversation

[@marxxthespot]

The opposite of our violent consumer throwaway culture… is love. Love is also the antidote to trauma. Love is our path forward.

[@jamiesomma2566]

Thank you! Someone please pin this comment.

[@goodnatureart]

Great conversation. Emerging into the difficulty of us humans not liking uncertainty, Wendell Berry poem for your day in our stream of cnscsnss: It may be that when we no longer know what to do we have come to our real work, and that when we no longer know which way to go we have come to our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.

[@timeaftertime3563]

Nate 🙏🏼 I live in the Caribbean where we are almost completely reliant on tourism. Would love to see a video covering this topic soon. Nobody's really talking about this but I think this bubble will implode soon. I plan to move out of here before that happens and many think I'm crazy for thinking like this.

[@mvondoom]

where do you think you'll go? are there any non-tourism options for economies in the Caribbean?

[@timeaftertime3563]

@@mvondoom Not to the Caribbean of course. Fortunately I have options.

[@joev.8543]

I too believe the bubble is about to pop. I live in the center of the US and the only economic "driver" we have is tourism. We are very capable of tuning into self-reliance out here, as it is a relatively low population farm and ranching area, but even a shudder, let alone a collapse of tourism would mean absolutely massive changes for the area. I've been bringing this up casually in conversation over the last couple years and it's as if everyone just glazes over like "oh yeah idk about that but sure". It's like complete and utter denial that anything could change that dramatically. The primary areas of economic interest and sustenance out here are real estate and tourism, and it seems everyone is too engrossed in those areas in one way or another to even consider that they could fall apart in a year or less. It's just a race to the bottom until it does. I could run on this topic for hours, but the gist is that it's just absolutely wild to witness and be a part of. And there's no convincing the general population to take any preemptive measures in advance. I'm not even mad about it, per se, but simply in absolutely awe of the resistance to acknowledging the possibility.

[@marxxthespot]

Nate ranks storytelling as one of our greatest inventions. One thing of extreme value we are getting right now is cautionary tales. That’s our best defense against the psychopaths 🤞😇

[@guapochino140]

5 mins in and this is making me think about career paths I could have taken. Fascinating

[@marxxthespot]

Regenerative communities tasked with ecological living on man made deserts bringing them back to life AND healing generational trauma by connecting to nature, each other, work and self💪🏿🌱

[@johncarter1150]

Half way in the conversation, listening as I work in the garden this morning, watching the sunrise welcoming way to start the day!

[@anthonytroia1]

❤ ur not the only one

[@johncarter1150]

​@anthonytroia1 thanks for that, seeing the mess around me as possibilities this morning, have a good Life!

[@mr.makeit4037]

Yes i find myself doing exactly the same, trying to find peace in my own homestead endeavors, yet I yearn for more possible pieces of a societal collapse puzzle yet to come, and what to do with it.

[@johncarter1150]

​​@@mr.makeit4037Same,also make the seemingly impossible happen, without consuming... In the present moment could not be any other way.

[@ricos1497]

​@@anthonytroia1you're in @johncarter1150's garden?

[@2R.de.P]

I have replayed this conversation in the backround few times - it has calming effect.

[@magrooster]

This is such a mind blowing discussion! I feel like Johar has really laid the grounds for envisioning a viable Third Attractor scenario.

[@zweiberg_betterliving]

Such a brilliant conversation, thank you Nate & Indy! 🙂🙏 Smart, empathic and hightly solution oriented. That's the way to secure a future for humanity and all other life on earth. Especially the focus on trauma and their survival-mechanism which we learned and live because of our traumata is in my point of view one of the keystones for solving our unsustainable way of living. Keep on and stay healthy! warm regards from Austria, Gernot

[@indyrishisingh]

Love this convo. As a radical polymathic warrior for peace with colleagues, we need financial support from older generations

[@onwardatlast]

This discussion is so deeply thoughtful. We are encouraged to imagine ourselves as separate beings, independent of each other. This enables the cruelty that is all too normal in our world because what I do to you is assumed to have no effect on me. Yet our experience contradicts this mythology of our existence. This is why most of us suffer from cognitive dissonance, which manifests in emotional and physical dis-ease regardless of our wealth or privilege. What then are we? We are interdependent individuals that share a symbiotic relationship with life on Earth and the ecology that sustains us. Just like fingers on our hands, we are empowered to make individual choices. Nonetheless, nothing in nature lives independently. Acknowledging our interdependence on each other provides clarity to how we find ourselves facing the polycrisis, and illuminates the way forward to restoring a sustainable civilization.

[@wwleung4216]

I'll be watching ths at least 10 more times.

[@judithmcdonald9001]

Indy Johar is an architect of philosophy! I'm going to have to watch a few more times to catch all the nuances. I've been "transitioning" for 25 yrs.and he gives voice to the challenges of living beyond our current values, values which are based on accumulation of material wealth. I agree that food systems are going for that reason. One trip to the market tells us that. Eating dead food is not healthy. Starvation, lack of essential nutrients, has played a role in nearly every civilizational collapse. Hunters and gatherers live softly on the earth. To accumulate more than they use would be an impediment. Maybe we can't continue that way, but as stewards we need to feed the earth for the benefit of all. I'm envisioning another meeting of the minds at Esalen institute?

[@marxxthespot]

The language we have is art! As Terrence McKenna told us, “the artist self-selects to venture into the other. If the artist can’t find the way, nobody can.”

[@MikaelHc1]

I enjoyed this podcast very much, thank you:)

[@pookah9938]

Unexpectedly expected. You are on a roll, Nate!

[@UnderOneSky]

This conversation adds such value to all the work us regenerators are engaged in. THANK YOU.

[@JessieLydia]

That said, it’s just stunning that you’re wonderful talks are fatally siloed in the same way the activist sustainability cultures are, doing wonderful cultural explorations and ignoring how the global systems steer. What you need to add to your tnterests is the comparisons of different kinds of system steering designs.

[@snowstrobe]

Thx, Nate. Once again you ask really good questions. Great guest, lots to think about. Though I do think we need to find ways to simplify the language we use.

[@anthonytroia1]

"What you're (Nate) building is an intersectional worldview" 🎯 That's why this project is critical and ironically why that subscription ticker is moving slower (but steadily!) than I'd like it to. A holistic worldview challenges ALL worldviews. It's uncomfortable. It's the difference between stewed dandelion and Kraft mac n cheese. One is bitter but nutritionally complex, the other is highly palatable but...... Hopefully, this project will pioneer a new media genera.

[@robertcox14]

There you are, in my neighborhood of the reality of human consciousness, the "holistic world view that challenges ALL worldviews." Imagine re-educating USA to relinquish "Superiority" as the basic Foundational Principle of "American Exceptionalism" that feeds the huge military obsession of controlling other nations?

[@mayra-porrata]

Outstanding conversation, Gentlemen-thank you. There were so many resonant nuggets and points of illumination for me and my work but want to comment on language-not only in AI which is obviously rooted in logics of colonialism/control, but as humans beings and its application in our institutions, organizations, etc. Language is our code, programming, and co-creator of culture --- capable of distorting, diminishing, or liberating our innate capacity for becoming. So YES for verbs, perhaps new soulful ones-- ones that spark new possibilities for our collective goodness and good. Thank you again for such a valuable exchange!

[@ethimself5064]

Congrats on 5 years👍Think I shall stay for a while

[@joev.8543]

I am absolutely here for a 10hr deep dive about the economy of of land. ❤️

[@PhilGribbon]

Glad you two minds gather education together

[@krystalspringer]

A very valuable conversation!

[@dljnobile]

So wonderful on all counts. But with regard to language, let it be noted that not only the Indigenous languages but the better known original languages of revelation are built from verbal roots, notably Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic. In brief, we need only look to our roots.

[@carolspencer6915]

Good afternoon Nate and Indy Loved just about all of this. 'Agentification' indeed. Dark labs seems an agency type entanglement I seek to work alongside and within, still. Story short! Super surprised although welcome knowing things of this depth being discussed here in the UK. My nervous system is super calmed. Again super sensemaking brain gym, indeed. Thank you. 💜

[@pookah9938]

Stunning culminating in the last 20 minutes.

[@JessieLydia]

I’m a visionary architect too, and have also struggled with the overly elaborate metaphors that many architects use but don’t have a real communicable meaning for. Language is mostly not like becoming such a wonderful part of life because it was built around words everyone understood and with modifiers and intonation create the great richness of our conversations.

[@tedhoward2606]

Around 42:00 Indy gets so close, but misses in a sense. I agree with his assessment that this is probably the Fermi Paradox period, but for a slightly different and deeper reason. Indy describes evolution as competitive. That is the common dogma. That is what is taught in our institutions. That is in part what underlies economic dogma. Yet it is wrong - not completely wrong, and wrong. There is always an aspect of competition present in evolution - that is undeniably present, but to look deeply into evolutionary strategy, and see what enables the emergence and survival of each new level of complexity, is hard. It is particularly hard when evolution has embodied so many levels of bias to simplicity into our extremely complex neural networks. We like to simplify. We need to simplify. But - we need to see that all of our knowledge is simplification. All of our "truths" are much more accurately characterised as contextually useful approximations. Our bias for simple certainty drives us to declare and defend "Truth". The more deeply I have investigated "reality" over the last 60+ years the more fundamental uncertainty I have encountered, and the more I have been forced to accept "useful approximations" as being as good as it get - ever, necessarily. Back to evolution. It starts simply, as competitive, but, every new level of complexity demands a new level of cooperation. Every new level of cooperation is vulnerable to some version of the cheating problem. That demands evolving ecosystems of cheat detection and mitigation systems. BY the time you get to modern humans, in our economic and cultural and technological contexts, then we are talking about stacks of complex systems that are 15+ levels deep -- with every level containing thousands of systems, and in some agentic systems we are talking about over 20 levels of systems present. Every new level demands a new level of cooperation for both emergence and survival, and the survival of cooperation demands an evolving ecosystem of cheat detection and mitigation systems. When in modern complex systems, with multiple levels of agency and awareness, cheat detection and mitigation is a deeply complex and fundamentally uncertain process, that demands the highest levels of responsibility from every agent. The "Fermi" driver seems to me, clearly, to be our tendency to simplify. It is necessary to a degree, and we need to see it as such, and we need to accept that evolution is necessarily deeply more complex than "competition" and that any level of competition that is not firmly based in cooperation will necessarily self terminate - the logic of that is inescapable, in all classes of logic I have investigated (and I now rely mostly on probabilistic logic, in all non-trivial cases). The issue is not Evolution itself. The issue is that most people, if they understand it at all, have such a grossly over simplified understanding of the depths of complexity and relationship and cooperation demanded for the survival of complexity such as we are, that it is that simplified notion of evolution, not evolution itself, that is the key Fermi driver. Indy almost got it, but was then caught in the very thing he was trying to identify. So close. But not close enough. We accept that complexity demands fundamental cooperation to survive, or we perish. The strategic reality of that is clear to me beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt, but I have spent over 50 years exploring those strategic spaces, and I cannot hope to transmit anything but the simplest of condensations of that journey in the time available (which is months - in terms of AI development in this context - there is no surviving an AI based in competition - not in any form of logic).

[@ricos1497]

Yes! My ears pricked at that point too. A small, but important part in the discussion as you note. One thing that I would add, is that there is a certain circularity to the problem too. When you say that evolution is grossly simplified, it's also important to note that its simplification is beneficial to the system too. It suits the power of the system to promote "survival of the fittest", and so that simplistic view is automatically spread and watered throughout the system. It gains life and momentum. Not quite the same, because it describes something man made rather than real, but the "homo economicus" meme follows a similar path. Like you, I was hoping that Indy would correct himself when he mentioned evolution in the context he did. Given the maturity and breadth of his other talking points, I think it likely that he would have come to a similar conclusion about the simplification of evolution before now. It just shows the importance of language, as he has allowed himself a throwaway descriptor in the conversation (allowed himself to speak in the language of the system, if you like), which actually holds a lot of meaning and weight. I do the same myself, quite regularly. It's extremely difficult to not find yourself arguing in the language of the system, because of its all-pervading nature. It is important to try and catch ourselves as we do this. A very good point you make.

[@marxxthespot]

We down in the comments are part of this fate too 🌞🤝🌞🤝🌞

[@shamirkeren3954]

thank you❤

[@erikamerklin1916]

Social Permaculture Revolution!

[@timeenoughforart]

Path dependencies, Preemptive peace strikes, Dark matters, Network Enslavement. Only a few minutes in and I'm just tickled pink Nate introduced me to this fellow. I'm just a few days away from casting a vote for "leader of the free world" and I wonder why my choices are so, so stupid. Why can't I vote for someone smarter than me? I want Indy Johar, Daniel Schmachtenberger, or Nate! This "path dependencies" bullshit....seems like we need a preemptive peace strike in Washington D.C., and Wall Street. Thanks Nate!

[@ricos1497]

I don't envy your choice. It seems a very false one. I didn't vote in the latest UK elections, it was like the discussion was being held in an entirely different realm to the one I exist. Of course , I could answer the question "which party is better for me in the short term", but that feels like such a morally redundant way of thinking. I expect that most people have their own views on whether Trump or Harris are best in the short term, but the key is to extrapolate that over the next decade or so, when some of the huge changes outlined on this channel begin to bite. For example, you might think that Trump is a dictator, who'll ramp up fossil fuel extraction for short term benefit. On the other hand, you'll see Harris largely maintaining the status quo but inserting "renewables", the follies of which are highlighted again on this channel. Both candidates, then, offer the same status quo, at varying tempos. Neither are pointing us towards the future we need. The question, then, becomes one of which circuitous route takes us towards the future we need in the timeframe left. It could be argued that Trump will cause such catastrophe that within a few years the population will begin to uprise and self organise, towards a better future. It could be argued that Harris will be an orderly stepping stone towards addressing the meta-crisis. That her platform is just the beginning of a pendulum swing. It could be argued that eight years of Harris maintaining the status quo will see us move into the most crucial period in human history having met none of our targets for climate change, simultaneously not addressing biodiversity, soil, plastic, endocrine chemicals and other crises. As things begin to bite, people don't see a slow move in the right direction, but see looming disaster and move to a Trump V2 uber-demagogue strongman to "fix" our ailments right at the crucial point, destroying everything in the process. For me, voting in the UK was giving franchise to a fraudulent, broken system. One with no clear path to a workable future. Not even a hint at one. I suspect I'd probably feel the same in the US. Both systems attach moral certainty to the act of voting in itself, which makes it hard to extract oneself from the process, but I found that it was less problematic from a moral perspective than applying the massive dose of cognitive dissonance required to engage with the system.

[@marxxthespot]

🎯Another world is not only possible, it’s necessary

[@garyclifford5368]

Entanglement. Perfect word for what we are dealing with. At this point of my life I am living in southern Georgia. USA. Bigotry is so entangled in every day life here, I just don't see any way to remove it. It's everywhere in the politics the churches heck, it's on the billboards on the side of the interstate.

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

Wonderful 😊

[@wwleung4216]

Would really like to watch an episode including vanessa andreotti in this kind of conversation together with Nate and Indy.

[@wwleung4216]

Would also love to see Miki Kashtan join this conversation.

[@JonathanJones-b5o]

We need a fearless practice-informed science of interdependence-intersections of humanized society that deals with complexity and systems.

[@2R.de.P]

I love India. Indy spoke about the education propelling a Britain's industrial revolution. Yes Brits have smelted superior steel, they were the first who knew the ration iron to coal there fore their guns were superior and the steam boats reached India in a way that they were not reliable on the wind power and did not have to cling to the coast when the weather was rough, that way they avoided piracy. Coal pit lining required enormous amount of lumber and during 17-18-19th centuries majority of oak lumber for coal pit lining came from West of France and the Baltics. Prussian goverment invested millions of Thalers to built a lumber transportation coastal canals. Baltics were the last in Europe where animistic religions were practiced mainly worshiping a sacred Oak growths which suddenly were cut and shipper to the educated Britain:) In the conversation there was a suggestion that the currency should be based on local resources but if so then wouldn't the NATION states will still experience conflicts as we now see happening throughout an African coup belt?

[@johnkintree763]

If we froze people, and rebuilt our infrastructure before thawing the population, we would replace personally owned vehicles with fleets of community owned electric vehicles for door-to-door public ride sharing transportation, and we would replace single family detached housing with 5 story buildings that contain about 20 housing units. We would also build a global digital platform that can merge the knowledge and sentiment expressed in conversations with people around the world into a collective terrestrial intelligence. After thawing ourselves, we would use this global platform to liberate ourselves from hierarchical, centralized structures of power that all too often become authoritarian.

[@anthonytroia1]

cool 😎❤

[@ricos1497]

Surely we'd just unthaw a billion at a time?

[@adrianhodgson4448]

A nice intention with that thought experiment, but if we don't make this cultural developmental transformation together consciously and awake, a top down flash freeze fix is just another authoritarian trap.

[@chyfields]

Approached from the perspective of creation, there is an essential balanced ratio between the realms of animal, vegetable and mineral. Such a separation of powers should make us extremely wary of dismantling the established balance between the realms, by changing entire landscapes and life-force merely to suit our lifestyle and dietary preferences.

[@MacMcelroy-b8q]

His and your discussion of stewardship was beautifully expressed by Helga Vierich in a video of yours I can not find. Helga spoke of what she found as an operating system of stewardship in Burkina Faso. I don't recall if she specified the tribal group. The land use was structured in 1/5ths. Where a long rotational regeneration pattern was repeated over decades and generations. Also, she highlighted her confusion when confronted with a form of stewardship governance. The trusted elder spoke what seemed proudly of his grain storage that allowed the survival of a five year drought. She thought, from her western/modern experience that, he was speaking of personal benefit. Then she realized he was entrusted with the survival of the community due to their consensus respect for his integrity that the community granted him the responsibility to care for the surplus and the community at large. His use of the first person english grammatical form confused her, as he was expressing the merged imbeddedness of the individual with the village.

[@anthonytroia1]

"We're seeing the re-agentification of the world." 🎯😎

[@gospelofchange]

Make animism great again

[@jackgoldman1]

Educated people create a new tribe of merged cultures who reject the past to get to Utopia. Utopians are often solving problems that do not exist like equality, diversity, climate change, ignoring low hanging fruit of exercise, lose weight, eat whole food, which makes us all healthier. Seems Buddhism would solve many problems, living like Buddhist monks. Instead people want to be billionaires and squander resources. How to resolve billionaires and Buddhist monks? Where is the middle path, the balance?

[@TennesseeJed]

❤

[@anthonytroia1]

This episode is fucking gold.

[@steveo5295]

In the US we're coming from a Country of abundance, where waste is an acceptable way of life and our landfills are reflecting this. This is not only a people it's an industrial problem as well. With mass production the biggest culprit we need to engineer usage from start to finish, but it shouldn't end there recycling and new products should also be considered before the product reaches its original conception. Pre Engineering and infrastructure to handle the recycling is needed now more than ever...

[@Corrie-fd9ww]

Oh cool, talking about language and English specifically, as a subject-object way of relating to life. Tiokasin Ghosthorse has some teachings about this, again bringing us to inner worlds, looking within to how we relate, how we perceive life. He looks at dominator languages at the root of English, and those cultures that spawned English. What we do and what we create has its source inside of us. Then, what we create and how we relate further reinforces what’s inside of us. This isn’t woo. Or, doesn’t have to be.

[@_in_the_third_grade2101]

Great episode! I wanted to reach through the screen and straighten his glasses

[@indyjohar4325]

❤

[@drcpbrowndrcpbrown]

The language used is excessively complicated.

[@johncarter1150]

Was spot on in my mind.

[@gospelofchange]

Nerds are gonna nerd

[@mellonglass]

Vector priviledged. The idea of success.

[@jenniferl8714]

Thanks for a thoughtful show. It gives some hope. However I am disappointed to hear you both predict the ‘plant based diet’ as the inevitable future. What do you think plants eat? They need animals to fertilise their soil. That is also symbiosis. Do you propose to use chemical fertilisers? That is not good for the soil or the energy budget or the financial budget. Please learn about regenerative farming. Nate, you’ve done a program on it. Animals (including livestock) are key to gaining healthy soils. Thanks for listening

[@thegreatsimplification]

I actually agree and understand I meant factory animals as scale of today. I will do show on it given time

[@CarolFoegen]

Excellent and sadly so very true, I believe the loss of dialectic reasoning skills has opened people up to tunnel thinking and being more easily manipulated. I also agree covid showed truth but though many tried to hang on the government and business forced them back on the gerbil's wheel again. So I would put education first, because we can't change farming until we can get them to stop buying wit hot thinking.

[@boblove3167]

Indy sees things as an architect "chief-builder" so his language reflects that bias. A physician would express organic interdependence as symptoms, pathologies and diagnoses. We are all creatures in context. But the underlying ideas are the same ... Bounded views that fail to accommodate wider realities in order to preserve a satisfying albeit delusional coherence that would vanish if the self-serving boundaries were abandoned. Sometimes speaking the same truths using a different metaphor awakens us by forcing us to relax our unconscious assumptions and picture a new worldview. Nate's variety of speakers helps us do that. It also helps him! THANKS! PS. Economy is our exercise of power ... Left brain hemisphere. Ecology is nature's imposition of truth upon us ... Right brain hemisphere. We "exist" in both and need them in an alternating sequence of right, left, right, left ... that keeps power and truth together in dialogue. The "solution" is not a state but rather a process or cycle that seeks to continually reconcile economy with ecology ... Reconcile Nomos with logos around a common oikos. This is the function of education.

[@gospelofchange]

how might we yin and yang at the same time?

[@deepashtray5605]

You could have a very long discussion on what could be the central role authoritarianism will increasingly have in our slide toward the Great Simplification.

[@pookah9938]

The Menominee Forest!

[@here_now_I]

I would recommend reading about Buddhism if anyone is interested in such theorization on human condition. Everything that happens to human is the effect of human karma. Human is just as self centered as other creatures and there will be always suffering. The grand process of life may just go through externalization and eventually get realized in internalization. It is fairly clear how lost human are in the external materialistic world now. Even the speaker is deeply lost in such theorization.

[@JessieLydia]

The question is a great one, but if you want to know how am environment shapes its people, your real question is about how environments shape emerging cultures. That is actually the purpose of architecture, to create facilities that facilitate. Then we’re forced to admit that something else going on that keeps diminishing the lives we can live in our wonderful built world.

[@jackgoldman1]

Hi Nate. I am a neighbor in MN. I hear deplorable people and Utopian people discussed as being humans. To me, Utopians are people who have a 2D abstract life, 2D language, 2D abstract life, yearning for Utopia. Deplorable people, are 3D people who shit and piss. We are trained to fight each other. Reality? I am a Utopian and I am deplorable. It is a war between the 2D fantasy intellect and 3D reality, local, in breath, heart beat, digestion, leading to shitting and pissing, a life in pipes. Life in wires is dishonest. We need balance.

[@slowburn1764]

The idea of property ownership leads to the rights of extracting wealth at the core of capitalism. As it is our commonwealth this would seem opposed to its privatisation especially as nature is the biosphere for all of us and being destroyed by the economics of extraction. It is hard as a property professional to come to this realisation late in life.

[@mvondoom]

way too much terminology i don't follow here...

[@jacquelinehogler5477]

That is probably coz he trying to sound "cognitively smart" L O L

[@mvondoom]

@@jacquelinehogler5477 yeah, it annoyed me

[@skeetorkiftwon]

"We're all one" -This Guy Cool, pay your share of my bills then.

[@snowstrobe]

So much of the concern around so called 'freeloaders'... is simply people not engageing in capitalism. For valid reason.

[@ExtinctionLife]

Just wondering about the choice of using the term metacrisis over polycrisis.... The latter seems more applicable? Anyone have thoughts?

[@thegreatsimplification]

For my part I’ve decided to mostly use The Great Simplification as that will happen regardless of ex-risks, AI, etc. More on this soon

[@ExtinctionLife]

Thanks for the response, was hoping to hear from the guru himself! Do you think thegreatsimplification may be a bit of a mouthful and less intuitive for the public to understand? Keep it up, your audience is steadily growing. ​Looking forward to more on this soon!@@thegreatsimplification

[@johncarter1150]

The term is reminiscent of the physics term singularity, spot on.

[@thegreatsimplification]

@@ExtinctionLife when you don’t use spaces between The and Great yes it’s a mouthful! (Ps I’m not nor will ever be a guru/ just a convener/observer)

[@OzoTenzing]

The music is too loud.

[@STLisAlive]

Thank you for the conversation, it was enlightening, but maybe not in the way intended. I found most of the conversation completely divorced from reality. One of the bases, i think the main one put forth, is that we have to stop "othering". Now, i completely agree we need to fall into kinship relations with our natural world. However, to believe we can not "other" stands in contrast with all of human history. I dont think theres evidence of any society of humans, civilizational or not, that doesnt have an in group and an out group. Once we say the change has to be to fundamental human nature, weve really jumped the shark. All the talk of remaking society is great, but again, lets get real. Right wing political movements across the world are rising up in answer to populations being told they must make do with less. Reality is proving scapegoats will be created as our societal metabolism inevitably slows down. I kept on thinking about john mearshimer. I dont know if youre familiar with his lecture on the death of liberalism, but it was a great presentation from 8 years ago or so. In it, he makes a rather convincing argument that the liberal world, which is a kinder world, is ending, and a new wave of nationalism is ahead of us as multipolarism becomes inevitable. This gets a little deeper in one point, that your podcast is intersectional. I think your actually coming into a divergence.

[@STLisAlive]

I feel this divergence is best shown by contrasting this podcast and Daniel schmachtenberger with bill plotkin. Essentially, Daniel and Indy are saying that because our crises is existential, we don't have time to destroy the existing power structure/society, and that our efforts must be to uphold this civilization, and "evolve" our society to confront these threats. Bill plotkin seems to argue that there is no way that a society with the foundations of ours could be remade to tackle the issues it has created. The only solution I. The plotkin model is completely building a new society from the bottom up. Personally I'm in the plotkin camp, and I think another point of yours illustrates my view here - that rich people are understanding they need to pitch in to save themselves from the collapse of society. You answered this by saying your only selecting to talk to people that believe that, and I think youre right on. Most rich will build survival bunkers long before trying to tackle systemic issues

[@treefrog3349]

Often, when I watch episodes of this podcast, I am struck dumb by the deep wisdom that is shared on this venue. It becomes even more poignant when I later hear the vile proclamations of people who actually DO run the world. My point is this : as a species, we DO know a better way to proceed but we, as a species, are ALL stifled in that pursuit by self-serving charlatans in government, economics and even religion. Collectively we KNOW what should be done, but are prevented from doing so by their inordinate power and control. It just doesn't seem like democracy to me.

[@elliotchapman4367]

Is private property really the problem? Acquiring a small piece of heaven aligns a lot of quality human characteristics to strive & relatively behave in a civilised society. Every man needs a home & castle, least we never quite be free. But a balance of optimising community-centred values for human flourishing & potentially activate networks of care to enable collective meritocracy over extrinsic gain .

[@DarthNehimis]

This is a really hard to follow word salad. Reminds me of my consultant days - just lots of jargon and buzzwords, making it hard to understand what is attempting to be communicated.

[@adrianhodgson4448]

Yes, it is a balancing act to find discerning words to have these kind of conversations while also keeping things as simple as possible. Sometimes we have to listen twice to understand better, but growth happens best through super efforts doesn't it? Nate recognized this and did well to ask for clarification throughout which really helped -- and added much value to the conversation too.

[@jacquelinehogler5477]

Word salad, yes or as I heard it a rugged poetic playful thoerical ramble, not to be confused with rhubarb crumble, spiced with a bunch of stragical logics; basically I couldn't stop laughing, from beginning to...well I almost got to the end, but it's late now and tomorrow is another day

[@jacquelinehogler5477]

@@adrianhodgson4448 I don't think he even tried to make it...simple, and yeah bless ole Nate he tried...

[@ElliotNedas]

Sorry you didn't get it. Listen more slowly. This is one of the clearest expositions so far.

[@adrianhodgson4448]

@@jacquelinehogler5477 maybe your more of a meat and potatoes learner.. we all learn differently, but if something isn't readily understood in your learning style it doesn't mean that the message is invalid. It's hard to be distinct enough and yet not be too ambiguous, that's why there are many different words to help us describe things (eg: if I said the answer to all the world's problems is Love, that's a big porterhouse roast.. but maybe too simple of a message to be useful for many people)

[@graemetunbridge1738]

1:12:00 'capitalism is the problem' - I prefer consumerism is the problem.

[@robertcox14]

I think we all need to develop some expertise in "philosophy," and one way could be John Vervaeke's video course, "The Meaning Crisis," that helped me "think" better and enabled deeper analysis of these topics that need some deep levels of thinking that can't just appear in people with short attention spans, a less-than-adequate vocabulary and a lack of analytical skills. Most people are in "simple mode" and will skip this discussion that describes THER failure to choose greater development of their abilities that require more advanced skills to comprehend what is being presented. More reading, more listening DEVELOPS more and better understanding of "ideas" that can move "human civilization" into higher consciousness."

[@pookah9938]

Nate doesn't like to allow that all entities have the same capacity he has..to shift. Just can't see it...because it isn't present yet...Fissures fit the emerging narrative.

[@zoecohen9071]

Psychopathy at the top, 100%

[@johncarter1150]

Mis understood this comment at first read.

[@CharlesBrown-xq5ug]

110112. The second law of thermodynamics may be false conventional wisdom. Let's face the wonder of full heat use. The second law of thermodynamics was developed during v8ictorian england's scientific and religious fascination with steam engines. The second law is behind modern refrigerators needing electrical energy to compress the refrigerent to force it to release as waste the heat that it has removed from the refrigerator's service interior in the cooling part of the refrigerent's circulation. The interior coldness draws in exterior heat through the cabinet insulation. There is also discarded heat from mechanical friction and electrical resistance. The net thermal output equals the electrical input with energy not being gained or lost in this refrigeration system including its forced waste. Unencumbered refrigeration by the principle that energy is conserved should produce electricity instead of consuming it. It makes more sense that refrigerators should yield electricity because energy is widely known to change form with no ultimate path of energy gain or loss being found. Therefore any form of fully recyclable energy can be cycled endlessly in any quantity. Full heat recycling, all electric, very isolated underground, undersea, or space communities would be highly survivable with self sufficient EMP resistant LED light automated vertical farms, thaw resistant frozen food storehouses, factories, dwellings, self contained elevators, safe rooms, and horizontal transports. In a flourishing civillization, small self sufficient electric or cooling devices of many kinds and styles like lamps, smartphones, hotplates, water heaters, cooler chests, fans, radios, TVs, cameras, security devices, robot test equipment, scales, transaction terminals, wall clocks, open or ciosed for business luminous signs, power hand tools, ditch diggers, pumps, and personal transports, would be available for immediate use incrementally anywhere as people as individuals or larger social groups see fit. Some equipment groups could be consolidated on local networks. If a high majority thinks our civilization should geoengineer gigatons or teratons of carbon dioxide out of our environment, instalations using devices that convert ambient heat into electricity can hypothetically be scaled up do it with a choice of comsequences including many beneficial ones. Energy sensible refrigerators that absorb heat and yield electricity would complement computers as computing consumes electricity and yields heat. Computing would be free. Chips could have energy recycling built in. A simple rectifier crystal can, iust short of a replicatable long term demonstration of a powerful prototype, almost certainly filter the random thermal motioren of electrons or discrete positiive charged voids called holes so the electric current flowing in one direction predominates. At low system voltage a filtrate of one polarity predominates only a little but there is always usable electrical power derived from the source, which is Johnson (observation) Nyquest (theory) thermal electrical noise. This net electrical filtrate can be aggregated in a group of separate diodes in consistent alignment parallel creating widely scalable electrical power. The maximum energy is converted from ambient heat to productive direct current electricity when the electrical load electrical resistance is equal to the array internal electrical resistance. Maximum calculated electrical power output (watts) is k (Boltźman's constant), one point three eight x 10^ minus 23, times T (temperature Kelvin) times bandwidth (0 Hz to a natural limit ~2 THz @ 290 K) times rectification halving and nanowatt power level rectification efficiency, times the number of diodes in the array. There are a billion cells of 1000 square nanometer area each per square millimeter, 100 billion per square centimeter. Order is imposed on the random thermal motion of electrons by the structual orderlyness of a diode array made of diodes made within a slab: P type boron doped -----‐------‐----_____-- Out 🔻🔻🔻🔻 ■■■■■■___ + Out N type phosphorous doped All the P type semiconductor anodes abut a metal conductive plane deposited on the top face of the slab with nonrectifying joins; the N type semiconductor cathodes or common cathode abuts the bottom face. As the polarity filtered electrical energy is exported, the amount of thermal energy in the group of diodes decreases. This group cooling will draw heat in from the surrounding ambient heat at a rate depending on the filtering rate and thermal resistance between the group and ambient gas, liquid, or solid warmer than absolute zero. There is always a lot of ambient heat on our planet, more on equatorial dry desert summer days and less on polar desert winter nights. Focusing on the composition of one simple diode, a near flawless crystal of silicon is modified by implanting a small amount of phosphorus (N type conductivity) on one side from a ohmic contact end to a junction where the additive is suddenly and completely changed to boron (P type conductivity) with minimal disturbance of the crystal lattice. The crystal then continues to another ohmic contact. A region of high electrical resistance forms at the junction in this type of diode when the phosphorous near the ĵunction donates electrons that are free to move elsewhere while leaving phosphorus ions held in the crystal while the boron donates holes which are similalarly free to move. The two types of mobile charges mutually clear each other away near the junction leaving little electrical conductivity. An equlibrium width of this region is settled between the phosphorus, boron, electrons, and holes. Thermal noise is beyond steady state equlibrium. Thermal noise transients, where mobile electrons move from the phosphorus added side to the boron added side ride transient extra conductivity so the forward moving electrons are preferentally filtered into the external circuit. Mobile electrons are units of electric current. They lose their thermal energy of motion and gain electromotive force, another name for voltage, as they transition between the junction and the array electrical tap. Inside the diode, heat is absorbe; outside the diode, to exactly the same extent, an attached electrical circuit is energized. The voltage of a diode array is likely to be small so many similar arrays need to be put in series to build higher voltage. Understanding diodes is one way to become convinced that Johnson Nyquest thermal electrical noise can be rectified and aggregated. Self assembling development teams may find many ways to accomplish this wide mission. Taxonomically there should be many ways ways to convert heat directly into electricity. A practical device may use an array of Au needles in a SiO2 matrix abutting N type GaAs. These were made in the 1970s when registration technology was poor so it was easier to fabricate arrays and select one diode than just make one diode. There are other plausible breeches of the second law of thermodynamics. Hopefully a lot of people, mostly as independent teams, will join in expanding the breech. Please share the successes or setbacks of experiemental efforts. These devices would probably become segmented commodities sold with minimal margin over supply cost. They would be manufactured by advanced automation that does not need financial incentive. Applicable best practices would be adopted. Business details would be open public knowledge. Associated people should move as negotiated and freely and honestly talk. Commerce would be a planetary scale unified conglomerate of diverse local cooperatives. There is no need of wealth extracting top commanders. We do not need often token philanthropy from the top if the wide majority of people can afford to be generous. Aloha Charles M Brown Kilauea Kauai Hawaii 96754

[@websmink]

Catchy terms will save the planet and its inhabitants. Too bad we won’t be alive to witness it.

[@anthonytroia1]

Can't we mute these people? 🤦🤷

[@judithmcdonald9001]

No one gets out alive, but some get out of the bondage of self.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Be nice if everyone agreed with everybotty else.​@anthonytroia1

[@shamirkeren3954]

Freedom in The Dawn of Everything, Pt 1. But for us, the key point to remember is that we are not talking here about ‘freedom’ as an abstract ideal or formal principle (as in ‘Liberty, Equality and Fraternity!’). Over the course of these chapters we have instead talked about basic forms of social liberty which one might actually put into practice: (1) the freedom to move away or relocate from one’s surroundings; (2) the freedom to ignore or disobey commands issued by others; and (3) the freedom to shape entirely new social realities, or shift back and forth between different ones. What we can now see is that the first two freedoms - to relocate, and to disobey commands - often acted as a kind of scaffolding for the third, more creative one. Let us clarify some of the ways in which this ‘propping-up’ of the third freedom actually worked. As long as the first two freedoms were taken for granted, as they were in many North American societies when Europeans first encountered them, the only kings that could exist were always, in the last resort, play kings. If they overstepped the line, their erstwhile subjects could always ignore them or move someplace else. The same would go for any other hierarchy of offices or system of authority. Similarly, a police force that operated for only three months of the year, and whose membership rotated annually, was in a certain sense a play police force - which makes it slightly less bizarre that their members were sometimes recruited directly from the ranks of ritual clowns. It’s clear that something about human societies really has changed here, and quite profoundly. The three basic freedoms have gradually receded, to the point where a majority of people living today can barely comprehend what it might be like to live in a social order based on them.--David Graeber & David Wengrow (2021) The Dawn of Everything, p. 503

[@maboiteaspamspammaboite9670]

the guest is really good, as usual, as nate. Though, i am afraid this is getting out of sync with average people. It does not seem like anyone feels accurately the level of madness that is impregnating the normality and daily life of the vast majority. The superstructures (institutions + infrastructures) are sucking out their brain and body vital energy to maintain its existence in face of its inertia. Doing so it is parasiting their capabilities to reach to the consciousness level required to grasp the underlying wider view explained in this podcast. I dont mean lightly the word parasitic, it behaves like the cordyceps mushroom. Anyways, i would like to suggest to perform 20 minutes interview with normal people entangled with their daily lives to get a better insight of the gap between their understanding of the world and what it really looks like.

[@thelastsasquatch1019]

agreed. am trying - but logistically its harder than you might think.

[@PhilGribbon]

31:46 Indy: "I no longer think that states are the only agents of power in the system" 32:07 "we're seeing an explosion of sovereignties … we have to construct a different theory of negotiation and peace construction" I propose we re-co-imagnï-∫∔△𝑡Ξ