The Key Resources Underpinning Modern Economies with Ed Conway | TGS 127

[@treefrog3349]

If the contents of the Great Simplification were to become a requirement in our high school education programs, then America (and most of the world) would be a completely different place in a generation or two. The technical information and the underlying benign wisdom and intent of this podcast never ceases to amaze me. The Great Simplification is the type of conversations that SHOULD be occurring in our "halls of power", but which are so tragically absent.

[@xqt39a]

Very well said, I totally agree.. based on what I have heard in this post, the great plans of the WEF will never work because centralized management of human activity will never work, especially given the largely unknown details of the human built energy infrastructure. If the nations of the world would come together to confront this challenge, I like to think that humanity would have a reasonable chance at survival.

[@BestFitSquareChannel]

Profound. Awe struck. Enlightened. Brilliant. Thank you Mr. Conway. Brilliant. Thank you Mr. Hagens. Brilliant. Best wishes.

[@wimtimmerman6730]

Mr. Hagens, I applaud you. There is such an enormous lack of knowledge and understanding concerning the subjects you address in such a benign way, which such interesting and knowledgeable quests, that it really lifts my spirits, and I am sure I'm just one among many in this respect. Thank you for that, you are most certainly a force for good in this world.

[@treefrog3349]

"How can we begin to fathom the future if we can't understand the present?" BRILLIANT!

[@markstewart4501]

Magic. Magic is the REAL problem. The present is understood as some sort of 2000 yr old, at its newest, some sort of cloud god apocalypse every six months. Im just over 40 and I have lived through some 60 end of the world predictions that all the religious people around me believe. Education with some sort of 10,000 versions of Jesus leads to the most bizarre takes on...what ever their religious leader wants it to be.

[@ideafood4U]

This is a fantastic interview. The complexity is mind boggling. Ed's curiosity and sunny disposition is enjoyable, and Nate's questions dug deep. Mapping out the supply chain is a great idea in this world of trade barriers, currency competition and war.

[@boombot934]

Great to know that ordinary people can understand all the complexity of our civilization, thanks❤🌹🙏 Ed and Nate 🤗

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

I was 33years in resource, mining, refining, heavy industry, in a technical role.. so I saw things first hand, impacts and scale was bewildering.. great discussion, thanks..looking forward to more, also Industrial ag as a topic..to deepdive into.👍👍

[@zeekczup]

What a fantastic conversation. Really interested in the proxy of steel for "development." Will read the book next. Overall, I'm surprised by Ed's unwavering optimism in the future, resources, and technology especially after his reactions of "awe" after seeing so much extraction in the global supply chain.

[@rogadair]

He does err on the side of ecomodernism and is optimistic about the future EROI of oil extraction and the efficacy of fracking as a long term strategy. However he still manages to maintain some semblance of a balanced critical approach. I certainly learnt a lot about subjects I had convinced myself I was very well informed about and recommend his book to others who may feel the same.

[@achenarmyst2156]

15 min in and already glued to the conversation… …glas and rubber in WW1, absolutely fascinating. 😎

[@patrickkelly1195]

Absolutely fascinating discussion. For me, up there with the Martin Scheringer discussion as one of your very best, and most enlightening interviews. Thanks Nate.

[@alfredmacleod8951]

The Humankind hubris ! One of this days we will face the consequences of our hubris. We must break down ! Many thanks Nate : a great discussion !

[@TennesseeJed]

This should be a good one! Thanks Nate and No Trouble Makers media!

[@treefrog3349]

This is a fascinating conversation for many reasons, but it is also morality tale about parasitic human exploitation. The life and death cycles of every other living thing on the planet has maintained the perpetual "balance of nature" for eons. Until few hundred years ago when homo sapiens began devouring everything in sight. Look at us now. We celebrate our cleverness, we extol our own virtues, we sing the praises of our technical expertise while we are simultaneously devouring the Earth right from under our own feet. Homo sapiens are simultaneously the most amazing - and the most tragic - species that the Earth has ever endured.

[@MartymcFly-zz2pg]

Not all humans are parasites, but many are.

[@janevt1200]

This is the most fascinating conversation yet.

[@oliverschultz4943]

Wonderful, insightful, and critically important conversation - thank you Ed and Nate!

[@danielfaben5838]

This topic is why the expression when the shit hits the fan exists. The SHTF moment comes for us all sooner or later unless we come to live in peace with our inner selves. Not likely of course so what is left is projecting all the fears, confusion and denial that is the indulgence of a personal complexity. The expectation of things continuing as they have been is amply expressed in politics and policy. Thank you for insisting on bringing your best shot at showing these truths in as many ways as you can. Please keep up the good work.

[@LeafRhetoric]

So true. Many have pointed out throughout history, Eckhart Tolle more recently, that our individual and collective unconsciousness is ultimately behind our destruction of our planet.

[@Charlie-UK]

Great program Nate, as you say one of the more important. Ed Conway's book Material World, should be required reading for all our politicians. Perhaps then they would realise, that as the old saying goes, non of us is an island. And that the current political direction of Isolationism, Protectionism & Neo-Liberalism is tearing us and our precious environment apart...

[@maticcepalm]

Fascinating! Thanks Nate for highlighting this. Thanks Conway! I'm getting the book 😀

[@tamlynmcdonald8312]

I am so thrilled to have stumbled across your channel! These are exactly the kinds of conversations I crave 😊

[@Rnankn]

The unchallenged assumption in this conversation is that all this complexity is necessary for civilization to endure. The method of starting with the existing economy leads to a ‘materials determinism’. Which is why we are trying to preserve an economy optimized for carbon energy, and globalized industrial supply chains, by supplementing it with new technology. The anxiety produced from the misalignment between expectations and reality begs an alternative approach. Reverse the approach, and start by asking what is actually needed, and then examine what is possible in the new context, optimizing for resilience not complexity. This method would be a ‘social determinism’ where the structure and organization of society would define the contours of the future.

[@PatrickCordaneReeves]

Another unchallenged assumption is that "civilization" is inherently a good thing.

[@noname-ll2vk]

The system keeps raising the bar because capital stops functioning without expansion aka growth. Most people in the West have never seen a localized production system even though it was still around in many areas until the 1960s. Electrification only became widespread in the 1930s. Sustainable consumption and populations aren't negotiable over time. The further out we push the unsustainable the smaller the end sustainable numbers.

[@antonyjh1234]

Basically, you are saying we are born into a system we didn't create, are products of our environment and now that we have everything we want, we should look at what we need? I agree, food, shelter and medical care for all people should be something humanity should be able to accomplish, easily, we value a business model based on gold supposedly being the flesh of Ra and the flow of humanity has been directed by it too much.

[@blindpuppy7786]

All this complexity is necessary for this civilization to endure. If the complexity cannot be maintained, the civilization will collapse into a simpler form, with the multiple losses that implies. Depending on how prepared "we" are and how flexible and resilient our societies prove to be, our species will have to adapt to a considerably more primitive way of life. Individually and in groups we can focus on what is actually needed, but no one is going to convince even a substantial minority of any nation state to choose simplicity until there are no other available choices. We are in for a wild ride, I reckon .

[@axismundi8]

Thanks for your comment. I've started my forays into understanding economics with Richard Wolff.

[@Namari12]

I immediately went and checked his book out at the library--can't wait to read it. Great conversation!

[@pkopalek]

I'm back here again months later because Spruce Pine is in trouble after the hurricane and I was sure I heard about it here first. And indeed I did.

[@pascalbercker7487]

Ten minutes in and I just bought the book - even though I am dirt poor even while living in France.

[@TheRealSnakePlisken]

AS a percentage of Americans living in the US, be advised that there are evirtually zero percent of Americans conserving energy. Full steam ahead - effectively, nobody recognizes climate change in the US. Props to Nate.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

@@TheRealSnakePlisken I was working lower until I realized any savings (of energy) was quickly used by someone else. Still working lower but without the conscious.

[@bunsw2070]

Global warming is easily debunked nonsense. Running out of finite mineral and hydrocarbon resources isn't. Why do the two get intertwined?

[@stephenboyington630]

I just bought it as well. I hope that my teenage children will read it, too. I am pretty sure my son will. He is at least familiar with Nate.

[@effexon]

@@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner working lower? tryting to reduce energy need? it works best same as hundreds of years... waste and need less resources like energy and learn that, so in medium term can yourself save money and be more resilient with it too incase energy shortage shocks come. That is still possible locally,regionally from hurricane,snowstorm or wildfires cutting electric grid despite everywhere else is abundance. applies of course to other forms and materials like gasoline, lumber, food.

[@yeshuamusic5102]

Brilliant conversation, loved it.

[@BillHustonPodcast]

Great discussion! Really enjoying it so far.

[@makeleen]

Yep, this is what I asked for in Nate's questionnaire, more podcasts on energy and material limits and technologies. Thanks Nate! One substantive comment, in their discussion of command vs free markets, Conway seemed resigned to the inevitably of free markets. But it occurred to me that if there was ever an obvious and valuable need for big AI, it might be as the 'commander' of a command economy. The reason it didn't work for the Soviets was that the job was too big for a few people or a bureau in Moscow. But not, I'd say, for an AI with nearly complete knowledge of all supply chains and economic processes. Sorry Milton Friedman (not really sorry)!

[@Lyra0966]

Your point is fundamentally sound. The only flys in the ointment are human competitiveness, greed and arrogance. The AI intelligence would inevitably prescribe an integrated system that was based on equitable principles, international cooperation and rational distribution. But political realities and our human egos would ensure that no such socio-economic paradigm came in to being. Look at the extent to which the US is currently trying to suppress critical Chinese technology, the resource wars occuring in West Asia, Africa and Ukraine. Developing nations know that to avoid continued exploitation and subjugation by rich Western nations they must develop both economically and militarily. This knowledge demands that they abide by the capitalist economic growth paradigm but, as we know, infinite and exponential growth is not possible on a finite planet. A benign AI global dictator is a great idea in theory, but humans would only revolt and refuse to abide by its dictates. Have to say, I'm not hopeful!

[@EricVulgaris]

Ed spending months learning about sand like he's dang Leto Atreides prepping for Arrakis. For real though great conversation.

[@solennemarie5705]

Another GEM of a podcast!!! So many amazing insights and how inspiring to know these elements are being thought of and reflected on like this!!!! I wonder, Ed, if you have thought of writing children's books that explore these themes? (Congratulations on your newest baby on the way btw). I feel that the more we think in systems thinking like this from an early age and teach and encourage children in their natural beautiful questioning, we can create precious inquisitive mindsets in broader terms. Loved this episode - book purchased and shared widely! Thank you both! 🌍 ✨

[@TheRealSnakePlisken]

More discovery and awareness needed to save this civilization. Fascinating and amazing.

[@nirvonna]

There is no “saving civilization!” All is impermanent and the coming fall of industrial civilization is undeniable.

[@nirvonna]

Not possible.

[@andywilliams7989]

One of the best podcasts yet. The chlorine from salt bit blew me away. As a teenager i worked in a pvc pipe factory, and I was a very curious factory worker who liked to learn about all the processes involved...had no idea that chlorine was ripped out of salt

[@nirvonna]

With regard to the section on concrete, it would be good to explain the difference between concrete and cement. Many people I know seem to think that concrete is cement. They talk about cement patios, cement sidewalks, cement posts and what not. To clarify for those who don’t know: cement is one of three main ingredients that goes into the mix that produces concrete. Cement is a vital ingredient in concrete but is only one ingredient and not the final product. I know this because my husband corrected my misuse of the word cement years ago-it’s a common error.

[@rmutter]

Staggering revelations describe rarely discussed scary implications. That our current likelihood of complex manufacturing and supply chain resources collapse may be due to our basic non-understanding of how complex modern industrial creation and inter-dependency actually works is a shock to me. Fascinating.

[@y0udecide]

Yep. The trouble is that each material's supply chain has its own weak link. If that link fails due to a black swan event, the disruption will send shocks through the global economy.

[@effexon]

also lack of respect for most basic raw material supply to those chains. (eg sand as raw material input to many different product supply chains)

[@d.Cog420]

Thanks very much for this. Lots learnt.

[@nirvonna]

Nate poses a question at 1:29 that neither he nor Ed Conway know how to answer. The person to ask is former guest, William Rees. Here’s the question: “Is it something about humans that makes us want to consume more or is it something about our current economic system?” Ed responds, “That’s a really good question. I don’t know. I hope it’s our economic system…” I guess Nate forgot his interviews with William Rees on overshoot. They’re the best. Rees would say-and I could not argue-that the primary cause is neither. Yes, It’s human nature but not exclusively-that’s too narrow a view. It’s ANIMAL NATURE for a species to use up resources and overpopulate themselves to the point of habitat destruction. This happens when resources are abundant enough to allow for overshoot coupled with a lack of sufficient constraints on the overpopulation a given species. Without population controls to balance biodiversity, most animals will consume their way to die-back if not extinction. Such overshoot has always been a local phenomenon until Homo sapiens came along and discovered fossil fuels. We are animal and are just doing what animals do but in spades.

[@effexon]

humans are very clever and use lot of effort and resources (education) to foggy that problem though. ("we have lot of resources, we need more work, we need growth" and so on)

[@nirvonna]

@@effexon I don’t think there’s a “though” there though. Sure, humans will be humans, and whatever excuse or multiplier we may use to rationalize the extraction and use of resources-along with the growth-is-good concept-it still comes down to us just doing what animals do when the opportunity presents itself: destroy their own habitat by depleting all available resources to their own demise.

[@effexon]

@@nirvonna yeah education helps rationalize... outsourcing manufacturing to other side of world is similar analog as how drones and other remote weaponry make killing easier vs fistfight would be very raw and personal. all civilizations follow similar curves... why would we be any smarter when it comes to resources. would king or queen step down from their position to downsize their status? that extremely rarely happens. then there is competition against other civilizations (cold war speak "systems") leaving little room. we have this curse nowadays to live long while at same time use huge amounts of resources. kind of irony to see our deeds during lifetime easily.

[@nirvonna]

@@effexon None of that changes the basic nature of animals (humans included) to destroy their own habitat by using up resources and over-populating itself to its own detriment. My point. This happens when sufficient restraints-such as predators-are not available to curtail the population overshoot of a given species, coupled with their insatiable resource diminishment. Sure humans “put sugar on top” in all sorts of ways, “education” and what-have-you. We’re exceptionally “smart” after all-too smart for our britches, just smart enough to unwittingly and helplessly destroy the habitat of the entire planet. But hey, we’re just doing what animals do when the opportunity presents itself, and in the case of Homo sapiens-in spades.

[@drdeanrea]

I think all guests should watch the Bill Rees episode before they record their own. Even better, all humans should watch the Bill Rees episode! And read "World scientists’ warning: The behavioural crisis driving ecological overshoot"!

[@FREEAGAIN432]

amazing conversation, so inspiring and informative on many levels. COMPLEXITY

[@ineffabledialect]

Deeply appreciate the insight and wisdom coming through this conversation. Thank you so much.

[@j.hanleysmith8333]

Thank you Nate, another banger.

[@andywilliams7989]

At school we used to watch videos of being taken around factories. We had a basic idea of where things came from (there were less things). A few years ago my children had a school lesson on eggs. It was all on one page, and was mostly a consumer guide to understand the different levels of animal cruelty in the egg industry, and what the numbers printed on the eggshell correspond to. There wasn't even a single sentence about it being a reproductive exo organ..FFS! I offered the school a free trip to my farm to come and see pasture raised chickens and chicken tractors and a chicken powered compost refining "machine", meet some chickens and do some comparisons between types of eggs...they never took it up.

[@jamesmeehan4209]

Yes but what happens to the male Chicken and how much resources is used in the eggs industry millions of Chicken are in Factory farms and the chicken have to be killed why don't they have a right to live and not be abuse or cruelty towards them 80 billions animals that are slaughter each day for meat eating and drinking milk products this is causing a great deal of suffering for the animals. They have a right to live in this world just as humanly says their lives are important so are animals

[@effexon]

I loved those trips as kid.... sadly as adult it is not as possible as dayjob is such.

[@A3Kr0n]

"Premier, must watch episode". I've gone back and watched all episodes. Some more than once.

[@jenniferl8714]

Fabulous chat Nate. I’m sure most people who hear this would be fascinated and want to know more. I’d love to hear a deep dive on batteries, including how ‘China is massively ahead’. Cheers to you from Australia ❤

[@mariaamparoolivergarza8933]

Lovely to hear this informed optimism view of things.

[@erwin643]

My own recent story with glass: Being involved professionally in the preparedness meme, I watched an episode of S2 Underground here on YT, where it featured Soviet trench periscopes. They were described in this video as a "force multiplier" (They can be used not only over fences and outdoor walls, but around corners). Since it's just the wife and I, when anyone mentions the term "force multiplier," I'm all ears. These periscopes date back to the 1930's, but the U.S. and other western countries have never made a comparable version of their own (The U.S. did contract with a toy manufacturer during the Afghan war, and... Yeah. You could brake the thing by sitting on it. They ended-up being retailed on Ebay for $30.00 each. The original gov't contract was $600.00 each). So I ordered one from Ebay. My expectations were exceeded! Not only was it in new, unused condition, it was manufactured in Poland in 1952! The glass itself is excellent quality! Even better, it has a built-in stadiametric range finder, which I researched and learned how to use. And when used properly, is just as accurate as a laser rangefinder! It's a Survivalism-400 (Signature Management) kind of thing, but you don't want to turn on IR illuminators or use laser range finders at night, when other people have night vision devices around you. In addition, THESE THINGS ARE TOUGH. They can even be used as a melee weapon. You can both jab someone with the pointed top-end as well as hit someone over the head with it as a bludgeon. I've instructed the wife with this use as well.

[@pascalxus]

simply amazing. i can't believe i didn't even know that glass was made of sand! everytime i watch a nate hagens video, i realize how deficient my "education" was.

[@edwinmassie]

Fantastic episode!

[@michaelstevens6762]

Nate, great interview - I have not read his book, but my sense is you brought asked questions that Ed answered with some of the wisdom that he had arrived at while writing the book, but that he might not have shared had you not queried about the downstream effects of some of his research. His remarks about the complexity of our economy, and the amazing reality that nobody has, or is making, maps of the complexity of our economic complexity - and fragility were amazing. I was reminded of William Carlos Williams poem: To Elsie - the first lines and the last: The pure products of America go crazy .... No one to witness and adjust, no one to drive the car

[@DonTrell]

Freshly coming off of my readings of Joseph Tainter - this is definitely gonna be a great episode for me. Cheers Nate/guest & Team

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Thank you Ed Conway: 15 tons per capita steel. Thank you Nate.

[@piltdownman5592]

Brilliant podcast! Astute and expertly presented! Question though: What about water?

[@zionic8]

Fantastic interview

[@rupertnewton]

Grt talk, i have the book, terrific reference, ed’s a very good communicator

[@dutchgirl7603]

Looking forward to reading Ed's book . Also highly recommend reading Colbalt Red.

[@wvhaugen]

Yes, Ed Conway is spot on when he focuses on what is really required for the "modern economy." However, there is an assumption here - shared by both Ed and Nate - that state-level society and its consequent iteration of civiilization is a GOOD thing. Since states and civilizations depend on slavery and wars, that is a dicey assumption, to say the least. I myself an unequivocal. My view is that the state is the problem that underlies all other problems. As I have said many times before: 1) economic, social and political collapse is inevitable, 2) any model that doesn't include collapse as one of its scenarios is invalid, and 3) spending a great deal of energy trying to save a failed system brings on collapse that much sooner. In economic-speak, there is a huge opportunity cost in trying to reform the present system. At 7:40 ff, Ed asks, "What are the key materials for a modern economy?" I would argue that this is backwards. We need basic things for life in a low-tech economy. States arise because of the surpluses produced through low-tech means. Only after that can states build a modern economy and only then embrace high-tech. A lot of things we think we need are just add-ons. We will find out which ones after collapse. Salt and iron of course. But lithium? I doubt it. Modern electronics will become just a faded memory. Here is an iron example. At Valsgärde, Sweden, during the Vendel Period (the period between the Migration Period and the Viking Age), there was a very high ratio of spears to swords in graves. Why? During this period the scale of Roman sword-making had dropped to nothing because of collapsed supply chains. In the far north, iron was made from bog iron and it took more iron and expertise to make a sword than a spearhead or arrowhead. The adaptation was one of regressing to more abundant materials (wood) and this led to adaptations of tactics and strategy. (Think shallow draft raiding ships made of wood, hit-and-run tactics, stealing gold, silver and slaves to trade in markets that are more available because of the ships, etc.) In the same sense, collapse will lead to not only reduced levels of resources, but adaptation of behaviors to deal with the new (actually old!) realities. My parents had nine children because they needed labor to milk the cows and grow crops. Ed's four children may come in handy after he flees London for Yorkshire and Cumbria and has to raise sheep to survive. And by the way, there are still lime kilns in the Yorkshire Dales that can be rebuilt to produce lime for cement.

[@danielfaben5838]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. It is a creative act to contemplate getting off the increasingly rapid approach to the cliff. Insisting on enslaving the planet has never been a good idea.

[@dan2304]

There are plenty of people who understands how the world works, just very few are economists.

[@ajay4319]

This is exactly what I needed. I was always wondering what is and where is all the stuff/raw materials around us coming from and how much of it do we have. My heart skips a beat when I think deep enough into this issue and speculate about the times when the supply of these raw materials will decrease and eventually end. The more I learn about these things the more I realise that I'm no where near to understanding the entirety of this complex system. We humans are just so ignorant about this. All of us are on the course of falling off from a cliff but no one seems to see it. This video gave me a great introduction for me to go deeper into the subject. I just finished by bachelor's in engineering in computer science but still when I use a smartphone or a laptop, I just wonder about it's workings and it's existence as a whole. It's always there in the back of my mind, a rough idea of the complexities present in the device I'm using. Humans have God like powers. We need wisdom to steer that power in the right direction. Thank you so much Nate and Thank you so much to Ed for sharing your knowledge. We need more people like you both.

[@jjuniper274]

Plastic often uses Cu and Fe. Cu pigments and Fe for reinforcement material. And then there are petrochemicals.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

copper sulfide mining is highly toxic pollution. Strange he thinks it's so fantastic.

[@clarkdavis5333]

Fascinating!

[@y0udecide]

What about calcium carbonate (limestone) which underpins concrete manufacturing? Also water should be on this list.

[@Mikell-h2c]

Number one on the list

[@Lyra0966]

@y0udecide And phosporous!

[@iczgighost]

Great podcast guest, Nate! Regarding critical choke points in the supply chain, it makes sense to me the data is not publicly available. it's a matter of national security. Mapping critical dependencies is a core function of logistics management. The rapidly evolving software systems on which our global supply chain depends relies completely on automated dependency mapping and regression testing to maintain a worst-acceptable level of stability as these systems rapidly evolve in realtime. Hardened physical barriers and well-provisioned security teams protect the hardware. Just about anywhere in the world where the tread meets the highway, the social energy gradient required for the current economic system to thrive is maintained by a semipemeable membrane composed of barbed wire, a justification narrative, and men with guns. God damn, well I declare, have you seen the like? Their walls are built of cannon balls Their motto is "don't tread on me" - Robert Hunter

[@markalexander5124]

Superb, eye opening!

[@shannonwilliams7249]

Yes a top tier episode. Grateful.

[@mariamurmis4915]

Great interview. On this topic series , you could also have janez potočnik of the International Resource Panel.

[@mickbadgero5457]

Interesting conversation. Not a new one. Harrison Brown wrote about these problems in "The Challenge of Man's Future" in 1954. I have the 1960 paperback edition, and read it first back sometime in the 1970s. The "Things" chapter has tables for metals and minerals on pages 189 and 190.

[@timveromusic875]

Well that’s progress @1.32…. “they know that they don’t have a clue” . I will maintain my optimism😊 But seriously, fantastic knowledge imparted, thank you both

[@rupertnewton]

Last questions: Add farming and food to essential occupations..along with hard sciences, engineering etc

[@jonathanrider4417]

Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) plus Artificial Intelligence should be applied to make a model of our resource map. Great interview - thanks Nate and Ed!

[@LeafRhetoric]

And possibly any additional efficiencies in materials and energy gained by AI will be consumed by AI. AI for AI sake.

[@aryaman05]

".... spend the whole 90 minute talk on a single material." - how accurate !😊👍

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

We'll surprise ourselves that we can adjust rear view mirrors manually and survive without bacon

[@radman1136]

If any of us survive the upcoming bottleneck, the one certainty we can look forward to, is that there won't be any economists on the other side.

[@danielfaben5838]

That is a rockin' classic.

[@stewartderekbarker-bo9kg]

Good conversation 👍 👍👍👍✌️✌️✌️

[@PACotnoir1]

Numerous books addressing this topic have been penned in French by authors such as Guillaume Pitron, Philippe Bihouix, Benoît de Guillebon, Yves-Marie Abraham, Alain Deneault, Jean-Baptiste Fressoz, and Laurent Testot. It is quite unfortunate that bilingualism is not more prevalent in the Anglosphere. Incidentally, I recommend reading "The New China Playbook - Beyond Socialism and Capitalism" by Keyu Jin to overcome preconceived notions about planning in China.

[@Soundthenew22]

Thank you for more options to explore down this rabbit hole😊

[@alexandrabryden6143]

Love how now you appreciate how things are made. It's always a topic of conservation on how people didn't have a clue how things were made. I am a maker.

[@Ritastresswood]

In all academic disciplines, there are half wits. Best to encourage these academics to be more critical about the limitations of their knowledge and the consequences of arrogance. We all need to continue learning about the world and our relationship with each other- the consequences of enmity and friendships. Learning how the physical world works is one thing, learning how we can exist in harmony is another. A good exercise for the STEM students would be learning how to use the Input and Output economic model for energy in time of WAR and in time of Peace.

[@urallwyz3498]

Please interview David Van Wyk of Benchmarks foundation who measure mining impacts and remediation of mining in environment and communities around Sub Saharan South Africa. He has a wealth of knowledge of mining in Africa and its effects. He exposes the lack of corporate accountability. It can complement such stories as this.

[@barrycarter8276]

I know it’s a conversation Nate (don’t upset the guests, and all that), so not an investigative interview. But it seemed to me that for all the research Ed Conway carried out for his book “Material World: A Substantial Story of Our Past and Future” there was nothing new just a re-enforcement of what anyone interested in key mineral resource mining and supply side financial issues should know. It’s ironical there’s also another book doing the rounds Ernest Scheyder’s “The War Below: AS HEARD ON BBC RADIO 4 ‘TODAY’: Lithium, copper, and the global battle to power out lives”. Financial Sense Newshour's Jim Puplava speaks with energy expert Robert Bryce and mining engineer Simon Michaux (yes the very same colleague of yours Nate) a discussion about the long-term outlook for resources and mining in light of green energy policies and China's strategic plan for supply chain dominance. This recent talk is on KZbin “Financial Sense - Michaux and Bryce on China's 2050 Master Plan, Green Energy Breakdown” what a contrast it is from your conversation with the preverbal optimist Ed Conway🤔

[@Ritastresswood]

45’ “nobody talks to anybody - but we will need them all” The architectures of real economies depends on the emergence of bundles of technologies that take brains, hard work and time to put together.

[@HansSprungfeld716]

Excellent 🔥

[@SeventhCircleID]

...I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with a Daily Mail, Telegraph and Sky News journalist... and I really never expected to hear him talk about the post war consensus and Bretton Woods agreements in such reverent terms...

[@stefanbernardknauf467]

On sand, some say there will be peak sand, but probably hard to sustain, as there isn't as much study as on oil. But good quality sand is rare, and Belgium and especially my region, the Kempen, is one of world's best spots for pure sand. Same as for oil, it'll get more expensive to mine.

[@stephenboyington630]

If they start making videos for economics students about mining and salt production and silicon chip manufacturing, they should all be narrated by Troy McClure.

[@edgeman148]

This is great as always, I can't recall, has Dr Simon Michaux been on TGS yet?

[@anthonytroia1]

1:33:18 👏Here here! We (environmentalists) rarely celebrate modernity's accomplishments. It would behoove us to reflect on our engineering triumphs and consider what they may* portend for the (deep?) future.

[@drmikejoy]

Great stuff and i enjoyed Ed's book, but one thing that grates with me is the assumption, that how we live in the wealthy countries should be a something to aim for. I mean the implied goal for people is to get to our crazy levels of consumption like its something good and that we are "developed" and everyone else would want to have our levels of "development". Then the annoying technophilia and optimism the expectation that we can have the same level of energy consumption in the future when it is this level of surplus energy that has driven our exceeding multiple planetary boundaries.

[@karlwheatley1244]

"Great stuff and i enjoyed Ed's book, but one thing that grates with me is the assumption, that how we live in the wealthy countries should be a something to aim for." Given that it's totally unsustainable and was only made possible by exploiting other people and the planet, yeah, let's ditch that assumption.

[@braeburn2333]

Most sand for construction comes from a rock quarry that has a rock crusher. You can make a lot of sand from big rocks with a crusher. The sand you get from a riverbed or a beach, usually has rounded edges from rolling around in the water for so long. Concrete strength is higher with crushed sand because its edges are sharp and angular instead of rounded, so its often required in building big buildings or bridges.

[@peterbranagan1010]

What about the energy required to crush the rocks into sand?

[@mycylinder1]

And thus the need for a Resource Based Economy

[@lindsaysmith8119]

Did you happen to visit the iron ore mines in north west of Western Australia where they produce almost 1 billion tonnes of the stuff every year. The scale of the operations will blow you away.

[@johndinsdale1707]

Ed could you review the UK Net Zero target plans in terms of stuff required in the transition?

[@bunsw2070]

No worries. It will only take 100 years of the world's total lithium production and consume more hydrocarbons then the existing solutions. But don't worry. You wont have to start at the beginning again for 20 years.

[@Soundthenew22]

Talking ‘pinch points’-I wonder if it would help to work out a flow chart to identify the bottlenecks and find alternatives and other sources to increase flow without sacrificing profit and production.

[@buzinaocara]

1:32:35 "when people signed up for net zero, nobody in that room had a clue what that would entail" yeah, no shit. The fact that anyone raising any alarm bells was instantly labeled as a "science-denier", "conspiracy theorist"c "far-right", etc did not help, now did it?

[@donalfromupnorth4856]

During this discussion, the question was posed: when excesses are created by technological advancement, why does this lead to Jevan's paradox rather than a banking or conservation if the excesses? The question seemed to assume a stable population, but population numbers continue to rise exponentially. This phenomenon feeds the growth mandate of capitalism by creating ever increasing demand, leading to more technological development, which consumer excesses gains and more. I'm not arguing for increased human population, quite the contrary. It's one of the main factors that contributed to this mess. The economies of scale, created by such a large population led to technological increases and greater natural resource exploitation. By example, if the global human population was one billion or less, we would likely not have cell phones. It wouldn't make financial sense to invest in the network of towers needed. Amortizing the cost of those towers over a much smaller customer base would make the cost of service preventative. Human population, far past the Earth's carrying capacity, is a primary driver of our predicament.

[@RichardOhlrogge]

I wonder if the methods of forecasting weather using computer based climate models might be an interesting approach to highlighting the challenges we might face with disruptions to supplies of resources. In this case AI sourced analysis of resource availability would be used to model disruptions in supply. In other words a particular, or combination of, resource/s would be examined to find where the availability, if compromised lets say by breakdown of limited source sites, would impact potentially global economies. AI is a prefect tool to perform these types of analyses to highlight potential weaknesses in material flows!!

[@jackgoldman1]

The way to save the world so to speak is the Buddhist way. Don't do it. Don't go there. Don't build it. Have less. Live on less. Do less. Less is more. Humans are too inefficient. We need efficiency by not doing, cutting back. Tiny houses, 8'x12', 96 square feet, electric bicycles, not cars, rice and beans, not restaurants. As long as we have restaurants, airplanes, wrapping paper instead of Sunday funnies, we are not going to make it. Too much waste. The energy is 80% to move the car, 20% for the human. Too much waste.

[@evilryutaropro]

I’m sure you’ve asked him but you need to get Vaclav Smil on here. The opening bit about the 6 materials reminded me of his 4 materials

[@davidgarza1301]

I hear Vaclav is pretty notorious for turning down all kinds of interviews.

[@stefanbernardknauf467]

Hello Nate. Right to start with, your introduction makes me think that current world economy, coupled with internet, which is based on one single language, binary code, is very much like the Babylon of the Bible.

[@YeTao-i4v]

Worrying about the scale of the current levels of material use is rooted in a false assumption that the same building style, urbanization trends, and fossil fuel-enabled flow of materials would persist into the future. Once one realizes that ruralization and decentralization of production are the future then, for instance, alternative building materials such as bamboo would become relevant topics for discussion.

[@MichaelReynolds-rn5jl]

Why are we not talking more about bioregional collective provisioning strategies? These could solve a lot of the complexity issues with our global supply chain and reestablish relationships with the land on which we walk.

[@johndavis2399]

Very engaging and critical discussion.......which is typically overlooked in the "crisis" community. Well done gentlemen. It is noteworthy, from the political angle, that two of the three major world powers --China and Russia---- are authoritarian systems, and that the US is leaning that way. Conversely. the global supply chain is loosely knit....and vulnerable to numerous random events. (It is amazing that the iPhones keep rolling out without any major interruptions.) It seems some sort of governmental intervention (would that be authoritarian?) will be necessary to divert the "market" from its resource rampage...... "Is our over-consumption due to human nature or the economic system?" How about pointing the finger at the financial system?........which is fundamentally based on growth.

[@aerobique]

*CAPITALISM* - that is the word

[@treefrog3349]

On the subject of resource scarcity I would encourage everyone to familiarize themselves with a new documentary entitled "The Grab". I would encourage anyone who has the opportunity to do so, to bring a "vomit bag" with you. Unless you are filthy rich, it is bound to be an unsettling experience.

[@noahsark2009]

There is or maybe there was a company called ambri Which was brought by NEC Whose whole focus was making?Battery spaced on local materials, Such as calcium and antimony Or many others. The batteries Were often in the form of liquid metal, that didn't wear out.

[@kenwarren4441]

I’ve heard the pyramids of Giza were actually made with concrete. Does anyone know about this? A block was sliced through and human hair and other things were found inside huge blocks. Everyone always marveled at how the blocks were moved. What if they poured them on site? I’m really curious and a bit cynical.

[@MichaelWolfe1000]

....for those of us who speak Spanish, aluminium si just fine, sounds very much like "aluminio"....so don't change.