Custer vs. Crazy Horse | Part 3 | Horse-Lords of the Plains

[@eliseleonard3477]

I married into a Navajo family and began watching this series with dread, but I’m so happy that you treat the Indian characters in this story as full humans, just as with Custer and the other characters of European descent. It’s wild that so many liberal folks here still see Native Americans as uniquely stoic/spiritual/magical without realizing that this attitude is just as paternalistic and (to use a woke word) ‘othering’ as more blatant racism. People are just people, though as with any meeting of cultures there’s a lot to learn. The intertribal rivalries you describe are still an obstacle in the fight for sovereignty, though obviously much less than in the 1870’s.

[@ThomMorrison]

excellent series, gentleman you add wonderful flesh to the sterile facts of history

[@d.c.8828]

Excellent podcast from Pale Sparrow & Lazy Dog!

[@phillipdrake4371]

This channel is criminally underrated, my new favorite channel I’m gonna listen to every podcast now, thank you giving me hours of entertainment and education while I work 😅 😉

[@TheAnadromist]

An anecdote from Alaska, where I lived for 22 years. I lived in Southeast Alaska in Haines among the Tlingit Indians. A friend Dirk, now passed away, told me a story. He was a wry Christian Tlingit man. One of the more New Age inclined Tlingit men was telling a couple cruise ship tourists about native spirituality. My friend overheard him and was irked by the oozing spiritual smugness. So he leaned over and injected the following words into the conversation. "Don't forget to tell them how we used to bury our enemies up to their necks in sand at low tide."

[@ld3418]

My husband worked with the Tlingit for a number of years in Juneau, Alaska. True, true and so funny. Beautiful museum in Anchorage for those tribes. We are of a southern tribe, Chickasaw, interbred from one immigrant group after another and never went to res. So yea, the new woowoo ideas are really out of touch with the reality of what was and still is on the reservations, actually.

[@babscabs1987]

Seems like a lot of work, digging a big hole?

[@michaellambeth]

Thank you so much. This is my new favorite way to decompress from all the stresses of our modern world

[@ld3418]

Intersting our territories crossed with the Lakota enemies, since my ancestral tribe, the Chickasaw also killed any Crow on site, they had such enmity, and vice versa. Love this series!

[@eshaibraheem4218]

So interesting; I could listen for hours. Thank you.

[@suedaniels4722]

The photos add to the educative narrative so much and very appreciated. Would it be possible to leave them up for 10 seconds longer, that won't detract from the dialogue in any way.

[@jeffbybee5207]

Agreed. Talking heads are boring

[@paul_hiles]

"Deep down I know it's a dog" made me proper belly laugh 🤣

[@grahamtravers4522]

So the natives didn't agree with owning land, but they DID believe in fighting other tribes to own the right to hunt on a particular piece of land. It's a VERY fine distinction, which to most people wouldn't be a distinction at all.

[@JerusnamWien85]

Exactly, because it’s not about holding the land title in your hand in order to be allowed to hunt on that land. This is something that the settlers used to contest the rights of the indigenous peoples to the land.

[@justme8837]

I absolutely love your channel... great work!!!

[@johnrohde5510]

It probably was no small part in the Lakota's enthusiasm for war that they had been winning wars for a while beforehand.

[@Ross-e9o]

Yes, ask the Crow.

[@christophercarrier2902]

Kudos for noting the importance of the Proclamation of 1763, a cause of the Revolution cited far too rarely.

[@the_tyler_vaughn]

Great series so far! Can wait for more!!

[@Jaymark-gk4li]

All my lot back in '50s/'60s rooted for the Natives tbh..uk England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@matthabir4837]

Of course you did... bloody savages...

[@babscabs1987]

I used to go raving at a club in Bristol called Lakota.

[@Sean-fb7cy]

Thank god iv found your channel ❤

[@PFWoody488]

Now for a Tom Holland style interjection: " ...touched him with a very long stick." According to the British Museum, a coup stick was 50-55 cm long. A "very long" coup stick would have diminished the act of bravery that was it's very purpose.

[@nanavango9374]

Gentlemen, I highly recommend The Journey of Crazy Horse by Joseph Marshall III, an Oglala elder. Many questions will be answered.

[@CinRife]

Sicangu elder

[@nanavango9374]

@@CinRife Thank you

[@jono8884]

You should consider a look at the Comanche who ruled the southern plains at the same time. Possibly the most feared and powerful tribe considered the best horsemen. Another fascinating episode is the Black Hawk War which pushed the Sauk and Fox out of Illinois.

[@unclerojelio6320]

The Texas State Bison Herd is at Cap Rock Canyon State Park in the Texas Panhandle. Most days the bison will hang out on either side of the road and pose for photos.

[@justme8837]

All peoples/lands have been fought over to some degree. Unfortunately atrocities are committed on people but what happened in the US is not different than what has happened everywhere else throughout time. Hopefully we all learned from the mistakes of the past and the terrible things that happened won't ever again.

[@brandini1876]

America is always up for grabs and modern Americans are soon to find that out.

[@triplecap4307]

you should consider doing something on the comanche

[@notsomeanmark]

Absolutely love the show. It's like dessert for history lovers.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

28:37 Don't forget West Dakota.

[@MrDerbyCounty]

Great episode!!

[@Chadhogan111]

That was quick........

[@MrDerbyCounty]

@@Chadhogan111 ha, already listened via Spotify the other day!

[@unclerojelio6320]

Josiah Pugh Wilbarger survived being scalped as well.

[@Nate-bq2ik]

Good recovery, the new age shop Is bs , If you get a chance go and are invited go to drum circle , go visit the Rez , usually got the best fireworks, not the point, the real culture today is low key, less practiced but at the same time its alive in how they live , cook, take care of each, the community is much tighter than many others. I live in Pacific NW surrounded by reservations, had native buddies so got the chance to learn, experience somethings.

[@richardcutt727]

There seems to have been a pervading sense of the preternatural at the battle of the LBH. Did Sitting Bull place his prayer offerings on Last Stand Hill or Weir Point? Likely the 7th Cav horses 🐎 rode over them.

[@williambranch4283]

There still are real Native Americans. My best friend is a Lakota spirit warrior. He follows the Great Spirit. I respect him for that. Always on the edge Native culture but not in it ... I feel privileged.

[@lusolad]

Do the fucking Europeans have a right to everything?!!!

[@LittleLouieLagazza]

Fantastic. Would love to see HIS warrior-worthy DD-214. Generally, if non-natives are on the premises...it's hokey commercialization, not privilege. WAKE UP

[@Pinakij]

Woke bloke.. reservation Indians are meth addicts now, the only thing they're guarding is the doors to the casino

[@agharries]

I got really excited at the mention of Bozeman, Montana. Was also wondering if they are Star Trek fans as well.

[@d.c.8828]

@29:13 Would've been a great time to interject the famous Jean-Jacques Rousseau quote from Discourse on the Origin of Inequality:

[@d.c.8828]

"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody." --Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality, 1755 C.E.

[@christophercarrier2902]

But JJR had no point, because that happened so early in human history.

[@jeffreyhill4705]

I have visited Fort Robinson Nebraska where Crazy Horse was killed and the Little Bighorn. To me it looked like the high ground was a death trap. The Hill has a steep side on one side, that might be impossible for horses to go down, and trench like ravens, that allowed for a covered approach with supporting fields of fire. Once Custer was on that hill, there was no way off. There is a narrow valley some of that troop made it to, about half a mile away, it offered more cover, but no escape.

[@jaymes4750]

22:26 “he still killed them” lol

[@robertalpy]

The perception hasn't changed as much as you think.

[@JJ_hehehehehe]

Tom “I’m off to picking berries” Holland

[@brek5]

It wasn't just the Native Americans using bear grease as a hair pomade. "Bear Grease" was still a product into the '30s (and I'm not sure if it made it much longer than that). I work in something film related, and I've had mentions of it in early talkies, and you can look up the song "Allegheny Al" for a mention of it as well, haha. Now, I don't know if this was whitey adopting that from the natives or what, but it's there. (For those who can't be bothered to search it, the lyric is "Bear grease on his hair makes him shine like candy, Allegheny Al.") Lol.

[@eshaibraheem4218]

Thanks for that.

[@_BirdOfGoodOmen]

50:53 you could use Männerbund but I think that terms a tad loaded. :p

[@Eadbhard]

Even though Crazy Horse was a bit odd, he was an excellent warrior. He was also a popular and beloved leader among his people, as was Sitting Bull. For all of that, were it not for their victory over Custer's troops at the Little Bighorn, these two men probably would have been only a footnote on the pages of American history. Now, the great Oglala war chief, Red Cloud, he was a warrior that needs to be revered. Red Cloud was the only Native American in history who forced the United States to surrender to his demands. This occurred as a result of Red Cloud's War. Nothing against Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, but Red Cloud was one of the greatest Natives that ever lived, as was Tecumseh of the Shawnee.

[@Chadhogan111]

Looking forward to your 4-part on the Glorious Revolution

[@bearhustler]

I'd love to hear an episode or two about the Mexican-American war, it gets nowhere near enough coverage.

[@afwalker1921]

At 34:48, Crazy Horse is said to be androgynous. These are the people one should watch for. These are the people who can be most dangerous. The divine is both, is all. Anyone who can connect with this has power. He was a holy man.

[@jeffreyhill4705]

So many of the common names for Native American tribes are not from the question to a tribe members, what should we call you, but from an already contacted tribe answering the question, who are they? Often the answer was derogatory slang, like Sioux, or Anasazi.

[@alphasierramike2091]

On the breaches of treaties, could we say the same behaviour we observe today in Brazil. In Brazil the state tries to stop the deforestation of the Amazon. The fazendeiros, garimpeiros in the pursuit of earning a living continue to challenge and ignore the government ( there are other interest at play too.).

[@Myohomoto]

What about the Apache?

[@oliverjamito9902]

Remember thy conversations given? Indeed given 80-100 years. Now asked? Who ye are talking too unseen, unto thyself, nor unto one another? If ye can't recognize my own in front of thee? Can't recognize Who?

[@CinRife]

Let me tell you a true story...on my rez where i am from down on the river bottoms there are still Lakota who speak the language they are young Lakota and they know the ways...maybe they are around tech a bit but they are fully lakota without the war games and buffalo

[@richardcutt727]

Fascinating. The Aztecs I have read, indulged in human sacrifice including child sacrifice. This seems to have been eschewed by the northern native peoples. Any comment?

[@martinhelgren]

Actually some recent research estimates the number of inhabitants of North America a lot higher "pre disease". Many of the tribes may have gone sort of "back to nature" out of decimation of the population. Not unlike the huge cities of the Amazon. Also horse DNA shows that the plains tribes got horses already in the 16th century, so it seems the plains were a dynamic melting pot of conquest from horse back through out the 17th and 18th centuries. This also explains the legendary horsemanship of the plains tribes.

[@primecuts13]

I believe the Comanche would have been an example of a plains indian that hadn't emigrated to their land because of the European pressure. It's surprising that among the list of indians mentioned the Comanche didn't get a shout out! They're probably the most powerful indian nation to have existed.

[@kennethquinnies6023]

The indians were damn lucky Custer didnt bring his gatling gun company to the battle.

[@Wacoal34d]

any consideration of movie "Hostiles"? That showed the depth of violence between the conflict between the eastern newcomers and indigenous peoples.

[@WHITERAGS]

While the passenger pigeon is extinct, the buffalo, fortunately, are not. The amount remaining are a remnant of the great herds.

[@Jameszet1609]

‘Return of the horse’ 😂

[@lusolad]

The Sioux weren't the only ones with eagle feather headdress.

[@manchester.misfit6297]

8:46 😂😂😂

[@ChristopherSLucas-hv7nz]

The idea that the Souix did not undetstand the "ownership" of land is condescending and counter factual. The primary indicia of ownership is exclusive usecand possession. Any Crow found on Lakota land would likely be killed . . . or worse. This is because Lakota believed that they owned the land.

[@piushalg5041]

Yes the native Americans had rooted out the horses. It was the Spaniards who brought them back.

[@jerrylev59]

"The White Man is trying to drive us off our ancestral tribal land!" "How long have your people inhabited this land?" "Since at least last summer, when we drove off that wretched other tribe."

[@d.c.8828]

"Sioux" is actually a slur. *Edit: Glad y'all touched on that.

[@2balastair]

What a fascinating comparison there is in the white expansionism in the West of the US and the driving out the local Khoi and later Bantu peoples here in South Africa. I'm not sure if it was Cecil John Rhodes himself or one of his disciples in the discussion about white land ownership, who said that it was a mark of the state of uncivilisation of the indigenous peoples here in South Africa that they had no concept of land ownership by a deed of sale. However I think for the whites coming out of a civilisation built on Christian (supposedly) priciples, a truly biblical view of land is much closer to the indigenous idea that no-one owns the land but God. And we just have to somehow negotiate grazing rights and accept our settlements are always tempoary.("Here we have no lasting city" and "The Earth is the Lord's" says the Bible). And whatever tenure there is, and there is ownership, but only under God. And it is strictly by God's revelation. So when God divides it up between the 12 tribes of Israel, even when it gets sold it must always revert back to the original owner each Jubilee

[@jamesmurray3889]

The idea that the american Indian had no concept of owning land is ludacris and shocking that such intelligent men like you guys would believe it. They killed eachother over it. No tribe would dare pass into anothers land without reprisal. Since the dawn of man land has had value and men have killed eachother for it.

[@Ross-e9o]

Quite right, the Sioux cast a swathe through the tribes they encountered as they moved west from the Minnesota forests in the late 18th century. Dare I say they lived by the sword and they died the same way when they encountered superior technology

[@drstrangelove4998]

We over romanticise. Why were there so many Indian scouts on the US Cavalry payroll with Custer, deadly enemies of the Lakota Sioux, tribes who were chased out of their homeland in the Black Hills and wanted revenge. The Sioux were originally migrants from the Great Lakes in the east and chased out by the Chippewa. Moving west they at some point adopted horses, and in turn firearms and became more aggressive. The name Sioux can mean roughly enemy or snake.

[@shock_n_Aweful]

We really need to get past this whole notion that the native Americans had no concept of land ownership because it is demonstrably false. They fought over territory with whites and with each other, even long before they even arrived. The black hills are a classic example of land that more than one tribe felt belonged to them. Of course nomadic people will have a different view of it but still they see it as their ancestral lands.

[@JerusnamWien85]

The white settlers used this trickery to claim that the indigenous peoples did not have ownership over the land because they were nomadic. Same trick they pulled elsewhere during colonialism in Africa.

[@tonykehoe123]

Dear Tom . I have a Gibson acoustic guitar made in bozeman . Just saying 👍

[@coldwar45]

Yep their plant has been there since the 80s

[@RoyalDee-n9h]

More visual media please🙏

[@roberthayes9842]

My mother told me from birth I was the grand child of a native American, turns out I'm Irish, Scottish American, so I'm not big shit after all

[@TheGoodShipBlue]

The Rest is your podcast used to be good... when we could listen to it

[@martinmakepeace6235]

STAY ON TOPIC

[@marcellacantoni8128]

“indigenous people” is used a lot

[@michaelkennedy3372]

They won't now because you've spoiled it.

[@ToddSauve]

Actually, while Crazy Horse is a celebrated Lakota warrior and most people know who he is, Sitting Bull is the more well known Lakota because he was a chief and indeed the only Lakota who was ever chosen as the head chief of all the free Lakota in the history of the tribe. "Tatanka Iyotake," his Lakota name, was also a war chief and a "medicine man." I hope you two will rectify this in your next broadcast, though I suppose it is already in the can, as they say. The quotation you took from the newspaper interview with Sitting Bull took place at Fort Walsh, a North-West Mounted Police outpost in the Cypress Hills of what is now southwestern Saskatchewan, after an abortive peace council, so to speak, between the US government and the Lakota who had crossed over onto the great plains of western Canada following the Battle of the Little Bighorn. It was Charles Diehl of the Chicago Times who recorded the interview with Sitting Bull at Fort Walsh about 8:30 in the evening of October 17, 1877. My great grandfather, who came West in 1875, established a ranch just four miles south of Fort Walsh back in the 1800s and my cousins still own and run it to this day. 🤠

[@griffhenshaw5631]

The perception that indians all nice preservers of nature etc is simplistic and wrong. Some beliefs translate to modern sensibilities others illustrate strong trust in visions. The ghost dance shows a naive dangerous trust in visions. In both cases idealized memories. Presentism over history does it an injustice. I grew up on a ranch next to rservations. I still prefer life in the country. Indians were cowboys cowboys were closer to indians. Im from farther west. Also part indian. My grandmother looked at local indians as a lower tribe. Intra indian competition. Now there are casinos. Medicine is like ju ju.

[@hiervi]

+1

[@alphasierramike2091]

You guys going to talk how California, New Mexico was taken over by the Gringos. Something not talk about in how Spanish legal ownership which existed suddenly was ignored? Given this how was a group of people who have different view of property are able to face up the avalanche.

[@drstrangelove4998]

And who did the Spanish take NM and California from?

[@MALONMcVEY]

You begin by mocking Sitting Bull. Then you share all the negative untrue gossip about Native America, which is demonstrably untrue. The rest is history much?

[@christineheppenstall7078]

Perhaps you should try this all over again from a woman’s perspective….try it. Perhaps it would wipe the smirk from your voices.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop and my beloved, remember the meaning of the Meeks! Nor Keepers of my FOOTSTOOL! Why shared Feet without 1ST preserve a Permanent Foundation no one can uproot nor shaken but here to stay for good? What is time? Nor why WHO said come forth? Time will say, for the ACCUSERS little ones without fault! Vengeance knows? Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Knows sitteth upon? Knows HIS VOICE?

[@tarquinbullocks1703]

You need to get back on your meds, mate.

[@arden8290]

Almost nobody was insulted by "Washington Redskins"

[@robertcottam8824]

I dunno. Joe Theismann could be quite cutting on occasion; Art Monk was very sarcastic and John Riggins downright rude. Pip pip.

[@KeepingTheIronThroneWarm]

Indeed. And do you hear the Irish complaining about Notre Dame University's mascot? Do the Scandinavians complain about the Minnesota Vikings mascot? On and on.

[@bradhaupt1759]

Washington Rednecks

[@waynelayton8568]

Shameful they changed the name. So stupid of people who have strange feelings and behaviors

[@d.c.8828]

​@@KeepingTheIronThroneWarm​​ I'm offended that the Notre Dame mascot isn't a mime smoking a cigarette 🚬 whilst angrily waving a baguette! 🥖 SACREBLEU! 🤬

[@afwalker1921]

I understand that after Crazy Horse's father gave the name to him, the father took the name Pull-my-Finger...

[@oliverjamito9902]

Some will say, who is that little child born "i"? Flip the old table with many innocents bloods stains and many abominations have done unto the old table!

[@oliverjamito9902]

80-100 years given if luckily to live that long? For a true reason! Either or ye will see WHO? Fear come here in front! Remind unto all have exalted themselves above! Fear will say, instead FEAR HIM! Why? Fear will say, after HE KILLS THE BODY CAN KILL THY SOUL!

[@TheOriginalNiceGuy]

Can’t listen to anymore. Very disappointed with this podcast. I don’t want to hear about 90s chant music, or stopping every few minutes to give your opinion of who’s good or bad by today’s woke standards. Do better. You should’ve stuck to the facts and give an unbiased retelling.

[@buckdraper303]

Oh geez. Go read Encyclopedia Britannica. For those of us already familiar with the history, it's quite refreshing to hear two trained historians approach this content with insight and humor.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

4:45 "Native American" isn't any more authentic than "Indian." America was named for an Italian cartographer.