CZ Model S Prototype (1929)

/ forgottenweapons
This CZ Model S rifle is one of many prototypes made between the world wars in Czechoslovakia in an effort to develop a military semiautomatic rifle. Similar efforts were underway in most other countries at the same time (basically every place that had a mature arms industry), and a huge variety of ideas were tried out.
In this case, we have a gas operated, tilting bolt rifle design. It is chambered for the 8x57 Mauser cartridge, and uses a 10-round detachable magazine. This rifle has a 1929 acceptance mark, which dates it nicely for us. It was designed by a team including one of the Holek brothers, and did better than its competition in trials - but not well enough to be accepted by the Czech military or to attract any outside commercial interest. Holek would go on to design the ZH-29 rifle, and CZ would move on to a series of other designs that ultimately led to naught.
You can see my video on the ZH-29 here: • ZH-29 Semiauto Rifle

[@a.lampman2165]

I like how I'm part of a group of maybe 50,000 people all unified by their academic love for the history and internal workings of firearms. I feel like - with the help of this channel and a lifetime of apprenticing in machine shops - I could actually make some nifty guns. Ian, you're a hero for explaining how this stuff works as well as you do. ♥

[@hunterrichie2764]

As expensive as it was to make, disasembly looks quick and simple. This could have been an easy gun to train with.

[@jakesolver4359]

7 years later engagement because I love re-watching forgotten weapons videos!

[@sachaquadrelli4674]

Makes two of us... When the words Czech, self-loading, experimental and 1920s all appear in the same sentence, I just click immediately... Even if it is 7 years later!

[@Ml114n]

I hope this isn't too annoying to be bugged about but the place it was made in is called "Praha", also known as "Prague" in the anglosphere (and it's to this day the capital city of Czech Republic, as it was the capital of Czechoslovakia back then). "V Praze" which translates exactly to "in Prague" is a declension of the word - we change the last syllable of words depending on the context, like many other languages.

[@leary4]

It looks like such a nice simple design and either well polished or milled

[@hashbrown1969]

Ian, you better be doing a video on that "side toggle lock" Walther rifle RIA has. Looks very cool.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+hashbrown1969 Yep, I did one and it will post in about a week.

[@Bad_spark]

Wow! That bolt carrier layout is amazing. Compare this solution to all the tricks that are pulled in the Remington 7600, Browning BAR (the sporting rifle), HK SLB et.c. A lot of gas operated rifles with the piston below the barrel has the force transferred via plates on each side of the magazine, but it usually leads to a messy construction with tricky disassembly. This is just beautiful.

[@Sean_Coyne]

Man, the more of these videos I watch and the more I see of these early prototype mechanisms the more impressed I am with the machining. I have a decent workshop and such but figuring out how to mount and mill such cut-outs and curves etc to such standards would be really hard, a work of art in fact. Impressive stuff.

[@teufeldritch]

The amount of firearm information that's in your brain never ceases to astound me.

[@fjubben]

Really cool mechanics! Thank you for the video as always, Ian.

[@BeasBotBonanza]

Semi-auto/early prototype rifles are my favourite. Love these videos, thank you for making them.

[@Py7h0N357]

Dear Ian, Thank you for providing such quality videos. I'm glad I found your channel :)

[@nerome619]

so many semi-auto's not in common knowledge - the tale of the self-loading rifle is such a murky one!

[@jeffpierce6159]

magnificent machining. true old world craftsmanship. thx Ian.

[@xCrimsonxTidex]

It's hard to imagine that it failed the trials. Looks like an extremely reliable gun. Beautiful rifle and great video!

[@jerredweingarten4769]

Really beautiful bolt and bolt carrier.

[@sidneyhuckabee6974]

ive been watching your videos for a couple months now and they are always interesting keep up the good work ian

[@kyleno4mk27]

Looks like a very promising gun, of course i seem to say that about most Czech designs. When you compare what they were doing to in the late 20's to other nations offerings they really seem ahead of the curve to me. Also when i look at these Czech guns im a little mystified (well not really, mostly im just glad) that the Germans didn't make more use of them. P.S. Ian, you've been looking at a lot of prototypes, and also doing a lot of reliability testing yourself; what in your opinion made this gun unreliable? To my amateur eye, it looks like it should run pretty well.

[@yappojilla]

ahhhhh new developmental semiauto video! amazing!! easily my favorite kind of forgotten weapon. gotta give it to the Czechs, they know how to design! thx Ian great stuff as always.

[@kirkmooneyham]

Look at the beautiful machining of the receiver.

[@bokachoy]

That's a very cleaver rifle some pretty cool features. Good vid.

[@NeoAcario]

That is an absolutely beautifully preserved prototype...

[@Zbyhonj]

A tiny remark- "Praze" is a locative case of "Praha" (Prague), not a city on it's own. No big deal, it just sounded too funny when Ian said it :) And thanks for your vastly informative videos, I never suspected I would learn so much new things about Czechoslovakian small arms development!

[@nilsgensert5814]

I kind of noticed that the hammer strikes where the tilting bolt sits. since the firing pin is in the tilting part of the bolt, that means the hammer literally cannot fire the gun if it is not in battery. kind of a clever way to do that.

[@deepsouthredneck1]

This looks like a really practical design.

[@Racius19]

"v Praze" is inflected "in Prague". There is no Praza, it is Prague. "Czech Armory company in Prague"

[@chesterchow1]

beautiful semi

[@GuitARPlayr100]

The bolt carrier/assembly reminds me a lot of the Holek Automat (unsurprisingly) because of the shape of the bolt carrier, the tilting mechanism of the bolt, and the gas piston being basically part of the bolt carrier.

[@shoot171]

Thank you for showing us such a great piece of Czech(oslovakian) history.

[@f4ust85]

*Czechoslovak

[@randywatson8347]

Nice clever design

[@LEECHESANDCREAM]

Looks like a solid rifle.

[@commodork]

That rifle looks a treat to maintain.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

I've been waiting for this one! Always liked Czech-nology This is what I call a "Lotto gun," as in if I won the lottery this would be one of the first guns I'd buy

[@drmaudio]

I love the prototypes. Very interesting. While I am not commenting on the overall value or function of the gun, it seems ahead of it's time (and the Garand) in terms of disassembly, and simplicity.

[@1fanger]

Nice rifle, thanks

[@Jesses001]

That rifle is great. The design looks wonderfully simple and effective. It does not look too difficult to manufacture on a large scale. The only thing that would be easier is a stamp sheet metal weapon. The disassembly is about as simple as a disassembly can be. I love it. It is a shame it was not adopted by any major military and put into mass production.

[@ilikecoffeeilovefreedom7260]

impressively wellmade rifle

[@WhiskeyRiverRifleman]

pretty nice rifle!

[@johnh6561]

I wish CZ had more dealers in the US. I had to buy a CZ 527 online before I could shoulder one. Worth every penny!! 1/2 inch groups @ 100 yards out of a factory barreled .22 Hornet using hand-loaded custom COAL ammo.

[@ShootAUT]

What's most interesting to me is that it looks like an overall simpler and better thought-through rifle than what was tried 10 years later with the ČZ-39, which seems in comparison like one fustercluck of ideas and parts that were thrown together, even though it came out of the same factory in Strakonice. One could think that Strakonice didn't know what to do and how to do it without Holek.

[@jancz357]

"v Praze" means in Prague :) and Strakonice armory is now named LUVO arms I think, and they make ar15 among other things

[@JKTF476]

Thanks for another great vid. Sarco Inc is selling BM59 kits, that appears to be a garand clone, have you ever featured the BM59? That would seem to line up with the early semi auto service rifle theme. Also saw a german paratrooper rifle on a TV gun show, that was cool. Keep em coming.

[@kutamsterdam]

That system of the mainspring captive as in this rifle is that applied to todays modern rifles Ian and if so wich ones?.

[@EricKPoorManPrepper]

Wow very cool,.. didnt realize so many models were being tested. Looks like that would have been a relatively good rifle,.. even looks a little AR-ish in the way it hinges open...

[@fatman.reviews]

it's a great looking gun, would be nice to see it shoot,

[@wild50gunner]

A lot easier to field strip than most early semi auto's.

[@lepuuttelu]

Like some other commenters, I would be very curious to hear specifics on what reliability issues the rifle had, perhaps with some analysis of what may have caused them!

[@jacksonlewis4365]

this is actually a pretty brilliant design....

[@chpe2501]

Oddly the aesthetic design reminds me of the SVT. Though this would've come first.

[@TheAtomicEwok]

Ian are you gonna do a video about the Winchester model 1907 semi auto rifle? I heard quite a few made it into the trenches of the great war and even a selective fire version was made.

[@crazyfvck]

Neat rifle :)

[@NookyAvenger]

The design looks really solid, I wonder what was the issues of this rifle. Is it true that one of the Holek brother designed the VZ58 prototype ?

[@kibicz]

+NookyAvenger vz.58 was designed by mr. Čermák. Holek bros. made different prototype for army competition.

[@DanielSvensson666]

Awesome.:D

[@GreyDevil]

Ian. If you could plan a trip to a country to look at some old guns which one would you go to first? Random question haha. Czechoslovakia seems to have a lot of cool stuff from big manufacturers and smaller groups, i think you could make a wealth of videos there. Though Germany would be really cool too. We need to get you and Karl traveling.

[@slowpokebr549]

Looks like a solid, easy to service rifle. As with the ZH 29, one wonders why they didn't do that well? Honestly this looks light years ahead of it's contemporaries.

[@jamesranger6283]

It is a crazy nice rifle. I can see why it sold for such a high price. I wonder why it was not adopted for military use?

[@rlbadger1698]

45K! WOW!

[@ronaldmcdonald6162]

It would be cool to see the wa2000

[@MrPelcat]

Please review the KS-23 shotgun if you ever get your hands on one and what is this firearm chambered in?

[@phileas007]

So Ian, You've mentioned that this rifle had some issues. Could you pls let us know just a bit of what was the main problem. Because other than cost, I can't tell what would prevent this rifle from being adopted (albeit with some simplifications, perhaps)

[@dimduk]

That bolt group looks like one out of an M240 machine gun. Very cool gun, seems to be well made I think they should have tried it out on the civilian market.

[@TheKilroyman]

Hey Ian, how often do you find these peculiar and rare weapons when "rummaging" through these auction collections?

[@VicariousReality7]

Looks rather clumsy but the mechanism is beautiful

[@AlbertShell]

the location is not Praza, "v Praze" means "in Prague". The A.S. marking stands for "akciová společnost" - "joint-stock company". The whole inscription reads "Czech Arms Factory, joint-stock company in Prague"

[@captainshays6191]

How about a video on the Spas-15.

[@ProfessionalNoodler]

Do you ever look at these prototype weapons and think of ways they would change certain components had they been accepted for mass-production?

[@emmetharte6434]

Ian there is a picture I spotted on Instagram with a dead Volkssturm soldier beside a gun that looks like a Breda modelo 30 but I doesn't look like the magazine is on it! Did they use modelo 30s in the volkssturm?

[@PlanetRibooted]

Excellent review, but the one thing I did not hear was the caliber. What caliber was this made in? I am a HUGE fan of all things Ceska Zbrojovka.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+PlanetRigo 8x57.

[@avinawy7574]

+Forgotten Weapons can you do some more cz stuff? Please

[@jackmcslay]

I'm puzzled by the protrusion on the back of the ejection port, it looks like a clip guide yet the magazine seems to be double stack so I don't see how you could just shove bullets from a clip into it. is there a precursor to this rifle that used a clip that they could have reused parts to make the prototype?

[@kevinoliver3083]

The Lee-Enfield rifle and Mauser C96 pistol both use double stack magazines and were usually loaded using chargers (stripper clips).

[@snaicli]

Looks like an combination between an SVT and SKS

[@bitfreakazoid]

That is a deep mag well. Doesn't look like you would be able to change mags very efficiently, unless it was designed more to use stripper clips..

[@DiggingForFacts]

+bitfreakazoid There's a pretty large stipper clip guide in the receiver, so it most likely was.

[@thomasloks]

It's obvious where Simonov got his designs.

[@FrisoHoltkamp]

Great video, as usual. I noticed you dry-fired the gun, which you normally take care to avoid. Is there something in the mechanics of this gun that makes it a nonissue?

[@a.lampman2165]

+Friso Holtkamp I think he usually only worries about dry-firing the really old/antique stuff, and especially anything that uses a rimfire cartridge (because if there's no cartridge, the firing pin slams against hardened metal). Something like that anyway. Would also be interested in knowing for sure too...

[@raylandraybels9462]

It's usually something to avoid if the firing pin is unsupported by a spring.

[@laxityazathoth1423]

Reminds me of a G43 I wonder how many of these rifles where taken into the German arms manufacturing industry and some of the ideas borrowed.

[@patricktakada9551]

Ian could you do a video on the SVT-38/40. I know they're not really forgotten, but a lot of people (inc. myself) don't know much about their history.

[@Nightwindale]

+Patrick Takada kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHivi2qDqZ2epqM

[@JohnE9999]

+Patrick Takada He has.

[@patricktakada9551]

oh, okay thanks

[@gregmcnee2477]

that Czech town Stakonice is pronounced - stra- ko-neets-se :-D

[@usslibertyincident]

Looks alot like the SKS (at least this model) does.

[@grc70]

Would this rifle have been loaded with stripper clips, or by magazine change? I thought I saw clip guides on top, and the magazine doesn't look like a good candidate for quick changing.

[@kevinoliver3083]

It would have the same five round chargers (stripper clips) as the Mauser rifles.

[@b.griffin317]

Clever design, but seems a bit complicated (ergo expensive). Question: In a relatively low rate of fire weapon like a semi-auto rifle (i.e. not a MG) why would a designer choose a tilting vs. rotating bolt design or vice-versa? Most modern rifles have rotating bolts but pistols (after the fashion of the 1911 and Glock I guess) are tilting bolt designs. The tiling bolt seems simpler/cheaper and perhaps more reliable (Glock vs. the AR's 8 itty-bitty locking lugs), so why aren't they more popular among rifles do you suppose? The idea seems to have been tried early in the semi-auto rifle's historical development but then almost completely abandoned after WWII. Your thoughts?

[@steril18]

The stamping "V PRAZE" means "In Prague" ie the capital of Czechoslovakia.

[@ChonbaeSun]

wow.

[@NINacide]

That bolt carrier assembly looks very expensive to manufacture.

[@kirkmooneyham]

I simply do not understand what was wrong with the rifle that it didn't get picked up as a service rifle. The design seems like genius for the day. Was there something that kept it from working well enough?

[@DatBoiUKno]

Do you think this rifle would be safe to shoot if someone purchased it? I know its probably not recommended but I'm only curious

[@DCM88]

Have you ever seen a Spanish FR-8?

[@nerome619]

Were there any sub-rifle calibers used prior to WW2 in a semi auto?

[@antoinegarcia5602]

+Neil Rosh The 1913/16 A6 Meunier semi automatic french rifle used a smaller caliber than the 8mm that was in service at the time in the french army (and it was built in relatively high numbers and used with good success in WW1). Can't remember the exact caliber though I do not know if it would count as a sub caliber rifle really.

[@smokeydops]

+Pvt. Garcia It was definitely not sub-caliber, being 7x57mm.

[@raylandraybels9462]

And the model 8 took the hammer design from the auto 5.

[@Crlarl]

It's spring _compression_ not tension. Tension is stretching, compression is squishing.

[@ToastytheG]

Hahaha

[@Crlarl]

ToastytheG It's a simplification, but isn't it true?

[@larskunoandersen282]

which bayonet would fix on this rifle

[@michaelexman5474]

Still long and very reminiscent of a Mauser in some ways

[@michaelexman5474]

yes essentally in its dimensions.

[@MroziuNS]

Vaclav... Ian, try to read it like "Vatslav" - that's pretty much how it suppose to sound.

[@wtwarrior7698]

Is there any full auto toggle action?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Several Swiss ones, like the MP41/44 and LMG25

[@WhiskeyRiverRifleman]

Estimated Price: $30,000 - $45,000 :-O

[@johnyricco1220]

So what was wrong with this design? This seems simpler and superior to the later CZ-38 from the same company. Did it make it to the 1937-38 trials?

[@novat9731]

I believe the recurring problem with early successful auto loading rifles was that countries were interested in the concept of arming it's military with semi-auto rifles, but were not interested in actually paying for it. So every time a gun manufacturer brought a high quality gun, the politicians who decided would complain about the price and convince themselves war was not on the horizon. In the first world war it was the other way around, gun manufacturers brought crappy guns (at least for trench warfare), and the army accepted them.

[@user-ns1cl8ir9l]

Oh, that's the missing link between ZB-26 and SVT

[@user-ns1cl8ir9l]

@@BloPsy__ firearm designs in different countries are often related: ZH-29 and StG44, FG-42 and M60, Garand and AK... Not 100% but some distinct feature. ZB-26, ZH-29 were known in USSR in early 30s. Considering timeline of Soviet selfloaders' designs I believe Czechs had influenced greatly.

[@mitchellbrenner2210]

anyone else thinks this looks like a svt or a sks? or if one had a baby?

[@anonhunter5191]

its C Zed, not C zee. the other letter is a capital too. The rest of the world uses both capital letter , I've noticed its only americans that make the Z a lower case.

[@ogastasii]

VaTSlav is the correct pronunciation.Also the PPSh is PPEsh with stable E not iii.Come on I don't know much of a foreign languages also. Neither about Nebraska lol.

[@artzilla3]

Hi all

[@sc7prim]

Excuse me, Ian, C in Vaclav is pronounced as "ts"