Dreyse M60 Needle Rifle (Updated)

This video has been updated from its original form to remove a reference to an erroneous claim that it did not effectively obturate, and was thus fired from the hip. For a great video showing live fire of the Dreyse, check out CapAndBall:
• Tactics and rifles of ...
Originally published May 27, 2015.
The Dreyse needle rifle (or zundnadelgewehr, which translates to needle firing rifle) was a major step forward in military rifle technology, although it did not remain at the forefront for very long (much like the Spencer repeating rifle in that regard). It used a paper cartridge with an integrated percussion cap primer, allowing the shooter to carry fully self-contained ammunition. It was a breech-loading bolt action, and the combination of these features gave it a much higher rate of fire than the muzzleloading rifles it replaced.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85704

[@polygondwanaland8390]

Updating a three year old video to remove a mistake is a pretty thorough and respectable thing to do. A lot of people would be too lazy.

[@davidmbeckmann]

It's sadly not very brave. It does not mention the error or the correction. He had said the Prussians fired this from the hip without aiming because of " gas blowback " . Now he still contends it's "not aimable. " Go to sites where people fire this from the shoulder and put down 90 mm groups at 100 meters. I don't know what Ian has against this gun, but it's his complete blind spot. Maybe he should shoot one?! Proves the gun Jesus is not infallible.

[@presidentlouis-napoleonbon8889]

@@davidmbeckmann Agreed. He later said that the gas blowby was forced to go forward (9:14). This is just entirely untrue. There are multiple people shooting this rifle actually aiming pinpoint. The hipfire was very common, not because the Dreyse was a dangerous gun, but because the Germans enjoyed using the Schnellfeuer (rapid fire) reaching the rate of fire more than 6 six shots a minute (a speed as fast as you can get while aiming properly).

[@ravenslaves]

The Dreyse was considered a terror weapon of its time. Cartoons depicted Dreyse himself as Death, leaving piles of dead bodies in his wake as he cut down scores of men with his needle rifle. Which is understandable if you're on the wrong end of one forming a square in the best Napoleonic fashion. Great video as always.

[@dak4465]

Ian your ability to openly admit when you may have made a mistake is impressive to me. Esspecially in this day and age

[@braedengriffiths4249]

Loved how you added in the second Schleswig war bit. Usually it’s overlooked, but some significant things came from that war. Highly recommend watching 1864. Good show about that war, couple misconceptions here and there but it’s a good view to say the least.

[@thomasbaagaard]

It is bad TVseries with a romance plot we have all seen 100 times before. The writing is bad and some of the structure make no sense. And it have so many ahistorical things that it would be a very long list going true them. (but we can start with the reason given for the war is wrong and the fact that they never mention the Austrians) When it come to the danish military things, the manual of arms is wrong, the orders are wrong, the formations are wrong, the tactics are wrong... But the uniforms and other gear is actually ok. But one thing they did do well is the photography and scenery. The series is beautiful... But why could they not have made a realistic series inspired by Band of brothers? The 2 hour movie version is somewhat better, having lost the whole modern part.

[@hedgehog3180]

Well there is that whole magic thing.

[@svenleurge2985]

On dreyse guns the first date, here "1861" indicates the date of manufacturing, while the second date "1862" was marked when the gun was handed over to military units. That's the reason why the "1862" marking has not such a perfect style than the factory made "1861". If a gun misses the second date it was never released to fighting units, but was kept in arsenals (in that case troop markings were also missing).

[@Salpeteroxid]

1864 is a fantastic series about the Second Holstein-Schlesvig war, it's so well made and period correcr I couldn't believe it. The scenery is jaw dropping.

[@thomasbaagaard]

It is bad TVseries with a romance plot we have all seen 100 times before. The writing is bad and some of the structure make no sense. And it have so many ahistorical things that it would be a very long list going true them. (but we can start with the reason given for the war is wrong and the fact that they never mention the Austrians) When it come to the danish military things, the manual of arms is wrong, the orders are wrong, the formations are wrong, the tactics are wrong... But the uniforms and other gear is actually ok. But one thing they did do well is the photography and scenery. The series is beautiful... But why could they not have made a realistic series inspired by Band of brothers? The 2 hour movie version is somewhat better, having lost the whole modern part. and is therefore less about modern politics.

[@liammeech3702]

​@thomasbaagaard haven't seen it, what is the politics?

[@Beefyrulz]

Not gonna lie, thought it fired needles. I'm slightly disappointed.

[@notforsaletoday1895]

Beefyrulz Same.... :'\

[@dak4465]

No its not a long range accupuncture device

[@agbond003]

Well the geometry of a spitzer bullet isn’t that far off from a needle. It’s just think of a family of needles, the bullet would probably be the dwarf cousin who poorly handles their anxiety and depression by eating and eventually becoming overweight...

[@AngelSamael]

Well seeing how the bullet is encased in papier-mache when fired then you could probably fire a needle instead of a bullet. You could fire several needles, probably with stabilizing fins.

[@baron8107]

Same!

[@lucignolo8333]

2 videos in less than 30 minutes, is this heaven? edit: lmao now 3 videos

[@DuringDark]

Dio Cane make that 3 ;-)

[@SNOUPS4]

These are updated videos, so you may expect to get even more if Ian decided today was updating day, for all the little corrections he thought of in the last months.

[@lucignolo8333]

every time i see one is like the first

[@YCCCm7]

No. This is hell. There will always be more forgotten weapons content than you can ever consume. No matter how hard you try, you'll never be caught up with modern Ian.

[@randynovick7972]

I never knew about needle rifles until today. Thank you for the info!

[@user-gj1np9rp4d]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbbeWSPerGcsLs

[@hamm6033]

Great video Ian! I think the best presentation you have ever made. Enough information to peak the curiosity. Excellent explanation of the mechanism and ammunition. I will be reading the rest of the night and have a book or two to buy. Thanks again.

[@hpbear101]

Great video Ian. After several months of frustration (some of it self induced) I finally have my 1866 Chassepot needle rifle and ammo working as it should. A Dreyse would make a good companion.

[@aserta]

I you get your chance happens upon another, remake the video, emphasizing on your fix here. It's important to put this kind of situation where it should be. Wikipedia is filled with such problems, and the fact that they can't be solved in some situations because of erroneous (and arrogance on some people's part) thinking and information is wrong. Kudos on to you for pointing this one out.

[@WeDontTalkAboutJosh]

You mean like how they refuse to refer to the M36 Gun Motor Carriage as the Jackson even after the official memo naming it Jackson was presented to them?

[@SNOUPS4]

Speaking of which, I just updated the Wikipedia article about the AK-47 so that it at least mentions once the lesser known, albeit official russian name "AK-49". WIkipedia can only get better if people help it...

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Please don't; the AK49 name is the single biggest thing I removed. That came form a US Army report in the 60s which was mistaken, and has been erroneously repeated in several major sources to this day.

[@WeDontTalkAboutJosh]

I know not to trust Wikipedia, I was just pointing out a known flaw in their information to illustrate aserta's point. And as if to back it up, the wikipedia page on the AK once again refers to the type-2s as AK49s...

[@Jasruler]

We don't talk about Josh. Please get in touch with me with a decent source to demonstrate the misinformation, I’ll get the change pushed through.

[@VICTORYOVERNEPTUNE]

Awesome video as always Ian.

[@piatpotatopeon8305]

Thanks for fixing the error! I've watched the video by CapandBall, and it always drove me up a wall that you accidentally had inaccurate information in one of your videos! Conflicting information from two of my most respected subscriptions! Who could bear it!?

[@scottsossaman2725]

I just acquired my own and learned through this video that mine has an intact needle.

[@kaiservon2936]

where did you find one??

[@rasmuswellejus2809]

You have the best job in the world, Ian

[@elgrandosmokionumbanine3021]

So while the US was using muskets for at least 20 more years a country that's gone already had bolt action rifles.

[@SuperAWaC]

well that was more of a military adoption issue rather than a technological one

[@williamsager805]

America felt secure the Atlantic Ocean was enough to prevent foreign governments from invading. AS such most weapon developments tended to be aimed at the civilian market .

[@elgrandosmokionumbanine3021]

William Sager ah that explains it, also explains why Winchesters were being used right next to muskets in the American civil war

[@thomasbaagaard]

They where used in very, very small numbers. And they where acquired by the soldiers themself and not issued by the federal government.

[@CruelestChris]

You know there were lever-action rifles in the seventeenth century, right? Look up "Kalthoff Repeater."

[@CodyCEngdahl]

Great work. I need this for the novel I'm currently working on. This was exactly what I needed. Thanks!

[@jackbootsman5672]

Thanks for that Ian. First of the needle gun a couple years ago by reading a book "Tough trip through Paradise". That was about a trader in Montana, just after the Little Big Horn battle. Apparently the natives wanted the needle guns over the Henry's for buffalo hunting.

[@TenOrbital]

It was a pretty old rifle in 1866, I think it was first issued in 1839. There’s really no excuse for the Austrians to have been caught off guard by it, they had plenty of time to react (Austro-Prussian inter-German rivalry was intense particularly in the 1848-50 period, they came to the brink of war in 1850) and they fought alongside it in the second Danish war. Not to mention they had observers on both sides of the ACW. But most of Franz-Josef’s military decisions were disastrous and waving away the Dreyse was one of them.

[@kaiservon2936]

Actually any european power would have been caught off guard by it in 1866, it wasn't until after the Austro Prussian War that France and Britain started trying to equip the entire army with breech loading rifles

[@sovietstalin2277]

Love your channel

[@roadkill2554]

He's spoiling us

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Also mandatory Chessepot commentary: the French still LOST that war. TWICE.

[@paolomoraschinelli7643]

Twice?

[@AFollowerOfJesusChrist]

I've never heard of a needle gun thats actually really cool

[@user-gj1np9rp4d]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbbeWSPerGcsLs

[@terryplew3333]

It was built quite intricately detailed for tge mid 19th century.

[@dreamingflurry2729]

We (I am a German) had Krupp Artillery, so the rifles weren't needed (we still won against those French back then!) :)

[@mre.w.2850]

The second date could be from a re count at the specific barracks of use, a lot of militaries re steered and revised the existing rifles from old in service to reproof them

[@imperialgermanbayonets9244]

The second date was the year that this rifle was issued to the troops. The specific regiment is marked on the tang of the butt plate.

[@okaro6595]

Actually the production started in 1841 but it was not adopted. It was secretly manufactured and stocked in warehouses with the plan to adopt it in use when they had fully armed the army. In 1848 during the mad year of Europe some of the warehouses were broken into and the secret was out so it was adopted. This is my understanding of the German source but then I almost flunked German in school. 1200? Is that paces i.e. about 850 m.

[@romar1581]

Yes, the sight is marked in paces. 1 prussian mile (pre 1872) measures 7532 meters and has 10.000 paces. Yes during the 1848 revolution the Berlin arsenal was looted. Afterwards there was a 'buy back' action. Nevertheless 14 (16?) rifles did not make it back, of which some might have made it into other nation's hands, thus revealing the secret.

[@thomasbaagaard]

@@romar1581 It was no secret. The danish army tested it in 1840. One was captured in 1848 from the Sleswig-Holstein rebels by the "danish" government army. And it was again tested a number of times in the 1850ties. There where plenty of good reasons for why other armies did not buy it. One was the bolt. It was for its time, a highly complex item that was unlike anything most farmboys would ever had used. There where issues with durability and reliability. All the issues can be dealt with with proper training, but that cost money. The Prussian army had the advantage of having every man for 3 years in uniform.(in the case of line infantry) A dane in comparison would only serve for 18month, and during winter they where sent home to save money. So the actual time for training was much more limited. And then there was the simply issue of cost. Prussia was willing to spend more money of its military than most of the European states. Obviously history showed that the Prussians did the right hing... But not all new weapon systems are a success and sometimes it is the right decision to let others wast their money on the newest stuff.

[@kargaist]

Very interresting Video. I'vee seen these weapons in museums but there was no explanation other than the name and date of manufacture.

[@balazstorok9265]

What a Sunday!

[@bobo12055]

Paper Cartridges has a good video of this gun.

[@RandyLeftHandy]

I finally understand why the Chassepot was such a superior rifle.

[@Cavelson]

always amazing guns engeneering

[@kazimierzburzynski2538]

Karabin na owe czasy był rewolucyjny. Iglicę w boju praktycznie należało wymieniać co 10 strzałów. W służbie był dosyć krótko.

[@isaiahbraddock]

I thank you this is very informative. Can you do a video on different kinds of grips and stocks and their evolution?

[@SStupendous]

Guess not Imao

[@isaiahbraddock]

@@SStupendous shame

[@filipeamaral216]

In 1850 the Brazilian Empire decided to hire German mercenaries to serve in the southern frontier, facing the dictator Rosas and his smaller ally, Oribe. The Germans would be known as Brummers and would be training in Prussian style with Dreyse needle rifles. Of this Germans Legion composed of infantry, artillery and sappers, a small 100-men unit, armed with Dreyse rifles, took part in the Battle of Monte Caseros (1852) as snipers against Rosas artillerymen, keeping them from manning their guns. It was the first major battle for the Dreyse needle rifle.

[@MrGarwest]

Hello Ian,Great to see an update on the Dreyse Fusilier M/60 Beck converted rifle.The misconception that has been written regarding breech obturation of the mating cones leaking into the shooter's has been repeated so many times it has become a factoid.The breech does leak slightly as it is a metal to metal seal but does not blow back into the shooter's face. We have been evaluating the military issue Dreyse system for thirty years without gas leaking back. As for needles, as long as they are handled correctly do not break with monotonous regularity as claimed by some writers who have never fired a Dreyse.The Beck conversion (shown in your video) effectively sealed the breech, thus increased velocity with that range which allowed for a more sophisticated rear sight arrangement altered from paces to metres. If you want to see the different models of the Dreyse system, plus Chassepot being evaluated with and without their respective bayonets fixed, with facsimile cartridges take a look on KZbin - 'Shooting Dreyse' by G and L A-R-West.With best wishes to your ever expanding video channel.Guy and Leonard A-R-West

[@thebotrchap]

Oh Ian, didn’t you spot it is a modified Beck rifle? The conversions similar to the Chassepot bolt and involves a sliding breech face insert with a leather disc behind it. The insert is pressed inward under pressure which causes the leather disc to expand radially and seal around the barrel rim. The increased chamber pressure meant increased range, hence a new adjustable sight leaf. The conversions were done after the 70/71 war.... And don’t believe the myth of soldiers not aiming properly due to gas leakage ;-)

[@imperialgermanbayonets9244]

Very well spotted. It is worth mentioning that the Beck modification already started before the franco-prussian war but the outbreak of the war interrupted the modifications and since the prussian army wanted to maintain uniform armament the already modified rifles were sent back and stored until the war ended. The Number of guns converted to Beck before the franco-prussian war was very small but it shows that the Beck conversion was not a quick reaction to the "superior" french Mle 1866 but a long planed step to upgrade the dreyse system.

[@thebotrchap]

Imperial German Bayonets iirc Wirtger’s Dreyse book states that Beck’s efforts were spurred directly in response to Chassepot’s breech design. It was indeed not a knee-jerk reaction though since he also designed better ammunition so it was a well thought out integrated package of improvement, which as you correctly state, took time to implement. However, having reloaded for and shot original style cartridges both for an original unaltered M/62 rifle and an Mle1866 can tell you for sure the Chassepot is/was “superior”. I’m still looking for a nice Beck altered Dreyse rifle to play with....

[@imperialgermanbayonets9244]

Yes, the book from R. Wirtger is indeed the best source for everything dreyse related. I only used quotation marks for the word superior because i have the feeling that very often the Chassepot is seen as this godlike weapon when compared to the dreyse system. That being said i will of course acknowledge that the Mle 1866 was the better rifle. I dont shoot the dreyse rifles in my collection but i had the chance to shoot a chassepot and a beck modified M/1860 belonging to a friend of mine and found both very enjoyable although we had some problems with the cartridges for the Mle 1866. Sometimes they would just get squished and wouldn't fire but this may be a mistake caused by wrong manufacturing.

[@rudynorvelle2870]

Ah, you beat me to it. I also noticed the Beck conversion. I have a Jaeger M65 that has the Beck conversion.

[@thebotrchap]

Rudy Norvelle That would be my dream version!

[@grayhantzell1957]

Son : mom can we get M60 at home? Mom : no we had M60 at home M60 at home :

[@AftermathRV]

and after 1871, soon thereafter , we had the lebel 1886 and the first machine guns yep the victorian times basically can be summarized as "things are great today, might be outdated tomorrow though." especially ships, am i right royal navy.

[@ragimundvonwallat8961]

royal navy, outdated? :laugh in gloire

[@williamsager805]

So if you had a couple of misfires you could change the needle without removing the paper cartridge.

[@jnathannger8654]

"had a negative effect on the guns avcuracy" out of curiosity, was it really negative compared to smooth bore or even a rifle with round ball?

[@onsesejoo2605]

Have you done a video on Lefacheux (sp ?) guns ?

[@ThePerfectRed]

Alternate history: The bolt action was really only superior to all the other mechanisms after the box magazine was invented. How would firearms have developed without Dreyse?

[@IntroSpectre6x3]

Got to admit, I was a bit excited to see some more deep dives into needle rifles. Guess not. =|

[@johnfisk811]

Trivial but sabot is pronounced 'sabb-oh' not 'say-bo'. Well done to update and correct errors. I believe that the sabot was rolled paper strip rather than moulded papier mache ('pappy-eh mash-eh'). Who got them when they were sold off obsolete?

[@josephsatricleofevillanuev3194]

After watching this video several times, I still don't understand how you "cock" the cocking piece. Does the flat spring keep tension on the inner sleeve while you push it forward? Someone please explain.

[@baronschefz5483]

Do you can make blueprints of this gun?

[@ARK-wh8so]

My dad has one of those. We would love to shoot it, but just not sure how...

[@cliffordc9497]

Damn. That's a lot of fiddly bits to fire 1 shot.

[@SStupendous]

Isn't that true for most guns that aren't full auto? Or need manual action before another shot can be made?

[@betaich]

Hm am I stupid, or was there no real update within the video and just in the description?

[@thegooddoctor2009]

betaich It only says a reference was removed, I imagine they just cut the portion out.

[@betaich]

Hm, hard to check as Ian has removed the old version. Also I am nearly sure it is still in, but could have misheard.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Several small but important edits to the video.

[@betaich]

Thanks Ian.

[@lisdawatiginanjar1490]

Ada tidak buku pedoman pembuatan senjata M16, Apakah kita bisa mendapatkannya

[@Betterhose]

This was the gun that allowed Prussia to win the wars against Denmark, Austria and France in order to unite all the german states to a nation. It was the technical superiority of this gun at its time that led to those victories. Without it, it is likely there would have never been a german nation and thus an entirely other outcome of history.

[@wastedangelematis]

The real question was... Dry or soar throat ?

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

But wouldn't "replace a central part of your firing mechanism every couple of hundred rounds" still be a VAST improvement over previous systems like flintlocks? I believe those maybe held fo a "couple of dozen" shots before they had to be replaced with carefully shaped new ones to still cause the right amount of sparks... Wheellocks too. and with //cap and ball// you needed to handle a "spare part" with every single shot too... (the new percussion cap) ... So you have breechloader, single cartridge (even though it's not yet metal cartridge) and a pretty long time between "maintenance"... you probably would have to clean it three, four times between new needles, so not sure what the big downside is?

[@steinmetz3336]

There is not a single video on the internet about the dreyse needle shotgun. I own one of these (serial nr.99) but its in rather bad condition.

[@Hugh_Mungus]

Any idea what they used as primer for the paper bullets?

[@CodyCEngdahl]

You say the notch and post sight can be adjusted to 1,200. 1,200 what? Feet? Meters?

[@packlesswolf1]

Your thumbnail is messed up. Shows you holding the parts to the gun not the gun itself

[@andreweisen99]

So many lugers behind Ian

[@DonHaussettler]

Andrew Eisen Arisakas? /s

[@LordEvan5]

Man if I only had money

[@BSKustomz]

LordEvan5 what I say every time he talks about something Swiss

[@genericpersonx333]

TO be fair, the gun does not obturate well and throws a heck of a puff of gas out the breech, so badly that it actually inhibits projectile performance due to loss of energy. The myth is that the gas is thrown in the face and causes special problems for it, which is silly because the gas is vented forward by design and the puff is hardly any worse than what you get from an flash in a flintlock or a percussion cap's detonation.

[@eVVigilance]

Eustace Stritchers Except that THIS one went through the Beck conversion, which adds a Chassepot inspired rubber obdurator, for 100% gas seal. Page 197 of Das Zundnadelgewehr has an excellent picture and diagram highlighting the differences. So unfortunately, that statement, and the video remain inaccurate.

[@genericpersonx333]

Wow. You, Sir, need some other means of self-validation.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I have learned a lot in the years since I filmed this particular video, and will eventually be replacing it with better ones of different patterns of Dreyse. The gas leakage misconception was too glaring to leave any longer, though. The video may not be perfect, but it's better now (and which I can edit out things fairly easily, it's much more difficult to edit in new information).

[@genericpersonx333]

As intended by my first post, the misconception is easy to make. There is a heck of a blast from the breech of an ordinary Dreyse design which feeds the idea that the gun is a monster despite its 1840s origins when percussion caps and flint-locks equally or even-more blinding. Prussia really was ahead of its time and I am bemused that it too so long for Breech-loaders to catch on consider the Dreyse was an 1840s-design.

[@eVVigilance]

Forgotten Weapons Thanks for improving it Ian. It would be awesome if sometime you were able to spend time with the West brothers and their mind boggling collection. Do a full Dreyse series like you did on the Bergmanns.

[@blucz883]

we have at home dreyse 41 and its better than 60.

[@okin_rezresua1715]

Ja!

[@justinthebeau2590]

The dreyse needle fire rifle was a revolutionary weapon for its time even though it had its flaws it changed the frontlines forever

[@DrGordonFreeman]

Is it Danzio od Danzig ? 0:53

[@romar1581]

Danzig, today's Gdansk in West Prussia.

[@emiliusemilius4260]

Hello Ian! I have a question: have you heard about a forward-bolt action rifle, with the bolt on the barel and a fixed block ? I think that would be good for a compact bullpup rifle, with the and of the barel near the and of the stock.

[@cnlbenmc]

Imagine if this was used by the Union Army in the American Civil War.

[@Easy-Eight]

I had wondered about the original video. Germans (Prussians) don't make junk. The Chassepot merely outranged the Dreyse and any attacks using the 19th Century tactics tended to be expensive in manpower: you're basically running unsupported into the face of the enemy. Ergo, the Chassepot was not a "super" rifle, it was just a very good rifle against a "fair" Dreyse. That said I'd love to own a Chassepot or a Dreyse. Of course the short comings of the Dreyse was more than made made up by excellent Krupp Artillery and the superlative Prussian Command structure.

[@plaidjunky]

Was I the only one who clicked on this thinking it was a "zip gun"?

[@hafthohlladung1208]

50

[@PabloB-KMP]

42

[@benjaminabrams5000]

teglade1945 the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything

[@ryc3rz]

Danzig! Ha! I have a house in Gdańsk, which is the same city, but now in Poland :)

[@OldSmokey1953]

Here's me shooting my ZG 62 - Made in Danzig: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mqrGn6ytmbJ8qK8

[@JonathanChappell]

Prussian Nesting Bolts

[@kyonkochan]

Prussia 1841: WE NEED NEEDLES IN OUR GUNS! Germany 1941: WE NEED NEEDLES IN OUR SOLDIERS! (referring to the fascination of the Third Reich with medically assisted combat, up to and including giving out meth to tank troops during the invasion of Poland)

[@redenginner]

The us army also worked on putting needles into soldiers in the early 2000s. I believe it was called the metabolic dominance program.

[@discostuchannel]

yoooooo

[@DistractiveVortex]

This is the most inpractical action I've seen so far. I'd rather even use a flint lock... But cool to see it anyway

[@ISemiI]

The guys using percussion locks got destroyed by guys with these, though. Koniggratz, for example.

[@DistractiveVortex]

Semi Hm, I looked that up and read it too, indeed. These guns were simply superior to others during that time. I guess if one gets used to the action, it handles fine.

[@user-gj1np9rp4d]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbbeWSPerGcsLs