D2, it's not as good as you think and why some other steels are better than you are led to believe

This video is about D2 and why it's not as good as tou think it is. I'll also cover steels I've seen widely talked about as being not very good and how they compete to D2. Here ate the results of the knives I compare in this video.
All number represent feet cut
D2 knives
CRKT Pilar D2. 61 fine 82 working
Cut Jack D2. 76 fine. 90 working
Intrigue D2. 69 fine 90 working
Cut Jack mini. 70 fine 93 working
Civivi Statera. 80 fine. 100 working
Two Sun TS 72 94 fine 104 working
Ganzo FH51. 98 fine. 113 working
Civivi Wyvern. 94 fine. 109 working
Copper Natrix. 94 fine. 109 working
Ganzo FH31. 93 fine. 135 working
Rat 1 CF D2. 114 fine. 161 working
Rat 1 D2 green 49 fine. 83 working
Other steels compared in the video
Kershaw 8cr13 25 fine 83 working
Spyderco 8cr13 45 fine 88 working
Tangram Acuto 440. 78 fine 95 working
Ganzo 440C. 81 fine 101 working
Cold Steel 4116 78 fine. 111 working
Byrd CTS-BD1. 94 fine. 119 working
Spyderco VG-10 71 fine 162 working
Kizer VG-10. 72 fine 166 working
Boker VG-10. 71 fine. 162 working
Cold Steel Aus-8 130 fine 189 working
Cold Steel Aus-8 122 fine 182 working
Rat 1 Aus-8. 128 fine. 189 working
All these results can be found within this video or past videos posted here to the channel.
Edge retention testing data sheets
docs.google.co...
Contact me at [e-mail]
Follow me on Instagram at Outpost76
As always I appreciate your time and thanks for watching.

[@Outpost_76]

The Google spreadsheet is also up to date with edge retention and Rockwell testing results. Many different brands and steels for everyone to see.

[@My_Name_Is_David]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpCueYarrNdorLs , here is someone smarter and more entertaining than you. You are wrong.

[@skylerbond56]

Strange maybe it's a bad batch? If not I'd rather just pay $10-20 more for 14c28n.

[@jgunther3398]

the spreadsheet isn't generally accessible. "The organization that owns this item doesn't allow you to access it."

[@AM-is8ve]

Same result as the above comment. The spreadsheet is not available. Would you please update permission?

[@FriedPi-mc5yt]

D2 is a really good steel when it’s heat treated properly. The problem is, D2 heat treating in a high production facility results in knife blades that are randomly good and bad. D2 is not a good steel for high production. It should be reserved for custom knives where heating and quenching can be more controlled. AUS-8 in general is a great steel for mass production. It’s more forgiving in heat treating and quenching. When done right, it can compete with “higher end” knife steels without a problem. I’m not sure how AUS-8 got to the point where people think it isn’t a good steel. At one time, AUS-8 was considered a “super steel” that was only surpassed by ATS-34. People need to realize that there is nothing wrong with AUS-8. It’s a good steel that has been proven over a long period of time. It’s a great steel for use in any production knife. AUS-8 doesn’t mean “cheap”. It means it’s a working steel that will do good duty for daily needs.

[@bryanstone654]

Thank you for this explanation!

[@rockets4kids]

@@bryanstone654 Except that it is completely wrong. All of the D2 knives tested by Gerald had *consistently* poor results.

[@greekveteran2715]

It's still a bad cutter. The large carbides and the toothy edge, makes it a really bad cutter especially on push cuts. In this video the blade of the knife is saber grind and that's one of the most meatier blades you can get, that's why he doesn't complain about chiping. If the same steel would be on a scandi edge knife, it would chip if it was used on wood or bones (hunting knife duties) Sorry for my not so perfect English, That's my personal experience with D2, a steel that's only good on keeping it's a edge. Unfortunately, it's not good at anything else, even when it comes to sharpening, I've seen steels, that take less time and hold their edges way longer (ballbearing steel is a good example)

[@andrewfournier8817]

Andrew Demko suggested in a Cold Steel video that many other makers had used something more like AUS6 and called it AUS8

[@jimyocum9556]

D2 sucks with any heat treat its not a good blade steel period

[@mcr0741]

I have fallen victim to this first hand. I got the Rat 2 in D2 following all the hype, and didn't even like it over my Rat 2 in aus8. I didn't know what was wrong so I came here looking for it on the internet. Now I get it.

[@anthonywaldrep5982]

Extremely informative video that is backed by edge retention testing using the scientific method. Most people claiming that D2 is a better steel than AUS8 or 8CR13MOV are just not using their knives nor are they sharpening them. There's way too much elitism going on in the knife community from people who are closed minded and refuse to accept factual evidence that refutes what they state.

[@kknives_switzerland]

Well said Sir

[@Outpost_76]

Thank you and I completely agree.

[@anthonywaldrep5982]

@@Outpost_76 Even if midtech and custom knife makers heat treat D2 properly, there are still far better blade steels they could be using for the price that they are charging.

[@ScentitarFragrance]

I hate 8cr and will not us a knife that has it. I sold or got rid of my kershaws with that steel. I got very poor performamce from it and it wouldn't polish enough for my liking.

[@anthonywaldrep5982]

@@ScentitarFragrance As far as polish goes, I've never had a problem with 8CR13MOV. I use a pretty tight grit progression and it's one of the easiest stainless steels I've ever polished. There will always be lemons when you have mass produced blades. I've had good luck with 8CR13MOV from Spyderco, CRKT and Kershaw.

[@EDCandLace]

4116 for edc is more then most of us need. People talk mad crap about 4116 but if it's done half decent then it preforms just fine.

[@flipflat4814]

Help please, Cedric did the Rat1 AUS 8 vs Rat1 D2 and the D2 did 50% more rope cutting than the AUS 8 I'm confused which Rat blade steel has better edge retention?

[@scullkrusher]

I just came across your channel and I found this video interesting because I've noticed my D2 budget knives being kinda underwhelming when compared to other budget steels. I recall in an interview with Andrew Demko (sorry I can't remember the original poster) that the reason why Cold Steel stuck with AUS-8 and now AUS-10 for so long is because they got legit great performance out of it. He explained it has to do with the Japanese and Taiwanese steel manufacturers have high industry standards. And that even though on paper 8cr13mov should perform the same as AUS-8 the Chinese tend to have lower or more sporadic tolerances. And while other alloys were superior to AUS-8 there was the diminishing returns with cost vs. performance but the customers kept asking them to switch away from AUS-8 to more popular "super steels". Yet now they've got back full circle also with AUS-10. I can see that. Even Spyderco Taiwan factory is in someways better than their Colorado factory. And their Chinese produced knives are no where near on par.

[@poncho151]

KZbin auto played this for whatever reason and I rewatched it. What I find funny is how 3+ years later, all the same “influencers” in the community who were pushing brands/manufacturers to put D2 on everything now are complaining about D2. I would love to see someone put together a compilation of every time they praised and requested D2 paired with each time they now complain about D2. It’s kind of unfortunate how much influence some of them have because some of them push trends that aren’t beneficial to the community and then they just parrot each other and things get out of hand like in the case with D2. Now D2 can be a fine steel and I’ve got a couple LT Wright knives in D2 that are excellent but as you said it’s not for mass production. Hope all is well!

[@kittrainbow7]

Love D2, sharps very easily and it takes an extremely keen edge, ultrapolished, splitting apex. Way better then some "super steels" with excessive amount of chrome (over 14%). I buy both carbon tool enriched (vanadium, tungsten... Sleipner example), semi stainless (D2) and fully stainless steels (VG10, S35VN, Aus10a, 10cr...). Older steels without vanadium or carbide formers are preatty much obsolete but I still have to understand when there are too much carbide formers... searching for the perfect ultra keen splitting edge. A steel has to have the right amounts of elements, not too much, not too low. Then every customer has its own priorities, (keen edge, edge retention, toughness, corrosion...), for me it is: first ultra keen polished edge and then second medium edge retention, third corrosion resistance. I can vary depending on knife, environment and application. So one steel cannot make everyone happy. 🇮🇹

[@wis1024]

Some people are catching on. I mean even nutnfancy says he prefers 8cr to d2. My guess is d2 won't be super popular very long and I think the production d2 was able to ride the custom d2 coat tail for a really long time.

[@holybotulism313]

Just when I thought CRKT was coming up in the world by using D2. Surprised at how well AUS8 did. I guess I'm guilty of groupthink.

[@SpartanJohns]

I like D2! I have not had any issues with it. I like the fact that people do cut tests! My cut tests are different than others. I try to look things from the perspective of "the average user" if there is such a thing. So while I sometimes do cardboard or rope cut tests i am more interested in the effort it takes to get the edge back than how much it cut. TBH i do not think that there are "bad steels". Bad HT...yes. As you said: VG10 is a great example! Gets a lot of hate simply because people just repeat what they hear others say. Hearing what you said about AUS8....makes me wonder. I have my old RAT1(2009 model I think) which is very soft. That one I tested and I know how it behaves. But now I am curious... Nice video! I enjoyed it!

[@RJ-vb7gh]

I have a Rat 1 from the second batch... and it has performed pretty much as expected of D2... Although I carried it for about a year it's still on it's factory edge. I stropped it once or twice, but I never really used it for any real hard or endurance cutting. I pulled it out of rotation because it was just too high maintenance. If you cut spicy food with it, it pretty much instantly stains and it gets tiny pits just from pocket carry in bad weather. Even when the edge is excellent, it's just not worth the maintenance required to keep it. I spoke to the Ontairo folks back when I bought my Rat 1 and they were only doing it as a custom order at the time. They weren't in love with it and they were pretty much against doing it in large production runs at the time. On a further note, I have a block of D2 laying around in my basement for about 40 years now... it has tarnished but hasn't in any way rusted... It's left over from when my dad was a tool maker. That was US made D2, and I pretty much use it to hammer on... Likely unhardened it's pretty tough stuff and doesn't deform easily. It was a very good die steel for use in hydraulic presses, which is what my dad used it for. The Rat 1 Cedric tested was also from an early batch and it performed very well... None of those early batches were coated blades.. I assumed that the coating would screw up the heat treat in as much as D2 heat treats at a pretty low temp. (one of the reasons tool makers liked it) But to be entirely honest... I think Ontario knew what they were getting into from the get go. They seemed very apprehensive about the whole D2 project from the get go. I also tend to believe that once they made the decision to go into full scale production, the bean counters sourced cheaper steel, most likely from China. D2 isn't a patented steel, anyone can make it. So where a few pennies more on a couple thousand blades didn't make any difference, once they got into mass production, I can see where pennies began to matter. AUS-8 only comes from one manufacturer, it's always going to be consistent. You just can't cheapen AUS 8.but D2 is a whole 'nother story. Long story short... I don't really buy that the folks that make D2 don't know how to heat treat it... it's an easy steel to heat treat correctly compared with many of the modern super steels... but it's also a steel that can come from lots of different sources and have wide variations in quality. I might add that it's actually a pretty inexpensive steel in bulk, and it's easy to work with, so there's big profit to be made by buying cheap and selling high, without false advertising. So in understanding how bean counters work and with the abundance of cheap, low quality D2 out there, combined with the high maintenance level of D2, I tend to agree... it's a steel best avoided. There are lots of better steels out there.

[@skylerbond56]

Strange heat treat must make a difference. I carried a Kershaw Cqc-6k in D2 while roofing all last summer, and never had rust issues. I got a couple specks that just wiped away with my shirt easily enough. Holds an edge better than the same knife in 8cr14mov.

[@RJ-vb7gh]

@@skylerbond56 Moreso... D2 isn't a branded steel and there are variations based in who's making it, especially in what Chinese D2 steel contains. I've got a block of old die steel that's tarnished, but not rusted and a block of old tool steel that's rusted but not pitted that have both been lying in my basement for about 45 years... Why some die steels pit and rust easily while others don't is a mystery. As to knives, the better the tool steel holds an edge the more likely it seems to be to rusting, and that might be due to how it's heat treated, but more likely how much carbon to chrome it has in the alloy.

[@skylerbond56]

@@RJ-vb7gh True, I was just saying mine holds it as well as a CPM D2 but takes a bit more work to sharpen.

[@skylerbond56]

@@RJ-vb7gh I was just stating Kershaw's Chinese distributor must be a more reliable one.

[@RJ-vb7gh]

@@skylerbond56 Actually, in the practical knife category, I've come to prefer S35VN. It's tough, stainless and keeps a good edge and it's around the same price as D2 if you don't mind a knife made in China.

[@tristandauod]

Definitely would not have thought their own Aus8 would outperform their D2🤔😂

[@ckduke1]

Amazing video sir. I have super steel in most of my knives, and I use them 3 times a week to open amazon packages.... I could trade my whole collection for a spyderco tenacious and be much richer. Thank you for all the hard work you put into your channel.

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome and thank you for watching.

[@robc8468]

I just ordered a Rat 2 and a Rat 1 both in Aus-8 each cost less than $25 each with free shipping on the Amazon Ontario store. I guess nobody wants AUS 8 anymore but I will take them.......

[@jslaughterofthesoul4939]

Curious about Boker Plus's Euro released D2, had some good experience. 9cr14/9cr18 can blow expectations. Would like to see Brous and Brous Import lines stand with their D2. Hought some random DC53 blades that have impressed me in a good way, but uncommon. Where would you place 13c VS 12/14?

[@DeadRingerMachine]

First of all, I don't know of anyone who has claimed that D2 is a "great" steel. Universally, it's a steel people settle for, because everyone would rather have a super steel of course. But for people who dopn't want to spend $150+ on every single knife they buy, then stuff like D2 comes into play. And if you have "no idea" why companies have gone with D2, it's about hardness and edge retention. That's why. Getting up close to 60Rc while staying in the $30-$40 price range is why. And there was a time when there just weren't a ton of options, and people were using D2 and having solid results. HAVING SOLID RESULTS, regardless of what your testing tells you. I think now they're starting to use some better steels in that same price range like 14c28n, and some makers can get n690 down into that price range, and CJRB has a really good proprietary steel they call AR-RPM9 that I have in 3 knives now and it's really good stuff. So companies are creating alternatives because, AGAIN, NOBODY ever said D2 was "great." But the FACT is that the days of soft crap like the AUS steels and 440 are gone. People want 58Rc and above, and for good reason. You're the first person I've ever heard complain about a Rat 1 rolling or chipping. EVER. I would say they're 95%+ praised. And I've been searching reviews for a while now. So I'd say someone just got hold of a bad Rat, which happens sometimes.

[@OLMmedic]

Oh by the way vg10 is great stuff. My preferred steels are things that strop back as you said. Crkt’s aus8 and spyderco’s bd1 and vg 10 are great for this. Especially the vg 10. Its so under rated and people said its like soup can metal. Crazy cause its fantastic for my needs.

[@jimmycricket7946]

Bd1 and even bd1n in my opinion suck. I can't stand the stuff at all and I don't think I'm alone on this. I found it to be chippy, unmanageable and the edge retention is disgraceful. I'm actually pretty surprised gerald likes it because usually I tend to agree with him on just about everything. I do agree with you on the VG10 though. I can work with spydercos VG10 just not there bd1n.

[@cp1532]

Great video Gerald. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around the performance of AUS8. Aside from being optimized for mass production heat treating, I think it might just have an ideal ratio of carbon to chromium. I saw BBB saying something similar about AEB-L recently. It's crazy that adjusting the carbon by a tenth and the chromium by a percent, one way or the other, can have such a huge impact, but that appears to be the case... the way those 2 elements interact and bond, depending on the specific quantities of each... fascinating stuff.

[@chrisjaskulski8613]

Please forgive my ignorance, but is fine vs working edge a difference between bevel angles or grit to which they are shaprpened/polished?

[@Outpost_76]

Fine edge is when it strops shaving arm hair and working edge is when it stops clean slicking paper against the grain. This is what most of us that test use. I have a video coming up that will go over this.

[@chrisjaskulski8613]

@@Outpost_76 thank you for the clarification!

[@BrandonGavin_EDC]

Also Ganzo does amazing with their 440. Most of their knives are pretty good especially for the money.

[@krustysurfer]

❤my ganzo

[@BrandonGavin_EDC]

Do you have any videos on CPM D2? I’m curious how the new Kershaw dividend in N690/CPMD2 preforms.

[@jeffreyfinney6930]

I have to go with my personal experience of working in a warehouse for 24years. I have to cut through plastic banding straps of verying thickness and strength to plactic wrap cardboard breaking down boxes cutting tyne slicing open shipping air bags with polyurethane outer weaved shell. I sometimes have to cut electric wires of ac units we have to scrap. I have used just about all the steels you have except aus10. My primary user is my esee zancudo in D2 it has held a better edge than anything I use when you cut through a variety of materials at a blade you find out what it will really do.

[@bobsmoot2392]

Excellent presentation, sir. I've been wondering about the D2 cult like following, and apparent hype. I live in humid/salty SW Florida, and was just about to order a smallish edc and fishing knife. Your research has convinced me to avoid rustable D2 and stick with the better SS blade. Thanks for that. Subscribed. BTW... We have a Cold Steel Roach Belly in our kitchen that we use daily. The 4116 is excellent with zero stains.

[@Outpost_76]

I still use my Roach Belly for food prep. For fishing I'd definitely use a stainless. I just moved from central Florida and D2 was the one steel that moisture for even a short time would rust. During my move I used the AD-20.5 in D2 for a few hours and it rusted just from a few hours of moisture in my pocket and that was cleaning it off each time I used it. I'll be doing a video about corrosion resistance on steels soon.

[@earlscheib7754]

I feel even better about my RAT 1 in AUS 8 now

[@speekergeek]

Same here!

[@zhenbiaoli297]

Thank u for ur working.A small question：does the sheath of ur roach bell dull the edge？I have a peace maker 3 and cold steel says they have that infamous glass fiber secur-ex sheath,but I don't feel they actually have glass fiber sheath,and their edge will not dull by the sheath.

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome and mine does not dull the edge.

[@morayjames92]

D2 when well tempered is an excellent steel. Try an American made knife from Knives of Alaska (KOA) which are D2 and they heat treat it with the very best treat specialists others such as Paul Bos Heat Treat Services (Buck use the Bos system) are also first class. Don't dismiss D2 heat treating is an art and makes all the difference in the world.

[@TorlingJarl]

May I ask the exact differences between fine and working edge? Is it angle, grit, or otherwise?

[@Outpost_76]

Fine edge is the initial sharpness until it dulls enough to stop shaving hair. Working edge is the amount of cutting it does from that point until the knife no longer cuts 20 pound weight printer paper against the grain cleanly.

[@johnbowen5336]

D2 is like M390/20CV/204P: It requires a very specific set of temperatures and times during heat treat to get acceptable performance. Unfortunately, due to it's ridiculously large carbide structure, strop back is weak to non-existent.

[@jslaughterofthesoul4939]

Like the ubiquitous s35vn

[@EDCandLace]

What I have tested that their knives are fairly consistent between models is petrified fish. I've tested 7 knives from them in K110/D2 and each one of them tested all within 7% of each other as the extreme spread and standard deviation was 4%.

[@Outpost_76]

I'll have a couple more to run soon and find out how close they do.

[@ZakWilson]

Confirmed D2 hater here. My biggest problem with it is that it gets very chippy when run at a relatively acute angle (anything below 20 DPS). Since acute angles make a knife better at cutting, and better at staying usably sharp, I consider this a big fail. People who stick with obtuse factory angles may not notice D2's performance problems as readily.

[@lymedog3176]

I like AUS 10 a over all the steels mentioned but I like CTS BD1N a lot too… great edc steels, tough, easy sharpening and good edge retention. I also bought a rat 2 in d2… should of bought aus8…. But lesson learned!

[@TorlingJarl]

In your honest opinion, what would be the best, optimal budget steel fore a knife? Also, would you say that d2 is not good, or do you simply want to inform people of the other steels above it?

[@thepossum8569]

I found your analysis very interesting and felt the same - although I had no data to support my beliefs. In traditional knives I like Bucks. Have you had the opportunity to review their 420HC or 440 with BOS heat treat that snobs view as sub par?

[@Outpost_76]

Thank you and I have some 420 Buck testing in the works.

[@motomark9736]

Aus 8 and 440C were great stainless knife steels in the 1990s and still are when hardened right I have knives from back then that still perform great !!

[@KnifeWatch]

So, I’m not a steel snob yet, still learning-please tell me if I’m wrong: The moral of the story here is that D2 is inconsistent across the industry. D2 is typically better than Vg-10 and 8cr with a fine edge yet not nearly as quality as them with working edge. D2 can’t hold a candle to AUS 8.

[@Outpost_76]

That's it right there.

[@patrickfranklin3548]

New subscriber here. Congrats man that’s one of the best knife videos I’ve seen yet. Opened my eyes on a lot of things. Btw your right about the twosun 12c27 & 14c28n, have had great experience with both. Keep up the good work. Thanks again.

[@Outpost_76]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

[@megaronknives3032]

You are doing good work Sir. So the problem is D2, in it´s simple version, (not in it´s PM version) does have very large carbides, which can lead to chipping and deformation, the Chromium in the steel gets pulled into the carbides, so it´s not in the solution, which leads to less stain resistance, only about 6% of it´s Chromium from the total of about 11-12% is in the solution. Meaning neither is it good at corrosion resistance, nor is it good at thoughness. So i would prefer a more balanced steel in a budget knife every day of the week. Like you mentioned 12c27, 14C28N etc. all great choices for a steel in this or even higher price points.

[@jkstdstang]

I've been hearing people talk about this exact subject and your testing has blown me away! really an eye-opener and thank you for all the hard work you put in and for the video to share this wealth of info!

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome

[@joshuabriggs7114]

Totally concur. Even Benchmade D2 is nothing to write home about. Would prefer Aus8 over any D2 I've experienced. Another benefit is Aus8 is far tougher and less prone to cracking and chipping with abusive/hard use. As usual another great vid! Thanks G!

[@krazykat64]

My Tuff Lite has sat in my laundry room doing box cutting duty for years now. Can’t remember once being disappointed in it or thinking “Oh gosh, I should replace this”.

[@Outpost_76]

They really work very well for what they are. I enjoy mine.

[@esoteric5277]

I prefer to crush my soapboxes. Better to hold an edge and work on strength😜

[@user-wr6wo6vr8r]

I didn’t see a video on it but if you did can you put a link and if you didn’t could you make a video on the spyderco para 3 LW bd1n steel

[@Outpost_76]

I have one about 20 videos back or so.

[@Bushcraftandknives]

This is priceless, G! We can only hope that all this effort will stop some of the mindless regurgitation of established "truths" about different steels! When you see what Manly does with 12C27, why would you want D2 over 12C27? Sandviks steels are made for industrial heat treating and all manufacturers seems to do 12C27 and 14C28N well. Why would anyone make knives in D2, knowing that D2 is almost impossible to do well in an industrial production setting? Maybe we are to blame? The knife community has been very excited about D2 and almost demanded budget D2 knives. I clearly remember how much excitement there was for the R2D2 and the RAT1 in D2. Anyway, it's great to see you back in the saddle, G! 👍 Haven't been seeing much of Steve lately, hope he's all right!?

[@Outpost_76]

I agree with tou. Steve is doing well just busy with work and life.

[@bele28]

Nothing would be wrong with d2 if it performed as people expected it would. Would love to see d2 vs aus8 cutting a nail.. or something else nasty.. to see does d2 excel at really crappy jobs..

[@Outpost_76]

@@bele28 I can definitely make that happen. I'm curious to see what happens too. I have a good idea but I'll let the video speak as to the results.

[@bele28]

@@Outpost_76 awesome! I feel like along side abrasion resistance we need a simple mexhanically demanding test.. something to really stress out the steel matrix to the core and reveal "what it's made off".. nails are readily available.. lets see who did the tempering well and what steel holds its ground when pushed to more extreme tasks :D

[@chadrudolph1596]

@@bele28 Sling shot channel did aluminum and nail chopping tests.

[@insanogeddon]

How does Ka-Bar Dozier Design D2 from Taiwan go? If Buck managed big batch finesse treats Ka-Bar coold. I have 3 oft used D2 blades and the KBat Doz seems to be way better so keep using it even though dislike concave grinds, coatings, spear points, thumb studs that tear pockets and thumb studs that protrude over the working edge.

[@Outpost_76]

I don't know, I haven't tested one yet. I may get one to test once I get done with what is coming.

[@car350zmm]

Such an amazing video, thanks so much for all your effort on those cutting sessions and on demonstrating how good or bad steels perform. You have all my respect.

[@Outpost_76]

Thank you

[@earlscheib7754]

The Ganzo's gave an impressive showing.

[@motomark9736]

I love Ganzo 440C it performs great for me the way I sharpen it just works like any other good stainless does or better than some

[@carmelotansengco4605]

Thank you for this test. I'm really surprised at the results of AUS-8. I've heard nothing but bad stuff about it. Turns out it's much better than D2.

[@tukamaruetensi3952]

i dont know if anyone has the answer for this but is this true d2 thats just being mishandled by the importers or is this equelevent d2 ((other nations d2)) example c12mov or skd11

[@retardedbongo9681]

Just one quick question... Is AUS-8 better than 9Cr18M0V? I need help :

[@perplexingperceptions8888]

No, 9cr18mov is a little better & almost rust proof.

[@jermainesanchez713]

Ima be honest, I thought this was going to be a hate video because of the title. I was looking for data on D2 and what makes it so popular and decided to try youtube. I am so glad I didn't click away from your video cuz you created a gem of a spreadsheet and video, must have been super expensive and time consuming just to make it so I applaud and thank you for your effort :) and for showing us the truth behind marketing.

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome, I'm glad it was useful and helped you out. It has been a little expensive to build that data sheet and that's with many helping out with loaner knives to test.

[@itsaknifestyle8482]

When you lose all your arm hair, so you have to go to the paper test...😂

[@stevenlachance8576]

G what is your fine edge test hair or some kind of paper?

[@Outpost_76]

Arm hair and paper for working edge.

[@johnd9357]

56 minutes? This is gonna be a 2-cup of coffee video. Hell yeah.

[@GearedTowardGear1]

Thanks for sharing G. And thanks for taking the time so do all of this testing. I know how long it can take and that time is valuable, so thank you. I’m not surprised and was hoping to see results like this. BJ and I were talking just the other day about D2 vs. Sandvik steels and how I’m getting really tired of the vast majority of budget knives use D2. Thanks for contributing to the conversation with your tests and sharing of the results. 👊🏻👊🏻

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome, I appreciate you watching.

[@PaulK390S90V]

Really surprised of the aus-8 results...I've always hated the steel without ever giving it a chance. Wow. And D2 is led to be believed the upgraded version. Mind blown. Even til this day I still get a D2 knife sometimes if I really like the design. Damn. Of course I have tonnnsss of other steels, most of the top ones, but thats still surprising!

[@jamesbarry6248]

glad to see the BD1 steel did well ,just bought a spyderco cat and know nothing about BD1 steel.

[@johnscarborough4746]

My CS Roach Belly must be a bad one, I'm using it in the kitchen as well and it just doesn't hold an edge worth a poop. VG10 is still getting lots of use in the kitchen knife world, I've got a few made from it and I'm very happy with the performance. BTW you're sounding much better than your last video, glad you are feeling better.

[@Outpost_76]

Thanks John

[@spacelordvking8000]

Rope cutting test in D2 has much different results from your testing method . I mean look at Pete's rope cutting tests , D2 is way more officiant than VG10 , 4116, 12c27 and other budget steels in many tests that he did so far . What's your opinion about that ?

[@Outpost_76]

That is a good point. Rope also plays to geometry, any steel with thinner geometry will cut more rope but that same blade run against cardboard then regrind it thinner will have the same result. Rope plays more to chemistry and geometry with some heat treat to back it up. Cardboard plays on heat treat with a little chemistry to back it up. Alex Stiengraber has done many videos showing how drastic geometry is for rope cutting with many steels having a significant jump in performance after a regrind. As far as rope vs cardboard, I use cardboard because it shows what I see in use with these steels during my daily cutting.

[@hilltopknivesandgear8103]

You damn right brother G!!!! So stoked you put this video out!!! I agree with your statements 110% And I know your results are true! Mainly because I've gotten very Similar results numerous times! As a matter of fact I might piggy back off this video and go over a lot of my budget steel results. I Also want to test the 2 examples of 9cr18mov and see where it falls compared to the beloved D2! I agree that we need to move on from d2 there's so many better options out there in the same price range!!!! Thanks for all your hard work brother! And thanks for releasing this long overdue video! 🍻🍻🍻🍻

[@jonduncansakurawallknifegarden]

HILLtop knives and gear 9cr for the win. I live in Cali by the coast and I can’t leave my D2 unused and unpolished for more than 4 days or so before they rust. They rust fast and they spot and they chip and they’re cheap metal to produce and buy in bulk masses. I prefer 9cr and vg10 and just about anything above d2 as I was telling a friend who only uses kitchen knives and wonders why we use any kind of non stainless for a folding knife that sits in our pockets. I want stainless and I don’t mind a little softness so the edge will bend, rather than chip or break like a hard d2 does on me. I’m just over the rust issue and now I only keep what I absolutely have to keep or it will be forgotten about and left to rust by accident. I can’t keep up with all of the Chinese d2 I’ve been getting and I’m way more into a real true stainless like 14c28n. That steel, along with 9cr and VG10 (which is conisidered to be a golden standard in the kitchen knife world where we use our knives professionally - all we do is sharpen and cut in the prep cook world) and even that “budget steel” 8cr- I don’t mind it. I am against any d2 and have been for a while. I like it on a beater knife that I use for boxes and that never gets pocket time, but that’s the extent of my use for d2- cardboard and plastic toys and the dirtier things that I don’t want to get on my blades that I use for food purposes.

[@jdnotariano]

What this shows is that a finer grained stainless steel will wear less against cardboard than a large carbide tool steel like D2. The large carbide structure of D2 will likely still have an advantage against other materials such as rope, game hide, and meat, etc. I also agree that D2 is overused do to a marketing phenomenon. My point is don’t completely write off your knives in D2 as trash, they still have their advantages and are tougher than most stainless as well, especially when ran soft. I do fully agree that D2 is overused on budget china knives, but I still think of it as about as capable as something like 440c and a step ahead of the most budget stainless steels. Your observations on the ease and thus more consistent heat treatments of other steels does make sense. Good stuff.

[@ryanh6378]

The biggest surprise for me was the VG10 vs AUS8. I was shocked by the increase in performance of AUS8 and the consistency of the VG10 results from different companies. I'd like to see what a VG10 folder would do at 60 hrc

[@chimchu3232]

This is bizarre to me, I have several knives in d2, and I use them and sharpen them, and they are all fantastic. Hold an edge better than 8cr or 440, and I don't have any issues chipping. I like 8cr as well for a budget steel, there are always pros and cons to weigh out, but personally I'm going for d2 over anything else except 14c28n for budget steel.

[@M0N0T0N0US]

All the KZbin budget knife paper slicers love their D2!

[@Outpost_76]

Word

[@jslaughterofthesoul4939]

The greatest D2 I have experienced is the Harnfs' General and Warrior. PMI tests, torture tests are anomalous and torture tests/usage are elxtremely impressive and perhaps enchanted. Their 14C is on a much higher shelf than most, also, but would love to see an encompassing 14C standard video. Also N690. Yobotool has seemed to bring VG-10 to a new level. Cold Steel set a high bar for AUS-10(A), the only other frequent user that comes to mind is Kubey. Thanks v for your dedication

[@DallasDashcammer]

On recommendation, I bought a Ruike P841-L for $50 which has 14C28N. It turned me off to 14C28N because the edge rolled and chipped like crazy just cutting cardboard and stuff like that. Then everyone told it was the heat treat and not just the steel. I don't know how these Chinese companies do their heat treat but this was bad, and a reason I have stopped buying any Chinese made blades. I have a couple $20 D2 folders that I use frequently and they have done better than the Ruike 14C28N, but I know D2 is a low end steel and I don't expect much from it and I don't really buy blades with D2 anymore either.

[@KNOCkAROUNd511]

I have never had an issue with D2. My daily carry is a copper natrix in D2. On an average day I use it between 30 to 40 times a day and I have used it to pry on so many occasions and still have had no problem with the steel. It holds an edge for a long time. To be truthful I chose to carry D2 over all of my S35 and S30V all of the time.

[@SuperSteelSteve]

Cool story bro

[@mikafoxx2717]

Might have gotten the lucky heat treat then. D2 is super picky about hitting just the right temps and in mass production you get too many lemons.

[@andrewhaley8992]

Very informative video. I have the small Ganzo you showed, I carry it every day. I use it as my “beater” it has been a fantastic knife for the 9 dollars I paid for it. I have also had great results from the accoto 440. Most of my knives are sub 100 bucks, but they all get used. The tufflite is the only one you showed that I don’t own. It’s a small knife for me, but I may have to pick one up. Thanks for all the time you put into this. Subscribed.

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome and thank you

[@chillax1969]

Great work. I'll have to recalibrate D2 and Aus8. D2 performed much lower relatively than led to believe. Aus8 from Cold Steel and Ontario definately performed better than I expected relative to D2, VG10 and 440C. No surprise with 8Cr. Thanks.

[@49giants3]

Very interesting. Thanks for your hard work Outpost!

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome

[@paul_schuette]

I think for me personally, I have gotten away from 8Cr because I don’t like how quickly the fine edge disappears. Granted, I’m typically a very light user, so I can see how others could have a much different opinion. If I was using my knife enough in a day to degrade the edge to the end of the working life before being able to do maintenance at the end of the day, I might think differently. But as it stands, I really enjoy that initial, screaming sharp edge on any particular knife I’m using. I want to have the blade hold onto that as long as possible. I agree that 440c, Acuto440, etc. is fine in most instances. That being said, I still would roll the dice on D2 over 8Cr and hope that I get a good (or at least decent) example. Given the choice of one of the other steels you mentioned now that I know all of your test data, I would probably choose one of the other steels over either 8Cr or D2. Do you think other people’s love affair with D2 recently stems from them being light users like me that enjoy hanging onto that initial sharpness a bit longer? Great video, and that is again for all of the hard work in your testing. Glad your health has turned around some lately.

[@Outpost_76]

Thank you

[@luceatlux7087]

why do you think d2 underperforms??? it has a good profile (rough and from memory): 1.1 vanadium, 1.6 carbon, 1 cobalt (love this ingredient!) theoretically, it seems like it should be good stuff. do you think its the addition of some other ingredients, besides the ones listed, may be the culprit (like too much copper or nickel or something)?

[@MountainFisher]

D2 doesn't have cobalt. It does have close to one percent Vanadium.

[@luceatlux7087]

@@MountainFisher ty brother (sry for being an idiot.. i mean, rly, couldn't i have looked that up in a sec? no excuse)

[@MountainFisher]

@@luceatlux7087 I'm a heat treater and engineer AND biologist! LOL Cant know everything

[@luceatlux7087]

@@MountainFisher ...well, you, it seems, are almost there. geez.. here i was, happy with my accomplishments for having a high score in my video game...

[@MountainFisher]

@@luceatlux7087 I'm retired, but have experiments still floating in space

[@bubbapeppers4354]

A bit long, but excellent stuff... I mean excellent! I know there's not much interest in 8Cr, but I'd be surprised if more sampling didn't prove how poor that steel really is. It's easy to sharpen/strop no doubt, but my experience with 8Cr edge retention is pretty poor. The rest of the "budget" steels you showed are underrated, I agree.

[@andrewfournier8817]

Not fair; you included a Cold Steel- they give a damn about heat treatment and tempering :) Pete's Cold Steel AUS10 testing on Cedric and ADA came out about 2x as good as VG10 from other makers, for example. So ofc a Cold Steel Aus 8 looks weirdly better than so many "better" steels.

[@packinaglock]

Don't own any D2, doesn't look like I'm missing anything.

[@michaelshuey1614]

I’m glad you differentiated between imported D2 and good D2. Thank you.

[@Outpost_76]

With the PMI scans Kurt did and the ones LTK continued with the overseas D2 varies so much. The really bad ones are very light on the mixture and I'm sure that's why they don't perform as well. Some of the better done D2 does as well as S30V in testing and use. I really think they mix their own in some of these countries and don't have the best quality control to make a solid steel.

[@mattharvey968]

I have the Ganzo FH51 and the Rat1 in Aus8, nice to see they perform well considering the price point! And that Tangram Acuto 440 seems to have good numbers compared to other steels.

[@jeffgrove1389]

Please relate what your approx edge angles are.

[@Outpost_76]

All testing is done at 15 dps unless stated in the video.

[@gabeeg]

I do not test my knives and I do not usually spend money on todays fancy steel of choice. My favorite steel based only on my everyday use experience of edge, edge retention and ease of sharpening is Sandvik 14C28N. Used to be it was on a lot of reasonably priced knives (i.e. Kershaw for example). I am also a fan of AUS-8 (which a number of years ago was the darling of reasonably priced good steels and but now it is not so popular). I just bought my first D2 knife (Civivi Elementum), love the knife fit and finish. After a couple weeks of light use, still razor sharp, but way to early to tell how it compares to my favorite Sandvik 14C28N in my use cases. Sounds like lots of the mass manufacturing does not get the heat treat right for D2 or is weakening the steal during sharpening (burning). It is a well know, around forever tool steel...I would expect better. I know custom makers have made well regarded D2.

[@Outpost_76]

D2 is meant for small batch and custom use. The temperature window is so small there is no way for mass production to do a good heat treat on D2. I want everyone to know its not the awesome budget steel its made out to be. Sandvik is made for large production knife making and its a way better choice. I'd love to hear what you think about D2 after you get some more use in with it. Thanks for watching, i appreciate it.

[@mikafoxx2717]

So essentially, D2 needs the cost to get a good heat treatment, but even better would be to spend the extra on steel that's far more tolerant to a less perfect heat treat that still performs well. I love 12c27, 14c28n, and Nitro-V. Can't really tell them apart in use, the edge geometry difference covers up any perception.@@Outpost_76

[@DavidNefelimSlayer]

My experience is the Seki VG 10 and the Chinese 8Cr13MoV are optimized in their Spyderco configurations. Perhaps they just have figured out how to mass produce a quality pocket knife. The S30V from Spyderco seems good. $ for quality= value, I enjoy all the technical jargon and testing and as a base line I don't think you can explain value without being able to explain some of the technical and practicals. Hyperbole is good for some, like that guy that sounds like Danny Devito, the reviews are so subjective and girlish that even though I like the knife porn the approach is simply frivolous. So I appreciate your efforts.

[@OwlskiTV]

Surprised to see how well Aus8 handled, though I suppose a proper heat treatment is crucial which is why we even see variance in the same steels across different companies. Makes me wonder though; You mentioned at 12:04 Aus10, but didn't cover it in the test. Would be curious how Aus10 faired.

[@Outpost_76]

I have a current video of Aus-10 and I have 2 more coming from a different company.

[@OwlskiTV]

@@Outpost_76 Thanks for the heads up, will check it out!

[@kraftzion]

D2 is one of the few steels I won't purchase again but for different reasons than wear resistance. I don't like the way it rusts and I don't think it takes/keeps a fine edge. My only example is a benchmade so I assume of decent quality. I don't mind surface rust to much but mine seems to rust in some areas and not in others setting up galvanic cells that would create pits if not tended to. Although I like to watch videos like these wear resistance is the quality of least concern to me. Even when I am using a knife heavily it will never get to the working edge state before I take a couple of seconds to touch it up.

[@TheArtOfRuse]

So I’ve been eyeing a CRKT Deadbolt but most come with 1.4116 steel. And everyone and their mother is complaining and then they release more this year in the same steel.. any though in the steel? And it’s prince range of about $90-$120 with a deadbolt locking knife. Great videos keep it up man! Stay sharp

[@Outpost_76]

For that money you are paying for the lock. I haven't tested 4116 from CRKT but I doubt it's better than any other out there enough to justify that price.

[@TheArtOfRuse]

Outpost 76 that’s what I was thinking I really wish they would back up that lock with a premium steel. I was eying the cold steel recon 1 clip point in copper and of green from blade HQ. But I do wanna get my hands on a deadbolt. But I can spend the same on each knife lol damn the hobby is crazy lol

[@OLMmedic]

I like crkt’s aus8. I also like byrds 8cr but strangely enough dont like spydercos examples of 8cr and not sure why the disparities since they are the same company.

[@chrisjosekuehl]

Heat treat, grind and grind angle all account for cutting performance. It would be great include grind info along with steel info.

[@stevenlachance8576]

Looks like hair from review of cutting. But is it hair cutting with one stroke or any hair cutting?

[@Outpost_76]

Its shaving, if it's not clean fine edge us down. In other words no scrape shaving.

[@bele28]

Why not mention sanrenmu sandvik result for budget steels? Maybe test all steels from them to see if they all overperform, or if it was another anomaly. But they do cryo treat their sandvik.. that might explain m390 performance in a 15$ knife..

[@Outpost_76]

I just wanted to include a range of D2 and a range of other budget type steels. Nothing wrong with that Sanrenmu Sandvik I tested.

[@Howardsheppard]

Thank you for all the hard work and time in compiling this info!

[@Outpost_76]

You're welcome

[@experienceprecision5406]

Steels get reps from guys who want to justify there spending habits instead from them testing like you and that's just a fact. Thank you for this. A guy in a garage working with a good hi carbon steel that $100 blade will be just as good or better then a $400 "Super steel" production knife.

[@randomamerican471]

I recently bought a D2 steel 4 mm thick knife blank on Ebay. It is supposed to be hardened to 58-60 HRC. But I have easily cut a 1/4 x 6 inch section from the handle portion of the blank with a cutoff wheel. And filed that smooth using a Husky file set purchased from Home Depot. This is my first knife build. So it didn't occur to me right away. That something might be wrong here. But it seems to me that I shouldn't be able to do this at all. If this were tempered D2 steel. Can anyone with knowledge of D2 tool steel help me out with this?

[@Outpost_76]

If the file digs in to the material instead of skating across the surface then it hasn't been heat treated yet. Take a cheap knife you have or one you don't mind beating up on and lightly run a file across the spine on a known hardened steel and you will know then if the blank you picked up is hardened or not.

[@MountainFisher]

When you ground the section out you completely annealed the edges and would easily be able to file a burned re-tempered edge. An abrasive cutting wheel will cut through any knife steel and ruin it. This "expert" should have told you that.

[@krustysurfer]

Awesome work thank you! However for less than $30 to your door D2 is just fine if done well properly heat treated. Great data list.... And that Rat 1CF D2 is probably how D2 gained fame and lore, its a great low budget entry steel for beating on.

[@JustIn-op6oy]

The more steel testing I get into, the more it bears out my idea that a lot of people who become steel snobs got at least some of their negative experiences from crap knife makers. It wasn't the steel that was a bad choice, it was the fact they screwed the pooch on their heat treat somewhere along the way.

[@johnnybobo1176]

Okay cool vid, but......There are so many variables in testing steel.. The angle of sharpening, the angle of your test cut, the force of each cut, the resistance of the medium you're cutting though...etc. Sure, maybe D2 is overrated, but you can't ignore the Rockwell hardness test on these comparable steels. Granted, there are also many variables in the manufacturing process and some makers may be better than others (foreign and domestic). The long and the short in my opinion is that you have to go with the rockwell scale when comparing hardness and therefore edge retention. Let me know what you think.

[@Outpost_76]

With few exceptions the angles tested are always 15 dps. The sharpening grit us the same 1500 and all are stropped the same way. The media cut is always the same, I went as far as testing different cardboard crush weights to see how close they were. The ones in the 30-36 pound crush weight all produced results on the same knife within 3 %. That video is here on my channel. Cardboard is not a binding material and I keep the force as even as possible as well as the speed I cut with each knife. The Rockwell testing just gives the hardness, it does not tell us how the matrix is in the particular blade. The edge retention testing gives an idea of how well the structure was formed during the heat treat process. That's why some 60 hrc M390 does well and most does not. I have a good example of this coming up where I'll compare the 62 hrc M390 PM2 to a custom 62 hrc M390. This will show how even at the same hardness the micro structure plays a huge part in how a steel performs from sharpening to cutting use. While the Rockwell hardness is a good data point to have the cutting tells the rest of the story. Juat as geometry doesn't play a part in edge retention testing on cardboard since it's a non binding material. The hardness plays a part as well as composition but how the steel got there is the most important. I'll have some more on this coming up.

[@perplexingperceptions8888]

I bought the RAT1 D2 with a blade & carbon fiber scales three years ago & I've had some light chipping & rolling after cutting some hard plastic zip-ties, same thing happened with Spyderco's S30V, but never with Buck's 420hc.

[@herbertgearing1702]

Brous blades does a good job with d2 Bob Dozier does a fantastic job with it. D2 is not meant for mass production but if you figure it out you really get a great knife with an inexpensive steel.

[@kknives_switzerland]

What else to expect from a steel with 50 micron big hard phases. Even with maximum refinement (which requires a lot of time and therefore, money) D2 will still be limited by its chemical composition and just cannot keep up with most other budget steels, let alone anything of higher quality... And "Why D2" you ask? Answer: It is dead cheap. Hardens easily. Is available. No wonder many companies (and also makers) are pushing it...

[@leotam3372]

People think they're getting a good deal with "modern D2" - pre the Chinese maker explosion, D2 was considered a mid/high level steel (I think only Queen and BM offered it as a production) and held it's own around when S30V was gaining popularity - granted, people weren't doing cut tests etc back then, so it might have been more reputation than truth

[@MountainFisher]

@@leotam3372 yeah, that's why I made power planer blades out of it. How consistent is the cardboard they use? Is it recycled or virgin? It makes a difference if you get it from a different manufacturer. Cardboard isn't a consistent medium unless you source it from the same company like Pete's sisal rope. Do you always cut with the grain or against the grain of the cardboard, one way is almost half as much as the other. Scientific? Hardly. Since the 1960s D2 has had a good reputation until it is made of Chinesium steel.

[@trollmcclure1884]

What about Bestech Kendo?

[@djmblades4124]

G...the man...so happy to see you feeling better my brother. Great vid, sorta knew that was gonna play out that way. Could be why I only own 1 knife in D2. The Ganzo FH21 and I never use it 🙈. Thank you for everything you do G, so very much appreciated. 🙌🙏🍺🍻 I'm 100% with you on Ontario Rat1 aus8 and that Endura vg10. That Spyderco vg10 just loves to strop back. I have the Desert Camo one that used to be Kurt's.

[@william1973ist]

I think these tests/results/commentary tell people WILLING to listen can come to a serious conclusion about user knives and what they're willing to invest. I bought a Kershaw knockout in M390 because I could sample the steel at a good price. Works well and holds an edge much longer. As we've seen, is it worth going over the $200 price point for? Not really, even the $150 mark is questionable.

[@jslaughterofthesoul4939]

Kershaw's 20CV link is an awesome deal and a soldier. Have a 20CV Bareknuckle, M4 Blur, and had done of the M390 runs. The treatment on all of their 20Cv/M390/M4 and efficacy are on point, very b well done, but they go away and get expensive. I have boughtultiple 20CV Links for $50ish bucks. Recommend it. 62-63 HRC

[@P1015532oni]

Hey mate, thank you for your extensive testing on several samples. I’ve never been interested in D2 because I live within a mile from the pacific ocean. Very hot and humid. BUT when I became curious about the Ontario Rat 2 (for some reason this is the one “go-to” knife that people rave about that I was yet to own), every single one of the “who’s who” of the internet knife community are basically telling their audience that AUS-8 RATs are crap. They are, in essence, saying that it’s D2 or bust. I also never understood the hate for AUS-8 as I have a Cold Steel Tuff Lite as a work box-cutter and it had performed exceptionally in my personal experience. But what do I know compared to the KZbin experts, right? So, because of the knife community’s peer pressure, I almost bought a RAT 2 in D2 today, thinking that the extra bit of maintenance will be worth it for what I’d get in improved performance. But thanks to your video, I ended up ordering the RAT 2 in AUS-8 instead.